In Hell with the Soul

I have studiously avoided online debates regarding an eternal hell and the punishment of the wicked. I do not plan to change that avoidance with this article. However, I believe that hell is important within Christian believing, though not for the purpose that most imagine. The famous dictum of St. Silouan is worth noting:

“Keep your mind in hell and despair not.”

Most discussions of hell (online and elsewhere) become entangled in its supposed juridical character. Hell, in this view, is a place of punishment. It is the pronouncement of justice. The cry for justice, it is suggested, requires hell as an answer.

I recall the words of St. Isaac of Syria:

“We know nothing of God’s justice, only His mercy.”

With that in mind, I will leave the juridical framework for heaven and hell for others to ponder. For myself, I know only God’s mercy.

The Psalmist says it well:

“Lo, if I descend into hell, Thou art there.”

How can the Psalmist say such a thing? It is only possible because the Psalmist himself has stood in that very place. He speaks of what he knows and what he has seen. And this conversation that he has with Christ (“Thou”) is spoken to us because we, too, have been there, or, we are there, now.

If we lay aside the juridical framework of hell for a moment, and consider it in terms of being and existence (an ontological framework), then hell becomes the name of our non-existence. It is our non-existence in its relative separation from God.

Consider this quote:

In our tradition, when the human being stands in front of God, he invariably sees himself as dust and ashes. This death then is the existential realization or experience of the fact that he is a speck of dust. Indeed, he is a speck of dust with whom God has fallen in love madly, to which he bows, which he becomes. Nevertheless, all human beings of all times, all who have ever lived and all who will ever live, amount precisely to nothing. (From The Life of Our Fathers, Fr. Silviu Bunta.)

St. Athanasius makes a similar point in his De Incarnatione. Our nature, he holds, is rooted in nothingness. We exist only as gift. Apart from God we begin to move towards the nothing from which we came. That movement, ontologically speaking, can be described as hell. It is from hell that we turn to God in repentance. Consider this:

…metanoia or “repentance,” comes down to the manner in which one relates to his/her life, or more acutely, to how one relates to his/her powerlessness, suffering, and death. With metanoia this relationship switches from being sustained and governed by the ego to being sustained and written by Christ’s life and death. (Bunta, Ibid.)

This repentance is imaged for us in the icon of Christ’s Descent into Hades that is commonly displayed at Pascha. In it, Christ rescues Adam and Eve from their bondage in hell. The icon is not a historical depiction as such. But it shows the action of Christ in His Pascha. Adam and Eve are the whole of humanity. St. Silouan wrote the poem, “Adam’s Lament.” It is Adam’s cry from Hades.

Where art Thou, O Lord? Where art Thou, my Light? Why hast Thou hidden Thy face from me?
Long is it since my soul beheld Thee,
and she wearies after Thee and seeks Thee in tears. Where is my Lord?
Why is it that my soul sees Him not? What hinders Him from dwelling in me?

This hinders Him: Christ-like humility and love for my enemies art not in me. God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe.

Understood in this way, hell (or Hades), is a necessary part of understanding the human condition. It is the emptiness of our condition revealed by the fulness of God who alone is true Being. Hell is the nakedness of our condition that we seek to avoid at all costs – creating disguise after disguise that can never hide that nakedness.

In Christ, we see God-become-man voluntarily enter that nakedness. Naked on the Cross before the eyes of all, “He turned not His face from the spitting and the shame.” (Is. 50:6)He did not refuse the alienation we imposed upon Him so that He might go to the very place of our alienation to bring us home.

“[God] made Him to be sin who knew no sin, that we might become the righteousness of God.” (2Cor. 5:21)

“God became man, so that man might become god.” St. Athanasius, De Incarnatione

The truth of our existence is found in God Himself, in our union with Him. In Him, with Him, and through Him, we are created for paradise, for the fullness of being that is God Himself.

The iconography of the Orthodox faith makes clear that Christ’s entrance into our world is an entrance to a human condition that “rhymes” with hell. In the icon of Christ’s nativity, His birth is pictured as taking place in a cave (and that was certainly the case, though it was used as a “stable”). In the icon, the cave is depicted in a manner that copies the “cave” of Hades that can be seen in the Descent into Hades icon associated with Pascha. That same depiction can traditionally be seen in the icon of Christ’s Baptism in the Jordan, where the waters of the Jordan are “hell.” So St. Paul tells us that those who have been baptized into Christ were baptized into His death.

On a certain level, such revelations can seem abstract and distant. My baptism was 65 years ago. More immediate are daily struggles and an inevitable decline in health. None of these things seem to sink to the level of “hell.” But avoiding hell is not the point. Rather, it is recognizing the “hell” that is already present in the emptiness and death of the human condition. It is also the empty place of humility. But, with the Psalmist, we recognize that “Christ is there.” (“Lo, if I descend into hell, Thou art there”).

In Vespers, we enter this place and begin to pray:

Lord, I call upon Thee, hear me.
 Hear me, O Lord.
Lord, I call upon Thee, hear me.
Receive the voice of my prayer, when I call upon Thee.
Hear me, O Lord.
Let my prayer arise,
 in Thy sight as incense,
and let the lifting up of my hands
 be an evening sacrifice.
Hear me, O Lord.

Later, we continue:

Bring my soul out of prison Thy I may give thanks unto Thy name…

… Out of the depths have I cried unto Thee, O Lord; O Lord, hear my voice.

Where are we standing when we offer this hymn (a composite of verses from Psalms 140, 141, 129, and 116 )? Clearly, we are standing in the depths of hell – the “prison” (the Hebrew word would be better translated as “dungeon”). Significantly, as the Psalm and its verses are being sung, the priest comes out of the altar, censing the Church and the people. As we lift our voices from the place of darkness, Christ enters into our midst. He comes to save. When this hymn is completed, the doors of the Holy Place are opened, and the priest enters again with incense and light, while we sing the hymn, “O Gladsome Light.” It is our deliverance.

This “liturgy” is repeated again and again in our daily lives. To my mind, it has been the model of priesthood – to meet people in the various prisons of the soul, in the levels of hell within the heart, and to preach the gospel. “The people who sat in darkness have seen a great light.” Christ comes to us.

A difficult part of the spiritual life is to recognize the darkness for what it is and allow Christ to enter. Too often, we flee the darkness into places of make-believe, the various neuroses that we falsely treat as a refuge. We should never mistake our neuroses for God. This is a difficult discipline.

In the Divine Liturgy, just before the service begins, the altar is censed while these verses are quietly spoken:

In the tomb with the body,
In hell with the soul, yet as God,
In paradise with the thief,
On the throne with the Father and the Holy Spirit,
Wast Thou, O bountiful Christ, filling all things.

Just so. Follow Christ…everywhere, through everything. He is there.

 

About Fr. Stephen Freeman

Fr. Stephen is a retired Archpriest of the Orthodox Church in America. He is also author of Everywhere Present: Christianity in a One-Storey Universe, and Face to Face: Knowing God Beyond Our Shame, as well as the Glory to God podcast series on Ancient Faith Radio.



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68 responses to “In Hell with the Soul”

  1. Matthew Avatar
    Matthew

    As I see it if man was created by God and if man contains the image of God and if Jesus Christ Himself lives in man, then I don´t see how it is possible for any person to ever enter into a state of non-existence beyond God´s almighty upholding. One may be able to run, but one can never truly hide.

