The Useless God

The statement, “God is useless,” is, undoubtedly, sure to strike someone as an insult, not a statement of a faithful believing Christian (much less, a priest). That reaction tells me much about how we feel about the word, “useless,” rather than how we feel about God. In current American parlance, “useless,” is mostly a term of abuse. Who wants to be seen as useless?

Consider this excerpt from a letter of the author and playwriter, Oscar Wilde:

A work of art is useless as a flower is useless. A flower blossoms for its own joy. We gain a moment of joy by looking at it. That is all that is to be said about our relations to flowers. Of course man may sell the flower, and so make it useful to him, but this has nothing to do with the flower. It is not part of its essence. It is accidental. It is a misuse. All this is I fear very obscure. But the subject is a long one.

That the absence of utility is a term of abuse is a profound comment on our time. Stressed, anxious, and sick from the fatigue of life, we find ourselves required to give justification for our leisure. I am “charging my batteries,” we say, giving work the ultimate priority. We only rest in order to work harder.

There are many useless things that mark our lives: beauty, rest, joy. Indeed, it would seem that many of the things that we value most are, for the greater part, quite useless. What is it, to be useful?

The useful thing (or person) gains its value from something other than itself. It is a tool. I value the tool because it allows me to do something else. In many cases, when the usefulness of the tool is expired, it is simply thrown away. In a throw-away society we slowly drown in a sea of obsolescence, surrounded by things for which we no longer have any use.

From a National Geographic article:

Imagine 15 grocery bags filled with plastic trash piled up on every single yard of shoreline in the world. That’s how much land-based plastic trash ended up in the world’s oceans in just one year. The world generates at least 3.5 million tons of plastic and other solid waste a day…. The U.S. is the king of trash, producing a world-leading 250 million tons a year—roughly 4.4 pounds of trash per person per day.

Our sea of trash is a testament to the ethic of utility.

“You only want to use me.” This statement, on the lips of a lover or a friend, is a fearful indictment. We want to be loved for ourselves, not for what we can do, much less as an end to something else. We want to be loved as useless beings.

It is worth noting that among God’s first commandments is one of uselessness:

Six days you shall labor, and do all your work, but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, you, or your son, or your daughter, your male servant, or your female servant, or your livestock, or the sojourner who is within your gates. For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day. Therefore, the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.

The one day out of the seven that is described as “holy” is the day on which we are commanded to be useless. It is, in Christian terms, part of God’s work within us to make us like Himself – forming and shaping us into the image of Christ.

Utility – usefulness – is a strong value within the world of modernity – that philosophical, cultural agglomeration that came about a little over 200 years ago. Inventing better ploughs and threshing machines, figuring out ways to make everything faster, cheaper, and “better,” indeed, making things that no one had ever dreamed of, is an outstanding way to grow an economy. If you couple it with global trade, the standard of living increases, and some people get quite rich.

An aside: the genius of modernity was not its love for technology, or even for what technology can do. Modernity has become super-proficient in technology simply because it learned how to make it profitable. We do not make better phones because we need better phones: we make them so we can sell them. A large amount of medical research goes into finding ways to extend patents rather than curing diseases. Modernity is not the age of technology: it is the age of profit.

If you do this sort of thing for a good number of decades, and couple it with newly-coined ideas of human individuality and freedom, you can, before long, begin to think that you’re building better humans along with better ploughs, threshing machines and iPhones. Of course, many of the humans endure difficult times as they experience a nagging sense of uselessness that will not seem to go away.

The uselessness bound up with the Sabbath Day had a much deeper meaning as well as a more far-reaching application. The Sabbath Day itself was but a token of an entire way of life. Strangely, uselessness was deeply bound up with the question of justice, and, in a manner of speaking, becomes the foundation for understanding the Kingdom of God itself.

The Sabbath Day of ancient Israel was only a small part of a larger understanding of time and the stewardship of creation. One day in the week was set aside and no work was to be done. One year out of each seven was also to be set aside, and no work in the fields was to be done for the entire year – the land was to lie fallow – unplowed. After seven seven-year cycles, a fiftieth year was to be set aside.

Each seventh year, not only did the land lie fallow, but all debts (except those of foreigners) were to be cancelled. In the fiftieth year, these same things apply, but the land reverted to its original ownership. This fiftieth year began on the Day of Atonement and was known as the “Jubilee Year.”

In the preaching of the prophets, particularly Isaiah, this image of the management of debts and the land is given a cosmic interpretation in addition to its place in the annual cycle of Israel. The Jubilee Year becomes the “Acceptable Year of the Lord,” a coming day when the whole of creation will be set free – a coming Jubilee for everyone and everything.

When Jesus stands to read the Scriptures in the synagogue in Nazareth, he reads from the scroll of Isaiah. It is the passage which speaks of this coming cosmic act of remittance and freedom:

“And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up. And as was his custom, he went to the synagogue on the Sabbath day, and he stood up to read. And the scroll of the prophet Isaiah was given to him. He unrolled the scroll and found the place where it was written, “The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he has anointed me to proclaim good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim liberty to the captives and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty those who are oppressed, to proclaim the year of the Lord’s favor.”

