The Tangled Web

Sir Walter Scott (1808) famously wrote: “O what a tangled web we weave, when first we practice to deceive.” A modern pundit has rephrased it: “Always tell the truth…it’s easier to remember.”

Lies inevitably create a web of false narratives. In many ways, it’s a metaphor for sin itself. Sin begets sin that begets sin and the web ensnares us into a world of un-truth. A single thread of a spider’s web is tiny and weak. However, the combination of hundreds of such threads works to effectively hold its prey.

The odd “nature” of evil is that it is nothing. Evil has no being. Only God can give anything the gift of being. All that God has created is, thus, inherently good in its nature. Evil, according to the Fathers, is a parasite, a distortion of the good, a mis-direction. Every lie shares this aspect of nothingness (it is even less than a strand of spider-silk). Nevertheless, lies, taken together, have a way of weaving a false reality.

If we pay attention to the web of lies through time, it becomes apparent that the “narrative reality” of our world is largely one of make-believe. Of course, if enough people believe the make-believe, it adds a greater heft to the “nothingness” around us (as paradoxical as that might be). As much as our lives are caught-up in the narrative reality of our culture, we struggle like flies caught in a spider’s web.

Fortunately, there’s a world of difference between a culture’s narrative-reality and the actual world itself. Trees do not lie. The ground does not lie. Spiders’ webs do not lie. The rocks speak the truth. Of course, the narrative about these things can be as false as any lie. This distinction between the world-as-truth and the narrative-as-lie can be very helpful in thinking through the Christian life.

St. John wrote:

Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world—the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life—is not of the Father but is of the world. And the world is passing away, and the lust of it; but he who does the will of God abides forever.(1 John 2:15–17)

When this statement is compared to John 3:16 (“For God so loved the world that He gave His beloved Son…”) it is easy for some to become confused. “God so loves the world…” but “if anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him…” Which is it? The answer is found in the use of the word, “world,” for it’s doing double duty. In John 3:16, “world” refers to all the people of the earth. In 1 John 2, “world” is describing the “narrative-reality” and the somewhat demonic, unseen structures they create that govern our lives. Context is required.

The Epistle of St. James uses even stronger language than St. John in condemning the sinful “web-world”:

Adulterers and adulteresses! Do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Whoever therefore wants to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God.” (James 4:4)

He is not addressing literal “adulterers and adulteresses.” Instead, he is declaring that our friendship with the dark powers and forces of the “world” and its false narratives draws us away from the singleness of our loyalty to God. We become spiritual adulterers. It is something that comes to mind when I hear voices that suggest that we should be in “dialog” with secularity – that the life and teaching of the Church should consider various accommodations to modernity (as a false narrative).

None of this suggests that we should live in fear, nor that we abandon the love of every human being. It is, instead, a reality check that calls us to understand the nature of what is around us, as well as the position of the gospel within it. Classically, we are taught to be “in the world” (in the best sense of the word), but not “of the world” (in the worst sense of the word).

The tangled web of lies that constitutes much of our culture has a way of drawing us from the love of Christ. For example, I have written repeatedly about the modern narrative of “making the world a better place.” It has been a slogan, in one form or another, of virtually every program of mass murder in modern history. I have written carefully about it because it is among the more pervasive and widely accepted lies in the web that binds us. It provides cover for vast amounts of human activity in which we imagine ourselves to be doing “good” – but do so by false measures and in the service of a false vision. We have never been commanded to “make the world better.” Only God knows what would constitute “better.” We are commanded to do “good,” as measured by the teachings of the gospel.

The flat truth of the matter is that the web of lies that surrounds us is not going to improve. Nowhere in the Scriptures is it suggested that this aspect of our lives and their context will change. Indeed, the Scriptures indicate that the trend is in the other direction:

But know this, that in the last days perilous times will come: For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, unloving, unforgiving, slanderers, without self-control, brutal, despisers of good, traitors, headstrong, haughty, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, having a form of godliness but denying its power. And from such people turn away!” (2 Timothy 3:1–5)

These “perilous times,” it should be noted, are constituted by human behaviors. It is in the web of those behaviors, in the lies we tell ourselves and each other, that danger is present for our souls. Nothing about the world (the factual world of God’s creation) itself has changed. The trees, rocks, and everything around us remains good. It is a reason that I urge people to pay attention to what is close at hand, doing “the next good thing.” The things that are at a distance are, as often as not, relayed to us through false narratives, distorted. The “news,” for example, is almost never “news.” It is a story told to us with a purpose, and the purpose is always more than relaying information.

Christ did not, and has not abandoned us to the powers of this “world.” He gave us to one another in the fullness of the life of the Church. There, we are told to “speak the truth in love.” Few things could be more essential to the life of a Christian. We do not ask, “Where is my place in the narrative structures of this world?” There will come a day when everything that is not of the truth (born of God) will be swept away in its nothingness. Only that which has true being will remain. That will be the nature of judgment.

As we move towards the great feast of the Mother of God’s Falling Asleep (Dormition), this verse from her Akathist comes to mind:

Rejoice, O receiver of the Wisdom of God!
Rejoice, O treasury of His dispensation!
Rejoice, by whom philosophers are foiled!
Rejoice, by whom professors are taught!
Rejoice, though many minds are perplexed!
Rejoice, for many myths are destroyed!
Rejoice, by whom the Athenian webs are torn!
Rejoice, by who the fishermen’s nets are filled!
Rejoice, who draws us up from the gulf of ignorance!
Rejoice, who enlightens many by knowledge!
Rejoice, O ship of those seeking salvation!
Rejoice, O harbor of life’s travelers!
Rejoice, O Unwedded Bride!

