Glory to God For All Things

A Conversation with Paul Kingsnorth

Paul Kingsnorth is a writer, poet, thinker, an Englishman living in Ireland with his family. Many have come to know him through his work in the past few years. He has figured prominently in a number of significant publications and events as various corners of our culture become hungry for conversations and thoughts that make sense of our times. In August of 2020, I received an email from an English writer (Kingsnorth) who had recently become Orthodox. It was a thank you note for my writing. I did not realize then that its author would be speaking to so many about his journey nor so incisively about this time in our lives. I had the pleasure of meeting him face-to-face last year and to renew our acquaintance and friendship. He has a new book appearing this autumn (Against the Machine). Recently, I was invited to do an interview with him regarding Modernity and Orthodox Christianity as part of a promotional series for his new book. I share it here with joy.

About Fr. Stephen Freeman

Fr. Stephen is a retired Archpriest of the Orthodox Church in America. He is also author of Everywhere Present: Christianity in a One-Storey Universe, and Face to Face: Knowing God Beyond Our Shame, as well as the Glory to God podcast series on Ancient Faith Radio.

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41 responses to “A Conversation with Paul Kingsnorth”

  1. Kathy Kay Avatar
    Kathy Kay

    How polite and English of Paul to write you a thank you note. I’m touched on both your behalves. You are both writers whose work I find accessible, relatable, and helpful regarding Orthodoxy – perhaps because you both share a starting point as Westerners but are both passionately Orthodox. So a thank you from me too.

  2. Eric Avatar
    Eric

    Two of my favourite writers – what’s not to like? 🙂
    Thank you Father Stephen

  3. Helen Avatar
    Helen

    Great conversation, Father. Thank you for this notification. “Progress” continues and it’s cloaked in such noble terms. I studied electrical engineering and have worked in technology companies most of my career. I have always felt something not right with the narrative touted about making the world a better place. Our good Father allows for His good purposes while man thinks we are outsmarting Him. Your last statement in the talk to “do the next good thing” is a soothing balm.

  4. Edmund Avatar
    Edmund

    This was a great talk. The church – clergy and laity – are not immune to modernism either (as Anglicanism, for example, shows) which makes the fight that much more difficult. This has always been the case with heresies I suppose. Clergy as a whole, I think, don’t recognise it for the heresy that it is and so don’t speak against it as such, which makes the work that you do so precious Father Stephen.

  5. Fr. Stephen Avatar
    Fr. Stephen

    Helen,
    Thank you. I thought the conversation had a good turn towards the end – in which love and the next good thing are highlighted. We had no script – just a conversation. My own mind is so filled with “rabbit trails” at any given moment that I sometimes fear unguided conversations.

    I have a special place in my heart for the people of the British Isles – it is both the land of my ancestors, but also a place that has played a large role in the life of my mind (Lewis, Tolkien, Chesterton, etc.). It’s cultural collapse over the past century or so is deeply troubling – it’s frequent hostility to Christianity – or traditional Christianity – is quite painful. So, when I encountered Kingsnorth’s own story – his rather far-ranging explorations (Buddhism, Paganism, Eco-paganism, etc.) that eventually found him as a “reluctant convert” to Orthodox Christianity – it is a stark reminder that the grace of God is sufficient in the struggles that I probably allow to frighten me from time to time. St. Paul’s life – from persecutor to saint – should stand as a constant reminder that God’s providence is working all things together for good.

    I daily delight in our conversations here. May God preserve us all.

  6. Fr. Stephen Avatar
    Fr. Stephen

    Edmund,
    Thank you. Heresies don’t come out of nowhere, and they have historically often served the purpose of sharpening our understanding of the faith. I trust that in the long run – it will be the case that modernity’s challenges will do the same. Modernity will collapse (indeed, we’re already seeing many such examples). But I do not think its collapse will be followed by a period of “Christendom.” That thing is well behind us, I think. So, part of resisting the temptations of modernity’s false ideas is coming to grips with how to live as faithful Christians when we don’t own the culture. May God preserve us!

  7. victoria Avatar
    victoria

    “Mountain Saints”. Hallelujah. That warmed my heart to hear you refer to the people of your ministry during our hospice chaplaincy that way.

  8. Matthew Avatar
    Matthew

    I would agree that Christendom is pretty much behind us. I was reminded of this when a friend sent photos from England which featured the ruins of ancient churches. I was also reminded of this when my wife showed me an article about ideas for how to secularize empty churches in Germany and other parts of western Europe. Cultural centers and office space were two big ideas.

    As I was exiting Protestantism, there was a lot of talk and speculation in some circles about how the church in the west would survive secularism and modernity. Sadly, it seems much of Protestantism simply surrenders to modernity´s demands rather than actually addressing its dark underbelly.

