Worshipping a Weak and Foolish God

I cannot begin to measure the amount of time I have spent over the years in conversations about the “problem of evil.” That problem, in short, is the impossibility of reconciling an all-powerful, all-knowing, all-good God with the presence of suffering, injustice, and evil in the world. Those conversations often involve listening to a deeply felt pain. “Why does God allow…?” runs the refrain. The impossibility in the conundrum suggests that something is wrong in the question – or that there is no God.

The answer is that there is no such God.

The French philosopher, Paul Ricoeur, once described three men as the “Masters of Suspicion”: Karl Marx, Friedrich Nietzsche, and Sigmund Freud. The term well describes their efforts to undermine the hidden motives of classical thought. Freud dismissed God as nothing more than a parental projection. Marx saw economic motives in religion, the “opiate of the people.” Nietzsche’s critique is too complex to explore in this setting. However, these men are but weathervanes in a cultural drive that has consistently sought to replace “God” with our own efforts. The serpent’s whispered suggestion, “You shall be like gods” echoes down through the centuries. My contention is that the Masters of Suspicion, and their many lesser figures, have all been arguing against a “straw God,” that is, a God who not only does not exist, but does not resemble the God Whom Christians properly worship. And, I should add, many Christians frequently forget this to be the case. We try to defend the God who is not there. We generally come up short and frustrated.

So, Whom do we worship?

St. Paul boldly wrote:

“For Jews request a sign, and Greeks seek after wisdom; but we preach Christ crucified, to the Jews a stumbling block and to the Greeks foolishness, but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.” (1 Cor. 1:22–25)

“And I, brethren, when I came to you, did not come with excellence of speech or of wisdom declaring to you the testimony of God. For I determined not to know anything among you except Jesus Christ and Him crucified.” (1 Cor. 2:1–2)

In recent times we have this wonderful declaration by Fr. Thomas Hopko, of blessed memory:

I believe we have only one thing to offer, and it is Christ as Christ really is. I think that’s what Orthodoxy really is. It’s a conviction about Christ as Christ really is. And that’s the Christ of the Holy Scriptures, the Christ of the sacraments, the Christ of the services of the Church, the Christ of the development of theological doctrine, it’s Christ as Christ is. And here Christianity, we have to remember always, is – all theology, the word of God – is for Orthodox Christians, stavrology [stavros=cross (Gk.)].  I like to say that theologia is stavrologia….The word of God is the word of the Cross. We witness to, preach, confess, make a defense of, Christ and Him crucified, as being the power of God and the wisdom of God….And that’s all we have to give and all we need.

In another place Hopko says:

The Cross for us is not God concealing Himself. God is revealed on the Cross, not concealed.

I have particularly drawn from Fr. Thomas’ words as a touchstone of Orthodoxy. Typical of his work – these are statements that are definitive in character. “The word of God is the word of the Cross.”

It remains, however, to think about what this means.

It would seem that, for many, the “God” whom they imagine is the God of the philosophers with the Crucified Christ as an interesting historical interlude. In the worst of such treatments, “God” is pictured as punishing His only Son for our sins. Christ becomes the victim of the Father.

However, we do not know God apart from Christ. It is Christ who has made Him known.

No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him. (John 1:18)

It is worth considering that even in the opening chapters of Genesis, the God in Whose image we are made is none other than the Crucified Christ. Thus, as the Fathers and the liturgies note, Adam is caused to sleep, and from his side Eve is fashioned. It is according to the image of Christ, who “sleeps” in death on the Cross, whose side is pierced. Blood and water flow from His side from which His bride, the Church, is fashioned. This is no accident, nor a mere coincidence of creative interpretation. This is how the Church reads the Scriptures.

There have been plenty of efforts across the Christian centuries to impose the philosopher’s God (or worse) on the Church. Christ says to the authorities:

You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me. (John 5:39)

We read the Scriptures through Christ that we might see Christ and, in Him, be transformed. The transformation that we seek is to be conformed to the image of His crucifixion.

I am crucified with Christ, nevertheless, I live; yet, not I, but Christ lives in me. And the life that I now live in the flesh, I live by the faith of the Son of God who loved me and gave Himself for me. (Gal. 2:20)

More than anything, Christ Crucified is a revelation to humanity that God is love. However, it teaches us that love is not coercive. The philosopher’s God is expected to selectively coerce, controlling evil and rewarding the good. The scandal of the Cross is that it reveals the weakness of God who, in love, suffers Himself and His creation to endure evil, “overcoming evil by doing good” (in the words of St. Paul). It is not the God that many imagine themselves to want. It is, however, God as He has made Himself known.

About Fr. Stephen Freeman

Fr. Stephen is a retired Archpriest of the Orthodox Church in America. He is also author of Everywhere Present: Christianity in a One-Storey Universe, and Face to Face: Knowing God Beyond Our Shame, as well as the Glory to God podcast series on Ancient Faith Radio.



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115 responses to “Worshipping a Weak and Foolish God”

  1. Peggy Fanning, CSJ, Ph.D. Avatar

    Thank you for your thoughtful, meaningful, insightful theological insights. They are unique and profound!

  2. Randall Avatar
    Randall

    Thank you, Father, for continuing to teach & give us insight. No wonder so many of us ex-Lutheran pastors are now Orthodox! Fr. Hopkins ‘stavrologia’ sounds like Luther’s ‘theology of the Cross’.

  3. christa-maria Dolejsi Avatar
    christa-maria Dolejsi

    God is omnipotent, yet He chooses to be weak. What gall! This goes against everything the world teaches. He has foreknowledge, but does not manipulate events. Could one say that God gives us the strength to be weak? I don’t understand, but I do have faith in this God.
    Yet, How to reconcile the conquering Christ of rightousness held up as a banner on the political stage of the world across the ages? and more probmatically for me in our own time?
    I pray, I do the works that come before me by God’s grace. I cry. I was listening as others were talking about this after church. Is there any communal church response? What is and where is the church’s witness for peace? I suppose that simply Being the church itself is the answer. There are the monastics, there are the church missions. Years ago I worked in Haiti, I’ve worked at the county jail here….even having a family..it has all been a mission. I guess I am working out my own answer. There is plenty of mission right here. What I long for is more like-minded people.

  4. Matthew Avatar
    Matthew

    I think Nietzsche´s declaration “God is dead” is often misunderstood.

