Saved by the Stuff of Grace

I can think of few phrases in modern Christian speech that have been more abused through misuse and overuse than “we are saved by grace.” As a young Protestant, this was explained to me thus: “We are saved by God’s unmerited favor.” This has the unfortunate implication that, whatever salvation may be, it’s something that’s happening in the mind of God – His unmerited favor. It strikes me as somewhat empty.

Its emptiness belongs to that nefarious doctrine (as I would describe it) of the Penal Substitutionary Atonement (PSA), in which God’s justice demands our condemnation, while God’s mercy demands the blood of Jesus. All of which, it would seem, leaves us as bystanders in a cosmic court where the eternal disposition of our wretched souls is worked out.

In Orthodox understanding (which is the understanding of the early Church), grace is ever so much more. Indeed, grace is the Divine Energies, the very life of God. I have given this article the title, “Saved by the Stuff of Grace,” to draw attention to the ontological character of grace. Grace is not an aspect of a Divine psychology. Grace is the very life of God. We are saved by becoming partakers in the life of God: He becomes what we are that we might become what He is – i.e., that we might dwell in Him and He in us.

I want to look at two very important aspects of the “stuff of grace” in our lives, things that, again, we easily mistake for matters of psychology or moral performance. The first is love, and the second is humility.

I begin with a quote from the contemporary saint, Gabriel Urgebadze (+1995):

In the end times, a man will be saved by love, humility, and kindness. Kindness will open the gates of heaven; humility will lead him into heaven; a man whose heart is filled with love will see God.

We read these words and think we know what they mean. We hear that right behavior (love, humility, kindness) will be rewarded. Our hearing is attuned to the language of merit, of reward and punishment. What is instead taking place is an invitation into the very life of God, Who Himself is love, humility, and kindness, the “stuff” of grace.

Consider this wonderful excerpt from a talk by St. Sophrony of Athos/Essex:

…through small deeds we set out upon the path of love for Christ. And the love of Christ – of which St. Silouan did not dare to sing, as being above every mind and every word – of this love of Christ we say that it proceeds from God Who is humble. Speaking in the language of Holy Scripture, we may say that “God is humility” (cf. 1 Jn 4:8). And to the humble God belongs humble love, not a love from on high.

And when we speak of such humility, we are speaking also of self-emptying. The humble love of God – because He is humble – makes love kenotic. God, Who by His Word, created all that is, became incarnate and lived, humbling Himself unto limits beyond our reach. This is the mark of the love of God: it is self-emptying, kenotic. Thus the Lord, that His word might be received, before His crucifixion on Golgotha washed the feet of His disciples and said: “I have given you an example, that you also should do as I have done to you.” (John 13:15)

In human love there is one love which, more than all other human expressions, draws near to this kenotic, Divine love – and this is the love of a mother: she endures all things from her little child; she is ready for every form of service to her infant, however humiliating. This is the kenotic love of a mother. And so the Lord humbles Himself before us as a mother before her child. If He had appeared to us in His might, we would have been afraid to approach Him, afraid even to look upon Him. But so as not to terrify man, He took upon Himself our bodily being, our existence – in other words, our “being”… And behold, when for the love of Christ we are suddenly filled with the vision of the majesty of Divine humility, then the seal of God is set upon us, and our life may become holy and full of majesty, despite all its servile forms in which this kenosis – this self-emptying – is expressed …

“God is humility,” St. Sophrony says, in the same manner that we can say, “God is love.” When we see Christ on the Cross, we see the very love of God, the utter humility of God, in its revelation to us. Our own actions of humility (self-emptying) and love are not merely moral – they are a participation and communion in the life of God.

And this is equally an expression of being “saved by grace.” Our actions of self-emptying and love are synergistically the actions of the grace of God. St. Paul succinctly says, “Christ within you, the hope of glory.” (Col. 1:27) Christ-within-you is not a moral principle, nor does it mean “trying to act like Christ.” It is a description of walking/acting in union with Christ.

By grace, through grace, in grace, God self-empties Himself in me that I might empty myself in Him. By grace, through grace, in grace, God loves in me that I might love in Him.