    Where will we all be when the curtain finally falls? Probably back to the margins like where the early church began. Some will see this as a very scary reality. Others may breathe a collective sigh of relief. Either way change is coming if it hasn´t already. I appreciate voices like Paul Kingsnorth and Fr. Stephen who together are not afraid to speak the truth about modernity and who offer a way forward in this very critical time for the Church and society.

  9. Fr. Stephen Avatar
    Fr. Stephen

    Matthew,
    I’ve not quite got a handle on how to say this – but I think that a huge part of the “heresy” of secularism is the place that “politics” and the “state” play in the popular mind of the culture. I am convinced that, in some manner, the thing we call “politics” is a religious notion – not secularism – but secularism as a religion. It’s interesting to me that if you speak against voting – you’ll get far more push back than anyone who speaks against attending Church. We “believe” in voting, or some such thing.

    I suspect that the religion of modernity is about controlling the outcome of history (“managing the world”). The culture wars are, sadly, an argument about who should be in charge of the outcome of history. It is not actually our war – except that when we participate in it (regardless of our position), we’ve already agreed with the enemy.

    It is why I stick to saying “do the next good thing” (it’s a refusal to control the outcome of history), and to practice radical, self-emptying love (which is only possible because Christ is risen).

    Hauerwas, whom I studied under, once said, “A Christian should live their life in such a way that if the Kingdom of God has not come in Jesus Christ, then their life will have been absurd.” or something to that effect.

  10. Helen Avatar
    Helen

    Narrow is the path and its nnarrowness has never changed I think. It’s just become more evident. There really is a way through and it has nothing to do with our ideas and solutions. It is the Way…

  11. Ook Avatar
    Ook

    Modernity is a parasitical political movement with Christianity as its host, now at the stage at which the parasite is a twisted, empty, and vengeful ghost wearing the skin of the host it devoured, even as that skin crumbles into dust.
    So what’s “the next good thing”? I cannot imagine.

  12. Fr. Stephen Avatar
    Fr. Stephen

    Ook,
    The next good thing – is whatever is next to us. Whatever requires kindness, generosity, love, mercy – keeping the commandments of Christ. I think it drives lots of folks crazy that Christians aren’t in charge of everything. And, of course, is quite silly for Orthodox Christians in America – where we’re about 1 percent of the population. A piece of advice I once heard was “the Church needs to be the Church.” There’s lots of “Churching” all around us waiting to be done.

    Also, love your enemies, we’ve got plenty of them as well.

  13. Matthew Avatar
    Matthew

    Amen Helen.

  14. Ook Avatar
    Ook

    Thank you Father. Indeed, the Church needs to be the Church.

  15. Alan Avatar
    Alan

    Amen Father! I too have noticed that if you dare tell your Christian friends that you are…..gasp….not voting, it seems as though you’ll get more pushback than if you had told them you were renouncing Christianity. Very revealing.

  16. Fr. Stephen Avatar
    Fr. Stephen

    Alan,
    As I tell people: Christians should not “believe” in America. You can live here and you can like it. But countries are not things you “believe in.” “I believe in One God.” That’s enough. No pretenders.

    It’s ok to vote. I do it sometimes. But I don’t believe in it.

  17. Dee of Sts Herman and Olga Avatar
    Dee of Sts Herman and Olga

    Father,
    I’m a little confused. Did you mean to say to Alan: “But countries are *not* things you “believe in”. (?)

    Your discussion on modernity over the years has been illuminating for me as well, Father. Through your writings, I, too, have gained a better understanding of the contrast between Orthodoxy and modernism. It helps me to feel more solid (less toxic shame) in my differences as an Orthodox Christian. These discussions are important and edifying.

  18. Matthew Avatar
    Matthew

    Thanks Fr. Stephen.

    I have largely given up on politics, though I know those around me (Christian or not) think I have given up on trying to change the world.

    Maybe that´s a good thing to have given up on?

    🙂

  19. Ben Avatar
    Ben

    Thank you, Father. I really enjoyed watching the conversation.

    The part about death really stood out to me. Coincidentally, I recently saw a conversation with Fr. John Behr about death, and in his view one of the biggest changes with modernity was that death was removed, or hid, from our lifes. Nowadays we rarely see death up close.

    I feel that this removal (or hiding) of death is highly problematic. What, Father, would be a good way to start contemplating death (taking into account our modern, problematic relation towards it)?

  20. Fr. Stephen Avatar
    Fr. Stephen

    Dee,
    My mistake – I fixed it.

  21. Fr. Stephen Avatar
    Fr. Stephen

    Ben,
    Make friends with some older folks…would be a possibility. People don’t like to talk about death (they’re frightened and uncertain and the culture tells them not to talk about it). But, that might be a source. As I’m aging, my body makes me think about it a lot.