    Also, while I know what early Church tradition taught about the cave, I found this information to be interesting nevetheless:

    “Mary likely gave birth in the lower tier of a relatives’ home — a space that was naturally carved into a limestone cave to shelter both the family’s daily livestock and the infant Jesus.”

    Apparently “kataluma” has been mistranslated. It was not an inn that had no space, but rather a dedicated guest area.

  2. Helen Avatar
    Helen

    Father, you wrote:

    Hell is the nakedness of our condition that we seek to avoid at all costs – creating disguise after disguise that can never hide that nakedness.

    So true. I think freedom is understanding who I am and am not. And then recognizing that my nakedness can only ever be taken care of by “putting on Christ”.

    Your last few articles about reading, that was one of my disguises it seems. Thank you. Your writing continues to bring me hope.

  3. Fr. Stephen Avatar

    Matthew,
    In Greek, the non-being I am referencing is “me outos” rather than “ouk outos” – that is, “relative non-being” versus absolute non-being. We cannot and do not ever reach “absolute” non-being. Our existence is the gift of God and we cannot destroy it. However, by refusing the gift, we can diminish the character of our being. It is a dynamic. “Hell” in this sense, is a trajectory towards non-being rather than actual non-being.

    As to the cave – there are caves in the area, used by shepherds, etc. I have been there. I rest within the tradition.

  4. Cynthia Avatar
    Cynthia

    Thank you, Father.
    The mosaic of Christ raising Adam and Eve from the dead is so beautiful. I saw it in Kouri Chapel in Ustanbul in 1998.
    I will read and reread your words with this in my mind.

  5. Fr. Stephen Avatar

    Cynthia,
    I think we often lose a very important understanding of Christ’s descent into Hades by making the conversation about heaven and hell to be about juridical decisions of reward and punishment in the afterlife. The Church’s liturgies (in all of its forms) speaks in the manner that I am using in this article about every individual’s movement from death/despair/darkness/emptiness to life/love/light/fullness – a movement from hell to paradise within the human heart.

    In the article, I purposely side-step the conversation about the last things (who goes where, etc.) to draw our attention to this other understanding. In the Tradition, this treatment of liturgy is called a “mystagogical interpretation” – that is, an interpretation and understanding that leads us deeper into the mystery and the reality of the Kingdom of God.

    This is going on all around us, everyday, everywhere, and at all times. I hope that something in my article is of help in learning more about this and of embracing the reality that God has birthed in our midst.

    Blessings!

  6. Simon Avatar
    Simon

    Fr. Stephen,

    We are all of us in hell already. Without effort, we drift toward the nothingness of hell. To use the language of the Philokalia, toward “confusion,” “lunacy,” “forgetfulness,” and “foul stench.” But the nothingness of hell does not mean that the person becomes nothing. It is the movement toward non-being experienced by a person whom God continually sustains in existence. an ever-deepening obscuring of the image of God in the person. The psychological dimension can not experience this type of disintegration in no other way than as hell.

    In mathematics the word is asymptote and the epsilon is hell.

    I am in hell now. I mean that sincerely. I believe though that Christ dwells within me in hell right now. Sincerely, how can it be any other way? We think of heaven and hell as post-mortem destinations. They are not. I am sure that there is a sense in which a part of me sits with Christ in heavenly places. But, what I am most keenly aware of from a day-in day-out psychological dimension is the obscuring power of sin that is at work in the world and in me.

    There are times when the mind quiets and I see that Love pervades all things–that the ontology of all things is Love.

    The question I think is not whether or not we are going to hell, but whether, in the hell we already inhabit, we will discover that Christ has descended there before us and is already present.

  7. Dee of Sts Herman and Olga Avatar
    Dee of Sts Herman and Olga

    Father,
    I’ve been going through hell these past months. I find your words so comforting.

  8. terence smith Avatar
    terence smith

    Thank you Father,
    this has added greatly to my understanding about the concept of hell, I am continually amazed at the wisdom found in the writings of the Church Fathers. Thank you for these references

  9. Dn. Peter Rentsch Avatar
    Dn. Peter Rentsch

    Well spoken Father!

  10. Fr. Stephen Avatar

    Simon and Dee,
    I would have to “google” “asymptote and epsilon” – but the “confusion, lunacy, forgetfulness, and foul stench” of the Philokalia’s description will do. I think that, to a degree, recognizing the hell that we are in means we’re paying attention on some level rather than filling our attention with distractions. I deeply appreciate that Love pervades all things. The “ontology of all things is Love” – is true.

    Christ said, “The Kingdom of God is within you.” It is a challenge. When I think of the Rich Young Man who wanted “more” – “what more can I do?” and Christ told him to give away everything and follow Him,” I think there’s a sense in which Christ is saying, “Your life is comfortable now. Come with me and I’ll show you Hell – together, we’ll get a bunch of people out. Follow me.”

    May God grant us all a deeper vision and understanding of the Love that constitutes all things. May He save us!

  11. Simon Avatar
    Simon

    Fr. Stephen,

    An epsilon is just any number. An asymptote describes a behavior of some function to approach that number, but never actually reach it. For example, the epsilon may be 0 so the function may become 0.01 -> 0.001 -> 0.0001 -> … -> 0.00000001 and on to infinity, but the function never actually become 0. I was thinking of this as an analogy for non-being as something we might approach but never reach. It is very much Zeno’s Dichotomy Paradox.

    What you said about the Rich Young Ruler really resonated with me. The invitation to the Rich Young Ruler wasn’t to escape hell as a punishment for sins. It was an invitation to enter the hell he was already in more fully. So, the invitation of Christ to us is to enter hell we are already in more fully. Not to escape it. Not to avoid it. Not to anesthetize ourselves to it. But, to enter into it fully and willingly.

    I think there is so much more to say here. I am looking forward to the comments!

  12. Fr. Stephen Avatar

    Simon,
    So, Zeno’s middle name was “Asymptote.” His last name is obviously Paradox.

    I think that the struggle to “keep your mind in Hell and despair not” is simply another name for ascesis. Sadly, the “religious” forms of ascesis too easily become a distraction for some. Their point is to teach us how to deal with the far more difficult daily elements of hell that come our way. We fast from food but do not fast from anger, envy, resentment, etc.

    Or simply, St. Thérèse of Lisieux’s dictum: “If you can bear serenely the trial of being displeasing with yourself, then you will be for Jesus a pleasant place of refuge.”

