Creation and Evolution

18c_russiaThe crucifixion, death and resurrection of Christ is the proper beginning point for all Christian theology. Christ’s Pascha should be the source for all Christian reflection. It is clear that the disciples themselves did not understand the Scriptures nor Christ Himself until after the resurrection (Luke 24:45). We cannot approach Pascha as a midpoint in a historical narrative. It is the beginning. That which came before is only understood by reading backwards from Pascha (even though Pascha was before all things – Rev. 13:8). Everything subsequent to Christ’s resurrection is also understood only in the light of Pascha. Pascha is the meaning of all things. I offer this brief reminder of the true nature of theology as I continue my reflections on evolution and creation.

As I noted in the previous article, the age of the universe presses the question about the nature of the Biblical creation narrative in Genesis. Advocates for a 6,000 year-old earth based in a strict literalism find themselves having to resort to notions of a universe created in a manner to only “appear” old. A single, flawed reading of Scripture is preferred to the reliability of simple observation. With such caprice as dogma, Christianity would be embracing a literalist tyranny. Nothing in the world is reliable, only a narrow reading of the text. This narrow reading is a product of a false use of the notion of history

How did history come to triumph over all things? The answer is not far removed from Genesis and Adam.

The early chapters of Genesis were treated in a variety of ways by the early fathers. They by no means held universally to a literal interpretation. The Old Testament mentions Adam but once (other than a geneology) outside the book of Genesis. Adam as the progenitor of sin is nowhere an idea of importance (or even an idea) within the Old Testament. St. Paul raises Adam to a new level of consideration, recognizing in him a type of Christ, “the Second Adam.” But St. Paul’s Adam is arguably much like St. Paul’s Abraham (in Galatians), a story whose primary usefulness is the making of a theological point.

Nevertheless, St. Paul’s lead eventually becomes the pathway for history’s ascendancy. For while it is true that man’s breaking communion with God is the source of death, this is reduced to mere historical fact in the doctrine of Original Sin. For here Adam, as the first historical man, becomes infinitely guilty and deserving of punishment, and pays his juridical debt forward to all generations. This historical understanding of the fall, with inherited guilt, locks the Fall within historical necessity. It is among numerous reasons that Original Sin, as classically stated in the West, has not found a lasting place within Orthodox tradition.

Written into a diminished doctrine of the atonement, Adam as the historical source of the fall becomes a theological necessity. He also becomes an easy target for the enemies of the Christian faith. For even if the resurrection is beyond the reach of unbelief, a 6,000 year-old Adam is child’s play for those who would reduce the need for Christ’s redemption to the ridicule of a few ancient bones and Carbon-14 dating.

Some would reduce this historical danger by pushing Adam back in time. How long? And in what way? C.S. Lewis, wonderful Christian thinker, but still a man of his Western heritage, offers an account of an older Adam, merged with an evolutionary tale:

For long centuries, God perfected the animal form which was to become the vehicle of humanity and the image of Himself. He gave it hands whose thumb could be applied to each of the fingers, and jaws and teeth and throat capable of articulation, and a brain sufficiently complex to execute all of the material motions whereby rational thought is incarnated. The creature may have existed in this state for ages before it became man: it may even have been clever enough to make things which a modern archaeologist would accept as proof of its humanity. But it was only an animal because all its physical and psychical processes were directed to purely material and natural ends. Then, in the fullness of time, God caused to descend upon this organism, both on its psychology and physiology, a new kind of consciousness which could say “I” and “me,” which could look upon itself as an object, which knew God, which could make judgments of truth, beauty and goodness, and which was so far above time that it could perceive time flowing past…. We do not know how many of these creatures God made, nor how long they continued in the Paradisal state. But sooner or later they fell. Someone or something whispered that they could become as gods…. They wanted some corner in this universe of which they could say to God, “This is our business, not yours.” But there is no such corner. They wanted to be nouns, but they were, and eternally must be, mere adjectives. We have no idea in what particular act, or series of acts, the self-contradictory, impossible wish found expression. For all I can see, it might have concerned the literal eating of a fruit, the question is of no consequence. (C.S. Lewis, Problem of Pain, 68-71)

This requirement to salvage some literal Adam somewhere, somehow, is not shared by the universal opinion of the fathers. Indeed, the treatment of the early chapters of Genesis is “all over the map,” sometimes even within the writings of a single father. The primary fathers of the East (if I may use such a term), Basil, the two Gregories, etc., are quite free with both historical and ahistorical treatments of Adam. Bouteneff, citing both Behr and Balthasar, notes that Gregory does not envisage a historic pre-fallen immortal state.

[Gregory] alludes twice in the Catechetical Oration to the fact that Moses is speaking through a story, or an allegory. The implication of this is that God’s addition of mortality is a part of his creation of humanity from the beginning, in foreknowledge of the ongoing fall. However, Gregory does not care to make this plain here. Nor does he ever develop a portraiture of an idealized pre-fallen Adam or Eve who would not have been subject to death and all that it entails for human life (Bouteneff, 164).

There is even an on-again-off-again treatment of paradise as a non-material existence. St. Basil uses the very interesting phrase: “In your righteous judgment, you, O God, sent him [man] forth from paradise into this world…”

St. Basil is far removed from the later Western account of Adam as the progenitor of sin. He wrote: “Evil has no other origin than our voluntary falls. . . . Each of us is the first author of his own vice; . . . you are the master of your actions” (In Hex. 2.5).

Bouteneff writes:

So strong was his sense of human free choice that Basil did not even consider an action sinful unless it was done consciously and voluntarily. He thus has no interest in blaming Adam for our sin, because freedom—a part of the divine image itself—trumps all determinism (138).

This does not deny humanity’s complicity in death. Rather, it is similar to Dostoevsky’s words: “Each man is guilty of the sins of the whole world.”

But does this mean that God created a world that has held death from the beginning? It would not be strange to say so, since Pascha was before the beginning. St. Paul states that creation was made “subject to futility” in view of man (but not with man as the cause). Creation is clearly “subject to futility” by God’s action.

What is damaged in such an account is the apparent integrity of a time line. But it has never been part of the Christian gospel that history is a closed system. That the faith redeems history is one thing, but it is not subject to it. Pascha triumphs over all things.

Adam’s breaking of communion with God brings death. Death as the “last enemy,” however, is not revealed until Christ’s resurrection. For though human beings have always died, death was by no means seen as the central point of the Old Testament faith. Indeed, death and life-after-death were handled in a variety of manners before Christ.

Just as Christ’s resurrection reveals life to the world, so His life also reveals death as the enemy. It is only in light of Christ’s death and resurrection that the story of Adam becomes interesting and universal in its meaning. Christ’s resurrection liberates the early chapters of Genesis from possible obscurity as Jewish creation myth into the most profound account of the crisis of human existence.

Death is a fact of our existence, thus the Fall is a fact of that existence. But the significance of our death is only made known to us in Christ. I personally remain skeptical of the efforts to describe the historical character of the Fall, even as I remain utterly aware of its reality in my life. Biological death, well known throughout our existence, is not yet the “fullness” of death revealed in Christ/Adam. We do not know death until Christ.

Science

There is a conflict between Christian believing and certain versions of evolutionary theory. Biology itself holds no contradictions for the Christian faith. However, meta-theories of biology are often grounded in ideologies that have no place within science. As theories of meaning, they are more “religious” than scientific in nature.

Biology can describe change, but the meaning of change, the purpose of change remains beyond its scope. Creation as the unfolding of “random chance” is the best that can be offered without reference to God (even if some chances are more likely than others). But this brings us to the same question that is confronted daily by believers (and others). God’s work remains opaque, we cannot see behind its results and watch the process of divine action. But the results are often so startling that randomness would seem absurd. And this applies profoundly to the unfolding of our universe.

Believers need not argue about the absurdity of a universe that some think to be random. For the resurrection is that one moment that shatters the silence of God and the opacity of His work. It is the voice of God explaining Himself (John 1:18).

We rightly hear in the language of “survival of the fittest” nothing more than the 19th century Christian heresy of Progress. Progress is a mere ideology, a secularized version of Christian eschatology. The 20th century endured the catastrophe of various brave new worlds. Progress, as an idea, belongs in the dustbin of history. History and evolution do not carry within them their own meaning. If a comet takes out human existence tomorrow, then all of the “progress” of the human race will have been a moot point. “Progress” begs the question: “progressing towards what?”

But there is a movement (kinesis) within creation and it is revealed in Christ/Adam. The created Adam, the significance of whose story is made known in Christ, is created as image and likeness of God. The fathers note that this creation is only fulfilled in Christ Himself, the Second Adam. For the first Adam does not become what he was made to be. Only the Second Adam is able to say on the Cross, “It is finished,” for man in the likeness of God is only revealed in the suffering and self-emptying of the Cross – the death-that-becomes-life.

Just as Christ’s resurrection reveals the meaning of Adam, so the resurrection reveals the meaning and purpose of creation itself. The resurrection alone offers transcendence and eternity to a universe of seeming chance and randomness. The movement of Creation is towards Christ’s Pascha, though we do not call that movement “evolution” nor imagine it unfolding through biology. But we do not imagine that the unfolding of the universe has nothing to do with the resurrection, for Creation shares a destiny with man:

…the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God. For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. (Rom 8:19-21 NKJ)

This is indeed the glory of God!

About Fr. Stephen Freeman

Fr. Stephen is a priest of the Orthodox Church in America, Pastor Emeritus of St. Anne Orthodox Church in Oak Ridge, Tennessee. He is also author of Everywhere Present and the Glory to God podcast series.


Comments

349 responses to “Creation and Evolution”

  1. Dino Avatar
    Dino

    That is why a Christian is not scared of being in hell if he has God dwelling in him. And equally he is terrified of still having selfishness in him (‘hell’ if you like) even if they place him in Paradise.

    But, (back to the topic of the Creation), we mustn’t allow our scientific knowledge to become a thought that aids unbelief unaware of the hidden adversary in it.
    If after finding out about the incomprehensible vastness of the known universe I tend towards unbelief – it just means my God was small, a created imaginary god.
    The God one encounters -even if I myself never encounter Him on this earth, others have and that suffices- is the explanation of this immensity, as well as of the paradox of His concern for little man (a spiritual version of what we call the “anthropic principle” in astronomy). In fact not believing in Him, at least in this sense, while knowing of the unbelievable vastness of the universe (and you seem to have delved into that subject like me) makes the ‘chance’ existence of all this stuff that exists an even greater abdication of my reason.

  2. Dana Ames Avatar
    Dana Ames

    Hi TLO – don’t want to interrupt the conversation – I have no “words of wisdom” – Fr Stephen’s suffice. Just want to send you a virtual hug.

    Dana

  3. TLO Avatar
    TLO

    Hi Dana! Hugs back. It’s been a long while, hasn’t it? How are you? I trust that all is well with you.

    I am fantastic. Lots of stuff happening in the past year+.

    Among them, my Mom died in March 2013. Dad’s getting married to a phenomenal lady this coming May and I have found that dealing with both events has been a lot easier for me than for my Christian sister and my parent’s other Christian friends – except the Orthodox! Simply being outside of Evangelical/Protestant thinking has allowed me to look at these events as I think is reasonable.

    My parents met at age 16, dated for three years and were married for 54 years. Dad did right by Mom and I admire him for it. And Mom had a good long life. I miss her terribly but I see no reason why my grief should be assuaged before dad is free to look for happiness. I’m just not that selfish.