And he rolled up the scroll and gave it back to the attendant and sat down. And the eyes of all in the synagogue were fixed on him. And he began to say to them, “Today this Scripture has been fulfilled in your hearing.” (Luke 4:16–21)

This passage from Isaiah is chosen by Christ to describe what He is about to do. He will preach saying, “The Kingdom of God is at hand.” This Scripture describes what that looks like. The poor hear good news, captives are set free; the blind receive their sight; the oppressed are given liberty – there is a cosmic loosing that happens day by day in His ministry. Indeed, it is not for nothing that He seems to prefer the Sabbath Day above all others for doing this work. He is revealing the true meaning and purpose of the Sabbath.

And this will bring me back to uselessness.

Today, we would look at land lying fallow for a year as a primitive substitute for “crop rotation,” a useful way of promoting responsible agriculture. This is not its actual purpose. It is a deliberate interruption of the cycle of productivity, and the maximizing of profit. It says, “No. There’s something more important.”

The Law within ancient Israel was not an entirely unknown Mideastern practice. Other kingdoms in the area practiced an occasional forgiveness of debt, primarily to secure the position of a ruler. Israel seems to be the first instance in which the forgiveness of debt and the practice of Sabbatarian rest – for people, land, and animals, came to be written into the very fabric of life and given divine sanction. And, even in the non-Sabbath years, there was a prohibition against harvesting an entire field. A portion had to be left standing so that the poor could “glean” the fields for their needs. Maximum efficiency was forbidden. This way of life was not an effort to solidify earthly power, but to undermine it with a radical understanding of the purpose of human existence.

There was nothing new in Christ’s attitude towards the poor and the oppressed. What was new was His willingness to practice it without pulling a punch and His extension of its principles towards everything and everyone.

He drew the imagery of debt and its abolition (with extreme examples) into His teaching on the Kingdom of God itself. What we learn is that this Law of uselessness – the refusal to maximize our own power and efficiency – goes to the very heart of what it means to exist in the image and likeness of God.

That we are loved in our uselessness points to the fact that we are loved for ourselves. We have value and worth in and of ourselves regardless of what we might do. The proclamation of the Kingdom of God is the declaration of what God Himself values.

“…Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow: they neither toil nor spin;and yet I say to you that even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these. Now if God so clothes the grass of the field, which today is, and tomorrow is thrown into the oven, will He not much more clothe you, O you of little faith?(Matt 6:28–30)

The lilies are useless, doing no work, neither toiling nor spinning. And yet, they are clothed. Our work ethic has become a cultural ethic. We take vacations so that we can return as better workers. Few things are done for their own sake. Why would God set aside so much time for uselessness? Apparently, when life becomes driven by utility, we neglect and ignore the things that have the most value and are all too easily deemed useless.

The Prophet Amos made this observation:

“Hear this, you who trample on the needy and bring the poor of the land to an end, saying, “When will the new moon be over, that we may sell grain? And the Sabbath, that we may offer wheat for sale, that we may make the ephah small and the shekel great and deal deceitfully with false balances, that we may buy the poor for silver and the needy for a pair of shoes and sell the chaff of the wheat?” Amos 8:4-6

Very little has changed, it seems. We fail to honor the useless God, and in doing so, have forgotten how and why we live.

_______________

Revised from an earlier version. The photo is of the author in a state of jubilant uselessness.

 

About Fr. Stephen Freeman

Fr. Stephen is a priest of the Orthodox Church in America, Pastor Emeritus of St. Anne Orthodox Church in Oak Ridge, Tennessee. He is also author of Everywhere Present and the Glory to God podcast series.



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283 responses to “The Useless God”

  1. Dee of St Herman Avatar
    Dee of St Herman

    Also, to other commenters coming from Protestantism into Orthodoxy,
    I appreciate your comments here, Byron, Mark, and Matthew, who have revealed your struggles entering the Church. I knew of Protestants’ difficulties superficially, but I gained a much greater understanding from your respective accounts of your lives. Such contexts are illuminating. I am grateful to the grace of God to give you the strength to keep going!

  2. Alan Avatar
    Alan

    Michelle, thank you for your comments. I like your description: “Protestant-Orthodox-American.” The truth of that made me chuckle. As one who is cautiously pessimistic, I fear the situation will get worse, before it gets better.
    Thanks again.

  3. Eliza Avatar
    Eliza

    Thanks, Mark! I will look at that.

  4. Dana Ames Avatar
    Dana Ames

    Matthew et al,

    The thing that began (and I stress “began”) my understanding of how the Orthodox Church approaches the interpretation of Scripture was sitting through the Vigil for the Dormition of the Mother of God. I was listening very intently to the hymns and Scripture readings, because one of the things that was an issue for me was the Orthodox understanding of Mary the Theotokos. Not only because I had spent +30 years as an Evangelical, but also because I was raised Catholic, I was carrying around some baggage regarding the Theotokos, and I really wanted to be able to set that aside and truly understand. A friend advised that I ask her to help me know her, so I did pray that prayer.

    One of the readings in the Vigil was about how David sent the Ark of the Covenant traveling around the hill country of Judah. The next thing I knew, the Gospel was being read, from Luke, where Mary “arose and went with haste into the hill country, to a city in Judah…” Well, the juxtaposition of the two readings took my breath away, and I *saw* how the Church proclaims that Mary is the True Ark of the Covenant. Yes, historically David probably sent that wooden box around the countryside; that was a “fact” that was recorded in the text we have, no argument with it. But at the same time, that action pointed to, had its deepest meaning as, the indication of this woman as the one whose womb contained God. That was the beginning of the end of my “Mary problem”. I began attending Orthodox Liturgy regularly the following October, and was made a catechumen the following February.