  13. Mallory Avatar
    Mallory

    Fr. Stephen, can you say more on this? “Christ said, “The Kingdom of God is within you.” It is a challenge.” That phrase used to give me utmost comfort, but now it just depresses me, because I feel so far from that feeling inside my heart of peace and love daily, which, before motherhood, I used to feel with relative ease. I now see that my life was easy and comfortable, so perhaps it wasn’t the Kingdom of God I was feeling, as I thought at the time, but I never once before wondered seriously if this place is hell, but now I wonder all the time. Motherhood has really crushed me, and it has nothing to do with my daughter, who is truly perfect and love personified, but because I feel like my brain/body/spirit are in hell day after day and now year after year (the countless people who told me it gets easier after babyhood were wrong, so I just keep it to myself now) with the constant demands/needs/mundane endless daily chores/hours of play pretend/physical exhaustion/activites I loathe/poor sleep for years, no rest, no pleasure, no end in sight, repetition, my brain feeling under and overstimulated simultaneously. I really feel it’s hell. I had a conversation with my mom about how if you were to design hell, it might be like this, with lots of people in hell wondering IF they’re in hell or not, and not really knowing, thinking they’re alive even when they’re not, and that the daily little tortures were better absorbed by some people, and some people would convince themselves through distractions/luxuries that they are actually in paradise, but other people would wake up to it one day and know for certain this IS hell, and then what? Is it better to know or not know? Yet through all of this, I’m in love with my daughter, and have without hesitation sacrificed for her to have a magical childhood. It feels like a strange, and cruel, combination. I’m in hell, she’s mostly in heaven, and I feel love for her specifically, but also utter despair inside, annihilation. It makes so sense, but it is what it is. And I know this is an ordinary experience, and millions have done it, and just deal with it, but it doesn’t help in the fire, so to speak. Sometimes I wonder if it’s some underlying physical problem I don’t know about but I think it’s psychological. Simon, you described the day-to-day feel of it better than I can. Thank you for your writing, thank you for the comments. I just learned there are nuns in California (I forget the name) who wake up in the middle of the night to pray for new mothers. That brought me to tears, to know during my many middle of the night rocking her back to sleep and feeding there were nuns praying for me and others like me without me even knowing about it. May everyone be blessed!

  14. Simon Avatar
    Simon

    Fr. Stephen,

    Would you say that one consequence of ascesis is that the hell that is already present becomes more revealed? And the more we fervently turn toward Christ the more apparent hell becomes, and part of the ascesis becomes remaining in that hell rather than seeking escape?

  15. Fr. Stephen Avatar

    Simon,
    I would say yes, in a very mature form. As you know, this is very hard.

  16. Fr. Stephen Avatar

    Mallory,
    My heart goes out to you! Motherhood/parenting is exhausting and taxing, and it varies from person to person, depending on ever-so-much. Your wondering about in physical/psychological issues that it might be exasperating is worth looking into. Anything you can do to find support or occasional relief is worthwhile. I feel so inadequate offering such advice.

    Our parish is filled with young mothers, children everywhere. There are 15 pregnant women in the congregation at the moment! Everytime I go to Church, I look around me and give thanks for these heroic parents and their children. It’s obviously easier for some than others. But it is always difficult.

    Thank God for the nuns’ prayers in the night for mothers – I had not heard of this wonderful practice!

    The great difficult with this is, once we see that we’re in some version of “hell” (and it varies greatly), finding ways not to despair. That is the saying, “Despair not.” I think that the work of child-raising is a greater work than the ascesis of a monk or nun.

    Run to the Theotokos. Make her your prayer partner. Lean into her. She is united quite specifically to mothers (as well as to us all). May she quickly hear your prayers and send strength and encouragement. May God bless your daughter and keep you both!

  17. Matthew Avatar
    Matthew

    Way too much talk of an already, ever-present hell for my taste. I just might return to Pentecostalism!

    So sorry ladies and gents … 🙁

  18. Dee of Sts Herman and Olga Avatar
    Dee of Sts Herman and Olga

    Matthew,
    I believe one way to connect with this conversation (if you want) is simply to follow Christ and not to expect a bed of roses without thorns.

    As a person who has grown roses, I believe some of the most sweetest scented had thorns. Perhaps we might think of these as the thorns Christ willingly wore for us. And they may well prick our fingers too as we immerse ourselves into the heavenly scent.

  19. Fr. Stephen Avatar

    Matthew,
    Dee’s response is truly kind. It’s important in this conversation not to import trauma and psychological injuries from the juridical concept of hell. I have little use for that notion and am not discussing it here at all. However, I know you are no stranger to suffering – and, I suspect that wherever you are it is with you.

    Orthodoxy, in its true, ascetical conversation, speaks honestly about the human heart and its condition and acknowledges that this inner “hell” is real, and reflects something, perhaps greater. But it is a conversation precisely about the fact that Christ has entered into that darkest of all places with the light that is His love. It is the story of our deliverance. Orthodoxy’s depiction of Pascha, the brightest of all moments, is specifically seen in the icon of Christ descent into hell. That is His true victory.

    Pentecostalism, at its worst, is just American modernity with tongues. And the myth that we can progress our way out of suffering. However, there is no way other than the Cross – and Christ has gone there before us and will be with us as we follow that path.

    Hang in there. You’re not alone.

  20. Byron Avatar
    Byron

    Hell is the nakedness of our condition that we seek to avoid at all costs

    Adam in the garden, hiding from God, immediately comes to mind.

  21. Alan Avatar
    Alan

    “I believe one way to connect with this conversation (if you want) is simply to follow Christ and not to expect a bed of roses without thorns.”

    So very true Dee. Thank you for adding this.
    I think one of the problems for American Christians is this very thing. On the surface, most of us would flat out reject the versions of prosperity “Christianity.” Yet, on a subconscious level, I find myself wanting everything to go well. This is a hard thing (at least for me) to truly repent of.
    So again, thank you.
    This is a great post Father.

  22. Fr. Stephen Avatar

    Alan,
    Thank you very much. I will point to the book, cited in the article, by Fr. Silviu Bunta, for sending me down this particular rabbit hole. It’s fully there in the Fathers (and certainly at the heart of the Philokalia), but not often spelled out in this manner. I think we all live lives of “quiet desperation” as the poet said, but we keep thinking that our lucky number will come up, or that, with just a bit more effort, and it’ll all get better, or, if it’s all going ok, maybe this’ll last.

    I’m not a pessimist – I’m a Christian. I’m honest about the darkness (which is all around us), but I’ve seen the light. The doors have been kicked open, and I can feel myself being dragged along towards that unending Day. I have a follow-up article that I’m working on that will help bring all of this together, I hope.

  23. Matthew Avatar
    Matthew

    Thank you Fr. Stephen, Dee, Simon, etc. for all your comments.

    I stand firm in my position that while suffering indeed comes and that suffering is used by God for some purpose, my Christian focus will never be on glorifying a hellish condition. My strength will be channeled toward reducing suffering in all cases in Christ´s holy and precious name.

    I also stand firm with St. Paul in professing to know nothing but Christ and Him crucified – a crucifixion that is at the same time complete solidarity with human suffering and the route to an eventual healing of all things that comes through Christ´s beautiful resurrection.

    My prayer is that my focus is correct and that it glorifies my Lord. I can only submit to both Him and my conscience – a conscience that is being transformed by Him daily.

  24. Mallory Avatar
    Mallory

    Thank you, Fr. Stephen.

  25. Fr. Stephen Avatar

    Matthew,
    I take great exception to the suggestion that what I have written “glorifies a hellish condition.” In naming the hellish condition of human suffering “hell,” it specifically identifies it as something to be battled, to be endured, to be defeated. Christ enters death not to glorify death but, through death, to trample it underfoot.

    I suspect that something within my article, and the conversation, has triggered your response and I respect that. However, what I’m writing is well within the traditional language and theological treatment of the faith.