    I have been so impressed with how Dad’s fellow Orthos have been so understanding, encouraging and supportive. Even my mom gave dad her blessing before she passed. Why all these people gave him any grief at all about looking for someone to be close to is beyond me.

    Not looking for an opportunity to bag on the unOrthodox but the reality has simply underscored my admiration for what I consider to be the true Christianity. This community has had a huge impact on how I view Christianity in practice.

    :::patting you all on the back:::

  4. TLO Avatar
    TLO

    Dino:

    We mustn’t allow our scientific knowledge to become a thought that aids unbelief

    I agree, to a point. I think any belief system needs to stand or fall on its own merit. This is why I wanted to distill it down to the one central question.

    That said, the RC reaction to Galileo is an example where belief can often be based in the wrong things and science can’t help but expose this. To my mind, scientific discovery should always strengthen a correct theology either by underscoring something that has been held as truth or exposing where an incorrect concept of God goes off the rails.

    The trap that the Evangelicals fall into is to try to use science to support their theology. That’s how we ended up with the Ham on Nye debate. Ken Ham presented the most preposterous ideas because he’s made the mistake of mixing theology with YEC. I don’t think that John Cleese could have come up with more absurd arguments.

    My unbelief began because of what I saw as a direct link between The Fall and The Cross. Since The Fall cannot possibly be an actual, factual event, The Cross made no sense to me. Even as allegory, it makes no sense to me that there should be a literal remedy. One does not invest his fortune into righting the wrongs of Rumpelstiltskin.

    But Fr. Stephen has made it clear that the Fall is not really the question. The resurrection is. I have no interest in defending a position. I crave understanding. I have zero problem admitting when I am wrong. In this case, I was incorrectly viewing the Orthodox understanding.

    This is not the place for me to discuss my thoughts on that matter because I have a deep respect for this community and I have no desire to even risk the possibility of dissuading any of you in your faith.

    Now that I do have a correct starting point, I can investigate it with a clear head. I am completely unafraid of what I will find, no matter how it plays out. (And, to be honest, I don’t really want to discuss it with this community because I know that eventually it will result in some of you brainiacs throwing out huge words that I have to look up before I get what you mean… 😉 )

  5. Jesse Avatar
    Jesse

    “Since The Fall cannot possibly be an actual, factual event” ….chto?!

  6. mary benton Avatar
    mary benton

    Hi TLO,

    A couple of comments:

    (your words – I don’t know how to quote you in those nice blocks) I think you leave out an important component. “If there is a personal God who is source of all Life and who is goodness Itself and who cares about human beings.”

    Jesus is the revelation of God as “personal” and “caring about human beings”. (If Jesus was just some guy, not the Incarnate Word of God, it would mean something totally different than what I believe it means.)

    (your words) “it seems to me highly narcissistic…”

    It would be narcissistic if WE invented the idea that God cared about our tiny species. It is extremely humbling and beautiful if God did (which is what I believe).

    (your words) Why couldn’t god just say, “I forgive you”, end of story?

    He does. Hard part is getting us to believe and accept it.

    (your words) You are a good person. Would you require a bloody animal or human sacrifice before you would reconcile with someone?

    Actually, I’m not a particularly good person. I’m a sinner. No, I wouldn’t require bloody sacrifices. And I don’t think God did either. God made Himself the sacrifice, not someone else. This the ultimate “personal” act of Love.

    And, like Fr. Stephen, I believe it does all rest on Resurrection (though not apart from the Incarnation).

  7. fatherstephen Avatar
    fatherstephen

    Yes, Jesse, when having conversations with a non believer, some of them will say that the Fall cannot possibly be a factual event…

    It’s a broader conversation…

  8. TLO Avatar
    TLO

    when having conversations with a non believer, some of them will say that the Fall cannot possibly be a factual event…

    It’s a broader conversation…

    Well, to be fair, as you pointed out the Church Fathers are all over the map regarding this as well.

    Forgetting any other evidence, if you ask any Rabbi you will learn that the Hebrews never took the Garden story literally, and it’s their book so I think they should know.

  9. fatherstephen Avatar
    fatherstephen

    TLO and Jesse,
    I’m reading David Bentley Hart’s God (great title for a book). He is probably one of the most brilliant theologians (of any stripe) writing today. That’s not to say he’s the holiest – but his mastery of material and depth of study is breath-taking. I’ve occasionally disagreed with him on some minor things. But this book, occasionally a real work to read, will become, I think, or should become, a standard read for thinking at all about God. It clarifies so much – particularly clearing out the brush of wrong ideas.

    He touches on the creation stories, I would love to see him write an entire article on the topic. His read of the fathers in the matter is consonant with my own.

    Jesse, I think you have a confusion between the meaning of “literal” and “factual.” This is a fairly modern development (complete with linear time lines).

    The “literal” meaning of a text is the meaning of what it actually says. Thus, if the text says something is a “bush,” then it means “bush” and not “greed” or something like that. The repeated insistence on the “literal” meaning, often cited in the fathers, has much more to do with avoiding a kind of fantastic use of allegory that was not uncommon, indeed it was popular, in the ancient world. It began to be carried to far many thought in the work of Origen and some others and there was a back lash – essentially an effort to maintain the integrity of the Scriptural text. It imposes controls. The story is what the story actually is.

    But the relationship between the literal meaning of the story, and facticity is another matter, and is not at all the same thing as the meaning of the word “literal,” though the word could have that meaning at times as well.

    We misuse “literal” all the time in modern language. It is always important, by the way, to know that the meaning of a word in one father (and century) can be subtly or quite different from its meaning in another father (or century). Thus collections of quotes gathered together, appearing to say the same thing, can, in fact be misleading. There is no substitute for the difficult work of scholarship. Piety is good, but it is not a substitute for study.

  10. Brian Avatar
    Brian

    TLO,

    You make me smile. I loved this:

    “And, to be honest, I don’t really want to discuss it with this community because I know that eventually it will result in some of you brainiacs throwing out huge words that I have to look up before I get what you mean…”

    You are what the ‘sophisticated’ Orthodox would call supercalafragalististicexpealidocious!

  11. Michael Patrick Avatar
    Michael Patrick

    TLO,

    Respecting a difference between God and creatures, Orthodoxy is about reality which, for creatures, is the givens of God. We live and die with what we’re given.

    Like given phenomena, the Word also originates in silence. Silence is our destiny. Words distract from silence. If coming from silence a few will do.

    Not touched? God’s touch is found in death where silence will not suffer distractions. Baptism (death) is where all talk of living touch begins.

    Anticipating death, we may seek silence today. If God doesn’t touch us today, at least we may have some peace until or if he does.

    Suffering? Silently look at the cross until a Word for you comes out. This is Orthodoxy.

    Best,
    Michael

  12. TLO Avatar
    TLO

    Brian: Ha! I know that one!

    Michael: You are getting way ahead of me. I am at step 1, the one upon which your theology depends. For some reason, it’s a step that few are able to identify as being the first step at all. It took a lot of work to clear away the bracken and leaves just to find it. Now it’s time to test whether it is solid or not.

  13. Michael Patrick Avatar
    Michael Patrick

    TLO, the first and last step for everyone is under that cross. It may be hard but it is not complicated.

  14. TLO Avatar
    TLO

    Michael – Not to be nitpicky but I believe that it is at the tomb, and not at the cross, where the first step lies. The cross speaks of punishment, guilt, and justice. The resurrection speaks of something else entirely.

  15. Robert Bearer Avatar
    Robert Bearer

    Dear to Christ, TLO,

    Why do you conclude that the Cross speaks of “punishment, guilt and justice”? Are you sure? Assuming it did, in some small part, is that all it speaks of? Who is on it? Why? Then, as you say, the Tomb is important, too, and the Sabbath rest and descent into Hades that it implies and the harrowing of Hades and–yes, of course–the Resurrection (and the Incarnation itself), the sitting down at the right hand of the Father, and the sending of the Holy Spirit and the Church and His glorious second coming again–and all these other things that He has freelly done FOR us.

    Christ is in our midst,
    rlb

  16. Robert Bearer Avatar
    Robert Bearer

    Dear to Christ, TLO,

    I owed you another response from yesterday. Forgive me for taking so long. Time hardly permits a true conversation.

    You said, I believe, “The difficulty I have with this idea of a voluntary separation is this: one has to be aware of something in order for one to voluntarily avoid it.

    “If one is born in Arizona, do you then say that they voluntarily avoid the ocean?”

    It may be that I should not have used the term “voluntary” for we daily ask forgiveness of our sins, both voluntary and involuntary.” But my own experience is that we live in a constant state of forgetfulness of God. This forgetfullness is often involuntary, sometimes it is intentional and sometime deliberate. My experience of the human conditon is one of self-centeredness and disordered desire to have things generally my way. It is not easy–it seems virtually impossible–to love God with whole heart, mind and strength and to love others–family, friends, strangers and enemies as truly part of one’s very self and of an equal value and personhood. It is very hard to see things as others see them–though with vigilence it is possible from time to time.

    In any event, the Word of God became Man to put an end to this fragementaion and to reveal to us Who God is and Who we, human beings, are created and made to be.

    I understand the conundrum you pose by your example of the Arizonan who has never seen the sea. However, I don’t think it’s apt, since we are talking about God Who is always everywhere present and Who is closer to us than our own breath. The fact is, if we are sharing on this board, we have already approached the seashore.

    God the Holy Trinity is filled with nothing but love for each of us and asking us to turn to Him and share His affection as a little child–in gratitude, wonder, joy, trust and love–and then to tell others of His greatness. Is this so much a question of the mind and reason, as it is of the heart and the communion of persons freelly engaged in self-giving and receiving?

    Christ is in our midst,
    rlb

  17. TLO Avatar
    TLO

    Why is everyone so quick to move on?

    It is the resurrection that is the cornerstone. That is all I am thinking about at preset.

  18. Brian McDonald Avatar
    Brian McDonald

    I’ve only recently become a regular reader of this blog. The sweetness and charity with which people almost always treat each other blows my mind. This is one of the few—perhaps the only—blog I know where people regularly talk TO each other instead of AT each other. The result is that Fr. Stephen’s initial post becomes a gift that keeps on giving: the discussion continues to move “further up and further in” as people respond to each others’ questions or challenge one another’s answers and thereby pull one another into more insight even while sometimes pulling against each other! It is amazing how much wisdom can emerge when people join together on a journey to find it instead of engaging in a contest to see who wins!

  19. TLO Avatar
    TLO

    Hi Brian – I have had similar experiences on exchristian.net and in a private group of about 200 ex-Christians on facebook.

    There are good people to be found in many places.

  20. MichaelPatrick Avatar
    MichaelPatrick

    TLO,

    By bringing up punishment, guilt, and justice it’s clear you’re burdened by some unOrthodox baggage. Nevertheless, we can’t escape that resurrection always starts in a tomb.

    We die because we wildly miss our calling to be divine (sin), refusing the gifts, trying to rob God’s store when he’d rather just give us more than we can imagine. Punishment doesn’t put us in tombs and Christ did not die in punishment. He went in there with love to get us out.

    We were just dust made out of nothing and a complete resurrection starts back at zero. Everything is new. New birth. Baptism.

    Jesus’ cross actively turns death into a source of life. This is daily, it is now. Ever notice how most Orthodox crosses flower with life? “Come, take up the cross, and follow Me.” (Matt 6, Mark 8,10, Luke 9) Dying this way is the only way to live.