St. Sophrony cites the profound example of the self-emptying love of mother and infant. It is a recognition not only of the mother’s actions, but of the grace of God that indwells her and is present with her in those actions. We may rightly say that “motherhood is holy.” We can also extend this observation towards other examples of self-emptying.

St. John says in his wonderfully simple language: “Beloved, let us love one another, for love is of God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God. He who does not love does not know God, for God is love.” (1 John 4:7–8)

In his gentle way, St. Sophrony says: “…through small deeds we set out upon the path of love for Christ.” Indeed.

About Fr. Stephen Freeman

Fr. Stephen is a retired Archpriest of the Orthodox Church in America. He is also author of Everywhere Present: Christianity in a One-Storey Universe, and Face to Face: Knowing God Beyond Our Shame, as well as the Glory to God podcast series on Ancient Faith Radio.



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42 responses to “Saved by the Stuff of Grace”

  1. Ben Avatar
    Ben

    Wonderful, Father!

    So, one mustn’t do the humility thing, but become humility? Would letting go of our selves (and our neuroses) be the self emptying by which we become – or meet – humility? (That would be near impossible, it oftentimes seems :))

  2. Fr. Stephen Avatar

    Ben,
    One way to think about humility is to understand it as “bearing a little shame” (healthy shame, not toxic shame). This follows the teaching of St. Sophrony. In my book on shame (Face to Face: Knowing God Beyond Our Shame), I focus on this a good bit.

    I think what is important, after a fashion, is to understand that we’re not just trying to behave in a certain way, but are, in fact, becoming our true self. I also would emphasize that we learn to do this a little at a time…in small ways. If a person has experienced toxic shaming – this is quite difficult.

    It’s good to have the companionship of a good spiritual father for such things. And if it is “near impossible” – then don’t push it too much. I think that a start, of sorts, is just beginning to understand that God Himself is humility. It has helped me more than once to do the impossible. I still shudder. 🙂

  3. Ben Avatar
    Ben

    Ha! Thank you, Father, I feel encouraged!

  4. Ook Avatar
    Ook

    “saved by God’s unmerited favor”
    And I’m sure that there would be some in the parish who, hearing this from the preacher, would quietly think “unmerited for you maybe, but entirely merited for me, thank you very much.”

  5. Fr. Stephen Avatar

    Ook,
    Perhaps so. I’ve met any number of people who, being generally “nice” sorts of people, feel that they merit some kind of reward. That, I think, is part of the sad baggage of the whole juridical worldview.

  6. Dee of Sts Herman and Olga Avatar
    Dee of Sts Herman and Olga

    Father,
    Unfortunately, humility is not held as a virtue in American culture. Instead, it is pride and even outward shows of vanity. In this ethos, it is difficult to grow accustomed to the God of Eastern Orthodoxy, who asks us to be humble as He is. Such theology and the ethos of life in the Eastern Orthodox Church ways make us Americans, if not greatly, a little uncomfortable. Thus, the appreciation of the slow and patient absorption of the stuff of grace, which you aptly describe as “marination,” needs to be cultivated in person, in Liturgy, in humility and love.–It’s not something you can order online.

  7. Fr. Stephen Avatar

    Dee,
    Particularly if humility is understood as “bearing a little shame.” It is what Adam and Eve refused to do as they sought to hide their nakedness. Human beings find this very difficult. I think that it is not just America, but perhaps all cultures, tend towards pride, towards a self-sufficiency and towards stories that are self-exalting.

    But, America (the US) does not have a good story of bearing shame. We find losing to be intolerable. My native South, that famously lost a war, long cultivated a culture that refused to acknowledge defeat – and even refused to acknowledge the sin of its past.

    The cycle of stories in the Old Testament – good kings/bad kings – are a cycle that swings between humility and pride – pride comes with the worship of false gods rather than the humility that recognizes the truth of the One true God.

    The Orthodox life, in which Confession/absolution/communion play such a central part – is a discipline that, rightly practiced, takes us again and again into the difficulty nakedneess of our sin. We learn to turn away from the false clothing of fig leaf-pride and to accept the true clothing of the righteousness of Christ. I believe it is the only path to the true self – the path that takes us “beyond our shame” and to the Face of the True God.

  8. Dee of Sts Herman and Olga Avatar
    Dee of Sts Herman and Olga

    Beautifully said Father!