    It is the modern secularized account of Christianity that flattens everything – that leaves people without language to deal with their suffering, other than to say, “suffering is bad.” That is inadequate. Often enough, it leaves those who are suffering and enduring difficulties feeling shame, as though their Christian life is somehow failing them. I do not suggest that you mean to do that – but it is a huge theme across a large swathe of the modern landscape.

    It particularly flattens the inner life. “Reducing suffering” is quite easily nothing more than a secular program of the modern state projects. The problem of human suffering is hell. Hell within, hell without, hell all around us. And, without discernment, many add to the hellscape by refusing to deal with the war within their own heart. It is there that Solzhenitsyn said the “dividing line between good and evil” is to be found.

    Christ crucified is precisely what I have been describing in my work, including this most recent article. I’m sorry that it hits you the wrong way. Please know that I’m not trying to convince anyone of anything – and that I respect your conscience. Hang in there.

  26. Rob Avatar
    Rob

    About 15 years ago I was at a Pentecostal youth conference. I was a part of a non-profit discipleship & homeless outreach ministry and we were there seeing if any young men that wanted to come join us in the journey we were on. We had no idea that the pastor who put on the conference was going to invite us on stage and do a Q&A with us until the moment he called us up on stage.

    He asked us quite a few questions, but I only remember what two of them were about. The first question was drawing out our views on sin and hell and what we would say to the all the people there. My response went completely away from after death and into the present: I said something like that for those of us who feel distant from God, who are weighed down by our sins, etc., we are experiencing a hell already. I said nothing of the afterlife because I’ve always felt that I am not God and I can’t speak to the future judgment. The follow-up question to that was what can one do to escape hell. I remember looking into the eyes of the youth, the youth leaders, the pastors present there and sensing this “every man for himself” kind of way that I’d sensed in myself, in the religious circles I’ve been in, and in the culture. It’s like we pass out Bibles to people and say “good luck, I hope it ends well for you”. I was deeply moved and said to all of them to find someone that reminds you of Jesus, that reminds you of what you read about the ways of Jesus in the Gospels, and try to be in relationship with them, if you can, and to follow them as they follow Christ.

    This article and the comments just stirred up that memory and I thought I’d share. I don’t think I fully realized how controversial, and unwise I’ve been. My perception has been that people steer clear of me in religious circles, but that could just be my perception or me being paranoid. I have suffered a great deal in religion corcles and find it way easier to navigate among people who aren’t religious or who haven’t been exposed to a lot of the teaching that floats around. And to this day I don’t know how right or wrong I have been in my life and words, but my perspective hasn’t really changed that much and that simple “come and see” understanding and experience of discipleship has been a real struggle fraught with resistance. And that connection to the elders eludes me, with some exceptions.

    Lord, have mercy on me. Help me to run and finish the race.

  27. Fr. Stephen Avatar

    Rob,
    My first experience with the doctrine of union with Christ as a young man ran into opposition from the elders of a charismatic church that I was part of. It was one of the most difficult points in my life. It was actually at that point that friend shared V.Lossky’s Mystical Theology of the Eastern Church with me and I was introduced to the concept of “theosis.” I wept realizing that what I was hungry for had actually been taught from the beginning of Christianity, only lost by many along the way. I left that fellowship and began a very long journey that finally brought me to Orthodoxy. That’s my own version of what happened – but, I think it was also true that I stepped on toes a lot at that time and brought some of the condemnation down on myself. I needed a number of years to come to grips with that harder aspect of things – it wasn’t a doctrine, it was tougher than that. And, I think, this is almost always the case. It’s never just about ideas. At age 72, I still find myself crushed from time to time and struggling to live with the “earthen vessel” in which I must carry this treasure.

    It’s a sort of balance and we fall off the tight-rope all the time. The point is to keep getting up, giving thanks to God, and to keep walking.

    To speak to the inner hell is very difficult. It is wrapped in shame. People then need not to be left alone, but to be companioned into the Kingdom. Your instincts were right-on. I believe that Christ gave us His Church, and set us in that context so that we could, together, work out our salvation. We are not alone. You are not alone. God give us grace!

  28. Matthew Avatar
    Matthew

    Thank you Fr. Stephen. I mean that sincerely. The defense rests.

  29. Rob Avatar
    Rob

    That response brought me to tears, Fr. Stephen.

  30. Fr. Stephen Avatar

    Rob,
    I share your tears!

  31. Mallory Avatar
    Mallory

    “To speak to the inner hell is very difficult. It is wrapped in shame. People then need not to be left alone, but to be companioned into the Kingdom.”

    This is so beautiful, Fr. Stephen. I am so grateful I somehow found your voice. It is a great comfort, and I hope to do this for other when I’m out of my current hell. I suppose that’s the best we can do–for example, I’ve been thinking about how I might be able to help other mothers in the future who might be grappling with what I am but can’t speak to it, or feel shame about it. Shame is so poisonous, it causes us to turn away from ourselves and each other and I also believe it’s at the root of addiction. May we all choose this path to not leave others alone in whatever hell they may be in. So many thanks!

  32. Justin Avatar
    Justin

    Fr Stephen et al,

    This conversation hits well within my 10-Ring, as you might expect. It reminds me strongly of one of the factors that originally pushed me toward the Orthodox church, interestingly enough… a movie, _Toy Story 3_.

    (Probably a spoiler alert!) Late in the movie our band of heroes is in an apparent no-win situation, a trap which looks very much like the gaping maw of Hell. Each, one after another, exhausts their wit and strength trying to escape, eventually all resigning to their shared fate. Except–beginning with one, then passing to all, they reach out to each other to hold each other’s hands creating a chain, determined to not endure their fate alone. They chose to face it, *together*.

    (Of course, they are rescued by an outside force. It *is* a kids’ movie, after all. Their rescue has a symbolism all its own, too deep to discuss here, but not off topic. We are, after all, rescued from Hell, by Jesus Christ–the icon says so.)

    It is this “facing it together” that brings me to tears, still to this day. It is just like you, Fr Stephen, said in your last paragraph to Rob: ” People then need not to be left alone, but to be companioned into the Kingdom. Your instincts were right-on. I believe that Christ gave us His Church, and set us in that context so that we could, together, work out our salvation. We are not alone. You are not alone.”

    Prior to my reception into the Orthodox Church, I was facing my hells, inner and outer, alone. The Orthodox Church offered me a person–Jesus–to face my hells with me, hand in hand, arm in arm. Never before was that offer made. Never since.

    I took Rob’s advice, and didn’t even know. (Not really a Spoiler Alert–we are rescued too!)

  33. Byron Avatar
    Byron

    It is a great comfort, and I hope to do this for other when I’m out of my current hell.

    Mallory, don’t underestimate your ability to do this now, as God allows. We walk together in our shared woundedness, by God’s grace.

  34. Fr. Stephen Avatar

    Mallory,
    Thank you, indeed. I love this comment community. It is such a deep help to me, always.

  35. Fr. Stephen Avatar

    Justin,
    Your treatment of Toy Story made me think of Jonathan Pageau – all stories have a purpose!

  36. Michael Avatar
    Michael

    Thank you once again for your article, Fr. Stephen. And for the comments. There’s a lot of wisdom here, I think. Some of which I can even understand! Perhaps I echo some of what is ringing badly with Matthew, perhaps not.