    Kind regards,
    Michael

  21. Dino Avatar
    Dino

    Us Greeks have a whole bunch of words that deliberately join the Cross and the Resurrection into one.
    We say for instance: “Σταυροαναστάσημη χαρά” literally: “the Joy of the cross-resurrection”
    Orthodox portray Christ on the Cross, dead, yet with the original inscription INRI changed to “The King of Glory”…

    We see everything through the resurrection, absolutely everything, most especially suffering. And the triumph is in the crucified and exalted Christ.
    Some rare Fathers have spoken of Christ’s ‘joy’ while ascending Golgotha to be crucified, of his ‘eagerness’ to be crucified for us, explaining that the only sadness He had about being crucified (in Gethsemane) is not that He would be crucified – no… It is that some people would commit that sin.

    We see this in most martyrs too…

  22. Dana Ames Avatar
    Dana Ames

    TLO,

    I’m well, thanks for asking. I’m in the stage of life where my kids are getting married. One eloped, and everyone’s fine with that. Another is getting married in August. Hopefully the third will marry longtime significant other before too long. None is interested in the Christianity in which they were raised, which is not as distressing to me as it is to my husband… I read somewhere on the interweb that when your children start their spiritual journeys, it’s not from ground zero; rather, it’s from where *you* are. I think this is true, at least anecdotally. My kids moved out of Evangelicalism at the same time I was moving out of the whole western Christian scene and into Orthodoxy.

    Sorry to hear of you mother’s repose. My mother married again, 15 years after my dad had passed, and had a very happy second marriage. Hope the same is so for your dad.

    I really am glad to see you hanging ’round here again!

    And do please sit right there at the entrance to the tomb.

    Another hug-
    Dana

  23. fatherstephen Avatar
    fatherstephen

    Brief thoughts when I think of the entrance to the tomb (an anecdote). In 2008 my wife and I made a pilgrimage to the Holy Land. I was in the Church of the Resurrection (where the tomb of Christ is located) late one night for Divine Liturgy (it starts after midnight). I was standing by the tomb of Christ, hearing confessions of people in our pilgrimage group. When I finished, a line of Russians formed and started coming up for confession one-by-one. I kept saying “I don’t understand Russian” (in Russian – a useful phrase to know), but they confessed anyway, and I gave absolution (since God speaks Russian). This continued until a Babushka came up and started chewing me out in Russian. So I stopped and went away.

    Being chewed out is a common priestly experience. It was not my first, nor my last. But it was the most memorable! And an interesting memory to have attached to the tomb of Christ.

    Utterly overshadowing that was the liturgy itself. I was able to enter and receive communion in the tomb itself with the other priests. Earlier, the priest preparing the bread and wine (the service of proskomedie), did so in the tomb on the place where Christ’s Body lay. the faithful (lay, ordained, male, female) were able to go in the tomb, kneel, and read names aloud for the priest to take particles for from the bread (they go on the plate next to the Lamb (Bread) that will be consecrated in the liturgy). This service is always done preceding the liturgy – the memory of this particular one has now accompanied every Proskomedie I’ve done since. The Eucharist is our mystical sharing in Christ’s death and resurrection.

  24. Cuthbert Avatar
    Cuthbert

    What a great conversation. I don’t want to “move on” from where your thoughts currently lie, TLO, but I’m curious as to what your logical, reasonable purposes are for equating size with importance. More than once in your comments you’ve spoken of our “little” planet, and our “pathetic” species in the context of the vastness of our universe and even further into the multiverse. Your mentioning of the Catholic response to Galileo is kind of ironic, given that your comments seem to imply you would expect a sort of Earth-is-central viewpoint of the universe, were Christianity true. Our planet is indeed tiny, and our species is most certainly pathetic, but there is no connection between that and whether or not we are of importance to God. Indeed, of supreme importance.

  25. TLO Avatar
    TLO

    Hey Dana – The thing with kids is that at some point we as parents have to realize that they aren’t us and the choices they make are not a reflection of how they were raised. Said another way, don’t take their life choices personally. They are them and you are you.

    Letting them go and allowing life to kick them in the butt is hard but usually necessary. And taking on responsibility for their behaviour is usually a bad move.

    Before being concerned about whether they adopt Christianity, my first thought would be “are they good people?” That is a true indicator of what someone believes, IMO. And, honestly, there is so much junk-Christianity out there, can you really blame them?

    Personally, I think that any deity who would in any way look down on anyone who honestly cannot accept the story as it is presented isn’t really much of a god. I can name a dozen agnostics who I know who are far more merciful, generous and gracious than a host of Christians I have known through the years. I have difficulty in thinking that a good god would cast them off.

  26. TLO Avatar
    TLO

    Our planet is indeed tiny, and our species is most certainly pathetic, but there is no connection between that and whether or not we are of importance to God. Indeed, of supreme importance.

    I would suggest that saying that we are of supreme importance to god is opinion, not observation. I am observing the size and scope of things and surmising from a human perspective that it’s pretty unlikely for a creator to even be aware of us, let alone care about whether we get angry with someone else. It is just as likely that god would care about the habits of an amoeba. I am speaking in mere probabilities.

    My comment about the gangster battle between Rapper G Solar and P-Daddy Urban simply underscores what I see as a major problem. When one, such as the Pope, starts from “we are the most important creatures in the universe” then the universe (obviously) revolves around us. I see this as primarily arrogance and ignorance. (I am not equating the Catholic worldview at that time with Orthodoxy. The RC seemed to have lots of issues, such as a need for power, which I don’t think the Orthodox church tried to capitalize on.)

    If we start out with recognizing our own insignificance then by default you are starting with humility and awe.

    Look at it this way. If we assume we are all-important, then of course god is going to pay attention to us. Why wouldn’t he? Look how amazing we are! We are the pretty girl who everyone admires and we expect god to do stuff for us. You see what I’m saying?

    If we assume that we are insignificant and then learn that god is paying attention to us, that is most baffling and humbling. To me, this is a far preferable starting point and will, in the long run, keep one from becoming arrogant, condescending and judgmental.

    In my experience, agnosticism/atheism provides a much better home for the meek and humble than does an RC or Protestant worldview. (I don’t know enough about Orthodoxy to make an assessment.)

  27. Dino Avatar
    Dino

    True Christianity is far more deductive than inductive – Elder Sophrony explains this on a fascinating way.
    It is based on a Revelation, a Crucifixion-Resurrection, which is then verified deductively in believers’ lives- everything flows from there.
    Whereas the bottom up (inductive) approach of most science works differently.
    The fact that many modern scientists in their pride, forget that a scientist is normally someone who knows more than anyone on earth, perhaps even in history, about one specific small part of a topic; and fall into a philosopher’s “spherical”/ global view of all that exists -lacking (mocking even) a philosopher’s basic skills- is something worrying we see more and more of lately.

  28. MichaelPatrick Avatar
    MichaelPatrick

    TLO,

    The god you’ve identified with “punishment, guilt and justice” does not exist. He is a fictional character in myths about divine-human justice that so many of us swallowed up in childhood. This god damaged me too.

    You won’t find a vindictive god in the Gospels. A jealous lover of mankind is there. St. John describes him in cosmic terms that I just love, but read any gospel, again. Christ in the gospels deserves a fresh reading, He should be taken on his own terms.

    We have to set old baggage down in His presence, pour out our pain, and lift our eyes to see Him as He is. This is the sacrifice He wants because then He can embrace us. He took our cross for this and went into our tomb for this.

    Kind regards,
    Michael

  29. Dean Avatar
    Dean

    TLO
    I thought of something that C.S. Lewis wrote that reflects on what you said about very generous and merciful unbelievers whom you’ve known that exceed some Christians in virtue. Someone was once complaining to Lewis about a grouchy, not too pleasant old lady who lived in a nearby flat. Mr. Lewis responded…”Oh, but you should have known her before she was a Christian!”

  30. TLO Avatar
    TLO

    Dino:

    The fact that many modern scientists in their pride

    Who, for example?

    Michael:

    The god you’ve identified with “punishment, guilt and justice” does not exist. He is a fictional character

    How do you arrive at that conclusion?

  31. MichaelPatrick Avatar
    MichaelPatrick

    TLO, just read the gospels and see if you find that god in there. I did that and, finding a different God in there, I was eventually able to let go of the mythical punisher-god I had been taught to believe from nursery days on.

    It was hard because everything I read or heard seemed to fit pretty neatly into the punisher-god’s myth. I had swallowed his story, was raised on it and eventually even defended it. But the lie poisoned me spiritually four decades. I’m OK now but that god gave me beating I cannot forget or erase from my bones.

    Kind regards,
    Michael

  32. TLO Avatar
    TLO

    Dino: You contrast “the bottom up (inductive) approach” with revelation.

    I don’t think this is a reasonable approach at all. For goodness sakes, we have 2,000 years of Christian writing constantly contradicting one another about the nature of god. You cannot expect any reasonable person to “simply believe.”

    As Styx put it: “And if I see your light, should I believe? Tell me how will I know?” (From “Show me the way”)

    In my estimation, “revelation” is a form of intellectual laziness. Anyone can claim it. It has no value to me.

    This is why I have worked to narrow down the whole thing to something that can be examined. The only thing that needs to be proven is that the Gospels and resurrection are accurately factual.

  33. TLO Avatar
    TLO

    With Father Stephen’s permission, I would like to throw out the question:

    What irrefutable evidence can anyone present that the texts are accurate and factual?

    Convince me.

    I only have two parameters:

    1. Hearsay is not reliable testimony

    2. Evidence must be able to stand up to scrutiny (e.g. what sources/corroborating evidence supports the texts of the Gospel narrative?).

    I promise not to argue.

    I will simply read from here on out.

  34. fatherstephen Avatar
    fatherstephen

    TLO,
    Remaining at ground-zero, the Resurrection of Christ.

    First, I don’t think any set of beliefs will make much difference in people, Christians or atheists. They’ll pretty much think they are the center of the universe for many reasons (one being that it’s the only place in the universe where they are). “The line between good and evil runs through every human heart” is Solzhenitsyn’s observation, and I think it is true, not matter what kind of person the heart is found in.

    The resurrection of Christ is the true game-changer. There are historical reasons for believing it – the New Testament witness – having been assailed mercilessly by liberal critics for more than a century – has largely emerged unscathed today. There is pretty much “scholarly” consensus that the early, most primitive witness of actual eye-witnesses is that Christ’s tomb was empty and they saw Him alive again, and transformed.

    Having said that, it becomes something of a piece of “data” to be considered. Perhaps they were all mistaken (in which case they were seriously mistaken because all of them were willing to die for that witness). It certainly marked a change not only in those witnesses but in the world itself. The Church became amazingly “universal” (in its world) within a few short centuries. Of course, Islam became quite wide-spread, in a short time, but I consider it cheating to spread at the edge of the sword. 🙂 Buddhism spread fairly quickly too, but should be seen as a “reform” movement within the Hindu/Chinese/Japanese world.

    The Church is the abiding witness of the Resurrection. And it has plenty of things to answer for. Apparently, it is possible to do all kinds of things in the name of God, in the name of the government, in the name of race, in the name of money, etc. Nothing has insulated the Church from the ravages of the human imagination.

    But the core texts of the primitive community remain and are intact. Orthodoxy represents not some perfect institutional incarnation of anything. It, rightly seen, is a continuing community of worship and the spiritual life that is rooted in embodying that primitive witness. It has not undergone great reform, etc. The life of prayer and what that entails abides. It is in that abiding life that the continuing witness of the resurrected Lord remains.

    As an Orthodox Christian (and priest) I have to “put up” with a lot of things that are nonsense and not part of that witness. Some of them are my own sins. Others are the sins and nonsense of others in my immediate community. Others are the sins and nonsense at a greater remove. These things, though pains in the neck, are not terrible concerning to me – it’s the resurrected Christ I’m after and His living witness.