  9. Nikolaos Avatar
    Nikolaos

    “Marynation” would be necessary for our Protestant brethren willing to convert to Orthodoxy

  10. Mallory Avatar
    Mallory

    Thank you, Fr. Stephen.

    I am currently reading Paul for the first time and I’m wondering why he never mentions Jesus’s miracles, parables or Mary?

    Also, I left a comment on your earlier post but am wondering if maybe you missed it.

    Thank you, as always.

  11. Dee of Sts Herman and Olga Avatar
    Dee of Sts Herman and Olga

    Nikolaos,
    Indeed!
    Thank you so much for your suggested readings on the Theotokos! I’m reading both slowly and deeply for a thorough Marynation. Both are edifying and warm the heart so much for her. Glory to God for her humble and gentle reception of the annunciation, and of her giving of her heart mind and body to the grace of God. Indeed she is the Mother of us all, as she is the Mother of God.

  12. Fr. Stephen Avatar

    Mallory,
    It’s interesting – but St. Paul’s letters were written before any of the gospels were written (as far as we can tell). He seems to know some version of an “oral tradition” of the gospel – he has quotes that are just the same as the gospels – but he writes in a context in which other things seem to be more dominant in the conversation. His letters are often written to address particular problems in the various churches: the problem of gentile inclusion (should they be circumcised? Nope); problems of church discipline (his letters to the Corinthian Churches); and a bit of general teaching on salvation (Romans, Galatians).

    Instead, what you see is a lot of quoting of Isaiah, the Psalms, etc. When he says “the Scriptures” he means what we mean by the Old Testament.

  13. Dee of Sts Herman and Olga Avatar
    Dee of Sts Herman and Olga

    “Christ within you, the hope of glory.” (Col. 1:27) Christ-within-you is not a moral principle, nor does it mean “trying to act like Christ.” It is a description of walking/acting in union with Christ.

    Father, bearing a little shame in the sacrament of confession/absolution and communion, sometimes seems to be (or can be) interpreted as a moral get-out-of-jail process. The confession itself can be seen as an admission of wrongdoing before the court (the juridical perspective that is infused in Western culture). What I have appreciated is what is said in the prayers of the priest in confession, because we both stand before God.

    Also, I’m not sure how to express this, but the holy spirit and the grace of God is not modular, i.e., arriving in units depending on a person’s goodness. I’m a sinner, and constantly sin despite myself, knowing that I fail and even push against God (avoiding shame, assuming pride). Yet I have also known the Grace of God in the midst of my sinful condition, bringing tears of grief and gratitude.

  14. Mark Spurlock Avatar
    Mark Spurlock

    Mallory,

    As a layman, I do not find it odd. Paul did not observe any of the miracles or hear any of the parables firsthand. (He does testify to the miracle of the Resurrection–having seen the risen Christ–and the miracles involving his personal conversion.) He did not know Mary. Presumably, he had very little to do with Christians before his conversion other than to persecute them, and even then Ananias is reluctant to visit Paul for fear of what might happen. If Stephen’s martyrdom is an example of the Christian trials Paul saw, then he would have learned little about the subjects you mention from witnessing those.

    The oral tradition that Father Stephen describes as available to Paul, therefore, might have been limited in its biographical content. I would guess that when the disciples preached the Gospel they focused on Christ as the promised Messiah and “instruction” (e.g. loving your neighbor, forgiveness, the Beatitudes, etc.). Recall that they also often had trouble themselves understanding the parables unless the parables were explained to them. And telling an audience secondhand of a miracle such as feeding a crowd with fishes is not as persuasive as performing a miracle before their eyes.

    Moreover, Paul was a Pharisee writing letters, rather than an orator in front of a crowd. I find it very natural that the form his rhetoric takes would be dissimilar to Christ’s and the Gospels. Acts 13:26-41 provides an example of Paul’s oratory, and I’m guessing it’s modeled on what he had heard from the Disciples.

  15. Matthew Avatar
    Matthew

    About violence and inappropriate behavior in the Bible, particularly the Old Testament:

    I think it´s perfectly normal when someone reads the Old Testament for the first time (or even more than the first time) to be horrified and shocked by what they find there in some of the verses and stories.