    More has been unfolding since that time 15 years ago; there’s always something else, something deeper to see in the liturgical hymns that explains and interprets Scripture. One of the things that struck me at the Vesperal Liturgy for Theophany was both of the hymns sung after the OT readings. One has the refrain: “Thou, the Creator of the world, hast shone forth in the world, to give light to those who sit in darkness. O God Who lovest man, glory to Thee!” The other: “Where should Thy light shine but on those who sit in darkness? O our Savior, glory to Thee!” What other commentary is there on Jesus’ proclamation of himself as the Light of the world, and echoing all of the OT verses about God as light? And everything in the NT about Christ’s love for us… Another moment of gobsmacked-ness…

    Anyhow, that might help explain how the Tradition “works” with Scripture.

    Dana

  5. Dee of St Herman Avatar
    Dee of St Herman

    Wonderful and edifying thoughts and revelation, Dana! Thanks so much for sharing your insights!

  6. Matthew Avatar
    Matthew

    Good morning, or very early morning, or evening, or whatever to everyone! 🙂

    This conversation has been absolutely fascinating and extremely helpful. I want to once again express my deepest thanks for all the contributions. It takes time and effort and patience to formulate these comments/responses (I know) to help this wayward Protestant on his way to Orthodoxy! Be blessed all of you.

    Fr. Stephen: What a missionary effort you all must have in front of you! The American religious landscape is very different than it is here in Western Europe and within Orthodoxy here in Germany there seems to be very little effort or interest to reach out to the non-Orthodox. Orthodoxy here, by and large, remains an ethnic religious enclave that is very mysterious and largely misunderstood. 🙁

    Dana: I have had big problems with the Theotokos as she is understood and taught about in the Orthodox Church. That said, the section about the Mother of God in the book “The Melody of Faith” was extremely helpful for me. I remember when I first entered the Greek Orthodox Church and I saw a huge image of the Theotokos over the altar. I immediately thought … shouldn´t that spot be reserved for Christ alone? I am more comfortable with the image now as I continue to learn about the Theotokos` relationship to Jesus Christ and the important role she played in bringing Christ into the world. In terms of Scripture being heard in the Divine Liturgy … this is a challenge for me because where I am the Greek Orthodox Church uses a mixture of half Greek/half German in the Divine Liturgy. It´s all I can do to keep up! I just stand there and meditate, pray, and think. Often my thoughts wander as I listen to the chanting. It has also been difficult to simply hear chanting because it sounds very harsh to my ears … but I am beginning to warm up to everything!

  7. Matthew Avatar
    Matthew

    Fr. Stephen … can you share where the opening photo was taken? The landscape to me looks almost desert-like!

  8. Shawn Avatar
    Shawn

    Thanks Dana for the examples. I’ll admit that Mary is pretty much a foreign concept to me, however, I am beginning to see where the orthodox reverence for her comes from. I also am fascinated by the orthodox use of the scriptures and appreciate everyone’s willingness to share and patiently teach one such as me.

  9. Fr. Stephen Avatar

    The opening photo was taken about 15+ years ago along the bank of the Virgin River in Zion National Park (Utah). I was on a vacation with my wife.

  10. Fr. Stephen Avatar

    Dana,
    Excellent examples and wonderful stories. It illustrates that you were “reading” the text in its proper context – worship. Orthodox doctrine of any sort is never just information – it is a revealing of what is – presented to the whole person as we stand in its presence.

  11. CJM Avatar
    CJM

    A bit delayed, but thank you Father Stephen and Mark for your thoughts ref consumption and gratitude a few days back.

  12. Drewster2000 Avatar
    Drewster2000

    I appreciated Fr. Stephen’s response to Owen concerning the usefulness of prayer. As Owen summarized, prayer is simply communion with God. You would probably look at someone funny if they started pondering the usefulness of spending time with their spouse.

    It’s the wrong question. We have relationships because that is essential to human beings. It’s part of who we are and how we work. Transactions are a by-product of those relationships and they are essential to our existence as well. BUT…they should always be secondary.

    If you entered marriage because of what you could get out of it, you’re already in serious danger of divorce. In fact I believe this is true of all relationships if we come down to it. If you go into the store for groceries and come out without having greeted someone, everyone involved is the poorer for it. This might sound odd because our society is in the habit of being spiritually impoverished, but it is true nonetheless.

  13. Dee of St Herman Avatar
    Dee of St Herman

    Drewster,
    Drawing on the analogy of dating, engagement, and marriage, and indeed, as you say, reflecting on “user mentality” and marriage is helpful to understand the distinction in life in Christ from such thoughts as ‘what do I get out of going to church?’

  14. Dee of St Herman Avatar
    Dee of St Herman

    Matthew,
    Since I haven’t gone to an Orthodox Church in Germany, I wouldn’t know for sure what you’re experiencing. However, I do go to a Greek Orthodox Church in my community. Greek and English are the dominant languages. I happen to love learning Greek and saying the prayers in Greek. I suppose some do not and look elsewhere.