    If I’m being rational about all this – then I would expect certain consequences to flow from an actual, factual, resurrected Christ. And I see those consequences.

    The resurrection does make me think that, for whatever undeserving reason, human beings have been singled out for special attention from the Ground of all Being. Apparently He thinks we’re created in His image. And there are consequences from that. Nothing that should make us arrogant, however.

    One of the consequences is that, we are told, he wants us to be priests of this universe He has created. So, as a sentient being, able to see, to understand, to express, and even “create” to a certain extent, we are supposed to “give voice” (and action) – speaking as the “mouth” of the universe in praise and thanksgiving to the One who causes all things to be. And there are consequences that flow from that.

    One of those consequences is that we gather once a week (on the weekly anniversary of the resurrection) to offer Bread and Wine (that represent not just the “stuff of the universe” but the stuff of the universe that has first been transformed by human beings (bread is wheat transformed, wine is grapes transformed). Offering this, remembering Christ’s death and resurrection, we eat and drink it, being told that the Ground of All Being will make it to be His very life – restoring our communion with Him.

    And there are consequences from that. To be the voice of the universe, the priests of creation, the offerers of thanksgiving, can and should change how we live. It can and should change how we see the universe in which we live and how we live in it.

    And there are consequences from that…

  35. fatherstephen Avatar
    fatherstephen

    TLO,
    working on it. I would ask others to let me do this without too much help. 🙂 I’ve got more services starting shortly. It might be tomorrow before I get this done.

  36. Dino Avatar
    Dino

    TLO,
    to your question: “Who, for example?”

    Physicists Stephen Hawking and Leonard Mlodinow open their 2010 book The Grand Design by asking:

    What is the nature of reality? Where did all this come from? Did the universe need a creator? … Traditionally these are questions for philosophy, but philosophy is dead. Philosophy has not kept up with modern developments in science, particularly physics. Scientists have become the bearers of the torch of discovery in our quest for knowledge.

    from this great article that explains a good deal of what is meant here: http://www.thenewatlantis.com/publications/the-folly-of-scientism

    which is written by a scientist and a non-Christian

  37. Dino Avatar
    Dino

    TLO,
    Maybe forget the “2,000 years of Christian writing constantly contradicting one another about the nature of god.” and remember that True Christianity is what we are talking about, true Orthodoxy, and it starts from ‘the top’ (Pascha – the Crucified, exalted and resurrected Christ) down…
    Of course what i say concerning the ‘deductive’ or ‘inductive’ approach will not make sense if you take into that other context as you did. I hope it’s obvious which ‘context’ I was talking about. I certainly do not have that in wider watered down caricature of Christianity in mind, but I am thinking -perhaps a tiny – portion of what one would think of, or know of, asChristianity in the west. Sorry, i obviously need to be a little more clarifying, as I come from a country and a region that was 98% orthodox background.

  38. TLO Avatar
    TLO

    What irrefutable evidence can anyone present that the texts are accurate and factual?

  39. Dino Avatar
    Dino

    TLO,
    I will let others more knowledgable answer that question. However, I must say that from an Orthodox point of view the text is not the important thing – it is one of many things that re-emphasises and re-verifies what the experience (repeated in various degrees – yet always the same), and verified (first) through the ‘living’ Orthodox tradition, “speaks’ of.
    It is in the hearts (as St Paul explains) that the real ‘text’ (Word) is ever found.
    There was no text, but there certainly was the experience of the resurrected life for the first Apostles, as well as for (as mentioned earlier) Anthony the Great, Mary of Egypt, all the way to the utterly illiterate old granny, or simple peasant in my great-Grandad’s village, who lived the Church life with unceasing remembrance of God, arresting humility, love and joy, who foreknew her/his death and prepared with fasting and frequent communion for it as for their true birth.

  40. fatherstephen Avatar
    fatherstephen

    TLO,
    Patience. But no one will satisfy the word “irrefutable.” I couldn’t prove the sun came up irrefutably. 🙂

    I’ll be writing this afternoon on the matter of evidence.

  41. TLO Avatar
    TLO

    I’ll settle for ‘reasonable.’

  42. TLO Avatar
    TLO

    Dino – I place very low value on personal experience. There are martyrs and holy men in every faith.

  43. fatherstephen Avatar
    fatherstephen

    TLO,

    Evidence for the Resurrection

    The writings of the New Testament are very different kinds of materials. By no means are we looking at simple historical materials. They have a place and purpose in the life of the believing community that varies.

    The earliest writings in the New Testament – agreed by everyone – are St. Paul’s letters. And it is within those letters, specifically 1 Cor. 15:3-8, that the earliest written evidence of the resurrection is found.

    For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received:

    that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures,
    and that He was buried,
    and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures,
    and that He was seen by Cephas,
    then by the twelve.

    After that He was seen by over five hundred brethren at once, of whom the greater part remain to the present, but some have fallen asleep.

    After that He was seen by James,
    then by all the apostles.

    Then last of all He was seen by me also, as by one born out of due time.
    (1Co 15:3-8 NKJ)

    It is agreed within New Testament studies that St. Paul is quoting something like a Creed. Perhaps the most primitive of all Creeds. And it is signaled with the language of “delivered and received…” they are technical terms for the transmission and content of a tradition (what has been handed on). And there are very solid historical reasons to place the dating of this creed to within about 5 years of the resurrection itself.

    Added to this is St. Paul’s eyewitness statement (which appends to this creed), “Last of all He was seen by me.” It is not hearsay, but eyewitness, written witness of the resurrected Christ.

    And, it is interestingly corroborated by the biography of St. Paul. He admits (in Galatians) that he persecuted the early Christians (which Luke describes in the book of Acts).

    This is the absolute most primitive witness.

    Then we have the gospels. The gospels are written by the Church and for the Church. They are something like a doctrinally-structured account of the life and teachings of Christ, and His death and resurrection appearances. But they are not written like a pure historical fact/report, etc. account. Rather, they are more like the nature of the holy icons.

    Each of the stories has a shape and a function. They are collected and edited. Each gospel has a shape as a whole (and they share some similar material that is shaped by each author).

    The Church recognized and recognizes in them the Gospel of Christ. That is, these books conform to the shape and content of the Apostolic Rule of Faith. These gospels share the story of Christ, seen and remembered and shaped after the resurrection.

    It would be impossible to use them to arrive at “pure history” in the sense of “what actually happened” in any particular instance. Some things seem to have more of a core about them than others. The events of the Passion are quite similar in all 4 gospels (with some important variations).

    But these things are like this, not because there is some faulty memory or corrupted documents. They do precisely what they were written to do. The only fault in using them lies with the users (especially those who do not understand the true nature of the Scriptures).

    There are other letters and writings, all of which agree with the Apostolic Rule of Faith. This same Rule of Faith is also found in writings outside the New Testament that were not included in the Canon for various reasons. Quite important would be the writings of St. Ignatius of Antioch, who knew the Apostles and served as an early bishop of Antioch. He wrote a number of letter himself.

    What we see is a continuity of witness and the rule of faith. That same witness and rule of faith has continued through the ages with consistency.

    Now, just as St. Paul can say, “Last of all he appeared to me…” is something that could be repeated through the centuries by others to whom the resurrected Christ has appeared. I met an Orthodox priest from Indonesia, Fr. Daniel Byantoro, who is a convert from Islam. He converted because the risen Lord appeared to him. But that would count, I suppose, as hearsay.

    None of this says anything about Christians in general. But some Christians in particular, who have faithfully followed the path described by St. Paul, the Apostles, and the Spiritual Fathers through the centuries, find their teachings to be true and reliable.

    This is written as a minimal account, with a maximum level of question or doubt about the facticity of the New Testament. I’m taking your criteria seriously.

  44. mary benton Avatar
    mary benton

    Fr. Stephen –

    I know you wrote this for TLO but I thank you for it. I have so little scholarly knowledge about scripture and this is helpful and concise summary.

  45. fatherstephen Avatar
    fatherstephen

    Mary,
    There would doubtless be many who would give a much more “conservative” account of these things. But I sought to give only the most “reliable” description according to standard historical measures for TLO’s sake. I was trained in the historical/critical method. I found its assumptions about the nature of truth to often be similar to the flatland assumptions of fundamentalism and neither satisfy me. Frankly, if they were the only possible ways of being a Christian, I would have long ago ceased to be one in despair.

    But I walked that dark path (very far) and by God’s grace I found a way out. Holy Orthodoxy, particularly how it understands truth and the nature of history, tradition, etc., to be very liberating and life-giving. There are some who have sought refuge from modernity in Orthodoxy by seeing it as a more complete version of sola scriptura (only now based in the fathers and “holy tradition” etc.). But are actually engaged in the same modern vs. modern struggle that liberals and fundamentalists engage in.

    Orthodoxy is, I think, something completely different. It is that vein of Orthodoxy that I write. Some apparently find it helpful, as it has been to me.

  46. mary benton Avatar
    mary benton

    Fr. Stephen,

    I certainly agree – these descriptions alone would never be enough to lead me to faith. I can never have an experience of Truth through such things – because there will always be someone who will come up with a “logical” argument or present a historical account that contradicts. That is the nature of human beings – what is “proof” to one is folly to another. (The whole creation/evolution topic certainly illustrates that well enough.)

    However, there are times when my logical mind tries to challenge (again) what my heart has known and experienced for many years. It is nice to have things to refer to at such moments.

    It sometimes amazes me how fickle I can be in matters of faith. Even my own profound experiences of God can fade from awareness or seem less relevant, given enough time or distraction. But, of course, that is why I pray and repent. Conversion is ongoing (at least for those as weak as me.)

  47. LTBL Avatar
    LTBL

    TLO

    God is love and will be there for you.

  48. MichaelPatrick Avatar
    MichaelPatrick

    Today’s epistle reading seemed so fitting for Mary’s comment, “at least for those as weak as me.”

    It is from St. Paul’s second letter to those at Corinth (4:6-15):

    Brethren, it is the God who said, “Let light shine out of darkness,” who has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ.

    But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, to show that the transcendent power belongs to God and not to us. We are afflicted in every way, but not crushed; perplexed, but not driven to despair; persecuted, but not forsaken; struck down, but not destroyed; always carrying in the body the death of Jesus, so that the life of Jesus may also be manifested in our bodies. For while we live we are always being given up to death for Jesus’ sake, so that the life of Jesus may be manifested in our mortal flesh. So death is at work in us, but life in you.

    Since we have the same spirit of faith as he had who wrote, “I believed, and so I spoke,” we too believed, and so we speak, knowing that He who raised the Lord Jesus will raise us also with Jesus and bring us with you into His presence. For it is all for your sake, so that as grace extends to more and more people it may increase thanksgiving, to the glory of God.

  49. TLO Avatar
    TLO

    Mary: In my experience, it is neigh on impossible to find anyone who can actually give a “helpful and concise summary” as Fr. Stephen does.

    Thank You Fr. Stephen for providing it and for taking my question seriously.

  50. mary benton Avatar
    mary benton

    Thank you, MichaelPatrick. The RC calendar is different and so I appreciate your bringing this Scripture to me today. I have a love for “earthen vessels”. While I haven’t done it in quite a while, I have sometimes gone by river beds and made simple pots out of the natural clay. It is prayerful experience.

    TLO -how true! Fr. Stephen has been given a great gift and exercises it with a generous heart.