    As a Protestant, for many years I searched and searched for answers to these questions outside the fundamentalism that I was reared in. I learned a lot and there are many resources out there that one can easily find which helps struggling people work through these issues.

    It seems that God lets his people tell their story within their cultural situation and context — and then God reveals his goodness through all that. Also, doesn´t it seem “more real” and less fantasy-like to tell a story of humanity and humanity´s relationship with God in a way that humanity generally moves and operates in this fallen world?

    Finally, maybe it´s important to note that a literal reading of the texts will yield a character of God not at all consistent with God as revealed in Jesus Christ. We really have to wrestle with those difficult words and stories in the Old Testament in order to find God´s goodness there.

    Lots more could of course be said about all this.

  16. Fr. Stephen Avatar

    Mallory, Mark,
    Mark’s answer is excellent as is Matthew’s on the OT. Thank you all!

  17. Mallory Avatar
    Mallory

    Thank you Fr. Stephen, Mark and Matthew.

    I’m still not convinced by anything I’ve heard about the cruelty of the God of OT, but I do have faith I will be led to truth, so I keep seeking.

    Blessing to all.

  18. Matthew Avatar
    Matthew

    Mallory said:

    “I’m still not convinced by anything I’ve heard about the cruelty of the God of OT, but I do have faith I will be led to truth, so I keep seeking.”

    I encourage you, Mallory, to continue to press into the Word of God (Jesus Christ) and His Church. It is there where a sacramental and liturical life will strengthen you to see Holy Scripture in a way that reveals the truth you are looking for.

    It has been wonderful to engage (if only electronically) with your journey as you have shared it in this space. Be blessed and keep moving forward.

  19. Fr. Stephen Avatar

    Mallory,
    There are any number of scandalous images of God in the OT. This was recognized by the early Church fathers from the very beginning. Indeed, it comes up in the gospels.

    “Now it came to pass, when the time had come for Him to be received up, that He steadfastly set His face to go to Jerusalem,and sent messengers before His face. And as they went, they entered a village of the Samaritans, to prepare for Him.But they did not receive Him, because His face was set for the journey to Jerusalem.And when His disciples James and John saw this, they said, “Lord, do You want us to command fire to come down from heaven and consume them, just as Elijah did?”
    But Jesus turned and rebuked them, and said, “You do not know what manner of spirit you are of.For the Son of Man did not come to destroy men’s lives but to save them.” And they went to another village.” Luke 9:51-56

    The Orthodox Christian teaching is that Christ is Himself the key for reading the OT – He is the meaning and fulfillment of the Scriptures. And, in some cases, He is the “correction” of the OT. He is the correct lens for understanding.

    Our Protestant culture tends to exalt the Scriptures above everything – but makes a mistake in doing this. The OT is “Scripture” as it is read and interpreted in the Church – it does not stand alone as a text that is self-interpreting.

  20. Dee of Sts Herman and Olga Avatar
    Dee of Sts Herman and Olga

    Father and Mallory,
    What Father says about the scripture and particularly the OT is not only a historical view point but as far as I can see is taught broadly in Orthodox catechism. Or catechumens are emphatically taught not to take all scripture literally. Attending church services also provides lessons on the interpretation of scripture through hymns that are also written to teach. Therefore Orthodox hymns do not have the same content in many respects as hymns in Protestant churches.

    As a catechumen I asked my priest how to interpret the Bible. Asking questions is important because the Orthodox ethos is ultimately eastern culture and theology. And westerners need to be taught how to understand meanings. It has deep mysticism and layers that ought not and should not be taken superficially. If fact this how even life itself is. Taking the superficial approach robs us of the fullness of life itself.

  21. Dee of Sts Herman and Olga Avatar
    Dee of Sts Herman and Olga

    Meant to say: In fact this is how life is— sorry for the many typos. Typing on my phone again. My sincere apologies.

  22. Dee of Sts Herman and Olga Avatar
    Dee of Sts Herman and Olga

    Mallory,
    I sincerely appreciate your open honesty about what you accept and what you do not accept. This, to me, is an authentic way to approach Orthodoxy. We do not believe a person becomes Orthodox by persuasion. The Orthodox, in fact, believe that if a person is convinced by persuasion, their faith will likely be weak. Instead, I’ve heard it expressed that we ‘woo,’ which is to say that we want people to enter the Church not through their minds, but through their hearts. And that the driving force of the heart-felt attraction is to Christ Himself.