    Aspects of the Liturgy may differ from jurisdiction to jurisdiction in the US. Among them is how the Liturgy is chanted and how melodious it may sound to Western ears. Another advantage (especially to Western ears) in my parish is the beautiful voices of those who chant. However, I have also heard chant using a monotone and lifting up at the end of the chant. I find such chanting beautiful, too and allows a keen focus on the words chanted.

    One feature I particularly love is the eison.

    Before I entered an Orthodox Church I used to listen to Orthodox Chant. On YouTube there is a video: “Icons of Sound: Cappella Romana in a virtual Hagia Sophia – Cherubic Hymn in Mode 1” I used to listen to it quite often.

    However there is also a “Russian” style Chant. Another video you could listen to on YouTube is, “Chants from Valaam” from the album, “Valaam Monastery Choir”. The words are in Russian. I enjoy listening to this too. I’ve listened to recordings of some English versions of the Liturgy, but for some reason I haven’t been drawn to listening to those recordings. I could be because I prefer listening to them in person.

    If you have a prayer book with the Divine Liturgy in English, I would encourage you to study it so that you might have a sense of the worship structure. There are places in the Liturgy that change each day the Liturgy is chanted. Some places remain constant and some places change depending on the Orthodox Church calendar.

  15. Mark Spurlock Avatar
    Mark Spurlock

    Drewster,

    “If you go into the store for groceries and come out without having greeted someone, everyone involved is the poorer for it. This might sound odd because our society is in the habit of being spiritually impoverished, but it is true nonetheless.”

    Yes, Drewster, that’s a great example of the post’s point about usefulness and its tyranny when divorced from the spiritual. Gallup did a poll back in August that “proved” those who greet their neighbors have a “well-being score” higher than those who don’t.

    Greet your neighbors to increase your well-being–it’s scientific!–not because you want to greet them for some less tangible reason that can’t be quantified. The kicker: Gallup found that greeting more up to six people a day improved the score, but no further improvement accrued to going beyond six.

    If scientific optimization is to guide every human behavior, AI might as well replace us.

  16. Margaret Avatar
    Margaret

    Dear Fr. Stephen, please forgive me if you do not want Ancient Faith Radio linked, but as Michelle mentioned streaming as a possibility in needing much and constant prayer (on January 9th in comments) my husband and I have been enjoying streaming Ancient Faith music at various time during our days at home. I find it very comforting when my hands are occupied with household chores. https://www.ancientfaith.com/radio
    Also our church St. Ignatius in Franklin streams its services on facebook — as I’m sure other parishes do also. This is a great help when Royal Hours takes place during a weekday morning when I cannot get to church.
    Also I have appreciated your advice over the years to cross myself whenever passing in front of an icon in my home and also to say the pre-communion prayers at times other than before communion.

  17. Fr. Stephen Avatar

    Margaret,
    Thanks for the link. I remain a strong supporter of Ancient Faith Radio and continue to create podcasts for them. Indeed, we’re talking about doing some Youtube videos in the future for AFR.

    It is a wonderful resource.

  18. Dee of St Herman Avatar
    Dee of St Herman

    Matthew,
    I also found a video chanting in English but using the “Valaam” (Russian) melody:
    Valaam orthodox chant – Lord of hosts (EN)

    I listened to it briefly. I find I have to focus to discern the words clearly.

  19. Michelle Avatar
    Michelle

    Just popping in to say that we should be very cautious when adopting new technologies within the Church — obviously literacy has had its effect — including photography, live streaming, online teaching, etc.

    There is a way to write an icon — an aesthetic should be agreed upon to properly “document” services through photos (for instance, it’s strange when 200 people participate in a worship service but only photographs of the bishop or priests are produced; what theology does this reflect?)

    Live streaming prayer — I asked for this myself, but also know that God does this anyway, that if we are purified we can sense others’ prayers for us, our communion with the saints — Who am I to force it? There must be a proper way to go about it, a way that is carefully considered.

    Online teaching — If holy people were all made priests, then women would also be made priests. This isn’t the case, so priesthood doesn’t mean the elevation of holy people. If priests are given extra holiness, then everyone would be made a priest, to make sure that everyone can be “extra saved.” This is also definitely not the case. I think, then, that the grace of the Priesthood is the wiggle room we give them, and how we pray for them and support them, and look to them for guidance. We show our immense respect for our Priests because we know that they accept full responsibility for their words and actions and how those influence us before God. Such danger! Such a tremendous burden! (And forgive me for writing here so boldly myself!) How can we properly shape our understanding of the role of the Priest as laymen and as clergy before we engage in such a thing as “distance learning”? What priest could possibly accept the enormous responsibility of being a YouTube personality before God? — I shudder at the idea!

    I think these are the relevant questions to American Orthodoxy. Solving them, and sort of setting aside the other questions for now, might move us away from our beloved parents’ Protestantism, which I think, we should also deeply respect.

    I’m also deeply in favor of Americans attending services in a foreign language indefinitely. It quiets the mind and opens the heart.

    thank you for allowing my opinions, all subject to revision and growth

  20. Fr. Stephen Avatar

    Michelle,
    First off, we are making mistakes and we will continue to make mistakes – for this is a hallmark of Church history. This is something we should settle in our hearts. It is the Providence of God and His grace that works in us, despite our mistakes, and sometimes uses our mistakes for our good (because He is a good God). I think we are fumbling our way forward in our present context – too much of this, not enough of that. And so it goes.