I close with these words of St. Paul – true then – true now:

See then that you walk circumspectly, not as fools but as wise, redeeming the time, because the days are evil. Therefore do not be unwise, but understand what the will of the Lord is. (Eph 5:15-17)

About Fr. Stephen Freeman

Fr. Stephen is a retired Archpriest of the Orthodox Church in America. He is also author of Everywhere Present: Christianity in a One-Storey Universe, and Face to Face: Knowing God Beyond Our Shame, as well as the Glory to God podcast series on Ancient Faith Radio.



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58 responses to “The Tangled Web”

  1. Helen Avatar
    Helen

    Father, this is such a rich essay, full of such comfort. Thank you also for the help on how to read those verses- very helpful.

  2. Cory Avatar
    Cory

    Father, thank you for this essay. Lying is one of those things that in my past life, I found so easy to dismiss as a little thing, but now am more and more convicted.
    On another note I did especially find the “make the world …” versus the “do good” to be something really valuable, as I realise how many people are putting themselves in control over what belongs to God.

  3. Fr. Stephen Avatar

    Thank you Cory.

  4. Fr. Stephen Avatar

    Helen,
    May God comfort us all!

  5. Mallory Avatar
    Mallory

    This was a beautiful reminder, thank you. I think of this often, because I need to catch myself several times a day, not to desire to be in the world or friends with it. I wonder what you think of the idea that even nature is very vicious? We eat animals, animals eat other animals, trees are sometimes struck by lightning storms or grow diseased, tick bites can be catastrophic, cancer, illness…are these things within the “evil of the narrative of the world” camp or is it God’s design? I truly left the narrative and the lies and the news and the desire to belong to this very sick world, but what troubles me now is that I see evidence of a lot of evil and sickness in the natural world as well. This has been troubling me. Why would a God who is good create suffering for every living creature here? Nature is not good or at peace. I love trees and birds and enjoy them every day. But I have been observing. There is no being who does not seemingly suffer or has to destroy plant/animal/tree etc to survive. So in that lens, it seems that the natural world shares in the fake-narrative of the world—basically there is suffering here. I suppose I was naive in thinking that devoting myself to spending time in nature, daily life and care of a child, care of animals and aging sick humans around me would bring me closer to God. Instead, I fear it has taken me down a darker road of questioning whether we are in a form of hell here. I ask these questions genuinely and with a heart filled with love for my animals, child, fellow mothers. But it’s inescapable what I observe. On my hike today, the dogs went on a wild chase to catch a cat who had caught a still alive chipmunk in its claws. Thankfully the dogs had no chance, but my hiking friend found the chipmunk abandoned by the terrified cat and in terrible pain, slowly dying on the path and smashed it with a rock to end its suffering. I would love to hear your thought on this. Isn’t is possible that when Jesus says “Satan rules this world” and “be in the world but not of it” he is not only speaking of the insanity of the world stage and the false stories we’re told but also the world in a larger sense, including nature? I understand it’s a mystery but I’m getting sick of the mystery and continuously hearing about good people being struck with a horrible cancer as “God is good, we just can’t understand” Ok, well I’m down here doing my best day in and day out for animals and humans and perhaps that’s not a good enough answer for me anymore. I will continue to do the next good thing, but I wish I had more peace in my heart about who’s running this world, who is truly protecting us or not. It is possible there are more false narratives than just the world and the news, in religious views as well.

  6. Dee of Sts Herman and Olga Avatar
    Dee of Sts Herman and Olga

    Mallory,
    My seven-month-old daughter suffered and died. My parents died brutally in a car accident. I suppose it would surprise you that I believe in God’s mercy and that there is goodness in nature?

    It seems to me in your comment that you would think I’m delusional. Perhaps I am by the measure of those who do not hope in Christ. Perhaps all the hope I have is just a crutch to bare up under the emotional trauma. And yet I spent most of my life not as a Christian. What changed and why?

  7. Connie Avatar
    Connie

    Mallory, I can identify with your frustration. I have a quote on suffering that may be appropros to this discussion. It is by the great George MacDonald.

    “It seems to me . . . that in thinking of the miseries and wretchedness in the world we too seldom think of the other side. We hear of an event in association with some certain individual, and we say – ‘How dreadful! How miserable!’ And perhaps we say – ‘Is there – can there be a God in the earth when such a thing can take place?’ But we do not see into the region of actual suffering or conflict. We do not see the heart where the shock falls. We neither see the proud bracing of energies to meet the ruin that threatens, nor the gracious faint in which the weak escape from writhing. We do not see the abatement of pain which is paradise to the tortured; we do not see the gentle upholding in sorrow that comes even from the ministrations of nature – not to speak of human nature – to delicate souls. In a word, we do not see, and the sufferer himself does not understand, how God is present every moment, comforting, upholding, heeding that the pain shall not be more than can be borne, making the thing possible and not hideous.”

    One day someone mentioned to me something about how she would hate to go through what I was having to go through, but then I had the thought, I sure wouldn’t want anyone else to have to go through this. If someone has to go through it let it be me. Maybe God had step by step, gently led me to that point of accepting my own suffering for the sake of others. Because earlier in my life I sure couldn’t have said that. So this brings me to how we are all connected somehow to each other and to creation.

    And it brings up another quote by Herodotus: “If all mankind agreed to meet, and everyone brought his own sufferings along with him for the purpose of exchanging them with somebody else’s, there is not a man who, after taking a good look at his neighbor’s sufferings, would not be only too happy to return to his own.”