    Because there has been such an ethos in the West to describe God’s wrath and using His Son as the substitute to execute His judgmental wrath upon, I had no interest in Christianity whatsoever for most of my life (about 40 years in the ‘desert’) until recently (about 13 years ago is “recent” to this old woman).

    There are ample good reasons for you not to like what you read in the Bible, given the typical interpretations we are provided.

    Christ Himself alludes to the deeper meanings in the OT. He could have referred to the story of Jonah as a historical event, but instead He refers to it as a “sign”. He doesn’t explain in detail what he means. But often his disciples ask him for explanations because they clearly don’t get what he’s saying. And if we are honest, neither do we if we take everything literally.

    I have a commentary of the Bible, in it John Chrysostom mentions a deeper meaning in the story of Lot as an indication that there is an ‘under layer’. His interpretation suggests that he is using Lot’s actions as an analogy and comparison to our own lives in Christ. Chrysostom lived from 347 to 407 — I mention this to indicate how long these interpretative approaches have been held in the history of the Orthodox Church. He also insists that violent passages in the Psalms are about our temptations and how to deal with them (e.g., with regard to smashing babies’ heads–the initial stages of temptations).

    I hope that what I might do next is to present some tools to help with the interpretation of the specific text you mention. I will be brief, but I will elaborate later if what I say here seems too terse.

    We need to interpret the OT through Christ’s messages because He says they speak of Him and of our relationship to Him. So here I expand on His symbols he uses in His parables.

    Lot’s house:
    Christ uses the analogy of the house built on rock vs those that are not, which are subject to ‘outside’ forces that will break it down
    Lot’s door: Christ uses the shut door parable, where He enters (the soul) with prepared (lighted lamps–metanoia and life in Christ) virgins (the pure in heart). Another parable/symbol of the door: “I am the door of the sheep. All who came before Me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not listen to them. I am the door. If anyone enters through Me, he will be saved. He will come in and go out and find pasture.”
    Lot’s daughters:
    Daughters, who are they in human history? Here are ideas: progenitors, potentially fruit-bearing for the continued life of the family and sustenance for the family, maintaining the dignity and fullness of life for her children and her children’s children:
    By parable and analogy, the daughters of the soul are the actions and fruit of one’s own life and wellbeing. But these daughters, rather than patiently and humbly waiting for the Lord’s mercy, resorted to their own devices and management of their circumstances, and unfortunately, tainted themselves through their passions and personal defilement. Their fruit ended up being “not of Israel,” ie, not the children of God, or in other words, not a life lived in God.

    Last, what about Lot offering His daughters instead of the men (the Orthodox believe them to be the Holy Trinity) within His “house”? Daughters, in this case, are what we hold dear and want for ourselves: a good home, a couple of cars, great food, in other words, whatever we conceive of as pleasurable and good and even necessary for a ‘good’ worldly life. This action of offering ” worldly daughters” is an example of ascetism, willing to give up worldly ways, anything that would keep us from living with and giving our life to and in God.

    Notice, however, that the “holy men” prevented Lot from doing this. Instead, they blinded the perpetrators (the works of the Adversary), such that they “could not find the door” (the door of the soul).

    Then they proceeded to guide Lot (and his daughters) to a pasture, where again Lot asked to be guided to a different place, and the ‘holy men’ conceded to his wishes. They were all led by God at this point, and then the daughters diverged afterward–a condition of all of us. Thus again and again we might fail. But as the Lord said about our salvation, all things are possible in and with Him, if we ask in humility and love.

    Last, I’ll say a few words about Buddhism. I don’t know that much about it. I tried to read a few Buddhist texts, but it was apparent that there were references that were meaningful to a culture different from the one in which I grew up. One thing that pops out immediately is the use of cremation and even chopping up human bodies to feed birds. You don’t see this in Orthodoxy because we have a belief in the wholeness (or a wholistic approach) of the body and soul. For example, the “heart” is both the bodily organ and the spiritual organ. Even after we die and the soul may leave the body, however, the body retains its marks (so to speak by analogy) as the former ‘house’ of the soul. And the body as well as the soul is considered holy, and together, they are reunited in the eschaton, and yet the body will be different, perhaps like that of Christ at the Transfiguration.