    I have felt that it was/is important to have the blessing of your bishop for a priest to undertake any sort of ministry (such as blogging, youtubing, etc.). Indeed, AFR in its guidelines is now requesting such blessings. We must be accountable to one another.

    At the same time, we should not over-react. I’m firmly in support of English as the language of worship in the American Church. It is foreign to the historic understanding of Orthodox mission to do otherwise. It is the phenomenon of a “diaspora” that has changed this primitive principle…which is not at all the same thing as a missionary work. But, I appreciate the various arguments regarding all of this (I’ve heard them all). I have, however, told our foreign-language members in my parish that there is simply no future for their children and grandchildren in America that is not English-speaking (or Spanish, perhaps).

    I’m trying to fathom the notion that listening to a service in a language you don’t understand quiets the mind and opens the heart. That might be so in some individuals – but that is not the purpose of language – which is itself a gift of the Logos. On the other hand, we Americans tend to be monolingual and almost arrogant about it, so it does us some good to sometimes have to be patient for a translation. Nonetheless, I bless the memory of Sts. Cyril and Methodios, St. Innocent and Jacob of Alaska, and all the translators of the faith through the ages.

    Be patient and pray and bear the shame that we must as the Church endures its growth. One need only read the Book of Acts to see that this has ever been a trial.

  21. Eliza Avatar
    Eliza

    I do so appreciate the comments concerning Mary/Theotokos. Dana, very enlightening insights.

    Yet another missing dimension in my Protestant-influenced cult church upbringing. This is another reason I have been drawn to the Catholic and Orthodox faiths.

    As a seeker, I would wonder why there were no “She” members of the God family. God and Christ seem to be portrayed as “He.” (I have wondered about the Holy Spirit.) I could see no sense in the notion that the so-called female entity is the church – and maybe that is true, not arguing that. But, the church is not a spirit essence in the sense of God and His Son. With Mary as revealed in Orthodoxy, it begins to click for me, if I am understanding correctly.

    In all my attending and visiting various Protestant churches, I cannot remember Mary ever presented with reverence – maybe it happened and I don’t remember it. What I do recall is that she was either ignored or dismissed. Not to beat up on Protesta

  22. Fr. Stephen Avatar

    Eliza,
    There is certainly a mystery within how God makes Himself known to us. I think the modern analysis that sees a sinful “patriarchy” behind the male portrayal (“Father,” “Son,”) is utterly off-base – and is guilty of elevating our own minor cultural moment to a status above all others. But I don’t hear that in your comment or questioning. In Hebrew, Spirit (Ruach) is grammatically feminine. In Greek, (Spirit) is gramatically neuter.

    We are at a critical moment in history in which male and female have been cast as rivals and antagonists, a tragic turn of events driven both by past abuse and present delusions.

    But, the mystery is great. God give us insight.

  23. Matthew Avatar
    Matthew

    Thanks so much Dee. I will check out the Russian chant. I appreciate all the help. I want to learn modern Greek as my wife and I will be traveling to Greece in October (Skiathos Island). I of course also want to learn Greek so that I can better absorb what I am hearing in the Divine Liturgy. 🙂

  24. Matthew Avatar
    Matthew

    Hello Dee. There seems to be a Valaam Monastery in Russia and also one in the heart of Greece (Meteora). I am currently listening to the Valaam Monastery Choir on YouTube which I think is from Russia, not Greece. Nevertheless … I find the chanting beautiful. Thanks so much.

  25. Michelle Avatar
    Michelle

    Thank you for your reply, Father. I do agree that we do and will make mistakes. This means that we are alive and growing! I say this to my daughter, anyway. God help me teach her properly; thank you for teaching me. // When I entered the church it was a relief for me to be surrounded by people that could not understand my words beyond “I’m sorry” and “thank you.” I thought these were the most important words one could really say. My daughter disagrees. She would like to understand what is happening during services — and I can’t translate anything, or say much, but we pray in English several times each day at home, and akathists too during the week. Streaming services and pre-recorded videos in English help supplement our experience with the Church in person. In person, our clergy pray strongly and we feel their love!!! At night, my daughter will only listen to videos of their prayers, with their voices, even though in Slavonic — the Fathers that she knows. There is something in familiarity, in language but also in the men praying the words. // Thank you so much for your words, your time, attention.

  26. Holly Avatar
    Holly

    “I’m trying to fathom the notion that listening to a service in a language you don’t understand quiets the mind and opens the heart. ”

    Fr. Freeman – I can attest to this experience. I have been attending services in Church Slavonic and am slowly learning the language. It allows me to approach worship through the eyes of a child instead of fighting off my intellectual mind.

    I find the prayers echoing through my mind and understanding dawning at the strangest times. I do read the scriptures for the day and am looking forward to studying the Liturgy further in English. But very slowly learning another language that was created for worship, is most helpful to my understanding.

    One example I might give is the Our Father. In Church Slavonic, Father is the first word of the prayer, with “our” coming second, as Father is the most important word. The word “is/art” is more nuanced. A tentative English translation might be:
    “Father, of us, the One who is in heaven”

    It is a direct address to a very specific God, the Father.
    I find the English translation to read more as a definition.