    And finally, I personally believe that in the end everyone will say that they believe every last bit of suffering they endured was worth it for the sake of what was to come. Though many are not fortunate enough to believe this, it helps me immensely.

    Just a few thoughts that might (or might not) help.

  8. Dee of Sts Herman and Olga Avatar
    Dee of Sts Herman and Olga

    Connie that was a beautiful quote.

  9. Connie Avatar
    Connie

    Yes, George MacDonald is full of gems.

  10. Mark Spurlock Avatar
    Mark Spurlock

    Mallory,

    It seems reasonable to conclude that either nature suffers as humans do or nature does not suffer as humans do. That is, if natural suffering is essentially the same as human suffering, then we can apply whatever insights or wisdom we learn about human suffering to all life. Whatever meaning our suffering has extends to the suffering of the natural world. Moreover, it is more likely we can learn about the meaning of suffering from our own human experience than trying to guess at what it is like for creatures dissimilar from us.

    On the other hand, if plants, animals, etc. lack something (for example, souls) so that their apparent suffering is nothing like ours, then it is possible that they don’t truly suffer at all. For example, if you watch a movie or cartoon, you may be moved by the illusion it creates, but I don’t think you would argue that any pain or other trauma depicted is real. Or one boulder smashing into another does not cause either to suffer in the human sense of the word. Similarly, if the natural world is purely material so that what we call pain is merely a neuron firing through a chemical process, then lightning striking a tree essentially any different from two boulders colliding?

    I do not mean to diminish the weight of your question. When I look into the face of an abandoned, terrified dog, I can empathize very much with its suffering and conclude that it *is* undergoing something like what a human feels. My point is only that such an extension of the problem of pain “multiplies complexities beyond necessity.” (I have a strong sense of deja vu with this comment.)

  11. Dee of Sts Herman and Olga Avatar
    Dee of Sts Herman and Olga

    Mark,
    About 46 years ago, my son (about 6 months old at the time) endured surgery to remove a very swollen pyloric stenosis valve. It was conducted without anesthesia because it was believed at the time that young infants did not feel pain the way adults do. I wasn’t told about this until after the surgery. I cannot gauge at all what sort of trauma my son endured through that surgery. He recovered. Hopefully, I think the medical field has changed its opinion since then.

    However, I think you have a point regarding the words “multiplies complexities beyond necessity”. It is enough that we tend to have empathy and do what we can for the suffering and pain we perceive in others near us including animals. And yet, pain has its part to play in our learning, healing, survival and last but not least, salvation.

    And it is indeed difficult to embrace the deep sorrow and associated pain we have within ourselves, to touch the wood of the cross, as Father Stephen says. May we have God’s grace and strength to do so with love.

  12. Matthew Avatar
    Matthew

    Hello Mallory.

    For a long time I struggled with the suffering I observe in nature. The process of evolution seems so cruel. I cringed so much at all this that I stopped watching nature programs (or simply changed the channel right at the attack scene).

    When I was a young earth creationist, I attributed this suffering entirely to the fall. When I accepted that the earth is much older than 6000 years, I couldn´t reconcile things. Then there was this idea that somehow even evolution was not created by God. The point is I went round and round trying to work this problem out with little success.

    Fr. Stephen´s thoughts about linear versus eternal thinking and Mark´s most recent comment about suffering in the natural realm give me new hope as I attempt to reconcile natural suffering with a loving God. I may never be able to work all this out, but I have to believe it is my limited understanding that causes me problems – not the idea that an evil God hardwired natural suffering into the very fabric of the universe.

    The problem of evil is a major stumbling block for people considering Christianity. This I know. Didn´t you comment about the problem of evil recently Fr. Stephen and what would happen even if this problem was solved? It was a brilliant observation, though I forget exactly how you worded things.

  13. Helen Avatar
    Helen

    I just imagined that each suffering, every incident, all of it is forged in a nail that was used to put our God on the cross. He allowed it to pierce Him, to keep him hanged, to kill Him.
    It is not yet as it should be, but we are not on our own with this.
    Sometimes it is all I can do to just lean up against Him as He holds the pain.

  14. Dee of Sts Herman and Olga Avatar
    Dee of Sts Herman and Olga

    Father,
    With the Incarnation of Christ, His life, death and resurrection, should we say that the ‘problem of evil’ is solved?

    Does Christs trampling down death by death have meaning in this conversation?

  15. Dee of Sts Herman and Olga Avatar
    Dee of Sts Herman and Olga

    Incarnation of Christ is what I intended to write.

  16. Mallory Avatar
    Mallory

    This is the third (!) time I’ve tried to post some version of the below, but it has not appeared on my end, not sure what the glitch is but I apologize if later 3 versions of this pop up. This will be my last attempt three times a charm ha! Here goes…

    Thank you all for engaging with this so thoughtfully.

    Connie, that MacDonald quote is beautiful.

    Mark, this is really interesting. I understand the philosophical appeal of that framework, but I have to be honest that it doesn’t match what I’ve actually witnessed. The chipmunk on the trail wasn’t behaving like a boulder or a cartoon. It was in visible agony, and my friend ending its suffering with a rock felt like the only mercy available in that moment, which only makes sense to me if what I was looking at was real suffering, not just the appearance of it. I don’t say this to dismiss your point, which I think is philosophically serious. I just have always felt a deep connection to animals. Whether that’s because animals truly share in something like our inner life, or because I’m misunderstanding what I’m seeing, I honestly don’t know. Trees have always felt deeply alive to me, and they’ve been a profound source of comfort, so I’ve never really questioned whether they have souls. But obviously, I don’t know.