  51. Brian McDonald Avatar
    Brian McDonald

    TLO,

    I’ve been mulling over your “reasonable” for the last few hours and thinking how the Baptismal service asks that the newly-illuminated be a “reason-endowed” member of the flock of Christ. At the heart of Orthodox theology and worship is the conviction that rationality is the great gift of God to human beings, a sign of their being made in the image of God and the thing that distinguishes us from the “speechless” beasts.

    Thus to believe anything against reason is a sin against our very nature (which is no guarantee we won’t commit this sin as we do every other!). On the other hand, to believe BEYOND reason is a requirement of the human condition. I am pretty convinced that a person who’s honest and self-aware has to admit at some point that his most cherished convictions, the “oughts” and “ought nots” he builds his life on will always outstrip the evidence he can bring forward to justify them. As the atheist writer Camus says in the Myth of Sisyphus, science can tell me the earth goes around the sun, but who cares? It can’t tell me how to live life or why I shouldn’t commit suicide. Once I start asking those questions I leave the realm of science and experimental verification and am back with those pesky philosophers and religious types Hawking wants to sweep out of the conversation—and they disagree!

    But if the Resurrection happened, as Fr. Stephen makes so lucidly clear, its very empirical quality settles (or sets aside) a lot of arguments and brings a kind of stupendous clarity.

    Along those I’d be interested if you’d be willing to conduct a thought experiment I tried on myself years ago in my “ex-Christian” days. Pretend for a moment that you don’t know in advance that Christ’s resurrection couldn’t have happened. (I assume this is your position). What would be the implications if it did?

    (I know that thought experiments don’t settle the question of truth, but sometimes the exercise of the rational imagination helps brings a useful lucidity about just what’s at stake in a disputable belief.)

  52. fatherstephen Avatar

    Of course, “reasonable” has to be juxtaposed against “unreasonable.” Is it “unreasonable” (contrary to reason) to believe that the primitive witness of the Christian community, relayed in what is universally considered to be a genuine letter of the Apostle Paul, who lived a life of suffering and eventually died based on his commitment to the truth of what his witness, is true?

    No matter how outrageous the claim (a man was raised from the dead in a transformed form), it is still not “unreasonable” to accept it. It stretches reason to a new place, perhaps. “It seems that there might actually be a God who became a human being, who was killed and who came back to life and said that this event matters.”

    “If there really is a God, then why doesn’t He show me?”

    That’s not an unreasonable question. But perhaps He already has. Is it reasonable to demand that He do it again whenever someone feels a little queasy about accepting the one time He did do it?

    None of this believing is unreasonable. But it changes everything. TLO knows that and respects it so much that the question really matters to him – and I deeply respect that.

    Everyone here should.

  53. LTBL Avatar
    LTBL

    It remains an extraordinary claim, no matter how we slice and dice it. It is contrary to universally accepted ‘normal’ experience, is it not? Of course that in itself is not ‘proof’ that it did not happen.

    But I am not so sure, based on my own experience, that even if I would have been an eye witness to the miracles, to the crucifixion, to the resurrected Jesus, that these events themselves would have taken away my doubts. There’s always some other explanation we can come up with. “Did I really see that?” “Was there a trick involved” “Does it mean what some people say it does?” etc. etc.

    Which raises the question for me, what is it that convinces me to believe anything at all? What proofs do I really need? To believe that Martin Luther was a real person? To believe that Abraham Lincoln is not a fiction of our collective patriotic imagination? Some things we just accept, because they are accepted by all. But to believe that Jesus is God incarnate, this is in a different category altogether. And what good would it be to believe and accept that Jesus is God as I do believe and accept that Abe Lincoln really was a factual person? Christian faith is much more. To believe in Jesus, this requires, at least for me, a personal encounter. At the end of the day I am not interested in history and facts alone.

  54. TLO Avatar
    TLO

    God didn’t really go out of his way to make it any more reasonable, did he?

    * According to Paul, only 500 people saw a post-resurrected Jesus (not a lot, considering) but according to Acts there were only 120 believers after the ascension; so only 24% of those who actually saw him believed? How reasonable would it be for us to believe then?

    * Post-resurrected Jesus didn’t show up in Pilate’s office and say, “OK, so I’m back, clearly. Get some scribes in here and write this down….”

    * Post-resurrected Jesus didn’t show up to Caiaphas and the Sanhedrin and say, “Remember all that stuff I’ve been telling you for the past three years? Now do you believe me? So, listen up while I go over it again. This is important.”

    * Post-resurrected Jesus didn’t show up in Nicaea to quell the bickering and get his church all on the same footing

    In the battle between Reasonable and Unreasonable…

  55. Nathan Avatar
    Nathan

    TLO, I understand how that may seem unreasonable, but even by the words Jesus spoke, it isn’t. He says, “Seek, and you shall find.” The question (from the Orthodox point of view) isn’t, “What should God have done to get these people’s attention?” but rather, “Were they seeking Him?”

  56. LTBL Avatar
    LTBL

    TLO,

    If he had done all those things, would it really convince you? I don’t believe it.

  57. TLO Avatar
    TLO

    Nathan: And the answer from me is “Heck yeah I was seeking! 43 years isn’t long enough or dedicated enough for god to actually reveal himself?”

    Talk about unreasonable.

    LBTL: Yes! Why wouldn’t I? It is evidence that we are after, isn’t it?

  58. Michael Patrick Avatar
    Michael Patrick

    “The Lord passed by, and a great and strong wind tore into the mountains and broke the rocks in pieces before the Lord, but the Lord was not in the wind; and after the wind an earthquake, but the Lord was not in the earthquake; and after the earthquake a fire, but the Lord was not in the fire; and after the fire a still small voice. So it was, when Elijah heard it.”

    I Kings 19

  59. LTBL Avatar
    LTBL

    TLO,

    My point is that the evidence for those events had they occured (i.e. post-resurrected Jesus showing up at Pilate’s office etc.), would not be any different from the evidence we do have for the resurrection! In other words, it alone wouldn’t convince you.

  60. TLO Avatar
    TLO

    Michael: Just as a matter of etiquette, heaving Bible verses at people is not helpful in a discussion that is trying to determine if the core issue (the resurrection and the validity of the Gospel texts) is reasonable.

    Until the one can be established, the rest is meaningless.

  61. TLO Avatar
    TLO

    LTBL: I promised not to argue. But let me ask, if someone came to you and told you that your mother had been part of a drug cartel when she was younger, would you believe them?

    If they provided a picture showing her with a know drug lord, would that convince you? It could be an innocent coincidence, yeah?

    How about if all the people who knew your mother at that time confirmed it?

    The more evidence that one has for something that one is disinclined to believe has a profound impact on the strength of the argument.

  62. LTBL Avatar
    LTBL

    I would ask my mother, and even then she could not be telling the truth.

    What counts as evidence? Some ‘story’ that Jesus appeared to Pilate post-resurrection? (FWIW – according to tradition Pilate – as recorded in the apocryphal (but not heretical) Acts of Pilate and the Gospel of Nicodemus) did become a believer!) Why disbelieve or discount Jesus’ appearance to Saul of Tarsus, post resurrection? Why discount the eye witness accounts of John, of Peter, of the women, of James, and so forth?

  63. TLO Avatar
    TLO

    The thing is, you can ask your mother. Not an option available with god.

  64. LTBL Avatar
    LTBL

    If she were alive I would still need to believe her word for it.

    You keep looking for that extra evidence to convince you.

    And every time someone provides reasonable evidence, you ask for more, raising the requirement for evidence again. And round and round.

    God’s existence cannot be scientifically proven. There’s no scientific, empirical evidence that can be provided to make you believe. You demand evidence that no one can provide.

  65. Dean Avatar
    Dean

    TLO
    Could you please note some of the ways you sought God in that 43 year period? Perhaps you’ve said elsewhere.

  66. LTBL Avatar
    LTBL

    To be consistent, make that same “high bar” for the axiom(s) that you believe.

    What scientific proofs and evidence do you have that God does not exist?

    Please provide me evidence and I will abandon my faith in God at once.

  67. Dino Avatar
    Dino

    TLO,
    I do wonder sometimes if it is good policy to ask that, if God actually avoids an untimely coming to us in His mercy, if He does this to provide us the opportunity to understand the futility of our other ‘gods’ (in freedom from a life-changing appearance of His), to judge ourselves, to understand the value of acceptance of our continent existence, if He avoids it perhaps even in the foreknowledge of our complete rejection of Him shortly afterwards, of our state of soul, which is such that His presence would mean condemnation for our perverted selves; then how else could He have arranged things?

    My personal experience is that He is exactly as apparent as is perfect for me in my faithlessness and exactly as hidden as is perfect for my sinfulness.

    However, I can (unfortunately) allow myself to go down that road of complaining that “it is not so!” (in my folly). I am not saying this applies to you TLO by any means, but I certainly have seen this ‘problem’ in my own past.

  68. Dino Avatar
    Dino

    And it is even easier to believe that His hiddeness/apparentlness is as it should be considering Who it is we are talking about, as D.B. Hart explains in his philosophical terminology

    the one infinite ground of all that is: eternal, omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent, uncreated, uncaused, perfectly transcendent of all things and for that very reason absolutely immanent to all things. God … is neither some particular thing posed over against the created universe, in addition to it, nor is he the universe itself. He is not a being, at least not in the way that a tree, a clock, or a ‘god’ is; he is not one more object in the inventory of things that are. He is the infinite wellspring of all that is, in whom all things live and move and have their being. He may be said to be “beyond being,” if by “being” one means the totality of finite things, but also may be called “being itself,” in that he is the inexhaustible source of all reality, the absolute upon which the contingent is always utterly dependent, the unity underlying all things.

  69. fatherstephen Avatar
    fatherstephen

    TLO,
    Gosh, you can be so…literal with the texts of Scripture. I started off with a minimum of reliability. Now you assume that the 120 in Acts is not only accurate, but inclusive of all who saw the resurrected Lord, which it does not say. I’m presuming the 500 remained.

    But the battle is not between reasonable and unreasonable. God’s not trying to win a popularity contest. Nor is He running for favorite resurrected character in history. He’s transforming us and the whole universe into the fullness of life in Himself. And it is for that reason and that alone that He does what He does.

    So – why didn’t He show up in Pilate’s office. He knew Pilates’s heart. They already had evidence of the resurrection and were bribing people to be quiet. Same with the Sanhedrin. In fact, Nicodemus of the Sanhedrin believed. Joseph of Arimathea of the Sanhedrin believed. Gamaliel of the Sanhedrin, teacher of both Stephen and Paul, eventually became a believer.

    Post-resurrected Jesus has been showing up on the altar of the Church for lo these many years. If they won’t accept Him there (leaders like those in Nicaea) they wouldn’t accept Him in an appearance. The Parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus addresses this: “If they won’t listen to Moses and the Prophets, neither will they believe if someone came back from the dead.”

    But none of that stuff is really the question is it? Is it reasonable to believe that He rose from the dead? If He rose from the dead, then anything else He did would be a moot point, wouldn’t it?

  70. MichaelPatrick Avatar
    MichaelPatrick

    TLO,

    I did not mean to heave a bible passage at you or others. Please accept my apology if that offends.

    Thinking you were still seeking God’s touch, I thought it appropriate and perhaps encouraging to note that he sometimes comes with a comparatively small and personal word. And reflecting on the recent direction of questions and comments, the passage also speaks about big vs small phenomena wherein he might be found. In this passage, for example, the small voice is how God choose to speak and be heard. Does he get to chose or must we set the terms of his appearances?