    Visit cemeteries a bit. Pray for those who are there.

  22. Ben Avatar
    Ben

    Thank you, Father. These things I can do.

  23. Fr. Stephen Avatar
    Fr. Stephen

    Ben,
    I am told that on Mt Athos, the young (new) monks are given the task of visiting and praying in the room where the bones of earlier monks are kept. I’ve seen photos and it’s rather astonishing. The notion is for the young monk to reconcile himself to the fact that this, too, will be his end…and to get over it.

    That’s pretty typical of Athonite spirituality.

    But, for us, I suggest that we be patient with ourselves. Visiting a cemetery was, once upon a time, a very common, normal thing. When I was young here in the South, we had “Decoration Day” on which we cleaned and cared for the graves at the Church or elsewhere. The old graveyards are very peaceful, lovely places sometimes. The newer ones (as where my parents are buried) are a bit too plain…no headstones, almost nowhere to sit down.

    But, in being patient, that is always the way with “insights.” They come. May God give you grace.

  24. Matthew Avatar
    Matthew

    Fr. Stephen said:

    “Visiting a cemetery was, once upon a time, a very common, normal thing. When I was young here in the South, we had “Decoration Day” on which we cleaned and cared for the graves at the Church or elsewhere. The old graveyards are very peaceful, lovely places sometimes.”

    Agreed. Here in Germany both Catholics and Reformed (state church) Protestants have days dedicated for remembering those who have died. Many people use those days to clean and decorate graves. I did it for many years with my mother-in-law. We drove from cemetery to cemetery cleaning and decorating graves of friends and family. I found the whole experience very therapeutic, even when I was wrapped up in a theological paradigm that mocked such practices.

    Last week, my wife and sister-in-law (with my help) finally finished my mother-in-law´s grave which is in a nearby church graveyard. We planted shrubs and other plants and placed stepping stones in the earth around the grave. This experience was also very therapeutic and good for my soul. I thought about my mother-in-law and the very good relationship I was blessed to have had with her. I thought about my own death and burial and what will be written on my headstone.

  25. Fr. Stephen Avatar
    Fr. Stephen

    Matthew,
    Thanks for sharing that. It’s good to know that these practices continue. Europe often remembers what America so quickly forgets. When I was Rector of a large Episcopal parish, we had a “roll of remembrance” in the Narthex – the names of our members departed through the years. I created it (sort of a caligraphy project and updated each year before All Souls’ Day). On All Souls’ Day, the list was read during the Eucharist – I buried some 120 people in my 9 years in that parish – my part of the list being quite significant. I left that parish to become Orthodox, and worked the next 2 years as a hospice chaplain – with about 3 deaths per week. It did become something of an emotional burden for a while.

    But – how human! To remember and care for the graves of those who’ve gone before. We do far too little of such things. We’re not allowed to do any grave care at the cemetery where my parents are buried – just sad.

    But practices that are “traditional” are often simply practices that are “human.” They are built out of love, remembrance, kindness, and more.

  26. Ben Avatar
    Ben

    Father, Matthew,

    Indeed, such practices sound wonderfully human, so necessary.

    Father, thank you for reminding me to be patient. 🙂

  27. Carolyn Avatar
    Carolyn

    Matthew, your in Germany. How interesting. Yes, you would definitely understand the importance of tending a grave more than Americans in America. My husband is German. Im not sure if this is part of your German family’s tradition, but my husband’s tradition is from the Russian-German Mennonite(Volga Germans) heritage. Its very common to take photos at the funeral. We visited his aunt several years ago and she asked if we would like to look at the photo album. It was devoted to family funerals, with various families standing around the open casket (or closed casket if that was necessary). In America taking those types of photos with the departed just seems so strange, but I think it helps folks grieve.

    And the burial plots in Germany are leased for a certain number of years, so you or family members are required to take care of that little piece of land. Those cemeteries look like beautiful gardens.

  28. Brandi Avatar
    Brandi

    This was a wonderful conversation, Father. I think you could talk about cardboard, and I would learn something profound. I thank God He “made you Orthodox.” It has been a blessing to all who encounter you in person, in word, or voice. ❤️

  29. Simon Avatar
    Simon

    Fr. Stephen, I like what you said about belief. The problem with the word belief is that it doesn’t really mean anything. In most cases it is purely a psychological phenomenon: Those ideas about which we have the greatest sense of psychological certainty. In the case of Protestantism, or any ism, the psychological dimension is masked by “I believe it to be true in my heart”, which is almost menacing.