    Matthew, thank you for sharing your own path through this. I relate so much to the “round and round” feeling. I also went through a period where the only conclusion that felt logical was that God had nothing to do with evolution, nature, or any of us—the idea (through A Course in Miracles) that God is perfect love and therefore cannot have any awareness of this world at all; that this is an illusion of the ego, and that when we “die” we simply return home to perfect love, welcomed by a God untouched by what happened here. That comforted me for a time because it made a kind of internal sense. But as you point out, I’m deeply aware of how limited my own perspective is. So the search continues…

    I’m grateful for the discussion and count it a real gift that this blog exists.

  17. Mark Spurlock Avatar
    Mark Spurlock

    Dee,

    The story about your son is astonishing in that it is so relatively recent. It would seem obviously better to assume an infant *does* feel pain and protect against its infliction during surgery.

    I’ve been told that some of the medicine we receive (not sure if it’s still technically anesthesia) does not truly keep us from feeling pain, but only makes us not remember it. Drugs that induce “twilight” such as are used in removing wisdom teeth, for example. I question this, however, because it seems as though we would thrash around too much for the operation to occur if we were actually in agony, but perhaps we are still “subdued” by the drug.

    In the case of infancy, we don’t (seem to) remember anything, so in cases like your child’s that forgetting would at least be a mercy.

    Suffering, of course, is not synonymous with physical pain, and one important difference is that memory can prolong suffering. It seems almost certain that animals do experience physical pain and–at least those with the cognitive capacity– do remember it. The reason I used the example of a lost, terrified dog is that it seems to be more akin to purely mental suffering, such as we humans know.

    Sometimes it is easier to at least begin to develop empathy through animals than with all the challenges of another person. Reading all the tales of serial killers who spent their childhoods harming animals makes me suspect that empathizing with “the least of these” might be a precursor to learning to love our fellow human beings.

    An analogy about “multiplying complexity,” however, is this: suppose I were being taught my first language (the language of human suffering?) and trying to understand its grammar and semantics. Then I learned of the existence of many other languages in the world, spoken and shaped by many diverse cultures, vastly different from my own. To be aware of and informed by that is good in and of itself, but until I begin to master my first language, to try to comprehend those other languages may make my achieving fluency in my native tongue unnecessarily more difficult.

    Father Stephen can answer your question about the Incarnation better than I, but I think the Orthodox view of the Incarnation of Christ is that His suffering has more to do with shame and humiliation than physical pain.

  18. Fr. Stephen Avatar

    Mallory, et al
    I will do my best to give some cogent thoughts on this question (problem of a suffering creation). First, we should feel sorrow and trouble at the suffering of creation – it is innocent and it is appropriate that it should cause us sorrow. As far as I know, animals feel pain in ways that are similar to human beings, though I’m sure there are variations. Pain, as a sensory event is necessary for our protection in a dangerous world. Sorrow is different and is likely connected with our ability to reflect – which might be less pronounced in most animals – but I’ve certainly seen it in dogs.

    This is the best I can do as I think through a Christian reflection on a suffering creation.

    As I noted in answering Matthew, Paradise (Garden of Eden) is separate from “this world.” It is not at all clear that this world was created without suffering and pain. There is no historical evidence to indicate such. I’m told by a scientist friend that there is evidence that dinosaurs had cancer present in their midst. Needless to say, they ate each other…

    But, the Scriptures give us a hint. St. Paul, in Romans 8, says that creation was “made subject to futility” by God in light of our sin. This is different than saying that we “caused” the fall of creation. “This world” might already have been subject to futility (which means all of its suffering, etc.) prior to a human “fall.”

    Why would God do that? I would suggest that creation’s futility is nothing other than the Cross of Christ. Christ has united Himself to creation (and creation to Himself) and it is in His Cross (His suffering and death) that He heals us, frees us, and grafts us into His own life. So, in this, I am not thinking of creation as somehow separate from Christ – but rather as the fullness of Christ’s suffering.

    Creation “groans and travails” (Romans 8) waiting for all of this to be completed – that is – precisely for humanity to be saved, made whole. It waits for the whole story to be completed.

    As a believer, we also participate in this cosmic suffering – our sufferings are united to those of Christ and they participate in the redemption of the world. (cf. Colossians. 1:24).

    If we ponder this yet more deeply, the mystery of Christ’s suffering (I use the word not because we cannot understand it at all, but because it is greater than our understanding) is bound up with love. The nature of love, in its highest form is this: “Greater love has no one than this – to lay down his life for his friends.” John 15:13 That includes suffering. Creation, in its suffering, is laying down its life (in union with Christ) for the sake of us all – and is a participation in His love. In commanding us to love one another – Christ is precisely inviting us (commanding us) to lay down our lives for one another (and for creation) and to participate in His love.

    A great problem, I think, is that most Christians have a philosopher’s idea of God instead of God as He has made Himself known to us in Christ. The God who has made Himself known is the God revealed on the Cross – the God “who is love.” It is on the Cross that we see the love of God made manifest.

    Look for Christ in His love. In the Cross (alone) all of this can be known. St. Maximus said that “He who understands the mystery of the Cross understands all things.”

    I hopw that’s of help.

    I’ve been at a conference yesterday and today (and for the next couple of days as well) and have not been able to make a comment until just now. Thank you for your patience.

  19. Matthew Avatar
    Matthew

    Thanks so much for the clear and concise explanation about a suffering creation Fr. Stephen. I really appreciate it. Though what you posit seems to make sense to me, is also leaves me with feelings of loss, fear and even depression. I am sorry.

    If participation in cosmic suffering is essential for our salvation; if the groaning and travail of creation is the suffering Christ on the Cross being made known – then why does the Church invest so much time, money and effort into alleviating suffering?