    Again, I’m sorry if this misses the point.

  71. TLO Avatar
    TLO

    LBTL:

    What scientific proofs and evidence do you have that God does not exist?

    If you don’t see the flaw in the question, nothing I can say will help you.

    You keep looking for that extra evidence to convince you. And every time someone provides reasonable evidence, you ask for more, raising the requirement for evidence again. And round and round.

    The question posed was this:

    What irrefutable evidence can anyone present that the texts are accurate and factual?

    Fr. Stephen gave an excellent accounting for the factuality of the resurrection which relies upon the texts and traditions of the church as well as the lives of the martyrs.

    I am asking about the texts themselves. Once they are established, the resurrection is also proven.

    No one has yet presented any reasonable evidence to support that the texts are accurate and factual.

    Most modern scholars hold that the canonical Gospel accounts were written between four to eight decades after the crucifixion. Many scholars have pointed out that the Gospel of Mark shows signs of a lack of knowledge of geographical, political and religious matters in Judea in the time of Jesus.

    What baffles me most is the complete lack of any texts from any disinterested third party writers to support the amazing claims of the Gospel texts.

    As Fr. Stephen said, it is a discussion of Reasonable vs. Unreasonable.

  72. LTBL Avatar
    LTBL

    No sorry I don’t see the flaw in my question, please explain.

  73. fatherstephen Avatar
    fatherstephen

    TLO,
    On the texts. As I noted, the Gospels are not the texts to look at for historical questions. They are liturgical texts. There’s plenty of history in them, but it’s surrounded and shaped by a doctrinally ruled reading of history. And this doesn’t trouble me in the least. It’s fundamentalists of varying stripe who try to make them what they are not that bug me.

    But. The text of St. Paul’s 1 Corinthians is not in dispute. It is written somewhere within the 50’s A.D. at the latest. It is universally accepted as being from the hand of St. Paul and there are no significant textual or manuscript issues with the passage in question.

    The passage in question, again, is agreed to reflect an eye-witness shaped Creed of the primitive Church, probably Jerusalem (some scholars think that the original of the passage – which is clearly being quoted by Paul was in Aramaic – there’s a grammatical case to be made for that). That “Creedal” statement is placed, at the latest in the mid-40’s A.D. – only one decade after the event itself. And most scholars think that it belongs to the first three years after the event.

    It comes very close – reasonably close – to an eyewitness statement from the time of the event itself.

    The Gospels represent the Church’s telling of the Christ story in a manner, as St. John says, “These things are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, and that believing you might have eternal life.” The Gospels not only relay the event of the resurrection, but do so in the context of a story that itself represents the Church’s mature reflection on the meaning of Christ’s death and resurrection.

    And that reflection – echoed in St. Paul’s writings – clearly represents what the 12 – those who were with Jesus and were the core of those who saw His resurrection – believed, taught and relayed to others.

    This is still the Orthodox faith today. That same doctrine and teaching. But the Gospels are “Churchly” documents.

    I’m not surprised by the lack of “disinterested” texts. There are “interested” texts from opponents. Those (some echoed in Jewish documents) that say precisely what the gospels say – they do not deny that the tomb was empty. That they accept. But they allege that the disciples “stole” the body. The gospels note that this was said. If you will, the gospels confirm what the third party says.

    There is a letter written by Pliny the Younger, a Roman governor of Bithynia, around the year 96 a.d., to the Emperor Trajan, wondering about what to do with the Christians he’s arrested and tortured. He said they admitted under torture to coming together on a certain day before daybreak and “singing hymns to Christ (which he treats as a name) as to a God.” It’s an undisputed letter. It confirms in detail what we know from other sources (St. Ignatius of Antioch) that are contemporary to it.

    What we have is a clear agreement from all surrounding non-Christian sources, that the Christian community was just like it continued to say it was (and not like Protestants imagined some 1400 years and more later). Orthodox Christianity goes back to the very beginning and has been saying the same thing for 2000 years.

    In hindsight – its detractors probably wish they had written something or other – but everyone would have expected it to go away. After all, Jesus was only one of many so-called “Messiahs” at the time. None of them came to anything at all. And that’s another strange witness to the resurrection. It not only is said to have happened in a document that can reasonably be placed to the time of its eyewitnesses, but the reflections that flowed from that event, became not a weird fluke in Greco-Roman culture, but the utter beauty of true Christianity.

    Now, is it reasonable to think that a bunch of fisherguys would have managed to invent Christianity? Really? Now that start getting unreasonable.

    When I read the Book of Mormon, and someone says it’s a fraud, you know – it reads exactly like a fraud – in fact, it reads exactly like a 19th century American fraud – with everything I would expect. The most reasonable thing in the world is to believe that Joseph Smith was a fraud and a liar. And his stuff is weird, kinky, etc.

    But this is something quite different.

    That Christianity is the truth – based on a true event, etc. – is quite reasonable. That it’s followers have messed it up from time to time (Protestantism, etc.) is also completely reasonable.

  74. Brian McDonald Avatar
    Brian McDonald

    I don’t know how to do the neat quote box thing others use, so just let me put a remark of your remarks in quotes, Fr. Stephen and respond to it.

    Quote 1: “Of course, ‘reasonable’ has to be juxtaposed against ‘unreasonable.’ Is it ‘unreasonable’ (contrary to reason) to believe that the primitive witness of the Christian community, relayed in what is universally considered to be a genuine letter of the Apostle Paul, who lived a life of suffering and eventually died based on his commitment to the truth of what his witness, is true?”

    No I don’t believe it’s unreasonable. Let me clarify my remark that beliefs not against reason may go beyond it. Something like the “ground zero” event of the Resurrection can never be proven. Every time I advance a “sic,” a perfectly reasonable human like TLO can counter with a “non.” In making judgments about the validity of the apostles’ claim, we’re more like a jury having to render a verdict on debatable evidence than a scientist looking to “clinch” a hypothesis under conditions of controlled and reduplicatable experiment. Juries and judges may be wrong, and reasonable humans may disagree about their verdicts; but there are a number of issues in history and in real life that call for a decision on the more uncertain ground of “legal” rather than “scientific” evidence. As the need for decision outruns the “proof” that decision is correct, it goes beyond reason though not against it.

    But by “beyond reason,” I think I also meant something else. In the end a good juror or judge may finally be influenced by something we might call an “instinct” for truth that makes one reading of the evidence seem more plausible than another. Similarly, if our hearts “burn within us” when we hear the story of the risen Christ, it might be because it satisfies a certain deep instinct for truth. It may be our “nous” our heart, naturally burns for God when as Augustine says, we’re in ourselves instead of outside ourselves. This may be sheer delusions; on the other hand if we were in fact made in the image of God and find our true being only communion with God, this burning is what we should expect.

  75. fatherstephen Avatar
    fatherstephen

    Brian,
    I agree. I frequently do things that are “beyond reason” now. But I’m responding to a reasonable request from TLO, and keeping the answer limited. Once beginning with reason, we may move elsewhere. It’s like marriage. 🙂

  76. Brian Avatar
    Brian

    “Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, to the mountain which Jesus had appointed for them. When they saw Him, they worshiped Him; but some doubted.”

    Albeit far from irrefutable proof, it cannot be denied that the Gospels and the Acts have an odd character about them. The ‘heroes’ of the stories – Peter (brash, sometimes stupid, and denier); James (the brother of the Lord about whom it is written that even his own brethren did not believe in him); Paul (arch-enemy of believers), etc. are portrayed in such negative light.

    “..but some doubted”…even though they were disciples and are said to have seen Him with their own eyes. Strange words to read in the Gospel – even for believing Christians.

  77. fatherstephen Avatar
    fatherstephen

    Yes. And the right question is to ask how the stories fit the needs of the community in which they’re written. The stories of the gospels most certainly represent the collected stories of the primitive community – they share a great deal in common (with the exception of John).

    St. Paul like shte word “gospel” (it’s among his favorites). Do you ever wonder what he meant by the word? “My gospel” he calls it. It is certainly the basic account of Christ’s resurrection and what it means – the theological interpretation – which is already amazingly well-developed.

    But it would certainly have included a “gospel,” an account of the life of Jesus. St. Paul also knows (verbatim) the story of the Last Supper (he quotes it as a tradition he has received earlier in the same Corinthian letter). He also knows a saying of Jesus not found in any of the gospels (“it’s better to give than to receive” – a statement that fits well with the other sayings of Christ in the gospels). St. Paul clearly knows and relates a “gospel.” We should also assume that the same can be said of any of the other apostles (the 12, the 70, and missionaries such as Timothy and Titus, Luke, etc. that were in the company of St. Paul). What we have as written gospels represent, I think we can say with great confidence, the kind of “gospels” that were taught by all the apostles.

    St. Paul has a very interesting phrase in his letter to second letter to Timothy:

    Hold fast the pattern of sound words which you have heard from me, in faith and love which are in Christ Jesus. (2Ti 1:13 NKJ)

    “Pattern” is a word similar to that used for the rule of faith. It is more, I think, than a collection of theological ideas – it is the Rule of Faith – the basic gospel – the structured relating of the story of Jesus.

    These same “patterns” are what we see in the 4 gospels. The Church accepted them because it heard in them what it had always heard – the same “pattern” of the apostolic preaching. When you look at the 2nd century examples of “Gnostic gospels” the pattern is radically different. It is not the same Jesus at all and the point of the stories is all skewed.

    But there are “odd” things as well – the “and some doubted” always strikes me oddly. It’s not the sort of thing you say if you’re worried about writing a gospel that you’re afraid that people won’t believe. You only include that if there are some within your hearers who don’t believe but should be ashamed of themselves. It’s “preaching” attached to the gospels. Or at least that’s my take on it.

    Historical studies, if well done, do not undermine the gospels. They reinforce it. The fathers of the 7th Council said that “icons do with color what Scripture does with words.” I think that is quite precisely the case.

    But there are some who are deeply afraid of historical questions – but that is – I think – where the doubters are to be found. The writer of the gospel (Matthew’s in this case) had no fear. He knew. He believed. He wrote what he had received.

  78. mary benton Avatar
    mary benton

    Thank you, again, Fr. Stephen, for your additional summary at 5:58 PM today. I appreciate the depth of your scholarship – surely a help to all of us.

    I too respect TLO’s quest. Accepting or denying the Resurrection is perhaps the most important decision of anyone’s life. He is wise to take it seriously.

  79. TLO Avatar
    TLO

    the Gospels are not the texts to look at for historical questions… There’s plenty of history in them, but it’s surrounded and shaped by a doctrinally ruled reading of history.

    Historical studies, if well done, do not undermine the gospels. They reinforce it.

    But there are some who are deeply afraid of historical questions. The writer of the gospel had no fear. He knew. He believed. He wrote what he had received.

    I give up.

    The proof of the resurrection boils down to the fact that Christianity survived. Hinduism, Buddhism and Judaism are all much older than Christianity and have all survived though great turmoil. They all have their martyrs and holy men and traditions. These are not proofs of anything except that people are religious.

    One cannot look at Christianity objectively. One must accept the premise and (if they even bother with history) they must interpret history based on that premise (and traditions).

    There is and can be no evidence. None except what one chooses to call evidence. If one chooses the writings of the great men and martyrs of Islam, then that will be his truth and all history will seem to make sense through the lens of that truth. If one chooses to look at the pattern of the rise and fall of gods and myths and concludes that myths are, well, myths, there is nothing that one can say or do to persuade him that their particular philosophy is something more than a myth.

  80. TLO Avatar
    TLO

    LTBL:

    What scientific proofs and evidence do you have that God does not exist?