  23. Dee of Sts Herman and Olga Avatar
    Dee of Sts Herman and Olga

    Ok after having said what I just wrote to Mallory, I do remember that the have saint’s relics and that we divide them and give them to parishes and monasteries. Is this correct, Father? Will you provide some explanation of our veneration of relics?

  24. Dee of Sts Herman and Olga Avatar
    Dee of Sts Herman and Olga

    Here’s the result of a quick search online:
    https://www.saintjohnchurch.org/why-orthodox-christians-venerate-relics/

    I’m going to stop writing now. Please forgive me if my words are unhelpful.

  25. Margaret Sarah Avatar
    Margaret Sarah

    Sorry for jumping in here, but I tend to relate deeply to what Mallory is expressing.

    Thank you for the thoughts, Dee! I’m always happy to read your posts and learn more from your gracious, thoughtful, and perceptive way of approaching faith.

    Matthew said: “Finally, maybe it’s important to note that a literal reading of the texts will yield a character of God not at all consistent with God as revealed in Jesus Christ.” For me, this is precisely the issue. Taken in tandem with the “contradictory” nature of faith that Father often writes of, why shouldn’t we just accept that God is both cruel and barbaric as well as merciful and loving? If we accept that Christ is both God and Man, if we are willing to take the contradictions of Scripture with faith, why draw the line when it gets uncomfortable or we judge it unfit?

    I really want to square this circle, but I just can’t. I understand that the hymnography and liturgy helps to “course-correct”, but honestly I find a lot of troubling statements in the hymns as well.

  26. Matthew Avatar
    Matthew

    Hello Margaret Sarah.

    I look forward to Fr. Stephen´s response to your observations and questions. For me, I would counter by asking, if Jesus Christ is the fullest expression of God the Father in all ways (as Colossians teaches us), why then during his earthy ministry did he never show Himself to be cruel and barbaric (well … he did turn over the tables in the temple courts, but I hardly see this action as cruel and barbaric)?

    I think this all has to do with a gross misunderstanding of the Old Testament coupled with certain toxic western theological theories. On the Road to Emmaus (Luke 24), Jesus showed them Himself in the Hebrew Scriptures. I don´t think he showed them the barbaric and the horrible and the cruel (though I am open to correction).

    In Isaiah 61 it is written:

    “The Spirit of the Sovereign Lord is on me,
    because the Lord has anointed me
    to proclaim good news to the poor.
    He has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted,
    to proclaim freedom for the captives
    and release from darkness for the prisoners,
    to proclaim the year of the Lord’s favor
    and the day of vengeance of our God,”

    Jesus quotes from this in Luke 4, but interestingly enough Jesus leaves out the line
    “and the day of vengeance of our God,”

    I find this very telling when I consider the possibility of cruelty and barbarity in the person of Jesus Christ the God-man.

    Just some scattered thoughts from me today.

  27. Fr. Stephen Avatar

    Margaret Sarah,
    I do not put “Scripture” on a par with Jesus, in the sense of having “two sources” – a square and a circle that need to be reconciled. I’ve seen the results, proven again and again, of those whose understanding of God is cruel and barbaric. The results are cruel and barbaric, unsurprisingly. I don’t need a God who does that – there’s enough of it already around me.

    It’s in that context, if you will, that Jesus is quite surprising. In the context of all of those stories, and their inheritance, surrounded by a brutal and barbaric paganism (complete with child sacrifice, slavery, cult prostitution, and wholesale slaughter, etc.), there suddenly appears this man – who speaks differently, who lives differently, who teaches differently, who gives a very different “spin” on the OT stories – and whose own life, willingly sacrificed in the face of cruelty and barbarism, forgives it, and is raised from the dead.

    It is that single fact, indeed, Singular Fact, that interests me. I feel no need to rescue the cruelty and barbarism of Israel’s stories – except as they are read and interpreted by those who take me deeper into Jesus Himself. That it is ironic, paradoxical, and contradictory that these sources (are they the square or the circle?) are often “unlike” Christ Himself does not surprise me. Everything is unlike Christ. There were no sources before Him other than those that would have to be re-interpreted and brought out of their cruelty and barbarism into the light of His life.