  20. Dee of Sts Herman and Olga Avatar
    Dee of Sts Herman and Olga

    Matthew,
    I appreciate your questions but humbly ask which church are you referring to?

    The answer might be different depending on which one. For example in my area there are no Orthodox Church run hospitals. The Orthodox Church has had a long history of poverty and persecution. And yet some refer to the Orthodox Church itself as a hospital and Christ is its physician.

    This may seem to be a moot point but it can be confusing without taking into account specific church initiatives and advantages.

    I hope my question doesn’t seem impertinent. But a specific context in your question I think would be helpful (at least for me).

  21. Dee of Sts Herman and Olga Avatar
    Dee of Sts Herman and Olga

    Father thank you for your beautiful answer to Mallory. I always learn something new or more deeply in these questions you address.

  22. Matthew Avatar
    Matthew

    Hello Dee.

    I can only speak about the Catholic Church and the Protestant churches I was part of. Both groups gave and continue to give a ton of time and treasure toward the alleviation of suffering.

    If I might also humbly ask you something: Are you suggesting that the Orthodox Church is not a Church that wants to contribute to the alleviation of suffering in our world – either as an organizational whole of through the work of individual, humble Orthodox believers? Your wording (to me at least) suggests this might be the case.

    Finally … I find it so incredibly interesting that two people can read the same thing and come to completely different conclusions. You find Fr. Stephen´s response to Mallory beautiful. I on the other hand find it very difficult to swallow. Most of this morning I have been questioning the value of Christianity, the focus of my prayers and aspects of my faith as a result of the conclusions Father draws in his response to Mallory.

    Lord have mercy.

  23. Fr. Stephen Avatar

    Matthew,
    I’m sorry that my answer has given rise to consternation or sorrow for you. That creation groans and travails in union with the suffering of Christ – and, St. Paul says, we ourselves groan waiting for the same thing, is not at all a suggestion that such suffering is to be ignored, nor that we are to do nothing in response. Christ’s own commandments regarding the poor, the sick, the hungry, the naked, etc., make that quite clear. But, in the same passage, He also makes it clear that in those very suffering persons He makes Himself present.

    It would be helpful, I think, if you concentrated on love when thinking about all of this. The Church (including the Orthodox) indeed ministers to those who are suffering. And the Church has intervened on their behalf throughout history (not enough). This is love. But what I am suggesting is that, in His love for us, God enters our suffering (and, in Him, the whole creation as well) and groans and moves towards the day that all suffering is ended and is swallowed up in the glory of God.

    That we care for the suffering, however, is not a modern movement to “eliminate suffering.” That’s the foolishness of modernity trying to create false utopias while ignoring some of the most basic forms of suffering and creating yet more.

    Wew feed, clothe, visit, care, heal, reconcile, keep company, etc. Love does all these things. And, love carries us into suffering itself, taking our own sacrificial part in it. In a marriage, for example, husband and wife bear each others suffering in whatever manner they can. Of course we try to help heal or “get better” – but many forms of suffering are intractable – and we do not abandon them, but “bear their burdens, etc.”

    Lastly, don’t worry about agreeing with me or accepting what I’ve suggested is a Scripturally grounded way of understanding the suffering creation. If it’s helpful, fine. If it’s troublesome, put it on a shelf and let it be for a while.

  24. Matthew Avatar
    Matthew

    Thank you Fr. Stephen.

    I have much to consider and contemplate and pray about. My charismatic Protestant background is playing a role in all this.

    I love Christ. I hate suffering, though I completely understand your logic and perspective regarding this complicated theme. I tend to focus on the Resurrection and the new order established as a result of it – though I admit my leanings are often too one sided.

    My sister-in-law cried a bit this morning as she lay in a hospital bed after a 7 hour operation with yet another operation being possibly necessary very soon. She is battling complications as a result of breast cancer. My wife then cried out to me over the phone “I don´t want her to suffer!” I was nearly speechless. I don´t want my sister-in-law to suffer either. I want her to be healed and I pray for that healing even if it doesn´t come.

    Lord have mercy.

  25. Fr. Stephen Avatar

    Matthew,
    Suffering (both ourselves or watching someone else) is difficult. It helps to share it, to be loved while we are enduring it. I spent a couple of years as a hospice chaplain in the mountains of East Tennesseee (coal country). I was with 3 deaths a week on average, mostly from cancer. At times it was overwhelming. But, I was greatly helped by the faith of many of the people I met – their devotion to Christ. Even in those mountain Protestant areas, a favorite picture in most homes was the Sacred Heart of Jesus. They had no idea that it was Catholic. They simply saw Jesus and the crown of thorns on His heart. The picture not only said that Christ loved them, but that Jesus suffered with them – and they leaned into it.

    We all want suffering to end – that’s why we groan (together with all of creation). Christ groans with us and in us as well. May God give you and your family strength to endure this terrible struggle and the grace of His presence.

    Lord have mercy, indeed.

  26. Dee of Sts Herman and Olga Avatar
    Dee of Sts Herman and Olga

    Matthew,
    When you mention the Church with the words “so much time, money”… that didn’t sound like the Orthodox Church history.

    The Orthodox Church has been under severe persecution. It hasn’t had sufficient time or money. It was all it could do to keep living and share whatever it had (not time or money) often under life-threatening conditions.

  27. Dee of Sts Herman and Olga Avatar
    Dee of Sts Herman and Olga

    Matthew,
    I’ll pray for your sister-in-law too. Asking for God’s mercy, God willing, may she be healed.