    No sorry I don’t see the flaw in my question, please explain.

    It is impossible to prove a negative.

    It is like asking for scientific proof that there is no invisible padylwampus.

  81. LTBL Avatar
    LTBL

    “It is impossible to prove a negative.” – That assertion of course is a negative.

    Here’s a negative that can be proven: a proposition can’t be both true and untrue.

    But now we are arguing and I had enough of it, this “conversatation” ain’t going nowhere fast.

    All the best.

  82. Dino Avatar
    Dino

    TLO,
    by comparing Hinduism, Buddhism and Judaism to Christianity, you are revealing that your understanding of Christianity is not the same as that of the true Orthodox Christianity but that of the secular or perhaps the protestant deviation of it.
    I see man talking about God in Hinduism, Buddhism, even in Judaism, and all other religions. Some have faired well and others haven’t. The majority of those that faired well made ‘sense’ as an ideology, and their founders usually showed signs of great humility, as did many of the great thinkers of all times. Socrates, Lao, Comfukius, Moses, Mohamed etc. have many sayings I won’t quote here, demonstrating their comprehension that they were nothing compared to God. Rightly so, since they were men speaking of gods.
    However, why do you compare Christ’s Revelation (religion is not the best word if we understand religion as man talking on God) with these while bypassing His striking differences to these…?
    He, the humblest of all in practice says things about Himself (e.g. you will die if you do not eat ME) that no-one else dared say and yet become a founder of a many thousand-year lasting religion.
    Also, his disciples never martyred (as you say of other religions) due to an ideology (that of love your neighbour and your God). They died as witnesses/martyrs of the resurrection. Yes, that is the only fact they died for – not an ideology. We should ponder on that!

  83. davidp Avatar

    I am not adding anything to the debate but saw this on C-Span that was broadcast earlier in Feb 2014. It is abit long so you can come back to it and start where you left off.

    http://www.c-span.org/video/?317578-1/evolution-versus-creationism-debate

  84. Silouan Avatar
    Silouan

    Dino,

    Please provide a reference for your quote from David Bentley Hart. I would like to learn more about the author and his works.

    Thank you,

    Silouan

  85. fatherstephen Avatar
    fatherstephen

    TLO,
    Hinduism and Buddhism do not make any historical assertions with which I disagree. Islam is afraid to allow historical questioning of its primary documents – but most such examinations reveal problems that make the New Testament appear rock solid by comparison. If you examined these things reasonably, which you have just abandoned with sweeping platitudes, you’d likely agree.

    But a lot of what you’re saying is, “I don’t want to deal with anything that has a history because history is unreliable!”

    Frankly, the “I’ve been seeking for 40 something years” sounds less plausible. You’re not seeking now – I’m not sure how to describe what you’re doing, but it’s not about seeking. “Show me a sign” and “Prove you’re God,” are not the same thing as seeking.

  86. Dino Avatar
    Dino

    Silouan,
    you can find it here in it’s entirety:
    http://afkimel.wordpress.com/2013/05/30/god-gods-and-fairies/

  87. mary benton Avatar
    mary benton

    TLO, if I might add a word to Fr. Stephen’s…

    In some time past, I believe I recommended to you a prayer that I said at an earlier time in my life: “God, if you exist, help me to know you.” This is a seeking prayer – not expecting that God should meet me on my terms or satisfy my demands for how He should respond.

    To me the prayer had value because it was not me seeking the god of my making (the god I wanted to exist) but an opening to the true God, should there be one. I figured it did not hurt to ask – if there is no God, I would not be any worse off for the asking. If there is a God, then I will learn from Him in a manner consistent with His infinite wisdom.

    My experience has been that this prayer has been answered, over and over and in many ways, for decades. This has been more valuable than one dramatic revelation. If I had been granted a vision of Christ, for example, I would not have known whether to trust it – am I just hallucinating?, etc. But the ongoing experience of God makes it harder for me to deny the reality of my experience.

    If you haven’t tried the prayer over an extended period of time, I would invite you to do so. If you find that you don’t want to pray it, I would invite you to reflect upon why not. These reflections are offered out of genuine concern for you. Blessings.

  88. Dino Avatar
    Dino

    TLO,
    This is perhaps slightly off the main topic, but, when you say,

    “There is and can be no evidence. None except what one chooses to call evidence.”

    I take it, that if you are researching the matter of the Christian faith –most especially the matter of the indisputability of the resurrection- you are only researching it (conceivably unintentionally), to reassure your mind’s denial of faith. I could be wrong, but it comes across like that from the way you default back to the methods of reasoning that cannot be convinced by anything.
    I call it researching because, as Father Stephen mentioned, one cannot depict that as seeking, just as he said that one cannot honorably think of, “Show me a sign” or “Prove you’re God,” as genuine ‘seeking’ either. However, at the same time, I trust that inside of each person, inside the hidden depths of yours and everyone’s beautiful heart of hearts lies a qualitatively very different sort of faith -to what our minds perceive as ‘faith’.

    Not towards you personally but to everyone, I would go so far as to boldly claim that there is not one person that lacks this kind of faith, even if one clearly believes themself to be a wholeheartedly convinced, staunch atheist. You, and I, and everyone, might not exactly be consciously cognizant of this ‘depth’. Just as I am not altogether aware of what is going on in those depths of my heart -hidden even from me.

    There is a periphery of all sorts of ‘stuff’, around this core (habitually more vividly felt than the deep core). It’s what ascetics “of the deep heart” would unassumingly call darkness. Forgive my mentioning Christian ascetics yet again, but if there is someone on this earth that becomes ‘all conscience’ without anything unconscious going on inside of them, then these particular kinds of ascetics I have in mind (what Orthodoxy defines as ‘Hesychasts’) come the closest to it – it is perhaps what, in practice, they are about the most…
    Psychology sometimes also speaks of these outer layers of the “heart” (well, “outer” only in relation to the very core I am alluding to here), as a sort of exoskeleton of: first ‘interests’, then ‘desires’, then ‘aversions’, then (deeper still) ‘worries’ and insecurities, etc. etc. until finally one reaches the soul’s deepest desire. This desire (the desire of human nature) is always for an undying, eternal peace, joy and love. Many think that this must be out there somewhere or else why do I even conceive such a thing in such a peculiar way… Even consciously, numerous people would occasionally say this is what they think they desire most, although, in reality we know very little of this accurately, even if we suspect it very strongly.
    This ‘desire’ is also, at an even profounder depth, an almost instinctive knowledge of a soul’s Creator, it’s redeemer, it’s Life-giver.
    But… the mind’s ‘atheism’, (as well as the mind’s unrestricted roaming) and the outer heart’s ‘enslavements’, (as well as their unrestricted reign) is threatened by this deep core – which cannot be ‘an unbeliever’.
    That would be like saying to the mind: ‘look! Here is an effect of a certain cause; which does not actually have a cause, causing it!’ The intellect will laugh at this and will not believe it. Just like the heart of heart’s of every man and woman, deeper than all distractions, desires, terrors, desolations, weaknesses, if it could somehow be asked about its ‘faith’ directly -as a small child buried inside the unfathomable depths of one’s soul whose voice can somehow bypass the mind’s bowdlerization – it would instinctively admit unshakeable faith.
    And a comprehension of my sometimes clandestine, sometimes palpable, sometimes suppressed and other times coerced internal ‘civil’ war, the schism between this depth and almost everything else, is inevitable.

  89. TLO Avatar
    TLO

    I don’t want to deal with anything that has a history because history is unreliable!

    Quite the opposite Father. I have an enormous respect for history. The reason that John Adams is my favorite of the founding fathers is because of the presentation of historical documents including letters among his friends and family members, diary entries by the man and by people surrounding his life, and so on. What is known as a result of those documents paints a picture of a man who I can respect and admire. And there are similar writings about other’s of that era against which to contrast him.

    I like Truman and Lincoln just fine and I have reservations about Franklin and Jefferson, all for similar reasons. Their lives are well documented and often their personal views and recordings of events are documented as well.

    There are many things about Gandhi that I like (and a few things that trouble me) because I have read his words and I have read documents that have been backed up by news articles and whatnot.

    My issue is that there is nothing remotely close to such documents with regards to the person that is supposed to be the central figure of history. No personal writings. No “news” or records from anyone during his lifetime.

    I’m not looking for photographs or anything. But come on. The book of Mark is full of simple geopolitical errors. If we accept that Luke is even written by Luke, at best it is second-hand information. And the earliest of these writings came no earlier than 40 years after the alleged events?

    I accept that you have no problem with these issues and that other factors play into your convictions. But to me, I could not think of a more incompetent manner to go about ensuring that this most important message in history was recorded and handed down. It’s just plain irresponsible. No event planner worth his salt would be this ambiguous and careless. I cannot find it in myself to think so poorly of whatever god there may be.

    Dino:

    you are only researching it (conceivably unintentionally), to reassure your mind’s denial of faith

    Nope. Have you talked to any Evangelicals lately? Well I have and let me tell you that you will never find a more muttonheaded bunch of people when it comes to discussing their faith or understanding anyone outside of it. To them, any outsider is an enemy destined for hell, an amoral twat who only denies god so that he can indulge in sin, yada yada yada.

    TBH, I have frequently recommended to these people to investigate the Early Church Fathers and origins of the church,not as a tactic but because I’d prefer that there were only Orthodox Christians.

    I came here to get to the core of the issue, one thing that I could present to these people who have been telling me that I am doomed to eternal torment that would keep them on track and on point. So I came to the smartest Christians I know.

    TBH, I needed an approach to discussions with these people that would allow me to avoid anger and a feeling of malice. I have very little patience for pat answers and idiotic challenges like “prove that there is no god” or arrogant condemnation like “you were never a true Christian.” I wanted to learn from you all so that I could keep my cool, not hate those people, and have an intelligent discussion with them.

    It is true that I don’t like the term “faith” the way that religious people employ it, and for very good reason. It has been warped and twisted by so many people of so many religions and is so nebulous that to me it is a beaker full of poison gas. I have witnessed too much suffering by good people at the hands of religious “leaders” in the name of “faith.”

    I have a great respect for faith that is based on something that can be consistently demonstrated. That’s what I hoped to find here.

    I have faith that the human brain works in ways that can be verified and demonstrated. (for example, I have faith that the human brain is constantly reconstructing a person’s memory and that our personal histories contain a great deal of fiction, whether we like it or not.)

    I have faith that word-of-mouth is by far the absolute worst method of conveying any message and that by the fifth person it will be entirely wrong.

    I have faith in lots of things, so long as there is good reason to have faith in them.

    -Pax

  90. MichaelPatrick Avatar
    MichaelPatrick

    TLO,

    Even if you could find convincing documents in witness to the historicity of Jesus Christ and his ministry on earth you’d find –with that kind of inquiry– nothing more than an artifact out of the past.

    We are designed to participate in God’s life now and that’s probably why He doesn’t bother much to convince skeptical minds. Christians have an eros that drives them to reach out to God knowing he is beyond their natural reach. Presenting yourself to God so He can communicate with you is not optional to be touched. Like a marriage, it takes a commitment to the end to God as a person. Not a historical record.

    If you will not taste and see you will not taste and see.

    Said with love and peace,
    Michael

  91. mary benton Avatar
    mary benton

    TLO,

    Fr. Stephen wrote above: “The text of St. Paul’s 1 Corinthians is not in dispute. It is written somewhere within the 50′s A.D. at the latest. It is universally accepted as being from the hand of St. Paul and there are no significant textual or manuscript issues with the passage in question.”