  27. Drewster2000 Avatar
    Drewster2000

    Mark,

    I realize you’re having some tongue-in-cheek fun with greeting quotas, but I’ll take the bait anyway. Science at its best seems to be simply a concise way of telling us something about the world. It is the outside observer and observations can be extremely helpful. But ultimately our first priority as human beings most of the time is to be inside the action, doing the greeting, making the connections, being Christ to those around us without understanding the science of how it all works.

    A key example is public speakers. When they try to give a speech AND observe themselves giving it at the same time, they soon trip over their own tongue. Give the speech, man! Watch the video later and learn from your mistakes, but at this moment you just need to drop the analysis and be the speaker.

    triggered thoughts, drew

  28. Fr. Stephen Avatar

    Holly,
    In my parish (before I retired) I did little litanies in English, Romanian, and Slavonic, and the Lord’s Prayer in all three as well. In Old English, the Lord’s Prayer began: “Atta Unsa,” (Father our…) which is not grammatically possible in modern English. I suppose there can be a meditating comfort of sort that can accompany hearing another language being chanted in a prayerful manner. Nonetheless, there are Orthodox principles for the language being understood by the people that are exceedingly ancient. The entire purpose of translating into Slavonic was not to creat a ‘prayer language,’ but to be understood by the peoples who spoke that. It’s far closer to Bulgarian than modern Russian. Indeed, the Greek in the services today is not understood by modern Greeks unless they have been schooled in it. A sort of reverence has grown up around both Slavonic and Byzantine Greek that resists translation into a modern language – but there is nothing to be found in either the Scriptures or the Fathers that justifies continuing to pray in a language not understood by the people (cf. 1 Cor. 14 for St. Paul’s thought on praying in a language that is understood). Romania and Serbia, for example, both chose to eventually leave Slavonic behind and pray in the language of the people – without harm to the Church or their devotion. I’ve had Russian members in my parish who have said that they did not understand the liturgy back home in Slavonic – but finally understood it in English!

    I respect piety and understand that it takes us into places hard to explain – so I feel for those who have an attachment to older language use in the services. There are many Americans and other English-speakers who are attached to King James English and want it used in their services.

    Any language used with reverence and devotion is capable of being used in the worship of God. No translator (of an original sort) ever purposefully rendered his translation into a language not understood by the people for whom it was intended. Only time, immigration, and other historical interventions have brought about our present situation. I leave it to the Providence of God as to whether it is good. Nonetheless, that language is meant to be understood is the most ancient principle of the Church in this matter.

  29. Mark Spurlock Avatar
    Mark Spurlock

    Drewster,

    Your point about being too conscious of the self when doing most things is, of course, true. Artists, athletes, and (dare I say) lovers would all agree 🙂

    To be sure, I don’t mean to imply science is bad, but (more narrowly) using “science” to optimize for the sake of optimization and not even understanding what we’re optimizing for. In the Gallup example, what exactly is a well-being score? No doubt Gallup defines it somewhere, but media typically report the result as “Greeting people–up to six times per day–is good for you.”

    The same thinking in economic terms is at the heart of the original post: GDP sort of tells us something, but does that mean we should optimize human activity toward maximum GDP?

    Do we then measure the value of a human being on how much he or she contributes to GDP?

  30. Nikolaos Avatar
    Nikolaos

    Dee

    If you like Orthodox Byzantine chant, you will enjoy this Liturgy, sung in a slightly more melodious, still Byzantine style, with the best Priest and Deacon voices. I have not managed to figure out which Church in Greece they are from.

    https://youtu.be/P1BnQT307y4?si=wUmVLOKA2pdbufWc

  31. Fr. Stephen Avatar

    Holly, et al
    Do please forgive me if I seem intransigent about this matter of language. It comes from my heart as a pastor. I’m aware of misunderstandings people endure because of language issues – and, of course, in Appalachia I’m sensitive to the needs of a population who have no feel for Greek or Slavonic (some would say that we barely have a feel for English!). Even a simple phrase like даждь нам днесь (give us today) is not understood in modern Russian. And the phrase сами себе и друг друга и весь живот наш Христу Богу предадим…can be confusing, in that in modern Russian живот means “stomach” whereas in Slavonic it means “life.” I had one Russian woman tell me that she thought the prayer was somehow referring to our stomach, or maybe the Virgin’s womb. I once a similar problem with an English speaker who had no experience of Thee-Thou-Thy. He said to me, “When you say, “Thy hand,” do you mean, “Your hand?” The coin had finally dropped for him. And, of course, those English speakers who imagine that King James English is more reverent than modern English do King James English a disservice – it’s not reverent, it’s just old. They think “Thy” is more respectful towards God, but it’s original meaning is just the opposite. Older English had a formal (You) and informal (Thee) form of the second person pronoun. The informal was used for close friends, animals, and God (because it is an intimate relationship). “You” “Your” was the “respectful” form of the pronoun. But – usage changes things – in this case, changing them into the opposite of their intended meaning.

    There are many examples of poor translations today. Our modern speech is filled with disrespect and I understand that. But we should be careful not to create new or innovationist principles to replace the ancient ones. The Catholics used to do that to explain their insistence on Latin – and the Orthodox condemned this. We should become hypocritical about this because our circumstances have altered.

    I personally prefer the English translations that have been done in England (Fr. Ephrem Lash, I think) to our American ones. But I use what the Church (OCA) provides and work at trying to nurture attention in my wayward heart. It’s not easy.