  28. Matthew Avatar
    Matthew

    Thanks so much Dee. From the looks of it the Orthodox Church is experiencing explosive growth in the U.S.

  29. Matthew Avatar
    Matthew

    Thank you Fr. Stephen. It must not have been easy being a hospice chaplain.

  30. Dee of Sts Herman and Olga Avatar
    Dee of Sts Herman and Olga

    Yes Matthew, you are correct. This is what is happening now in the US. I might be one of the few who is worried about such new explosive growth with so few well trained catechists.

  31. Dee of Sts Herman and Olga Avatar
    Dee of Sts Herman and Olga

    Father,
    Thank you for describing the community you served in Tennessee. From your description their spirituality sounds very orthodox in the traditional sense. It might have been a very difficult job for you but it also sounds like that the faith you witnessed was a true blessing.

  32. Fr. Stephen Avatar

    Matthew,
    Those two years were among the most important in my ministry. I learned much (not in the head but in the heart).

  33. Fr. Stephen Avatar

    Dee,
    My first Archbishop, Dmitri of Dallas, who is honored as a saint by many of us (his relics are incorrupt), became Orthodox in 1943 based on encyclopedia articles. He eventually became the Apostle to the South. Raised a Baptist, his conversion is simply astounding. He was the first convert to become an Orthodox bishop in the Western Hemisphere.

    He was kind, gentle, deeply faithful and generous, often raising eyebrows in his ministry to the non-Orthodox – starting Churches from scratch with men like myself, former Protestants, Anglicans, and such. We labored in store-fronts and warehouses, often as worker priests. Today the Diocese of the South is among the fastest growing. We doubled in the past 5 years alone. My present parish is on pace to have received 100 new members this year alone. Sunday attendance, all told, is nearly 500.

    It’s a far cry from its early years.

    But, all of the clergy are as concerned as anyone about the phenomenon (unparalleled) of our rapid growth. This was not of our doing. We did not cause it nor did we expect it. This is the Lord’s doing and it is marvelous in our eyes. Having said that, we do not know what will become of all this. We know that we will labor to be faithful and do what we’ve been taught to do.

    All of this is the work of God’s Providence. It is for us to be faithful, give thanks, pray for the grace to meet the challenge. We are putting in enormous efforts to train catechists, to do good work. Indeed, I’ve seen that almost all the Churches are now taking more time – making catechesis longer than at any time in my ministry. I see lots of good work.

    But, we have this. My present Archbishop just retired (his health is rapidly failing). He’s a great scholar, a monk, a man of vast experience (he’s Russian royalty, no less). But last night he said this:

    “In all our efforts we will fail. But, of course, Christians know no success but Christ’s. We know no victory but His. We know no glory but Christ himself.”

    That is just one sentence from a farewell talk which had us all in tears. This is truly Orthodox. We know we will fail. We should not think otherwise. But Christ does not fail. He is victorious. But the victory of Christ is always marked by the Cross. This is the true Orthodox phronema. It is a deep contradiction to the success and prosperity heresy of American Christianity (modernity). We must learn to pray like true Christians. To fail like true Christians. To be martyrs (witnesses) to the gospel which is that Christ tramples down death by death.

    Pray. Be brave. God is good.

  34. Dee of Sts Herman and Olga Avatar
    Dee of Sts Herman and Olga

    Beautifully said dear Father. Thank you so much for your words.

  35. Mallory Avatar
    Mallory

    Thank you, Father. I am grateful for your response, all of them, and this just now, really struck me. I’ll keep it in my mind and heart:

    “We know we will fail. We should not think otherwise. But Christ does not fail. He is victorious. But the victory of Christ is always marked by the Cross. This is the true Orthodox phronema. It is a deep contradiction to the success and prosperity heresy of American Christianity (modernity). We must learn to pray like true Christians. To fail like true Christians. To be martyrs (witnesses) to the gospel which is that Christ tramples down death by death.

    Pray. Be brave. God is good.”

    Matthew, thank you for engaging with my seeking in such good faith, I relate so much to you I feel, even from such a different background so you are not alone! And I am praying for your sister-in-law.

    I wrote out a much longer post that failed to post three different times yesterday, but I’ll take that as a sign to let it all go, and simply say thank you for the gift of these conversations.

  36. Fr. Stephen Avatar

    Mallory,
    I went looking for your posts that did not appear – and they were in the spam filter (and I have no reason why). So, I cleared the last one and it is there. Thank you for your patience!

  37. Alan Avatar
    Alan

    I tend to think of the desire to avoid suffering as being closely linked to the desire to succeed. We’re Americans. We want life to be nice and grand and rosey.
    I could write a counter to that. Instead, I’ll share this link to a wonderful post from a great Priest:

    https://glory2godforallthings.com/2015/05/28/weak-sick-poor-and-tired-a-story-for-losers/

  38. Dee of Sts Herman and Olga Avatar
    Dee of Sts Herman and Olga

    Thanks for your comment, Alan! I’m going to go to the link.

    Meanwhile I’ll add a note to Father Stephen,
    You mentioned that the explosion in converts is ‘not of our doing’ and that the Archbishop said: “In all our efforts we will fail. But, of course, Christians know no success but Christ’s. We know no victory but His. We know no glory but Christ himself.”

    These lines together remind me so much of the Psalmist’s words:” Unless the Lord builds the house, they labor in vain that build it…”

    This Psalm is particularly poignant for me because of what I’m attempting to do in my work life—(long story please forgive the omission), but I know the truth of this, that there is no glory, no light, but Christ Himself.

    I’m grateful when He reveals Himself, His beauty, His presence, in the beauty of nature.