    Instead, we’ve had a 500 year Bible-cult birthed out of the Reformation that has distorted our use and understanding of the Orthodox reading of Scripture.

    I would say that there are “uses” of the cruelty and barbarism that are like parables and metaphors – “put sin to death” – for example, and many more. The language of worship, like the language of love, is often poetic, over-the-top, erotic, barbaric, and even cruel (“nail my flesh to the fear of Thee”). But, the right reading is always, always, always, to “stand in the cleft” of the pierced side of the Crucified Jesus, wrapped securely in His love and forgiveness, in the security of His words and radical kindness, and look at whatever passes by (including that which might seem cruel and barbaric). Only from that cleft-wrapped space can we see clearly.

    “Hide me under the shadow of Thy wings…”

    That’s pretty much the best i can do to explain what I’m thinking in all of this.
    s

  28. Margaret Sarah Avatar
    Margaret Sarah

    Fr. Stephen, you said “That’s pretty much the best I can do to explain what I’m thinking in all of this.” I can say this – your best is quite good! Thank very much.

    Matthew, thank you!

    I apologize for the abruptness of that last post – I was speaking from the heart, where these questions hurt.

    In light of what Father said, I can see how the stories are indeed contradictory – and the contradiction is more in the images used than of God’s goodness. It’s a contradiction to use stories of apparent cruelty to express Goodness. I suppose deep down that contradiction can render me suspicious of what Goodness and Love is – I might not like it, after all. It’s difficult to explain, but there even in the statement “God is Love” or “God is loving” there seems to be a sort of threat. It’s a place where all is truly unique and truly one – true multiplicity in true unity. “I” ceases to be simply and solely “I”. And to someone as egotistical and suspicious as I am, that is terrifying. Love in itself can seem somewhat “cruel”. In that sense, even Christ, filling all things, is terrifying.

    This is all very rambling, but I hope I’m making some sense. Also, it’s strayed very far from what Mallory originally said. I’d like to hear more from her.

  29. Matthew Avatar
    Matthew

    Thanks so much Fr. Stephen for your response to Margaret Sarah.

    It has helped me.

  30. Fr. Stephen Avatar

    Margaret Sarah,
    I deeply understand the hurt – the place that can be suspicious. I came out of a largely secular home (nominal Baptists) but with a lot of dysfunction and violence. My extended family also had some chaos – a favorite aunt brutally murdered, another dying of a terrible disease – and all this before I was 10. But I stumbled into Christ at about age 15 – and I found Him as a safe place – not as my adversary. Some of that might just be unique to my own situation.

    I’ve often counseled people, “Don’t mistake your neurosis for God.” For me, the check on that has been to stay focused and grounded in the Crucified Christ (and I find that supported in the Fathers and the counsels of the Church). At this stage of my life (in my 70s) I do not worry that He might be other than I have come to know. I worry that I too often refuse to know Him more deeply.

    I do remember, however, in the Narnia books, the question regarding Aslan the Lion (the Christ figure): “Is He a tame lion?” Answer: “No. But He’s good.”

  31. Matthew Avatar
    Matthew

    Man … when we are not talking about Catholic vs. Orthodox, this is a very therapeutic space. I thank you all! 🙂

  32. Matthew Avatar
    Matthew

    Margaret Sarah said:

    “It’s difficult to explain, but there even in the statement “God is Love” or “God is loving” there seems to be a sort of threat. It’s a place where all is truly unique and truly one – true multiplicity in true unity. “I” ceases to be simply and solely “I”. And to someone as egotistical and suspicious as I am, that is terrifying. Love in itself can seem somewhat “cruel”. In that sense, even Christ, filling all things, is terrifying.”

    Margaret Sarah … this is it! This is absolutely it! In my opinion you have hit the nail on the head! This is the major problem (as I said, in my opinion) why so many people are unable to move toward God. The issues of “self” and “I” and “autonomy” cloud so much of our salvific journey as well as our journey toward salvation; toward union with God. I think I hear your fear Margaret Sarah. Know that in some sense I am with you.

    Lord have mercy. Christ have mercy. Lord have mercy.