  32. Dana Ames Avatar
    Dana Ames

    On Mary: I understand the reticence. All of the coins didn’t drop until after I was chrismated. Fr Stephen is correct on this: we preach Christ crucified, and a proper understanding of the Theotokos logically follows. Once we understand the import and ramifications of the Incarnation (which is pretty much ignored in Protestant theology), especially expressed in the liturgical poetry, we can understand Mary more clearly. Give it time.

    Matthew, I’ve found the exposition of Scripture in the Orthodox Church is the clearest in the Vespers/Matins services (together: the Vigil), in the poetry including the prayers and declarations in Vespers and the Canon in Matins, standing alongside the Scripture readings for comparison. This is the case for each Sunday, with the subject the Resurrection foremost, in addition to the texts for the Feast days. These are available in English on line; look around, so that you can perhaps read before you go to Liturgy. Also, I think that alongside the Nicene Creed, the anaphora of the Liturgy of St Basil is the most concise “statement of faith” of the Orthodox – much on which to meditate there.

    Dana

  33. Holly Avatar
    Holly

    Fr. Freeman — I realize my situation may be somewhat unique, but I did not consciously decide to find a church with a Liturgy I didn’t understand. It was simply where I was led.

    I’m aware of the history and importance within Orthodoxy of having a Liturgy that people can understand. I felt bad about continuing to go, in part because I thought I was doing something wrong.

    It was your writings that have helped me to see that God is working in my life in a uniquely particular way. For now, attending the services lets me be like a child and to play in church, with moments of wonder when I suddenly understand something new. It also allows me to “not be useful”, because all I can do is open my heart, be humble and grateful and pray.

  34. Holly Avatar
    Holly

    Fr. Freeman — Thank you.
    I want to apologize for my defensiveness. I wrote my last comment before I saw your post about the challenges of language from the perspective of a priest. I happen to come from the exact opposite situation, where learning and knowledge was prioritized above all else.

    It is still hard for me to not try to understand everything.
    By the grace of God, I was led to a place that feeds me in a way I desperately need.

  35. Fr. Stephen Avatar

    Holly,
    You are blessed and God’s grace is obviously with you in your situation. I never cease to be amazed at His wonders!

  36. Dee of St Herman Avatar
    Dee of St Herman

    Nikolaos,
    Thank you so much! It’s absolutely beautiful! I do enjoy listening to it.

    The video pictures are edifying, too. I tried to find out if I could purchase the music on my phone. But I haven’t found a way yet besides obtaining YouTube Prime. I’ll keep looking.

    I hope the following is appropriate. I’m very much a beginner.
    Σας ευχαριστώ πολύ

  37. Dee of St Herman Avatar
    Dee of St Herman

    Matthew,
    Following up with what Dana said about finding online sources, I have a link here to the American Archdiocese of the Greek Church “Digital Chant Stand” https://www.goarch.org/-/sunday-orthros
    You can find there Greek and English translations to the services.

  38. Eliza Avatar
    Eliza

    Father Stephen,

    Thank you for your answer.

    “ the modern analysis that sees a sinful “patriarchy” behind the male portrayal (“Father,” “Son,”) is utterly off-base – and is guilty of elevating our own minor cultural moment to a status above all others. But I don’t hear that in your comment or questioning.”

    I’m glad that you don’t hear that from me because that is not at all where I am coming from, or ever did. I am not with the anti-patriarchy ideologues. I simply wondered where a mother figure fit into the God family of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Why would there be no mother essence? Maybe this was and is an immature sort of question but it’s not driven by feminist ideology.

    Very fascinating, this,
    “ In Hebrew, Spirit (Ruach) is grammatically feminine. In Greek, (Spirit) is gramatically neuter.”

  39. Matthew Avatar
    Matthew

    Dana: Re: Mary … I will give it time. Thanks for the information about Scripture and where to hear it in different parts of the Liturgy. I will do some searching online.

    Dee: Thanks so much for the link. Much appreciated.

    Fr. Stephen: Are you saying that the litugical Greek which is spoken in the Greek Orthodox Church is not modern Greek? This is getting complicated …

  40. Matthew Avatar
    Matthew

    Fr. Stephen,

    It seems based on the limited research I did today that Koine Greek, which I thought was only biblical Greek, was actually the lingua franca of Jesus´time (if I have this correct). It apparently evolved into Medieval Greek and then into Modern Greek.

    What does this mean? That a speaker of Modern Greek can understand the Divine Liturgy in Koine Greek?

  41. Fr. Stephen Avatar

    Eliza,
    I think one conclusion that can be drawn is that when we say “Father” it is not implying a “maleness,” in the manner that we conceive of in our experience. Christ, indeed, is incarnate as a male (can’t be both) and I think it’s significant. We also say that the Church is His “bride.” And that is significant. I think we get things backwards. What we know of as “male” and “female” are but shadows, icons, of something greater. So we should not project them the other way. Instead, we ponder and wonder what it is that is greater of which we are but shadows, icons.