  39. Dana Ames Avatar
    Dana Ames

    Father, I am so sad to hear this about Abp. A. I’ve never been able to actually speak with him, but have been in the same room with him a few times. He has always struck me as someone with a very deep sense of Christ’s presence, and there is joy to his sobriety, as well as settledness. May God preserve him.

    Dana

  40. Matthew Avatar
    Matthew

    I´ve been thinking a lot about what we all have been discussing re: suffering and the futility of the created order. Truth always being told, I still am struggling with it all.

    That said, even if God did subject the created order to futility in order to sew the very Cross of Christ and its sufferings into the fabric of the universe – God also reveals through Genesis the story of a wonderful Garden of Eden. However one may think of this garden – metaphorical, historical or otherwise – it´s a garden that gives me hope; a garden where I want to be trained for garden work. It´s Garden of Eden work that I want to dedicate the rest of my life to.

    In the midst of dinosaurs eating each other; on a veld where lions rip apart zebras; in a world where those in power seek to enrich themselves at the expense of the marginalized; in bodies infected with disease and cancer; in minds overpowered by psychological disorders – in all those places I want to be a gardener of peace and healing; a merciful worker helping to create a beachhead of hope within an atmosphere of terror, pain and suffering all to the glory of Jesus Christ.

    To live any other way seems futile to me.

  41. Fr. Stephen Avatar

    Matthew,
    That is a truly blessed approach!

  42. Matthew Avatar
    Matthew

    Thanks Fr. Stephen.

    This has been a truly fascinating and very challenging discussion. Thanks so much to you and everyone for all the effort.

  43. Rob Avatar
    Rob

    I’ve heard people like Bart Ehrman and Alex O’Connor and their objections to the reality of God based on the problem of suffering. I don’t know what they self-identify as, atheist or agnostic or whatever. I’ve tried to understand to no avail. I’ve wondered if in some cases it’s not a problem of wanting control and to be God and think that we would do it better than God.

    It’s all too high-minded for me. I hope to accept the things I cannot change, to suffer with Christ rather than without him, and to give glory to God for all things…To be sincerely thankful. I’m convinced that this is a miracle that is worked by the grace of God in our hearts and souls through humility and trust. I cannot accomplish any of this on my own.

  44. Mallory Avatar
    Mallory

    Father, thank you again for taking my question so seriously. I’ve been thinking about your response, and I realize I’m still confused about one point. If the suffering of creation is understood as participation in Christ’s Cross, I still don’t understand why creation would need to be structured in such a way from the beginning. In other words, why would divine love choose a world in which predation, disease, and death are intrinsic to creation rather than another kind of world? I don’t mean this as an objection so much as the place where my understanding still seems to stop. Could you say more? Or is it just something that’s impossible to understand if you don’t understand “the Cross”? Which, I must confess, I really can’t grasp except as a concept. And if I’ve misunderstood what you were trying to say, please forgive me.

  45. Matthew Avatar
    Matthew

    If it´s any consolation Mallory, I´ve been a Christian for many years and I still find myself internally perplexed when I stare in wonder at the crucifix in church at Mass or at my icon of the Crucifixion at home.

    The love that is poured out there is incomprehensible to me and as a concept I don´t think it can be grasped at all. All the atonement theories fall short I think.

  46. Dee of Sts Herman and Olga Avatar
    Dee of Sts Herman and Olga

    Matthew,
    I love very much what you wrote to Father Stephen. The peace you have in such work in your own garden is transformative. Not only within yourself but in those around you. Furthermore the effects move ontologically forward and backward in time.

    May we all take the path you described.

    Thank you for your words this morning.

  47. Matthew Avatar
    Matthew

    Thanks also to you Dee. Have a great day!

  48. Mallory Avatar
    Mallory

    Thank you, Matthew, this is very comforting to hear!

  49. Matthew Avatar
    Matthew

    Thank you Mallory. It is great that you are here with all of us. Be blessed.

  50. Simon Avatar
    Simon

    Very interesting reflections on the suffering of creation.

    If God is Love, then the question seems to be, “Then why is creation suffering.” If we are not convinced of God’s Love then the question “why?” erodes faith. If we are convinced of God’s Love, then the “why?” become a matter of endurance.

    Why this world rather than some other world I can conjure with my imagination?

    I don’t know.

    Can I imagine a time when we might see the whole for what it is such that the suffering of all things becomes small by comparison? Yes. What does that mean in practice? Nothing. Nothing at all. BUT, whatever I mean by “see the whole for what it is” that isn’t something we know as a fact, but something we become by communion.

    Apart from communion with Christ–despite all the affirmations in Scripture and the Church’s teachings of God’s Goodness seen in creation–it looks like a madhouse to me.

    There are times when walking in the very early morning hours it seems to me the nature of everything is Love. The world has a heartbeat and a pulse shared by everything in it. Then I see the news…I see children torn from families, destitute, no hope…then I feel that familiar darkness rising inside me.

    I must return my thoughts to Christ in silence because if I don’t I will get confused, fragmented, disoriented, and forgetfulness. I am convinced that is what hell must feel like. In those moments I am in hell–I am in confusion, fragmentation, disorientation, forgetfulness of God.

    Only in Christ in those early morning hours is there any sense or hope that the evil that is before us can be made small.

    It isn’t a matter of whether “If God loves us…?” because he does. So, now it is a matter of “Well, then, why?” and that answer isn’t something we can know. It is something we must become.