    Nietzsche feared that the Enlightenment was shaking the very foundations of western civilization (and it was — it did). The religious beliefs of the west were the very foundation of society … so what would happen to society once they were completely eroded … or when God dies?

    Nietzsche´s answer to that question was the Übermensch (Overman). Much more could be said, but Google saves all of us so many typed words!

    I find it very much a blessing that the Orthodox Church didn´t do through the upheaval that the western church did …. but I know there are many moderns out there who probably deeply disagree with my statement.

    🙂

  5. Michael Bauman Avatar
    Michael Bauman

    Christa-Maria.

    I have a friend who has taken on the task of caring for his aging and increasingly incompetent parents. By God’s blessing, the worldly assets are there. Yet “world peace” comes as each of us; as I respond in love and thanksgiving for all things and people in my life.

    War is a condition of our falleness just as peace comes from the repentance of each of us.

    Living through the 60’s, participating during the 80’s with “Churches United for Peace Making” and then being blessed to encounter the Church and Our Lord has led me more and more to rely on the
    understanding that if I desire peace, I must live a
    peaceful life.

  6. Michael Bauman Avatar
    Michael Bauman

    Matthew,
    I was assigned Nietzsche as my final major project my senior year in college as a history major. I read (in translation) every thing he wrote and his major academic interpreters.

    It is much as you suggest but as he points out in “The Use and abuse of History”. The ‘personal’ (not the individual) must overcome the destruction of the corporate but a hierarchy still prevails.

    His big mistake was making God a creation of mankind through largely corporate means, and thus “dead”.

    He saw even the highest with the ability to love and respond to an even greater Person in Jesus Christ (of the God Head) either personally or corporately to manifest His Kingdom without utter destruction.

    We and the Church have largely bought his vision seeking power and control rather than repentance and worship.

    Simply having “the Church” is not enough, we must BE the Church and all that means.

    So far, only the greatest of saints come anywhere close–God forgive me least of all me or my congregation.

    Still, we are not alone in our struggles and Jesus Mercy is available to those who seek it: personally and corporately.

    May His Mercy be with you in all ways

  7. Matthew Avatar
    Matthew

    Thanks so much Michael!

  8. Michael Bauman Avatar
    Michael Bauman

    Matthew, much more to be said, but my dear wife is cautioning me. I am glad I was understood.

  9. Michael Bauman Avatar
    Michael Bauman

    Matthew, if you want to delve more into Nietzsche, I recommend Walter Kaufman and Nikos Kanzantakis in addition to a couple of N’s own works: “The Use and Abuse of History” and “The Will to Power”.

    By God’s Mercy, studying Nietzsche and “The Modern” prepared my mind to look for ‘more’ AND my heart to accept the Church when She was offered to me.

    God is merciful

  10. Janine Avatar
    Janine

    Thanks for this Father. Recently I was reading in Luke, the parables all given together of the Lost Sheep, Lost Coin, Prodigal (Lost) Son. It speaks so much of a God who desires us so much!! So your words about the Cross hit home in that we cannot likely grasp that deep love and desire of God for us. If we know love and desire, imagine how great God’s love and desire for us is. I begin to think of that love as God’s “gravity” which pulls us toward God. Maybe God is crucified by our resistance to it

  11. Matthew Avatar
    Matthew

    Thanks again Michael!

  12. Fr. Stephen Avatar

    Janine,
    There is, additionally, the mystery of the “Lamb slain from the foundation of the world,” mentioned in Revelation (by St. John). None of us can speculate about “what would have happened if…” However, as Fr. Hopko noted, the Cross does not conceal God, but reveals Him. What we see on the Cross is the love of God displayed very clearly. It certainly overcomes and heals our sin – or reconciles us to God – but, in some mysterious way, I think (inasmuch as it reveals God) He is/was always crucified, and not just by our sins. But more than that I cannot say – it’s my intuition.

  13. Michael Bauman Avatar
    Michael Bauman

    What Father says is just the opposite to Nietzsche. So clearly and completely opposite that, while still being revealed, N prepared me for both the deep and real Person of Christ as well as the reality of the Cross in all of life.

  14. Michael Bauman Avatar
    Michael Bauman

    Father, if I may suggest: the Way of the Cross as revealed in the person of Jesus is just the opposite to the lies of the world as postulated by Nietzsche, the Evil One, et. al. so as to make anything less as partaking of “death” which Christ on the Cross overcomes as we allow it and participate in it.

    Does that sound about right?

  15. Gerhardt Jacobs Avatar
    Gerhardt Jacobs

    Janine,

    (I love your analogy of God’s love as gravity that pulls us toward God. This of course is the opposite of the gravity of a black hole that pulls those who fall into its orbit toward destruction and a darkness so dense that light itself cannot escape from it.)

    Now to my initial post:

    The cross and Christ crucified is a Paradox, a Divine Mystery that we must embrace to understand. We cannot know God and the way of Jesus Christ by rationalization, reason alone, or even worship, but only by picking up the cross of Christ that becomes our own cross when we own it, an imitation of Christ that reveals Christ within us and our own unique identity as sons and daughters of God.

    St. Paul’s actions spoke as loudly if not more so than his writing and his words. The weakness and foolishness of God points to God’s transcendence and the immutable strength of love that passes all understanding, that Paul intimated. Often it is what human beings see as foolish or insane that is a reality simply beyond their grasp or comprehension, which history itself bears out again and again, even with such things as vaccines or the discovery that the earth revolves around the sun, not the opposite.

    Paradox is the language of God. Paul grasped this paradox through faith and incarnated in his life and ministry the resurrected reality of Jesus.

  16. Janine Avatar
    Janine

    Thanks Father and Gerhardt.

    I couldn’t imagine that I could fathom that deep mystery of the Lamb slain (and standing!), Father. But I started just thinking about it in light of the conversation. I was thinking about the Lamb of course as Passover Lamb. But also sacrifice, meaning perhaps we were always — from the foundation of the world — meant to partake of Him; or that God’s great love for God’s creation was always meant to be shown in the Son by this sacrifice… well, who knows? But it is an amazing thing to ponder indeed.

    I guess we could also think of the Passover as leading to Exodus (a new beginning, a journey forward in faith) just as the Cross leads to Resurrection. The sacrificial aspect sure seems to suggest, as I think Michael was saying, that it’s a principle that we need to lose our lives to find them

    I suppose in the Fathers there are many considerations of aspects of this!