    I think my difficulty lies not in recognizing the reality of suffering, or even that suffering has “value” (I know that’s an oversimplification, I make it just so I can get to my point).
    What I’m hearing here is recognizing that to some degree suffering is part of our salvation, in that it is where Christ went and where we still find Him. And where we can help each other bear our crosses. These days I feel almost choked by the global malaise, like a sort of general darkness has settled over the world. And I feel preoccupied with the thought that no good can come from it. Even more frightening to me is the reality that this darkness is not general, or depersonalized, but is indeed the smoke of 7 billion bespoke hells. At least in the language of this article. Whatever the relationship between this current “hell” and a teleological/ontological/juridicial/final-in-some-way hell, I cannot say. What I can say is that I would not, and could not, and cannot entre into those hells. I can’t even entre into my own heart, to see if I can find Christ there. So perhaps that is what you mean Fr. Stephen, when you say that Christ entres into hell. He can go into that inferno in each of us, if we are willing or able to meet Him there. That’s maybe what I think I understand from your article.

    What I’m (poorly) trying to summarize is that suffering doesn’t need to be senseless. However what I can’t seem to get past is when the suffering is truly meaningless. If the suffering is for our salvation, very well. In my former life as a liberal-Christian dabbler, I had no issues with the so-called “problem of evil”. It seemed clear as day to me that the greatest suffering in this world would seem like a slap on the wrist in the light of Heaven. That assumes, as I did, that everyone makes it. In my life now as a more serious Christian , as much as I desparately want it to not be so, it seems on the last day there will at least be some goats. So what of the unredeemed suffering of the goats? Is their suffering not completely meaningless? Or worse, did it only exist for the salvation of others?

    I have witnessed horrendous suffering just on the streets of my city. And I live in a developed country, not a region torn by civil war, or in some terrible slum. I’m talking about what I’ve seen in the shadow of the arena where our NHL hockey team plays.

    Perhaps a little over a year ago, I came across a woman sitting in an alley with some other people. She had no arms and no legs. I don’t know if she was born that way, or if it was due to an accident. Knowing the situation of many on the street, they were likely amputated due to frostbite and/or infection. Our winters can get down to -40 degrees celsius. It only takes one bad night for 3rd degree frostbite to take an arm or a leg, or several. The homeless folks living outside in that weather face greater physical and mental suffering than I think most of us can imagine. And yes, I have seen incredible displays of resilience, love, and charity amongst those folks. But there’s also a huge amount of drug use, theft, physical and sexual violence, among other things. Often by the same people.

    This is not to try and steer the conversation towards the nature of a “final” hell. Or to discuss who may go there, or what may cause them to go there. I am not trying to speculate about the nature of any particular individual’s salvation. I’m only bringing this up as an example to try to give words to the delemna in my heart.

    I cannot imagine the nature of this woman’s life on the streets. Completely and utterly dependant on others who were with her. Forced to sit on the frozen concrete. Unable even to access winter clothes that would fit her. In all liklihood she has not survived the past year. I know what it’s like out there. Hundreds of homeless people die each year in my city alone. And that’s only the ones that certain charities count, there are likely hundreds more, and still more who have gone missing. When they die it’s not reported anywhere.

    And this is where my heart breaks. If all of these people are “saved” (and I do not want to get into a debate about what that means exactly, I’m simply referring to the idea that at the end there will likely be both sheep and goats), then their suffering has been redeemed. It didn’t happen for no reason. And in the redemption of their suffering, my experience of their suffering is also redeemed. The weight of witnessing it on my heart is no longer crushing, because there is hope. And if I did an act of charity for them to momentarily relieve their suffering, then perhaps that was an act of mutual salvation.

    But if they are not “saved”, then their suffering was a meaningless antechamber to something infinitely worse. And if I gave them charity, then any goodness from that act was not mutual. It would almost feel like a violation, like I used them for my own personal benefit. I know of course that I cannot know what is going on in any person’s heart, and I do not want to (see my above comment about 7 billion hells). But I need to trust in order to bear the weight of witnessing even just what I will see just on my drive home from work. Without trusting God I cannot live, I cannot bear anything. I need to trust that this is all leading to something good. But if some are not “saved” then how can I trust that any are? Even if the odds are good, it’s still a gamble. And the odds are seeming less good every day.

    To reiterate, I’m not trying to speculate about the nature of anyone’s salvation, hell, or anything like that. My issue is with trusting the Lord.

  37. Fr. Stephen Avatar

    Michael,
    First and foremost, I believe we can trust the Lord utterly and completely. He not only loves and cares for the least of us (including the worst of us) but He entered fully into us (and into the hells that exist for whatever reason or cause), and does so for our salvation and the redemption of us all. “God is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance” (2Pet. 3:9). Additionally, when Christ expressly commands us to serve the sick, the prisoner, the hungry, the naked, etc., he would seem to be precisely describing those like the homeless you have encountered. Christ is there, in them, and has invited us to meet Him there. Wherever there is a hell, Christ has gone there, and He has gone there for the purpose of delivering those who are held captive.

    The mystery that I cannot answer is the “math” question. Are all saved in the end? I have been reading (and re-reading) the English medieval mystic, Julian of Norwich. She describes this question, and a couple of other related matters, as part of God “privy counsel,” which He will reveal to us when it is the right time. But, she adds with assurance, “All will be well, all will be well, and all manner of things shall be well.”

    My own meager thoughts on this are that it is for my salvation to not be able to answer the question, even if it leaves me with a burning and a question. There is a pious Orthodox answer that says, “All will be saved. I alone will be in hell.” Its sort of a version of “Of sinners, of whom I am chief.”

    Orthodoxy, classically, leaves the answer somewhat unsettled and traditionally avoids it. Lately, there has been a lot of noise from both those who claim it must be settled (some say yes some say no). I think they say what they do not know.

    I know God as He has made Himself known to us in Jesus Christ. When I look at Christ, particularly Christ Crucified and Risen, I am confident that all will be well. Don’t exactly know how all of that works. I wait to know when I “know even as I am known.” We don’t have to know everything already. It’s not good for us.

    God bless you and keep your heart and fill you with trust in His infinite mercy and goodness. When St. John saw the martyrs beneath the throne in heaven (who pray for us day and night) he said they cried, “How long, O Lord, how long?” That seems fair enough. But they did not cry, “Why?” nor did they demand to know what they were not yet given to know.

    I am a human being. I must learn to live with a bit of not knowing. It’s good for me.

    BTW. I have a couple of more articles in the works on this topic. Pray for me.

  38. Michael Avatar
    Michael

    Thank you for taking the time to provide such a long response, Fr. Stephen. I will consider and re-read it. There is still little peace in my heart, but I suppose that is for me to bear for now.

  39. Fr. Stephen Avatar

    Michael,
    I don’t think we’re supposed to have peace about those who are suffering. Hell is bad. We don’t make peace with it. We bravely show up in the middle of it, and say, “We’re on a mission from God.”

    I’ve always thought that my purpose as a priest was to enter hell and get as many people out as possible. Some of them want to stay and be of help. But (metaphorically), that’s where the work is.