    Where does that place Christian faith and belief? I think that it is ontological– not psychological, not ideological, not even theological, unless by that you mean theoria. In truth, I don’t know what that means, but what I do know is that if belief is merely the psychological assent, then it isn’t better than any other ideological system out there.

    I am persuaded however that unless the body is attended to we may never be sufficiently transparent to the ontological domain that it might shine through.

  30. Fr. Stephen Avatar
    Fr. Stephen

    Brandi,
    I’m not imagining a Youtube series: “The Cardboard Conversations…” Thanks!

  31. Matthew Avatar
    Matthew

    Hello Carolyn.

    Yes … you are correct. Normally the burial plots in Germany are leased for a number of years. I´m not certain how long my mother-in-law´s is leased for, but your comment has inspired me to check into it.

    I know that the condition of some graves are less than tidy, but I think that probably means the lease has run out or there are no longer living relatives who desire to care for the grave.

  32. Fr. Stephen Avatar
    Fr. Stephen

    Simon,
    I think of Gal. 5:6 that speaks of faith (belief) that “works by love.” Which makes it something that is involves the whole being. So, we are told to “love the Lord Our God, with all our heart, all your soul, and all your mind…” essentially meaning “the whole self.”

  33. Matthew Avatar
    Matthew

    Rational assent to a set of theological propositions saves no one.

  34. Fr. Stephen Avatar
    Fr. Stephen

    Matthew,
    Indeed!

    I return (again and again) to the image of marriage – one that is offered us in the Scriptures. Imagine, if you will, entering a marriage in which the basis is an assent to a set of propositions. The texts of marriage services would sure look a lot different!

  35. Matthew Avatar
    Matthew

    Thanks so much Fr. Stephen.

  36. Matthew Avatar
    Matthew

    Fr. Stephen,

    Have you listened to and/or have you provided a link to Paul Kingsnorth’s interview entitled (I think) The Myth of the Machine?

    A great introduction to his thinking for those who are unaware …

  37. Fr. Stephen Avatar
    Fr. Stephen

    Matthew,
    I have not. I subscribe to his “Abbey of Misrule” (substack) and enjoy his articles.

  38. Matthew Avatar
    Matthew

    The interview is worth the cost of about 1 hour or so …

  39. Nicole from VA Avatar
    Nicole from VA

    I have often thought that in the Garden the enemy misled Adam and Eve by misleading them to believe that God is withholding

    Listening to this I see the parallel in modernity that we accuse God of withholding from us a job. We seek to make the world “a better place” in our aggressive manner rather than trusting God will indeed give us that opportunity to ‘do the next good thing’ in His time and as He makes present to us.

    I know that for years I had it backwards, do good to get to Heaven when really it is that God gives His loving presence to us now, which makes it possible to serve others with less fear and less of an agenda

    That we can encounter others in their sickness and weakness and that be a true encounter both with that person and with Christ makes the fleeing from physicality of a machine based utopia even more lost and sorrowful. The true and real opportunity is fully missed because the Cross is a scandal to the wisdom of this world

    And the nursing point was so good. We had a nursery in our parish with an Icon of the Milkgiver I think it is called, the Theotokos nursing Christ. No machine can even come close to the quality of what God gives us naturally in a mother’s milk.

    I see so much of Enron in Artificial Intelligence. A collapse waiting to happen, cloaked temporarily in a mystique of brilliance

    It was good to hear your voice, Father Stephen, after many years enriched by your writing

  40. Fr. Stephen Avatar
    Fr. Stephen

    Nicole,
    An additional thought (as I think of your comment): we fail to notice how “middle-class American” making the world a better place, approaching the world in an aggressive manner really is. Imagine preaching the gospel to a group of slaves – and concluding by telling them that they “should make the world a better place.” That’s not really the gospel – that’s the story of management. And managing the world is the narrative of modernity’s mythology. It’s not Christianity.

    The gospel is so much more radical. It was good news to the poor, the weak, the hungry, slaves, prostitutes, etc., “and the rich He has sent away empty.” The “next good thing” is at hand for the poorest of the poor (indeed, I have seen the most radical generosity pretty much only among that kind of poverty).

    We can get there by giving away our wealth (we seem to overlook that shortcut), but there is a “wealth” (our power, our management, our excellence, etc.) that can be given away in favor of our weakness, our infirmity, our vulnerability, our uselessness, etc. The next good thing washes the feet of the disciples, etc.

  41. Terry Avatar
    Terry

    Dear Fr Stephen,
    this was a wonderful conversation I found it most inspiring. I am wondering if at some stage you could write an article around the ideas you expressed in the last 10 minutes especially about what you meant about modern smart phones and social media “hollowing out” our minds This was an inspired response from yourself
    I keep hearing you say, “I just tell people to do the next good thing”

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