    Gerhardt thanks for reminding about the language of paradox. I suppose it is our true poetry

  17. Michael Bauman Avatar
    Michael Bauman

    Gerhardt, would you agree that part of the Paradox for us is also “picking up” or embracing the Joy of Jesus and the Christ despite paradox and difficulty? Or am I wrong?

  18. Eric Dunn Avatar
    Eric Dunn

    You bring out the best in truth!

  19. Gerhardt Jacobs Avatar
    Gerhardt Jacobs

    Michael,

    Yes, the joy of Jesus is the point and to be embraced and experienced. From my experience, Joy is resurrected life, grace, theosis. The cross is not only about suffering, asceticism, sacrifice, and death, but is most perfectly about love, and this love is the vehicle of joy. The way of the cross is the way of love, and love in extremis, in ultimacy, and purity becomes the high, angelic, vibration of joy that pierces our hearts and minds.

    There is an Orthodox Cathedral in San Francisco called the Joy of All Who Sorrow where St. John of SF was a priest and is entombed incorrupt. The joy of all who sorrow is another paradox because in common secular terms sorrow seems the opposite of joy. In Christ, sorrow, the sorrow of the cross brings joy. I say this because the world is full of what Rev Dietrich Bonhoeffer, the author of The Cost of Discipleship, called “cheap grace.” This is grace or a feel good experience and often emotional encounter that is superficial and fleeting, perhaps like getting high on a recreational drug or alcohol, or even at a charismatic evangelical service. This is often grace without the cross, without personal cost and spiritual growth.

  20. Ook Avatar
    Ook

    While one can certainly say that “Marx saw economic motives in religion”, the quote about the “opiate” is unfortunate. It’s part of a passage where religion is described as the “heart of a heartless world…soul of soulless conditions” and in that context “opiate” is a balm, not a tool for manipulation.
    “Critique of Hegel’s Philosophy of Right” (where the quote appears) starts by describing, poetically, how ideology can function in religion as a starting point for an broader analysis of ideological forms that sustain systems of domination; attempting to move away from Hegelian abstract ideals. Replacing God wasn’t the point of the Critique and his snappy one-liner about religion probably should have been removed by a good editor.

  21. Michael Bauman Avatar
    Michael Bauman

    What a good point to make Mr. Jacobs: the existence of “cheap Grace” and counterfeit Joy. Thank you.

  22. Barbara Lehto Avatar
    Barbara Lehto

    Thank you, Father Stephen, for your wise reflection and sharing also those of Fr. Thomas Hopko. Your description of the human creation of a philosopher’s God speak deeply to me and also brings conviction of the errant path it has taken me on.

  23. Fr. Stephen Avatar

    Ook,
    There wasn’t space in the article to fit the whole of Riceour’s analysis of the Masters of Suspicion. 🙂

  24. Matthew Avatar
    Matthew

    I think I want to push back a little if I may. What I experienced as an evangelical charismatic was neither “cheap grace” nor counterfeit joy. What I can say about those experiences and that time in my spiritual journey is that I was still very much a babe in the faith. That said, simply because I was a babe doesn´t make the experiences any less real. I see those times now as very special beginnings; a time when spiritual experience was all very new to me.

    I now find myself in a much different place; a place that I hope is moving me to the next level of spiritual transformation. I am ready for meat when for the longest time I was drinking only milk. God can and does act in all places and spaces. For that I am thankful.

  25. christa-maria Dolejsi Avatar
    christa-maria Dolejsi

    Micheal. “world peace comes…as I respond in love and thanksgiving for all things and people in my life” and ” Peace comes from the repentance of each of us” Oh for the grace to be that person and continue on! Thank you.

  26. Matthew Avatar
    Matthew

    Or any less joyful …

  27. Nathan Fischer Avatar
    Nathan Fischer

    Matthew, I wonder if both can be true. Your experiences may have led you further up and further in. I grew up in Texas, and I had many friends who were evangelical Christians for whom their charismatic experiences were not enough to sustain them and they have all largely abandoned Christianity entirely.

    Perhaps important to note is that Bonhoeffer himself, when he travelled to America, was deeply moved by African American spirituality. He found something deep and authentic in it.

  28. Matthew Avatar
    Matthew

    Further up and further in …

    I think that is a good way to describe (in part at least) things pertaining to my Christian past, Nathan. Thank you.

    I have no connections with the people I used to be in those circles with. I sometimes wonder how they are doing, if they have grown, if things have changed for them, etc.

    The Church sacramentally gives Jesus Christ Himself to us in the Eucharistic celebration. His Body. His Blood. For our salvation. I missed this experience for so many years. No charismatic experience (IMO) can compare to this.

    It reminds me of when I left the Catholic Church so many years ago. I remember asking a priest what I would lose by leaving the Catholic Church for evangelical life. He didn´t bat an eye … he just clearly answered “The sacraments”. I had no idea what he meant at the time. I do now.

  29. Janine Avatar
    Janine

    Father, have you written on the “Lamb slain from the foundation of the world” in light of our present discussion and the Cross? Or do you plan to? (I hope so).

    You have really sparked a trail for me here. I keep thinking that the sacrifice of Christ is something that gives us an identity that outlives everything else (in that “partaking” sense of sacrifice), no matter how far flung or scattered our lives might be or become. and that sacrifice is for all of creation. In that sacrifice, the community becomes all of creation.

    Interiorly, trauma seems a type of fracturing. In Christ’s sacrifice and our partaking, there is also unification that supersedes that kind of internal splintering or fracturing effect of trauma. (Hope it doesn’t sound like gibberish to others.) This identity becomes important for healing

  30. Fr. Stephen Avatar

    Matthew,
    I agree. It is all too easy to judge what is going on in someone else (“cheap grace”) without knowing anything at all of their story or inner experience.

  31. Simon Avatar
    Simon

    Would the group indulge a hypothetical. Let’s assume that science and technology removes suffering from human experience. By suffering I mean starvation, disease, and human oppression. Please, just be patient with this hypothetical. What I am hearing the article here and another article Fr. Stephen linked to is that is like taking people down from their cross. That even the effort to make the world disease and pain free is misguided.

    We can cast the search for a suffering-free world as something that is a product of modernity or that it is hubris to think that it is futile for humanity to even think it has the wisdom to achieve such a misdirected goal. But then how do we understand Jesus’ own actions to relieve people of their diseases and their suffering? What about promises like Rev 21: “And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God. And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away.” The desire for life free of suffering seems to be reflected and affirmed in the scriptures. It isn’t some perverted desires spawned by modernity.