  51. Fr. Stephen Avatar

    Simon,
    This is spot on, thank you. I’ve been on the road all day and only just now got a chance to see today’s postings. In this conversation, I’ve been far more “speculative” than usual, mostly working from the thought and teaching of St. Maximus the Confessor. He has been helpful to me. But, like you, this is only something I see at certain moments – not always and not because it makes rational sense. It makes “agape” sense – in that – when I see it – I see the love of God. And, to see the love of God, I stop and come back to the Crucified Christ – that is how I know God loves me and all creation. Only that.

  52. Matthew Avatar
    Matthew

    Thanks so much for your words Simon.

    “I must return my thoughts to Christ in silence because if I don’t I will get confused, fragmented, disoriented, and forgetfulness. I am convinced that is what hell must feel like. In those moments I am in hell–I am in confusion, fragmentation, disorientation, forgetfulness of God.”

    I think I am often in a hellish state. The evil of the created order seems overwhelming and my sins seem too many. I long to be in a truly free place – a place free from anxiety – but I am still trapped mainly in a tangled web of self-preservation. This condition causes me to feel fragmented and disoriented, but I must learn that I cannot think my way out of this conundrum. It is only through deeper and deeper communion with Christ that I can escape this horrible condition and move toward a posture of hope where the evils and sins of the created order are made smaller and smaller.

    May God give me grace to press more and more into this divine communion. May God give me more opportunities to spot early morning natural love in the midst of a created order madhouse!

  53. Simon Avatar
    Simon

    Matthew,

    Thinking might be the last thing we need to do. Often times what we call thinking is just ruminating over troubles: internally rehashing negative emotions. The created order is good. We have made a madhouse of it through our dis-integration and poor behavior (passions).

  54. Matthew Avatar
    Matthew

    Thanks so much Simon.

    I just got back from Mass. I read what you wrote while I waited to speak with the priest. It was perfect timing to say the least.

    I watched a TV special about Laos yesterday. Listening to the Buddhist abbot monk talk about the happy life was good for me. While I am fully grounded in a western identity (for better and for worse) – I think I have always been drawn to the non-Christian parts of eastern cultures.

    I talked with my neighbor today who leans Buddhist. She boldly proclaimed that she has no anxiety. I´m not considering changing religions, but it troubles me that a deeply committed and devout Christian like myself cannot make such a bold proclamation about fear – and she knows I am Catholic.

    I need to know it´s ALL good at its core. The created order. Humans. God. I need to know that all will end well even though I know I have contributed to the madhouse itself in a myriad of ways.

  55. Fr. Stephen Avatar

    Matthew,
    Thoughts on your Buddhist neighbor. Don’t waste time making comparisons. We are none of us equal in any way. We are different, with different backgrounds, different wiring, different injuries, etc. That someone else finds themself to be without anxiety mostly says something about them. They would likely be an unanxious Christian. Christianity is not a product among products – a commodity among commodities. It is simply the question – was Jesus Christ raised from the dead? Is He God incarnate? If so, then that is all that matters. If not, then nothing matters.

    I suspect that whatever troubles you have with anxieties and such are not the result of religion, or failures within it. I suspect they are much like having but one arm (for whatever reason). It’s an injury. I have far more anxiety than my wife. It is, at the least, an artifact of my ADHD. The question for me is, “How do I deal with what I’ve been dealt?” How do I best live with the anxiety that assaults me? It’s a work in progress. God is good. Glory to Him for all things!

  56. Simon Avatar
    Simon

    Matthew, I find much of Daoism fits me quite naturally. Buddhism is very appealing. I am glad that I spent time reading “Barnes and Noble” versions of the Dao De Jing and Dhammapada–and the Upanishads. As well as being fortunate enough to live near communities to discuss what I read with monks, brahmin, and practitioners. I look back on those years fondly.

    Father Stephen is right. There is no need for comparisons. I don’t think you are really looking to make a trade in the marketplace of ideas. What you need to do is decide in yourself where you stand–and they stay there. It’s a lot harder than it sounds. But, all any of us really need to do is just stay put and be vigilant.

    In the parable of the Ten Virgins, Jesus describes ten virgins who were waiting for the bridegroom to arrive, but while he delayed they fell asleep. Jesus says that five of the virgins were foolish and five were discrete. What was it that made the five virgins discrete? They were faithful in their waiting. They were faithful in their vigilance. When the bridegroom arrived they were ready, they were prepared. According to the parable, they all fell asleep waiting for the Bridegroom to arrive while he delayed. The five foolish virgins awoke to realize they were unprepared so they left and went to the marketplace to buy oil. When they returned, they missed the arrival of the Bridegroom. We need to be faithful and prepared. We do not need the distraction of making trades in the marketplace of ideas. It will only contribute to the confusion we might feel. It reminds me of the monk who famously said, “Sit in your cell and your cell will teach you everything.”

    I hope this helps…but, frankly, this is as much for me as it is for you, brother.

  57. Matthew Avatar
    Matthew

    Thank you Fr. Stephen.

    I guess you are right about the source of my anxiety – an anxiety which I then project onto God and God´s creation.

    I think lots of people, though, attempt to make God into their own image and often do so in a poor manner – like me. For example, a retributive God who thirsts for vengeance looks very earthly and human rather than divine and not of this world.

    That´s the kind of thinking I cut my religious teeth on. I am trying to jettision all that, but it is not easy. It appears to be a central part of my DNA unfortunately. As you say … it a work in progress.

  58. Matthew Avatar
    Matthew

    Thank you Simon.

    The following quote just came to me as I reflected more deeply on you comment:

    “Stay put, be vigilant, love deeply.”

    If everyone of us did just that – even those who are of a different religion or no religion at all – maybe we would all experience Christ more communally in some mysterious sort of way.

    Please correct as needed Fr. Stephen.

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