  40. Mallory Avatar
    Mallory

    Thank you for that reminder, Byron. I’ve been debating whether or not to apply to a program my friend is encouraging me to apply to where I would then be certified to be a support to other mothers in the early stages of postpartum depression. I keep hesitating because I worry about being a burnt out wounded healer, basically. But perhaps that’s overthinking, perhaps I should go where I’m called or useful, make meaning out of my experience, and simply ask “how can I help?”

    May all be blessed.

  41. hélène dragone Avatar
    hélène dragone

    Father Stephen, about hell (a word so often misunderstood and distorted from its true human and ontological reality) I would like to share a few thoughts.
    When one knows and experiences, through deep prayer (each according to their own measure and strength), repentance in the face of one’s own smallness and powerlessness to change anything deep within oneself (or in the world !), and when one faces this reality — which is our own hell yet does not crush the person because God is present — something is born of that suffering. It transforms into light and gentleness, a source of life and a new longing. It is this movement of death and resurrection—growing ever deeper and more luminous—that unfolds within us during the time we are given. Once we have begun to “taste” this movement, we surrender ourselves in prayer to the Lord with complete trust, for our God is faithful and knows what is good for us and for our lives. Everything lies in the “experience,” in the very reality of it. What an extraordinary paradox we are privileged to experience ! There is enthusiasm in our faith, for everything is perceived as absolute truth, and we possess the great witnesses and testimonies within our Orthodox life…

    I am reminded of that passage in Father Zacharias’s book *Hesychasm*; it possesses a clarity and inspiration that instill both strength and courage : “A person who sees themselves in the light of Christ’s grace discerns two truths : the hideous impurity lurking within their soul and the darkness weighing upon their heart, yet at the same time a light that draws them and guides their steps along the path of the Lord. Inspiration and an insatiable thirst to draw near to that light arise within them. Indeed, no one on earth possesses greater inspiration and courage than the person who repents”.

    May everything within us become deep ; may our limited, narrow ‘psychology’ ceaselessly receive the breath of faith and prayer — which expand our hearts — and all our desires toward Christ, our fullness of life…

    (Forgive me for the imperfect translation.)

  42. Fr. Stephen Avatar

    Hélène,
    Yes! Thank you so much this. I think as the years press on, that the icon of the resurrection (Christ Descent into Hell), continues to say precisely what I find. He is not taking Adam and Eve by the hand (them holding on to Him), but he takes them by the arm, He is pulling them. This same image is used in the icon of the Ladder of Divine Ascent. The monk at the top is being pulled to the finish rather than having successfully completed a personal effort.

    Back in the 1980s, I was in Atlanta, at a conference and got hit with a terrible case of food poisoning that put me in the hospital overnight. The next day, in my hotel room. I was still recovering and was emotionally washed out as well. I did not have the strength to drive home. My wife and a friend drove down to get me and drive my car home. Their knock on the door of my room was greeted by my crying like a small child. I felt the deepest kind of relief in that moment. It is a memory that has always rhymed with the Descent into Hell for me. It is like an inner icon that repeats through the years as each “hell” is greeted by Christ taking me by the arm and pulling me home.

    Thank you again.

  43. Simon Avatar
    Simon

    Hell (sin) is as the Philokalia describes it “filth”, “foul stench”, “forgetfulness of God”, and “lunacy.” There is no understanding it. There is no making peace with it. But, that doesn’t mean that our lives are without peace or without understanding. Can a person be in full-communion with God and be in the very heart of Hell? Yes. That is point of Christ. That is point of Psalm 139. Hell isn’t devoid of God and neither are those in hell. There is a basis of hope in that.

    Father Stephen, I am not sure we should identify hell with our personal suffering. Suffering is common to all things in Creation. Who is experiencing hell more? The person suffering from a debilitating disease or the affluent person who “has it all”? Whatever we mean by hell I think it must be something present in our suffering but also present in our hedonistic distractions. Hell is like a disturbance in the soul. I think it can become tangible and I don’t think it requires that we are physically suffering to make its parasitic, ontological-reducing power felt.

    The juridical notion of hell…it makes no sense.

  44. Fr. Stephen Avatar

    Simon,
    Thank you. Hell is absurd (that’s the nature of evil). Only good makes sense, that is its nature. So, what we confront in the inner landscape of hell are various absurdities. Sometimes they are things we participate in and sometimes they are just things that we confront. But, I especially agree that this in no way precludes our communion with God – it is Christ who has made this possible.

    I think that the language of “hell” in this kind of context is, doubtless, problematic for some, and for that I both understand and apologize. For others, it is language that is very helpful and instructive. I find that it helps me connect with much of the language used in the liturgical life of the Church.

    If, for example, I note that in His Baptism, Christ shows forth His Descent into Hell and His defeat the demons, etc. (all of which is true), but I only use the word “hell” to describe some event at the end of time, or a place bad people go when they die, etc., then the Feast of Theophany (Christ’s Baptism) just becomes some sort of historical abstraction. “How nice for you to do that at Your Baptism…”

    Too often our modern habits of mind make us historicize things that should, in fact, be utterly immediate and something in which we participate. That is the reason we have Feast days in the first place. The Church has no interest in having Feast Days to commemorate history in the modern sense. That would be emptiness personified.

    It is all immediate and participable. St. Maximus said that a human person is a “Microcosm” – that is, “the universe in miniature.” We can speak in historical terms, but, in truth, that history is taking place within us right now and always. It is immediate.

    Thanks!

  45. Matthew Avatar
    Matthew

    Can we talk even just a little bit about Heaven? How is Heaven understood in Orthodoxy?

  46. Fr. Stephen Avatar

    Matthew,
    In Christ’s Descent into Hell, it is heaven’s descent as well. Heaven is nothing less than the fullness of communion with God in Christ. The good news of heaven is that it (He) has come looking for us. Christ said, “The Kingdom of God is within you” (or, “among you”). It is already here and is inbreaking to the world and to our lives. Who could bear hell without it? There is 1Cor. 15:“1Corinthians 15:24 Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power. 1Corinthians 15:25-28

    For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 1Corinthians 15:26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 1Corinthians 15:27 For “God has put all things in subjection under his feet.” But when it says, “all things are put in subjection,” it is plain that he is excepted who put all things in subjection under him. 1Corinthians 15:28 When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put all things in subjection under him, that God may be all in all.”

    This is already unfolding. The battle(s) we endure are already the “putting all things under His feet.” We participate in that battle.

    Here is a very short article of mine that imagines that heaven victorious. Perhaps it will be soothing. It is for me.

  47. Alan Avatar
    Alan

    Rob, thank you for your comments and Father, for your follow up to those comments.
    You wrote: “It’s never just about ideas. At age 72, I still find myself crushed from time to time and struggling to live with the “earthen vessel” in which I must carry this treasure.
    It’s a sort of balance and we fall off the tight-rope all the time. The point is to keep getting up, giving thanks to God, and to keep walking.
    To speak to the inner hell is very difficult. It is wrapped in shame. People then need not to be left alone, but to be companioned into the Kingdom. Your instincts were right-on. I believe that Christ gave us His Church, and set us in that context so that we could, together, work out our salvation. We are not alone. You are not alone. God give us grace!”