    What I hear in this post and in the linked post is that suffering is the kernel of reality and underlying all reality is a suffering God that is revealed by Christ on the Cross. Therefore, the effort to make human life free of the burden of suffering goes against the grain, it goes against the fabric of reality. Saying that the Universe, Creation, and Humanity are all cruciform in nature–made in the image of a suffering God–is saying that we were created to suffer. And that the effort to relieve suffering is like taking Christ off the Cross.

    I don’t want my children to suffer. I don’t. Not at all. And if I am suffering in order to make their lives free of suffering, that is okay because that is what parents do. They suffer so that their children do. not have to.

    Maybe it is wrong not to start at the cross. But the cross isn’t something I know anything about. It is something I have heard about from other people. It is something that I have read about. In some ways it is a hypothetical, or a symbol to be interpreted. What I actually know about my daughters smile, my son’s laugh. That’s what I know. That’s all I know. And I do not want them to suffer at all. I want them to grow under the burden of challenges and difficulty. But I do not want them to suffer. And if that means that I do not want them to live a cruciform life, then I guess that’s what that means.

  32. Janine Avatar
    Janine

    Thank you Father

  33. Simon Avatar
    Simon

    Is the effort to create a life free of suffering the equivalent of Peter saying to Christ, “God forbid it, Lord! This must never happen to you.” And then what happens does Christ then look at us and say “Get behind me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to me; for you are setting your mind not on divine things but on human things.”

    It’s a serious question. I am not being argumentative.

  34. Fr. Stephen Avatar

    Simon,
    I understand your point(s). I think, first off, that you’ve pushed what I’ve said to a sort of extreme statement that I have not made, in order to raise objections. Modernity really doesn’t have any new ideas. It has borrowed and twisted earlier ideas and removed them from a more grounded context. For example, with regard to suffering – as you note, Christ Himself relieves suffering and He tells us to care for those who suffer and to help them. Modernity will take an idea like that and run with it to extremes. Thus it can argue that almost any reasonable boundary or refusal to indulge someone’s demand(s) might cause them to suffer and perhaps even take their own life. I’ll not go into the details of that – but you know the situations to which I’m alluding.

    Modernity does not have a good and healthy account of human suffering – only that life must be improved, etc., and often causes even more suffering as it “improves” the wealth of a few, etc.

    You don’t want your children to suffer. Who does? Nevertheless, they will suffer, despite our best efforts. The question is, how can we support them properly when that inevitability comes their way? Modernity is simply an insufficient narrative. It’s too thin.

    The short account that I’ve given of the Cross is a door – a means of understanding and looking deeper. In the course of my life and ministry, I’ve given huge amounts of time to the ministry of care for others – from feeding the hungry, to far less obvious things. And the Cross, Christ crucified, takes me there.

    What I would ask is: Do you want your children to know love and to be able to love in a healthy manner?

    I suspect we agree about that.

  35. Fr. Stephen Avatar

    Simon,
    It has an aspect of that “free from suffering” argument – but I think that reducing it to that may be too abstract.

  36. Simon Avatar
    Simon

    I am not raising objections for the sake of raising objections.

    Above, you say that “The philosopher’s God is expected to selectively coerce, controlling evil and rewarding the good.” From this statement my other responses follow. Why is controlling evil coercive? Is it unloving to be coercive? Which is more loving? To allow a child predator the uninterrupted freedom to prey on children or to protect the child? Why is it coercive to protect the child? Why do these discussions always end up with freedom landing squarely in favor of evil doers having the uninterrupted freedom to do evil.

  37. Fr. Stephen Avatar

    Simon,
    “Is it unloving to be coercive?” It depends on what we mean by “love.” It’s just like the problem of “what do we mean by God?” Which puts us back to every earlier discussion. What I have offered is the answer of Christ Crucified. That the love of God is revealed in Christ crucified.

    What I have concluded from that are, for what it’s worth, speculations – what does it mean if Christ crucified is the content of love? What does it mean if God is non-coercive in His power?

    What you’re asking, not being argumentative, is “Why wouldn’t it make more sense or be better in general if God were like the philosopher’s God rather than Christ crucified?”

    Not sure I can answer that in a manner that is more satisfactory or unsatisfactory than what I’ve offered.

    As to the last question: Perhaps it comes back to evil doers having the uninterrupted freedom to do evil because uninterrupted freedom itself has the character of evil. It is freedom that is unmoored. Chesterton described modernity as “virtue run wild.”

  38. Simon Avatar
    Simon

    “Why wouldn’t it make more sense or be better in general if God were like the philosopher’s God rather than Christ crucified?”

    The idea of a philosopher’s God is too much of an abstraction. What does it mean? I am asking that if God is a father that loves his children then why doesn’t God act like a father that loves his children? My questions are trying to direct as much of this discussion towards my children as possible. What does this teach me about being a good father? That is the single question through which all other questions are understood. It is a very concrete and very visceral lens through which to look at the world. What I hear you saying is that because God is not a philosopher’s God, then when it comes time for my child to be protected, then if I can’t provide it, God isn’t going to provide it either. That’s okay. I just have to readjust my expectations.

  39. Fr. Stephen Avatar

    Simon,
    I saw an interview with the economist Milton Friedman (libertarian, free-markets, etc.) the other day from back in the 80’s. The interviewer was discussing government cuts. He framed one question as, “Suppose you could be a dictator for one day, what would you cut?” And Friedman said, “I don’t want to be a dictator. I hate dictators. I want to change things by persuading people… If they don’t want to do it… then I wouldn’t want to make them.”

    I was struck by that. Here’s someone who would refuse to “use his power for good.” Christ turns down such an offer – given to Him by the devil (“all the Kingdoms of this world”).

  40. Fr. Stephen Avatar

    Simon,
    I’m a father of five. One of the five I’ve buried. I’ve also buried a grandchild. I hope not to bury any others. But I understand the world I live in. I pray for their safety and health – and I protect them within the limits of my abilities. But I also know that my children will suffer (I’ve seen the grief of a child holding a lifeless child). But I’ve also seen my children come to know the Crucified Christ and to find in Him both strength and the ability to recover and to continue to love.

    The question that seems missing in your thoughts about your children (all of which seem to be how to protect them from dangers and suffering) is “what kind of people are they going to be?” That’s a much harder question – one that makes our own abilities seem very “iffy.” But it’s more to the point. How do we best love them? What does “protection” mean in its fullest sense?