    Since Jesus is believed to have died between 30 and 32 AD, something written in the 50’s AD is more like 20-25 years after the event. This is considerably less than the “40 years” you cite above. I also doubt that the first reaction to those who encountered the risen Christ was to sit down and write a book about it.

    Paul was traveling extensively to share the Good News with others and wrote letters to some of the people who came to believe because of him (as I understand it). He also obviously lived in a time when when written records were not nearly so common, sturdy and readily preserved as during the time of Lincoln and the others whose histories you accept. To expect there to be something similar from the time of Jesus doesn’t make a lot of sense to me. I think it is quite extraordinary that there are undisputed texts from contemporaries of Jesus – someone must have considered them quite valuable.

    I am not writing all of this to you to be argumentative but rather to suggest (as others have) that you seem to be approaching this quest for information with some bias toward finding it inadequate. As you note, human memory and constructions of history are often unreliable. So you request the historical data related by people but, when you receive them, shoot them down on this basis. Hmm…

    Are you truly seeking the Truth? I hope so. I again extend my invitation, posted at 1:35 PM. (Of course, I don’t expect you to respond to it publicly. But you are welcome to e-mail me.)

  92. TLO Avatar
    TLO

    Michael:

    If you will not taste and see you will not taste and see.

    can be translated:

    One must accept the premise and (if they even bother with history) they must interpret history based on that premise (and traditions).

    I know you think you mean more than this but I was in that seeking=God-with-all-your-heart mode for most of my life. No god showed up. You can draw your own conclusions as to why, but it was not for my lack of trying.

    Hi Mary!

    I was speaking in particular about the testimony of those who claimed to have lived with Jesus for three years. First-person accounts.

    Anything offered by Paul has to be second-hand at best. That Paul believed what he stated is not an issue for me.

    Khalid al-Mihdhar truly believed to the death as well.

    While martyrdom is extraordinary, it is not proof of the validity of one’s beliefs. Sometimes it’s just sad and leaves us wondering why.

  93. LTBL Avatar
    LTBL

    TLO are you an atheist or agnostic?

  94. MichaelPatrick Avatar
    MichaelPatrick

    “One must accept the premise and (if they even bother with history) they must interpret history based on that premise (and traditions).”

    Yes.

  95. Dino Avatar
    Dino

    TLO,
    you mention Khalid al-Mihdhar as a martyr compared to the disciples. How can I suspect you have not decided beforehand that you will not accept the evidence for Christ’s resurrection, seeing that you brush over the key point again? which is this: the apostles were martyred as witnesses to the resurrection, to a fact, all these other martyrs (you keep ignoring) were martyred as believers in an ideology. Delusion can enter ideology, but the apostles, the first-hand witnesses of his resurrection, did not die for the ideology of love your niegbour, they died as witnesses of the resurrection.
    And as Mary pointed out, we accept a great deal of history with far less written proof than Christ’s life on earth has, I am sure you know how extremely difficult it was to write anything down up to a few hundred years ago… and we do have ample sources ( that I worry you are armed and loaded to discredit from the start), why mix and match criteria in such a way? does that not approach irrational distrust in the name of rationality?

  96. Mule Chewing Briars Avatar

    When I was a young man, I had a friend who was married to a promiscuous woman. His wife was beautiful but troubled, and she liked to sleep with other men. Most of my friends slept with her, but when she propositioned me, I turned her down out of loyalty to my friend and some ill-remembered lessons from Sunday School.

    But I wanted to. I wanted to very badly.

    Years later I read in the Gospels that Jesus said, if any of you have looked at a women and desired her, you have committed adultery in your hearts. When I read that, it shattered my image of myself as a “good” man who didn’t sleep with his friends’ wives.

    Like you, I had the same sorts of hesitations about the career and historicity of Jesus, but although I had read the Upanishads, the Koran, the Tao-Teh-Ching and many other spiritual works, nothing compared to the moral clarity of the teachings of Jesus. In a way, it was kind of an ontological argument. I knew instinctively that I was in the presence of not just greatness, as was the case when I read Homer and Virgil, but Divinity.

    If Jesus was nothing more than a literary character, then somehow God had become a literary character. Only God could have said the things attributed to Jesus of Nazareth. However, since real human beings are superior to literary characters, it folllowed to me that Jesus had to have been a real human being.

    You’re right in one thing. You’ll never find the documentary evidence of sufficient rigor to establish without reasonable grounds for doubt the career of the founder of Christianity. It doesn’t exist. What Father said is also true, though, that the foundations of Christianity are better anchored in history than those of other creeds, but that isn’t what you want. So go your way, be thou warmed and fed, and have a good, long, and prosperous life. I wish you well.

    Maybe I’m a gullible rube, the delight of salesmen and grifters the world over There is ample evidence to support that proposition. I just didn’t need the same level of verification that you appear to. I needed Jesus. I just find it difficult to believe that if you have been seeking Him for 40 years you haven’t found Him. It seems out of character for Him to me.

  97. fatherstephen Avatar
    fatherstephen

    Paul, “second hand at best.” But what Paul offers here is “what was given to him.” And who gave it to him? In Galatians Paul speaks of spending 15 days with Cephas (Peter) in Jerusalem and meeting with James (brother of the Lord). And again of meeting with the 12 some 14 years after that.

    This is, by historical standards, incredibly reliable evidence. You can choose not to believe it for whatever reason. But as historical evidence goes it is astounding – in fact, almost no other ancient event comes even close to this for evidence. It’s incredibly reasonable. What is not reasonable is your unwillingness to consider it.

  98. mary benton Avatar
    mary benton

    In addition to Fr. Stephen’s comment, Paul had a rather extraordinary first-person encounter with the risen Christ. One can choose to discount that – as we can choose to discount anything we don’t want to believe – but to me, his experience was powerful and convincing. Others witnessed the consequences of it – his resulting blindness and recovery of sight – and more importantly, his sudden and complete change in heart. He who was persecuting the early believers began preaching what he sought to destroy. Why else would he have done this and gone to the extremes that he did to spread this message?

  99. Brian McDonald Avatar
    Brian McDonald

    TLO,

    Re Your quote: “Have you talked to any Evangelicals lately? Well I have and let me tell you that you will never find a more muttonheaded bunch of people when it comes to discussing their faith or understanding anyone outside of it. To them, any outsider is an enemy destined for hell, an amoral twat who only denies god so that he can indulge in sin, yada yada yada.”

    Which Evangelicals have you talked to? This kind of wholesale scapegoating of an entire group is unworthy of someone whose posts have generally seemed those of a serious thinker. You remind me of an anecdote about a man moving into a town who asked a long time resident what people were like here. He replied, “Well, tell me what they’re like in your old town? “O, they’re terrible. Gossipers, full lf malice, stab you in the back on a dime.” The old-timer nodded sadly: “I’m afraid they’re like that here, too.” A week later, a another man moved into town and asked the old resident the same question, receiving the same request. “Oh,” the newcomer said, “They were the sweetest, kindest, most helpful people you could find.” The old-timer smiled and said, “Well, that’s pretty much what they’re like in this town, too.”

    I believe the term for this is “observer bias.” We have a narrative that makes sure we see only what fits that narrative. So let me turn your diatribe inside out: “Have you talked (or tried to) with any atheists lately? Well I have, and let me tell that you will never find a more arrogant group of ignoramuses. Thinking that atheism automatically makes them brilliant, they swallow wholesale the most amazing disinformation about, say, the New Testament documents. Ten minutes of Internet research on what reputable scholars and historians actually say could cure this illiteracy, but they’ve read the witticisms of Christopher Hitchens and don’t need to waste their time with real scholars. And talk about nasty attitude if you disagree!. Yada Yada Yada.

    Now I imagine your gorge was rising reading this description, but I assure you it pretty well fits a lot of people whose rants I’ve read in the blog world as well as some folks I know in real life.

    But obviously it’s grossly unfair as a wholesale description of every agnostic or atheist. Some people have actually thought their way into unbelief just as some people have actually thought their way into belief. And those people are the most likely to be complex and charitable in their dealings with others. I think you could find intelligent, articulate, and charitable evangelicals. I wonder how hard you’re looking?

  100. Robert Bearer Avatar
    Robert Bearer

    Dear to Christ, all. This discussion just goes on and on. I so appreciate Father’s wisdom and insight and patience, as well as contributions by Dino, Mary and many others. As St. Athanasios tells us the witness of the martyrs to the Resurrection, the joy with which they faced death and looked forward to life, is a testimony to the Truth–and as Dino says they did not give their live for an ideology but out of love, in hope and in faithfulness to the One they loved because they had come to know that He loved them and this very One was still alive and still loving them–the same yesterday, today and forever. What else could they do save love Him in return–and each other?

    I do regret that Catholic and Evanglicals have been somewhat unfairly mocked and slandered during some of our dicta. A close and careful examinatin of history will show that much of the blame for his treament by the powers that then were falls on Galileo and not on his erstwhile friend, Pope Urban VIII or “the Catholic Church.” We really need to be careful what kind of agenda-driven history we read. Why it was only in college that I learned that the great Galileo had NOT proven that heavey and light things fall at the same rate by dropping balls off the bell tower in Pisa.

    Regarding the dating the Gospels also, we need to take care. Not every reputable scholar holds that they were not written until 40 or 50 years after the fact. J.A.T Robinson wrote in his last book (published after his death) that core of St. John’s Gospel appears to have been written BEFORE A.D. 40 (even though it was edited and expanded by him in his waning years at Ephesus half a century later.

    Moreover, my own mentor, Rev. Dr. Robert Lindsey, Ph. D. Princeton (Classics) after ordination and appointment to pastor the Narkis Street Church in Jerusalem (this was about 1948), later came (with others) to dispute the majority view that St. Mark’s Gospel is the earliest we have and wasn’t written until A.D. 70 0r 80. In fact, Lindsey, believing this to be the case, and wanting to produce a Hebrew translation for use in Israel, found it rather difficult to render from Greek to Hebrew. However, lo and behold, when he attempted the same thing with St. Luke’s Gospel he found large and numerous sections that could be rendered word for word. Later, he found the an even greater ease when working with St. Matthew’s Gospel in those parts which are called the double tradition (i.e. pericopes which are common to Matthew and Mark but not Luke). This should not have been surprising since Papias had told us that St. Matthew wrote down the Lord’s sayings first in the Hebrew tongue and each one translated as he could. Working evangelical and Jewish scholars connected with the Hebrew University in Jersuslem, Lindsey concludes that of the Gospels we have today, Luke’s was compiled and written first and probably within a few years after the Resurrection in A.D. 33, and that Mark’s came next in time and is the “cause” of certain differences in the triple tradition and Matthew’s, which (as we have it) was finished last of the Synoptics. I think we should also remember that in any case, Matthew was an apostle, John Mark (in whose mother’s house the Last Supper may have been held) as a cousin of St. Barabas and an assistant to him, to St. Paul and to St. Peter, and his Gospel and St. John’s bear many similarities; St. Luke was one of the 70 and a confidant of our Lady the Theotokos, and St. John was, of course, an Apostle and the one to whom her care was entrusted by our Lord from the Cross. These people knew and loved their Lord–both before and after the Resurrection and they knew how He and that climactic event had transforme their lives and the trauma and joy itself would have seared in their memories the things which they had experienced and the unbreakable relationship for which they were thereafter to commit and give their lives.

    My prayer is that each of you and I may be likewise blessed and likewise faithful giving thanks and glory to God for all things.

    How wonderful it is that Christ is in our midst.
    rlb

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