    Such comforting words Father. It’s actually very helpful and encouraging to hear you write, that you still find yourself crushed from time to time.
    Again, thank you.

  48. Simon Avatar
    Simon

    I am not sure what needs to be said to anyone about The Truth. That’s a JW type of preoccupation. But “bad” ideas can be destructive just like “good” ideas can be constructive.

    The juridical nption of hell is a bad idea. So, whats the better idea? I cant say. Not my place. BUT, Fr. Stephen is right. Only old faithful people should be doing theology.

    To understand Orthodoxy is to understand life. It takes someone who has lived, suffered, survived, healed, processed, and has some perspective.

    Theology among the young is kind of arrogant.

  49. Dee of Sts Herman and Olga Avatar
    Dee of Sts Herman and Olga

    In my descent into hell, I do my best in my struggles to remind myself of the Lord’s words: the Kingdom resides within you (Luke 17:21).

    This is the tabernacling of the Kingdom into places of the heart where ‘the sun don’t shine’, except for the Light of Christ Himself. He is the Way and the Life.

    “Yea, though I walk in the midst of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil, for thou art with me; thy rod and thy staff have comforted me,” says the Psalmist.

    Hell might be “right here,” but so is He;
    Here is the Lifeboat in the storm; hold on to His hem.

  50. Matthew Avatar
    Matthew

    Thanks so much for your words about Heaven Fr. Stephen.

  51. MARK Andrew OLSEN Avatar
    MARK Andrew OLSEN

    Thanks Father, so neat I read this as I enter Fr. Bunta’s online “Old World Orthodoxy “ course. I’m grateful for you both. Enjoy your Volunteer’s this season!

    Mark

  52. Dee of Sts Herman and Olga Avatar
    Dee of Sts Herman and Olga

    The Adversary is the enemy. Shall we love him too? He also is part of creation that will be brought before Christ.

    In western theology isn’t he depicted as the eternal tormentor? Would this be true also in Orthodox tradition?

    Aside from such thinking I’m grateful for the saints and their patient endurance. At the moment I’m thinking of Sts Seraphim of Sarov. He had such courage and joy in the midst of such battles even among clergy and monks! Glory to God in His saints.

  53. Dee of Sts Herman and Olga Avatar
    Dee of Sts Herman and Olga

    Alan,
    What you wrote in your comment to me is true of me also. I must face my battles in hell, and yet I keep praying that they go away, asking for mercy. But it is also true that the worse they get, the more authentic is my prayer of repentance. This is the Lord’s Way of saving me. Teaching me the truth about His humility. I’m far from the humility of Christ.

  54. Fr. Stephen Avatar

    Mark,
    Enjoy the course! Many thanks.

  55. Fr. Stephen Avatar

    Dee,
    I can only think of a single saint (Isaac of Syria) who spoke mercifully about the demons – though there might be another one or two. Christ showed mercy on the demons who asked to enter the pigs – though it did them no good. I do my best not to think about demons and such at all, if I can help it.

    The commandments to “pray without ceasing,” and to “give thanks always and for all things,” are pretty much the only “all the time” commandments, meaning, they leave us no time to pay attention to the distractions. Someday, we are told, the saints will “judge the angels.” But, this is not that day. In my experience, those who pay attention to the demons get led astray. They’re smarter than we are. They never sleep. They never eat.

    The giving of thanks is a sound they cannot abide. If we make that noise continually, they will leave us alone.

  56. Simon Avatar
    Simon

    I have been thinking about this post and the comments. It is one of the more penetrating threads I’ve read online or on the blog. I want to share somethings. Maybe my anecdotal experience might be helpful–or not. But, for what it’s worth, here it is.

    When I was 20 my fiance and I were very active JWs. We were both raised “in the Truth.” At that time, we were preparing to become missionaries in Russia. We were studying Russian, and making the necessary sacrifices “in the field”. JWs do not provide support for missionary children, only couples. If children enter the picture, the couple must leave the assignment. So, based on direction I received from the local elders, I sought to have a vasectomy at 20 as our birth control. The physician we spoke to made me wait until I was 21 before he would perform the surgery, which he eventually did. What we didn’t know at the time is that he botched the surgery and cut the vein to one of my “parts”, which within a few years started to atrophy. A urologist discovered that the vein was cut and informed me that atrophy in this “part” correlated with an elevated risk for cancer–which I ended up getting. After the orchiectomy the other “part” atrophied as well, but as far as my health goes so far so good. Basically, I neutered myself at 21 years of age for a god I no longer believe in and for a religion I presently despise.

    Over the years, decades, there have been times that my bitterness, anger, and hate have been consuming.

    In my second marriage we adopted a son. Now I love that boy with all my heart. I mean I love him with everything I have. I didn’t know what it was like to really love another person until my son. The contradiction is that without that vasectomy and without everything that happened after that I wouldn’t have my son today. It is strange to the point of bizarre. The best thing in my life only happened because of everything else that went horribly wrong. BUT, I can say to him that if I had to suffer everything I have ever been through over and over again just to be with him, I would do it without hesitation. The suffering is light in comparison.

    Here is another contradiction. I have no right whatsoever to ask that of the birth-mother. Even though I might be willing to endure all things in order to be with my son again the only possible wish I could have for her is that her life would be different–better. That is just the contradiction that is the human condition and maybe that is what it means to live in hell.

    Looking back, suffering in the moment always seems devastating, meaningless, and without purpose–until it’s not.

    Recently we adopted our son’s baby sister. I can’t get into the details but, there were circumstances that made the adoption one of the most painful and devastating experiences of my adult life. I am glad my daughter will never know of it, and I hope the boy never saw any of it. That is a little girl that loves her daddy, and I love her with my whole heart.

    I love her smile.

    But, in the beginning, it is hard to describe the secrets associated with this adoption. BUT, if I had to do it all over again…I would suffer it all. Gladly.

    It takes time to survive, process, and heal. I have been granted the blessing of having lived through all of that and so much more.

    I can say for myself–despite the childhood physical and sexual abuse, the mental abuse I suffered as a JW, the sterilization, the cancer, and all the manipulations–that it isn’t suffering that is the problem. It is living through times when we can’t see that it doesn’t have the final say.

    I have been blessed enough to have suffered, to have survived, and to see a time when my suffering does not have the final say. For myself I can say the problem isn’t that I suffered. It was not being able to see beyond it.

    I believe that there will be a time when the entire scope of all suffering creation will be laid before us and it is something that any single one of us would choose to endure over and over again once we see the end–the final word. That is the one gift of my life.

    That doesn’t make anything easier–or at least it shouldn’t.
    That doesn’t make it more rational.
    That doesn’t mean making peace with it.
    There is still confusion, forgetfulness of God, foul stench and lunacy.
    But, that isn’t the final word.

    Remember the moment when Dorothy sees the man behind the curtain? Remember that dawning realization when you know that she cannot unsee what she has seen? Remember how it changes how she experiences everything that follows? That is what my life is like. I cannot unsee the pattern of suffering overcome by a far greater good. I have seen it enough to trust it.

    This is why I say that there is an arrogance in youth reading books and then presuming to think they know something about theology. Reading books is a poor substitute for having lived a life. Not all old people are wise, but all wise people are OLD. I am fortunate to have had a priest to suffer with me, to pray for me, and pull me from the hellscape of my inner life.