    I trusted the Crucified Christ with my son who died – and I trust Him still. I can say the same about my granddaughter who died. The stone on her grave, beneath her name and dates reads: “Glory to God for all things.” Those were requested by my son, who had long before stood by me (when he was only six) as I buried his brother just a few feet away from where he buried his daughter. I think I protected him well – by placing myself and him (as a child) in the bosom of the Crucified Christ.

    I will see them all again. In the meantime, my concern for the character of my children has been the greatest challange of all – because we have so little control. I could not do it without the reality of the Crucified Christ and His abiding presence with me and in them.

    Perhaps this is too personal in my sharing – but I don’t know how else to speak about it without passing into abstractions.

  41. Matthew Avatar
    Matthew

    The Church does much to attempt to alleviate suffering in the world while at the same time teaching that suffering is part of our existence as human beings in this world.

    I have had to live with this seemingly contradictory viewpoint for a long time.

    It seems that even Jesus Christ himself said “In this world you will have tribulation/suffering, but take heart … I have overcome the world. (John 16:33)

    It also seems that many (if not most) religions and philosophies of the world teach the very opposite of all this. It seems their goal is to either deny that suffering exists at all or to attempt to alleviate suffering at all costs.

    This doesn´t seem to be the Christian way, though I wouldn´t want my son or daughter to suffer either. I don´t want to see anyone suffer. Again … a bit of a paradox considering Jesus did heal and help during his earthly ministry.

    Simon is asking fair and good questions. Thank you Simon.

  42. Alan Avatar
    Alan

    Father, thank you very much for your two most recent comments (Re Milton Friedman and your very personal accounts of losing a son and a granddaughter).

    I so love your line: “because we have so little control.” I’ve been observing for some time how much people go to great lengths to attempt to control others. It’s quite alarming to me. So I very much appreciate your comments on this topic.

  43. Fr. Stephen Avatar

    Matthew, Simon,
    It occurs to me that a Mafia boss might want to protect his children as well, and yet simply be a murderer in his efforts. The children would be safe, but also might turn out to be murderers as well. Safe is an insufficient life goal. It’s a problem with discussions in which the terms become reductionistic.

    I want my children to be whole, to be good, to be loving – to be like Christ. They’re all going to die. That is a foregone conclusion. But when their lives are done – what will they be able to say for themselves? What kind of people were they? That seems to me to be a far larger question and not reductionist.

    It also seems to emcompass a larger understanding of love than simply “protecting” them. Again, I understand the question, but it’s insufficient.

  44. Fr. Stephen Avatar

    Alan,
    I was deeply impressed by Friedman’s response – it was refreshing.

  45. Simon Avatar
    Simon

    “How do we best love them? What does “protection” mean in its fullest sense?”

    At the very least loving your child begins with doing what you can to protect your child from evil. How can a parent say “I love you and I want what’s best for you” and then allow the child suffer evil? If that happens over and over and over again and then child comes to believe that the parent doesn’t really love the child, isn’t that the parent’s fault? Didn’t the parent teach the child taught to question the parent’s care? I think so. In fact, we all think so. We all believe in our heart of hearts that any parent that loves his or her children would do their utmost to protect that child from evil?

    One of the things that I do not like about the Bible book of Job–and I am actually a big fan of Job–is that in the story Satan kills all ten of Job’s children. All of them. At the end of the story it says that “The Lord blessed the latter part of Job’s life more than the former part. He had fourteen thousand sheep, six thousand camels, a thousand yoke of oxen and a thousand donkeys. And he also had seven sons and three daughters.” Ain’t that awesome! I have heard sermons where the preacher would say that in the resurrection Job would see not only the ten he lost, but the ten he gained so that in heaven he would be surrounded by a large family of 20 children! If it really is as easy as saying “God will make it all better…after we all die and go to heaven” then what’s the point of going through all this right now?

  46. Byron Avatar
    Byron

    A wonderful discussion. Many thanks for Simon’s questions and Father’s answers.

    I only want to add something concerning Matthew’s “pushback” on the topic of cheap grace. Father has said many times on this forum that we shouldn’t despise our past. We were where we where and we did what we did (some good and some bad, natch). It is what it is. Rather look back at it with thanksgiving–both for where we traveled and for where God has brought us.

  47. Fr. Stephen Avatar

    Simon,
    Job, for me, is a book in abstract – and I don’t draw lessons about child care from it.

    I would agree that, in general, parents should protect their children from evil. It’s just that, having said that, is also not to have said enough. It’s more than just that. There are evils that are much worse than physical dangers and such. Nurturing a good heart within them is also important. Mostly, I frame my day with prayers for them and remember them constantly as the day goes on. I want my life and theirs to be “large” enough that goodness can take root and grow.

    In doing that, I find that the Crucified Christ becomes the center of everything.

  48. Simon Avatar
    Simon

    “I want my children to be whole, to be good, to be loving – to be like Christ. They’re all going to die. That is a foregone conclusion. But when their lives are done – what will they be able to say for themselves? What kind of people were they? That seems to me to be a far larger question and not reductionist.”

    This is very reductionist as it creates a false dichotomy. It’s as if you are saying that to be concerned about the the question of suffering is to be unconcerned about the children as a whole. One of a child’s basic needs is for safety. If you are going to direct attention away from the question of evil to “what will they be able to say for themselves?” I would say that it all begins with a child’s sense of safety. Is the child feel safe? You seem to be overlooking the idea that at the very least parents that claims to love their children do what they can to keep their children safe. Does the mafia boss love his kids and keep them safe. Sure. Is the mafia boss a good parent? I don’t know that. What I do know is that whether you’re a mafia boss or just some schmuck with kids if you are going to say “I am a good parent who loves his or her children” then at the very least you should be doing what you can to stand between your children and the wolves at the door. If not, then maybe the mafia boss is the better parent.

  49. Fr. Stephen Avatar

    Simon,
    I said: “I agree that parents should protect their children from evil.” No argument with that. I have simply said more than that.

  50. Michael Bauman Avatar
    Michael Bauman

    I am greatly blessed by my parish having an icon filled old style Sanctuary built in the shape of the C to Cross: horizontal and vertical as a icon of Jesus Ascended is in our 3 story done.

    Horizontally, the three bar Cross is quite evident with our Babtistry on the north end of the bottom bar.

    The Cross as worship, suffering and overcoming is inescapable. Fr. Stephen has served there—he knows.

    The Cross proclaims the Sacramental nature of our Life in Christ. The transformation of the created into the Glory of God and His Mercy.