    So much more could be said about this. I thank you so much for your honesty and your keen insight. May you have peace from all that seems terrifying. Be blessed.

  33. Tom Liddle Avatar
    Tom Liddle

    This may be a strange place to invoke John Calvin. However, he has written that “humility is the one necessary condition for spiritual progress.” He links that with the humility of Christ and the believer’s mystical union with Christ by the power of the Holy Spirit. Eastern Orthodoxy and Reformed Christianity emphasize different thing, but may have more in common than we often realize!

  34. Fr. Stephen Avatar

    Tom,
    I’m glad when even John Calvin says something correct.

  35. Margaret Sarah Avatar
    Margaret Sarah

    Father and Matthew,

    Thank you for your kind words of encouragement. Timidity and non commitment are tempting. It’s very bold to want to know and love God, it seems. I sit on the fence and think far too much. However, if Truth is terrifying, I wouldn’t want to be delivered from it. May Truth swallow me up, terror and all.

    Drag me to paradise, right? 🙂

  36. Fr. Stephen Avatar

    Margaret Sarah,
    Oh yes!

  37. Matthew Avatar
    Matthew

    Thanks so much Margaret Sarah.

  38. Mallory Avatar
    Mallory

    Wow, this conversation is fascinating! Thank you Margaret Sarah for jumping in and empathizing with my plight. Thank you Dee and Matthew and Fr. Stephen for your nourishing words of insight.

    Margaret Sarah, when you wrote: “It’s very bold to want to know and love God, it seems.” I felt, yes, that’s it. I think I’m feeling bold in my anger at the whole mess, the whole human mess, and God’s place in it, all the contradictions, all the mysteries–like really? I walk around my neighborhood and look at the houses and the families in them, sometimes children just stuck in there with insane angry adults, and think, no one really knows what this is. We’re just here and we have no clue what happens after this or even really how we got here or why? And we’re handed a set of circumstances that are beautiful and challenging and push us up against impossible walls and impossible people within a system and culture that tell you you’re not enough, work harder, and along the way, don’t forget, we’re supposed to love everyone and ourselves on top of it all?

    Yet, yet, the faith I have that I am being led by Christ towards something true, pulled by grace into something close to the “God is Love” abyss…that pull is there no matter my rather angsty teenage-like protest about where “I’ve” (whatever that is) ended up. I can sometimes feel this Love physically in my heart, not in a metaphorical way, literally in my beating heart. It hurts.

    Fr. Stephen, as I learn best from stories, I thank you for this reminder: “I do remember, however, in the Narnia books, the question regarding Aslan the Lion (the Christ figure): “Is He a tame lion?” Answer: “No. But He’s good.”

    My dog is like this. He is the best creature I know–he is not tame, but he is good. One of our nicknames for him is Lion. I hope to know more people like this, become more like this myself.

    I have so much gratitude for this community. Love and blessings to all!

  39. Fr. Stephen Avatar

    Mallory,
    Thank you for this. Our heads get very noisy from time to time (mine as well). It’s good to stop and breathe, to stop and love, to stop and pray.

  40. Matthew Avatar
    Matthew

    I am very pleased that you are here, Mallory. Your frankness and honesty inspire me. I hope to learn to become a better teller of stories someday.

  41. Margaret Sarah Avatar
    Margaret Sarah

    Mallory,

    “I can sometimes feel this Love physically in my heart, not in a metaphorical way, literally in my beating heart. It hurts.” It exactly does! It hurts. There is such a pain in that pull towards Truth, in the question of what it is all for, in the immensity of apparent meaninglessness. And, paradoxically, it is a pain that I would never want to quiet. To become tune-deaf to pain and suffering would be alienation from reality.

    I sometimes giggle over and sometimes ponder over what Werner Herzog says about the brutality and messiness and “obscenity” of the jungle: “I do not say all of this without admiration of the jungle. I do not hate it. I love it, I love it very much. But I love it against my better judgment.”

  42. Mallory Avatar
    Mallory

    Thank you Fr. Stephen and Matthew!

    Margaret Sarah, yes to all. What a great quote.
    I spent the last few years hating the jungle and that doesn’t work any more than loving it to distraction does!

    God help us all.

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