    I insist that–for me–hell isn’t in anything I have suffered. It is the absence of communion with God. Whether we suffer or not is almost beside the point. Hell is the absence of communion with God. Even the most comfortable life is lived in confusion, forgetfulness of God, foul stench and lunacy if it is lived outside of communion with God.

    I apologize for the long post. It almost certainly one of those TL;DR.

  57. Fr. Stephen Avatar

    Simon,
    Thank you. When we’re in the midst of suffering, there’s pretty much nothing that can be said. At best, we can stick around with someone until the suffering passes. By God’s grace some see the good that had been hidden, and it’s a joy to hear that (thanks for sharing some of it). Over the years, the hardest pastoral things I’ve seen have been the painful suffering of teenagers (not often). They’re so young, they really cannot see – there’s not enough experience to draw on.

    That, to me, is a great place for good fiction – stories that give a larger picture and can give images for survival. There are times that good stories get people through the toughest times. I think that in my hardes times (in college), reading Dostoevsky and Solzhenitsyn helped me. Whatever my problems were, they did not rise to the level of a Siberian prison exile or a Soviet Gulag.

    God give us grace! Thank you, again.

  58. Simon Avatar
    Simon

    Fr. Stephen,

    You are right. There is absolutely nothing to be said when people are suffering. All you can genuinely offer is the comfort of companionship. There is nothing anyone can say to “make it better.”

    The West has decimated families and communities. Many youth do not have the anchor that a good family and extended community can be. They are alone. And being alone is worse than the suffering itself.

  59. Dee of Sts Herman and Olga Avatar
    Dee of Sts Herman and Olga

    Simon thank you for your post. Your experience and lessons are indeed helpful and inspiring.

    I think you would be an excellent counselor for those suffering from their JW experiences and whoever is grieving over spiritual scars.

  60. Simon Avatar
    Simon

    Dee,

    Thank you for your confidence.

    People aren’t ready until they are ready. Everything takes time. The longer someone has been in JWs, the longer it takes to get over it.

    Long story short, after all this time my own wounds are still too fresh for me to be of much help to anyone.

  61. Nikolaos Avatar
    Nikolaos

    Fr Stephen

    Fr George Metallinos of blessed memory preached that heaven and hell are not places (topoi) but ways of being (tropoi).

    Therefore, heaven and hell are not simply reward and punishment (condemnation), but the way in which each of us experiences the sight of Christ, depending on the state of our heart. God does not essentially punish, although for pedagogical reasons, the Bible also speaks of punishment. The more spiritual one becomes, the more correctly he understands the language of the Bible and our tradition. The state of man (clean-impure, repentant-impenitent) contributes to our accepting his Uncreated Light as heaven or hell.

    This means that Christ Himself is heaven and hell as depicted in the imagery of the second coming. Heaven and hell are the same reality. From Christ flows a river, bright as golden light, in the upper part, where the saints are, and a fiery river in the lower part, where the demons and the unrepentant are (“those who have never repented,” as a troparion of the Hymns of the day says). That is why in Luke 2:34 it is said of Christ “destined for the fall and resurrection of many.” Christ becomes for others, for those who accepted Him and followed the healing of the heart proposed by Him, resurrection to His eternal life, and for all who rejected Him, fall and hell.

  62. Fr. Stephen Avatar

    Nikolaos,
    Tropos rather than topos. Yes. May God have mercy on us all.

  63. Simon Avatar
    Simon

    Nikolas,

    I think that is a “missing piece” of what I have been trying to articulate. The connection between communion and the experience of uncreated light.

  64. Nikolaos Avatar
    Nikolaos

    Simon

    Understanding that Christ is both heaven and hell, depending on how each one will perceive him in his second coming, resolved a number of theological questions for me.

    The juridical view that God will judge and administer justice (maybe more of a western Christian theology) or the opposite Origenic view that all will be restored (apokatastasis), are incorrect perceptions of how God saves, with the free will and collaboration of man, through the progressive therapy of the soul (catharsis, illumination, theosis). Ultimately some people will not want the therapy offered by Christ.

  65. Fr. Stephen Avatar

    Nikolaos,
    I am not willing to say what is the case ultimately. There is enough disagreement (here and there) on that topic. What I believe to be the case is that we do not know in the same definitive manner that we speak in other cases. There is the very fine article by the late Met. Kallistos Ware, “Dare We Hope that All Will Be Saved?” that states the matter well…stopping at hope rather stating a certainty.

    For example, I could not say to someone who read that article and agreed with it that they were not holding the Orthodox faith.

    I believe there are pastoral and spiritual reasons that leave that matter somewhat clouded – Christ Himself demurred when asked about certain matters of the End. And I like to leave it there. There are saints who have said the same.

  66. Simon Avatar
    Simon

    Fr. Stephen, Nikolas,

    I am thinking out loud.

    I have a tendency to want to place hell beyond the particulars of our immediate circumstances. Thinking of hell as something that holds sway outside of communion is consistent with that. The idea shared by Nikolas that hell and heaven are how we experience uncreated light, i.e., within communion uncreated light is experienced as heaven.

    A fully-deified hypostasis is beyond hell. Perhaps if we think of the human person as a place having a topology, then maybe the fully deified person is a place in which there is no more place for hell, and perhaps the person consumed by passions becomes a place where there is no more place for heaven–or something like that. I like the idea of the human being as a place or places. I think your post, Fr. Stephen, makes this point well.

    The Scripture says (with embellishment) that “The (uncreated) light shines in the darkness (of human hearts) and the darkness did not comprehend it.” Perhaps this what I mean by hell. The human heart residing in a state unillumined by divine light–regardless of what level of comfort the person “enjoys”–is a condition of hell. At least for now, heaven and the divine light are there shining in the darkness–and maybe always does.

    OR…I am shoehorning 😖

    It feels like I am shoehorning.

    Any thoughts, Fr. Stephen?

  67. Fr. Stephen Avatar

    “Thinking out loud” is sort of the most we can do.

    Over the years, I’ve tried not to think of this in the abstract. I have sat with people in hell, sometimes in confession, sometimes in crisis or grief. Sometimes I’ve been there alone. One of the things that drove me to write on the topic of shame is that shame is something that shatters communion and leaves us feeling isolated, unable to react in a proper manner, etc. It had a powerful place in my life – and in the right circumstances – would again.

    I have also been blessed to witness souls coming out on the other side of that darkness – to move from darkness to light. I’ve seen it in my own life. I can remember kneeling at a point of very dark shame and alienation and crying out for help. Probably one of the most important moments of prayer in my life. But I’ve been there in various times and places with others.

    It’s what of seen in all of that – that makes me hopeful, and unable to say that anyone is lost. I do not know that. Indeed, that thought, might make me, or someone else, fear to enter into such places. We must go where love dares to go. Love dares to enter hell, and it must do so or it ceases to be love. Of course, the model that Nikolaos is articulating does not say at any point that God quits, that love (the divine energies) ever ceases.

    I believe that human beings are capable of salvation.

  68. Michael Avatar
    Michael

    Thank you Fr. Stephen, and all for this comment section. This has given me much to think and pray about. Fr. Stephen, your response “we must go where love dares to go” in particular has struck me.

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