    Once I had been blessed to give guided tours for our guests a few times, the reality of that was “read into my heart”.

  51. Simon Avatar
    Simon

    We agree then that a Father’s first responsibility is to keep his children safe and to be a good Father might require more than that, but at the very least it requires that.

  52. Simon Avatar
    Simon

    This is the substance of a conversation I had with my son not too long ago. He asked me if there was a heaven. He’s asked me questions like this before. I said I hope so. He asked if I died if I was going to heaven. I said I hope so. He asked me how do people get to heaven. I said don’t know. But, I hope that if I am the best dad I can be that there’ll be hope for me. I asked him which would you rather me do? Would you rather I work hard at being a good person or being a good dad? He immediately hugged me–I mean he leaned in hard into that hug and said ‘to be a good dad.’ I said me, too, that’s what I think.

    Those two faces are what I know. Outside of that I get frustrated real fast.

    Fr. Stephen how does what you have here about Christ crucified relate to the existence of evil? Are you indicating that a crucified God is a God whose hands are tied? Is God in some sense unable to help?

  53. Nathan Fischer Avatar
    Nathan Fischer

    I have six children, all still at home. Some of them have great struggles. At times, they hurt their siblings. At times, they make their siblings feel unsafe. I do not want my children to hurt or suffer. I do not want them to experience harm or feelings of anxiety. I love all of my children deeply. I want them to grow beyond these struggles, and I want those without these struggles to learn to love their siblings through these struggles.

    I could, of course, decide that in order to alleviate the suffering of some of them, I will lock the others away. I could take extreme measures to ensure that my children with the greatest struggles never inflict their struggles upon their siblings. This would likely increase the immediate happiness of those siblings and relieve them of some of their anxieties.

    But to do so would be to crush the spirits of my children who struggle. It would mean denying them the opportunities to grow and to learn and to become the men and women I know that they can be.

    So instead, I draw alongside them and I suffer with all of them as I try (and so often fail, but try) to patiently guide them through these struggles – both those who struggle, and those who must endure the struggles of their siblings. I suffer with my *all* of my children. But I must also, as a parent, allow *them* to suffer themselves. This is the only possible way for all of them to grow.

    How much more does our heavenly Father love *all* of His children? Every single last one of us. Both those who commit great evil, and those who exemplify His great goodness? And how much more does He want us all to grow, to become what He knows we were made for? The time we have here, we have that we might come to know our true source of Life.

    I know that this is insufficient to answer all of your objections. But I hope that analogy is of some use to framing our heavenly Father’s relationship to us, even as we, in this world, inflict so much suffering upon one another.

  54. Fr. Stephen Avatar

    Simon,
    I’m always loathe to say “unable” with regard to God. But, inasmuch as my knowledge of God is through the lens of Christ Crucified, I would note that His hands and feet are indeed “bound” by nails. I cannot begin to speculate about the metaphysics of that revelation. I remember as well that Christ said, “No one takes my life from me…I lay it down of myself.” So, what we see on the Cross is “of Him.” And, I take it to be love.

  55. Fr. Stephen Avatar

    Nathan,
    It’s a very good example, it seems to me. Solzhenitsyn said that the line dividing good and evil runs not between people but within every human heart. Only love can see any of this – and, for us, often only dimly.

  56. Janine Avatar
    Janine

    Father Stephen writes, “But, inasmuch as my knowledge of God is through the lens of Christ Crucified, I would note that His hands and feet are indeed ‘bound’ by nails”

    Father, you remind me of the icon of Christ the Bridegroom. In it His hand are bound. It is also the icon of marriage, in which we are bound in marriage to sacrifice each for the other. And perhaps we could look at it as also the sacrificial love of parenthood, even fatherhood. So that those bounds of sacrifice are bounds of love too. Again the Passion and the Cross, and through it He becomes all in all, making us community.

  57. Fr. Stephen Avatar

    Janine,
    The image of Christ the Bridegroom is quite powerful in the services of Holy Week (the Bridegroom Matins, of course). In it, the altar area becomes the “Bridal Chamber” – It is also the tomb. “Christ has come forth from the tomb like a bridegroom in procession.” The only problem with Holy Week is that it passes by so quickly – though, it is so rich that if it passed more slowly I don’t think I could bear it.

  58. Dana Ames Avatar
    Dana Ames

    Matthew, re past experiences as a Christian,

    I’ve been listening to some of the group of podcasts on Ancient Faith called “The Areopagus”. You can read about its premise at the web site. This morning I heard an episode with Fr Barnabas Powell, which was very encouraging to me. I spent a good chunk of time in the Charismatic world as a Protestant, and Fr Barnabas has some excellent insights on viewing those, and other kinds of past church experiences, from the perspective of the ancient Church, and with gratitude. If you have 90 minutes, I think it would be a good listen for you. An added bonus is listening to Fr Barnabas’ picturesque Southern speech – I do envy Southerners the lilt, and the humor 🙂

    https://www.ancientfaith.com/podcasts/areopagus/theres_powell_in_the_blood/

    Dana

  59. Matthew Avatar
    Matthew

    Christ crucified … yes … but what are we to say of his resurrection? I remember attending a Pentecostal church and a former Catholic said (I think) when she was Catholic she thought Jesus was dead because of how he is often depicted on the cross in so many Catholic churches. Christ did die, yes, but he also lives. How should we reconcile this? His hands were bound … but now he reaches out to every human being in order to save them.

  60. Michael Bauman Avatar
    Michael Bauman

    Matthew, the icon of Jesus as an ancient infant sitting on His Mother’s lap with both her and Him having their arms outstretched in welcome and blessing: “More Spacious Than the Heavens”

    The icon is over many Orthodox altars. It continues to solve many potential problems for me. Mary invites me into her heart, but I have to enter the Heart of the Incarnate, Crucified, Risen, Transfigured and Ascended man-child sitting on her lap in perfect peace and righteousness and glory.

  61. Matthew Avatar
    Matthew

    Thanks so much for thinking of me Dana.

    I attempted to listen to the podcast early this morning, but there was a very long introduction and it was not possible for me to fast forward to the main points.

    Can you briefly tell me the main points? They would probably benefit others here as well … not simply me.

  62. Fr. Stephen Avatar

    Matthew,
    “Christ Crucified” is speaking of the matter in the words of St. Paul. The resurrection manifests the reconciliation made complete (“it is finished”) on the Cross. Nevertheless, even in the resurrection, He bears the wounds of the Cross. He reaches out to every human being (as He did to Thomas). That encounter makes it clear that the Cross is not something that disappears in the resurrection but is eternally manifest.

    It is both.

  63. Ben Avatar
    Ben

    Thank you, Father! For this article, and your replies in the discussions. I’m taking to heart your remark “Mostly, I frame my day with prayers for them [your children] and remember them constantly as the day goes on. I want my life and theirs to be “large” enough that goodness can take root and grow.”

    As a beginner on the Christian (Orthodox) Way, Christ Crucified is a great mystery to me. I’ve read a few different Orthodox writings about it, but my understanding remains quite superficial. It would not stand up to (well intentioned) scrutiny.

    I feel that the meaning of this great mystery goes beyond reason, but still, for a real Christian, should be at the core of his/her existence. How do I open up my heart to this mystery?

  64. Matthew Avatar
    Matthew

    Hello Ben. What is a “real Christian” in your view?

  65. Fr. Stephen Avatar

    Ben,
    I think you’re very much on point regarding the Cross. Be patient with it – the best understanding is the one that God gives to us (where He uses a spoon rather than a firehose!). But, I would recommend listening to Fr. Thomas Hopko’s The Word of the Cross. I think it’s in 3 parts on Ancient Faith.

  66. Michael Bauman Avatar
    Michael Bauman

    Father, you pray well in your question. May our Lord open your heart, soul and mind to His mystery.

  67. Ben Avatar
    Ben

    Father, thank you for the metaphor of the spoon and the firehose! 🙂 (I’ve come across the eating of words/scrolls (Wisdom, Truth?) in a few places in Scripture already. I don’t know why, but it really speaks to me.)

    I’m looking forward to listening to Fr. Thomas Hopko’s podcast some time soon, thank you!

  68. Matthew Avatar
    Matthew

    Thanks so much Fr. Stephen.

    In my older world, it seemed that there was a fiery battle over the cross and the resurrection with some tightly holding onto one or the other. Also, I must
    admit that my understanding of the cross has developed over the years.
    As an evangelical I think my “cross understanding” was both narrow and gruesome.

    In terms of the resurrection … might it be that the reason Jesus bears his scars even after the resurrection is to prove that he wasn´t some sort of spiritual apparition?

    Hello too Michael. Thanks as always for your thoughts.

  69. Nathan Fischer Avatar
    Nathan Fischer

    > the best understanding is the one that God gives to us (where He uses a spoon rather than a firehose!)

    Oh my goodness, Father, that’s great. Thank you for that! I think it has taken me many, many years of attempting to drink from the firehose to begin to understand this.

  70. Fr. Stephen Avatar

    Matthew,
    Of course the wounds of Christ demonstrate that He is not a phantom, and, I suspect that for some, that’s all they see in them. The Church has seen much more than that. One of my favorite meditations comes on Thomas Sunday (first Sunday after Pascha) when it speaks of St. Thomas “thrusting his hand into the fiery side of Christ” – which goes much further than the gospel text. With St. Thomas, we are invited to plunge ourselves into the fiery mystery of His wounds as well.

  71. Ben Avatar
    Ben

    Matthew,

    Take this with a large grain of salt… I think that a real Christian strives to uphold Christ’s commandments, and keeps Christ in mind in doing good work(s) – any work really. Doing the impossible, so to say, and repenting whenever he/she fails.

  72. Matthew Avatar
    Matthew

    Thanks so much Ben.

  73. Matthew Avatar
    Matthew

    What can Christ´s wounds teach us Fr. Stephen?

  74. Nathan Fischer Avatar
    Nathan Fischer

    Matthew, not speaking for Father, but I just recently reread this article, and I think it expands on the wounds of Christ: https://glory2godforallthings.com/2022/04/01/gods-tattoos

  75. Matthew Avatar
    Matthew

    Thanks so much Nathan!

  76. Fr. Stephen Avatar

    Matthew,
    Nathan’s suggestion was good – I enjoyed re-reading it myself! I think that one of the things we learn in the wounds of Christ is the “destiny” of our own wounds. Their pain and torment – so much of which we would like to erase or hide – is transformed into glory. This is the sort of thing that is nearly impossible for me to imagine – though I’ve had a small glimpse of it from time to time. Our suffering will not be wasted – but glorified.

    It has a power, I think, to heal much of the self-loathing that we experience, to say the least. My body and mind groan for such a transformation. And all of creation said, “Amen.”

  77. Matthew Avatar
    Matthew

    Thanks again Fr. Stephen.

    It is a beautiful thing to ponder our sufferings being transformed into glory. That said, I have done a lot of work over the years not so much to hide, but rather to heal the psychological suffering I have been through.

    Might my efforts be a taste of this glorification of which you speak?

  78. Matthew Avatar
    Matthew

    I think you mentioned in an earlier comment, Fr. Stephen, that it is Christ crucified which drives you to help others in need; to help alleviate suffering in the lives of people you have ministered to.

    Can you flesh that out a bit?

  79. Fr. Stephen Avatar

    Matthew,
    Christ directs us to the sick, the naked, the hungry, etc., and speaks of His presence in them (not just some political “identification”). When I encounter suffering of any sort – whether self-inflicted or other-inflicted – I assume that I am encountering Christ Crucified – and it is for me a place to serve Him, to bind up wounds, to “weep with those who weep,” etc.

    In my own life, I have seen some very deep wounds becomes sources of “glory” (even though very muted). My book on shame, for example, would have been sterile and impotent had it not been born of my own experience. It’s why it took the better part of 10 years to write, with at least 5 manuscripts tossed in the trash.

  80. Matthew Avatar
    Matthew

    I cannot thank you enough Fr. Stephen.

    🙂

  81. Margaret Avatar
    Margaret

    Dear Fr. Stephen, Thank you from the bottom of my heart for your comment here above and I have repeated here as follows: “I think that one of the things we learn in the wounds of Christ is the “destiny” of our own wounds. Their pain and torment – so much of which we would like to erase or hide – is transformed into glory. This is the sort of thing that is nearly impossible for me to imagine – though I’ve had a small glimpse of it from time to time. Our suffering will not be wasted – but glorified.

    It has a power, I think, to heal much of the self-loathing that we experience, to say the least. My body and mind groan for such a transformation. And all of creation said, “Amen.” — end quote

    I truly needed this reminder, to see in print. God is so good! Glory to God for ALL Things!

  82. Janine Avatar
    Janine

    Father, thanks for the link to the Fr Hopko on The Word of the Cross

  83. Dana Ames Avatar
    Dana Ames

    Matthew, I have the AFR app; don’t know if that makes a difference, but I’ve been able to fast-forward and reverse by listening to the podcasts by going through the ” all podcasters” menu to Fr Andrew Stephen Damick, and from there to the tile for The Areopagus, and from there down through the list until I get to the one I want to hear. Once I turn it on, I can send the dot farther through the recording, sort of like YouTube.

    The difficulty about summarizing is that it is a conversation, and there is a flow of ideas. The whole thing, I guess, could be characterized by why we can be grateful for all the experiences of Christ we have had in our lives. Fr Barnabas focuses on Orthodoxy, but I think any serious Christian could benefit from it. I hope you’re able to hear the meat of the thing. Sorry I can’t help more.

    Dana

  84. Matthew Avatar
    Matthew

    Thanks Dana.

  85. Leah Avatar
    Leah

    The problem that I grapple with is that, for me, in my experience as a parent (and also as the child I once was), love can and should indeed sometimes be coercive. No good earthly father would let his toddler run out into traffic, so as not to be coercive. No good earthly father would stand by and let his teenager harm a younger sibling in a disagreement, so as not to be coercive. It’s hard for me to understand that our Father in heaven should be so different from an ideal earthly father.

  86. Fr. Stephen Avatar

    Leah,
    I am a parent of four children (all adults now). And, no doubt, I engaged in some measure of “coercion” as a parent – though there is often a line between coercion and simple discipline. Indeed, in Hebrews, it says: “because the Lord disciplines the one he loves, and he chastens everyone he accepts as his son.”(12:6) I’m not a stranger to “chastening” from God – at least as it is understood in our piety. But, what chastening occurs is, if you will, by mutual agreement (none of us are coerced into entering the faith – at least we can always walk away).

    But, that said, at least in my use of the word “coerce” – I have in mind refusing to acknolwedge or respect someone’s freedom. For the sake of a child’s safety, we act on their behalf (as parents, etc.). And, as they grow up, we wrestle as parents to discern at what point their freedom must be allowed to have its way. Sometimes the most frightening thing in life is the increasing freedom of our children – or the freedom of any that we love.

  87. Michael Bauman Avatar
    Michael Bauman

    Father, can a sinful passion be overcome by Christ allowing a certain non-sinful suffering into one’s life such as physical pain: a greatly muted experience of The Cross?

  88. Owen Kelly Avatar
    Owen Kelly

    In my understanding, true freedom is the freedom not to sin, not the freedom to choose, equally, between good and evil. Our evil desires and their corresponding actions are never free. Sin is bondage. Pure freedom is identical to perfect purity from sin – to be like God and always choose His will. Indeed, I believe the choice for anything else disappears when we become completely free.

    John 8:32 “And ye shall know the truth and the truth shall make you free.”

  89. Owen Kelly Avatar
    Owen Kelly

    One thought more on freedom: it’s a state of liberation which certainly includes, and may even consist in, freedom from coercion by evil influences. I don’t think a truly good influence acts coercively. Freedom is liberation from any evil influence unto the good. That is, when the chains fall off, we instinctively move towards the true end of our nature, the Good. In this sense, God cannot coerce anyone. For God is our telos – the final reason for our being. The ultimate goal of a nature is by definition non-coercive; the oak tree does not and cannot coerce the acorn.

    To my mind, God doesn’t have to coerce anyone. He only need break our chains, and we will fly to Him.

  90. Michael Bauman Avatar
    Michael Bauman

    Owen, the Evil One can and does throw his chains at us, hoping to put us back into bondage. These chains can even be in our physical body to some degree. So, persistence in Grace and Repentance is required.

  91. Fr. Stephen Avatar

    Michael,
    Yes – to some degree.

  92. Fr. Stephen Avatar

    Owen,
    True freedom is the ability to act in accord with our nature, our telos. In that sense, it is freedom to be who/what we truly are. Sin is a bondage that prevents us from doing that. But that true freedom is also not a slavery to our nature (or should not be conceived in that way).

  93. Owen Kelly Avatar
    Owen Kelly

    Fr. Stephen,
    It’s interesting how St. Paul uses the terms of slavery to describe our relationship to both sin as well as righteousness in Christ (Rom 6). Should we assume the latter indicates true freedom in the Christian sense?

  94. Fr. Stephen Avatar

    Owen,
    Indeed. There is this prayer of St. Augustine that picks up that idea:
    Prayer of Saint Augustine: “Lord, you are the light of the minds who know you, the life of the souls who love you, and the strength of the souls who serve you. Help us to know you that we may truly love you, so to love you that we may fully serve you, whose service is perfect freedom. Through Christ our Lord. Amen”.

  95. Janine Avatar
    Janine

    In thinking more about this conversation we’ve had, would like to suggest the possibility that Christ bears His wounds into heaven as they are explicitly gained in the process of serving/manifesting the Kingdom. They aren’t just scars from a childhood accident or something. The same as we say that martyrs wear crowns, for their death is gained in some process of serving the Kingdom. It’s not as if all deaths are such. I would venture to say that it is in living faith, responding (if you will) to the prompting of the Spirit, that incurring suffering becomes glorified. Perhaps this also happens when we repent in such a way that we come to our faith through any suffering, and we see it redeemed in that it brings us the joy of the Lord (for want of a better way to phrase things)

  96. Fr. Stephen Avatar

    Janine,
    I think we should think quite broadly about the wounds that are gathered into Christ, perhaps even universally. In Matt. 25, where Christ radically declares His communion with the sick, the naked, the hungry, etc., an identification that St. Maximus the Confessor describes as lasting until the end of the ages, we do not see Him simply identifying with martyrs. This is Christ’s action – our cooperation with that (on some level) – clearly aids in that participation. But there is a movement towards the “ingathering” described in Ephesians that hints at something wonderfully beyond our imagination (this also includes the “groaning” of a suffering creation as well).

  97. Janine Avatar
    Janine

    Thanks, Father. But don’t you think faith has something to do with it? I mean, we don’t know who will come to faith, and it’s at least possible that it (salvation) will be universal. But shouldn’t faith be a factor in some way? I’m not trying to be funny or argumentative. Just trying to reconcile with Scripture or the gospel of the Kingdom. I appreciate that you will have insights / resources I don’t.

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