  42. Fr. Stephen Avatar

    Modern Greek (once described as “demotic” Greek) differs somewhat from Byzantine and Koine. I find little difference between Byzantine and Koine, frankly (as a foreigner). The modern pronounciation is used in the Church (so that the “Erasmian” pronunciation typically taught in colleges and seminaries is pretty useless). But, there are grammatical and vocabulary changes between the modern and Byzantine. A lot of the Greeks whom I know do not understand much of the Byzantine because of this, but, with study, there are some who do. I think Nikolaos or Dino could answer that question better than I can. But there are, from time to time, discussions about translating the Liturgy into Modern Greek. Thus far, those efforts have been rebuffed. And that’s an internal Greek debate.

    History is a complicated business.

  43. Lou. Avatar
    Lou.

    Fr. Stephen:

    Then again, “He was useless to you before but he will be Onesimus now.”

  44. Alan Avatar
    Alan

    Michelle, again, thank you for your comments.
    Not sure how much Father will allow me to say here, but at my own parish, we regularly have 3 lay people walking around shooting pictures the entire time. Within a few hours of the service ending, all of the parish social media channels have numerous posts up and several people in the parish have of course shared them. Meanwhile, we’re told from the pulpit to avoid social media. The irony is so thick it could be cut with a knife.

  45. Fr. Stephen Avatar

    Alan,
    Our world is ironic if it is anything!

  46. Matthew Avatar
    Matthew

    Thanks Fr. Stephen. Either way, I plan to start learning modern Greek even if it it Koine/Byzantine that is used in the liturgy.

  47. Michael Bauman Avatar
    Michael Bauman

    I have followed the conversation here as someone who came to the Church and, by Christ’s mercy lives in Her. The Arab portion–Antiochian, not Greek.
    I have learned and accepted that I will always be an outsider in many ways, but Christ is with us and His Mercy and Joy so I rejoice. The partaking together of His Body and Blood unites beyond all of it. Submit yourselves all ye people for God is with us.
    I see our theology as an expression of our communion — both as setting proper limits and describing the opening of our souls to the gift of the Holy Spirit. I find a lot of folks think the theology comes first and agreement theologically is the path to communion. I find that approach troublesome.

    My path to the Church has always been experiential.. I look to the theology to understand that experience and set the proper boundaries so as to avoid or repent the temptations of the Evil one.

    I take the same approach to Holy Scripture as an expression of the revelation of God through the Incarnation of His Son which I was shown during the Divine Liturgy on my first visit.

    Both the mystical theology I grew up with and later embraced in a more Christian form–often heretical unfortunately but sufficient to guide many of us to the Church in thanksgiving and repentance.

    Repentance seems to be effectively absent from Protestant theology. Despite the reality of both St John, the Baptizer and Christ Himself called all to repentance upon His Incarnation being revealed.
    Matthew 4:17 the words of our Lord Himself: “Repent, for the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand.”

    Repentance is the key. Our practice and theology is a fruit of repentance.

    Our souls and our minds are deeply confused. We struggle to work out way out of it with ax and shovel when there is a rescue helicopter right above us.

    ” Submit yourself all ye nations, for God is with us”

  48. Dee of St Herman Avatar
    Dee of St Herman

    For what it’s worth, as far as I know, when I say the “Our Father” prayer in Greek, I’m using the modern pronunciation (just recently explored this). However, I’m not so learned to know what the rest of the Greek is (modern or not–I think it might be a mixture) that is spoken in our Liturgy in my parish. I simply learned to pronounce it in the way others do in the parish.

  49. Dee of St Herman Avatar
    Dee of St Herman

    Holly and Alan,
    I thought it best to ‘cool my jets’ about my aversion to Protestantism and influences in American Orthodoxy, but I will say briefly that I have a lot of empathy for your perspectives.

  50. Fr. Stephen Avatar

    Dee, et al
    My first visit to an Orthodox Church was in college – indeed, it was a midweek service (Jan. 6 Theophany). I was majoring in Classical Greek (like Plato, etc.). At first, I didn’t understand anything, because of the modern pronunciation. But, I picked up the Liturgy Book in the pew, and began to follow along. I had no problem so long as the text was in front of me – Byzantine (and Koine) are close enough the Classical as to be easily understood from that perspective.

    I have a better “ear” for Slavonic (I had one semester of Russian in college), but I have no ear for how Slavonic differs from Russian – and have to have my native Russian speakers point it out to me. All in all, I think it’s fairly close. I have a Slavonic/English service book with footnotes on Slavonic words with the modern Russian word noted below. That tells me what is problematic and what is not. Romanian is interesting – for me it’s like Latin(ish) with Slavonic words thrown in hear and there – interesting.

    Of course, with Classical Greek and Latin, we were not taught to hear them nor to speak them. It was all about reading…which isn’t quite the point.

  51. Nikolaos Avatar
    Nikolaos

    Fr Stephen

    I would not be able to comment authoritatively on the evolution of Greek language, this requires a philologist expertise. I can say that modern Greek is simplified Ancient Greek. At school we were taught Ancient Greek, what I would call old Attic dialect (Thoukydides, Plato..). We needed translation to comprehend it. One can recognise words, but the meaning of the sentence is not easily understood, because the same word in modern Greek can have a different meaning.

    After Alexander the Great, in the Hellenistic period up to 1st century BC we see the old Attic dialect evolving into Atticism (I am not sure if this is the right English word for Αττικισμός). This is kind of newer Attic dialect and it is the language of the Fathers, more archaic than the “demotic” at the time of Christ, ie Koine ( κοινή means common).

    For an average Greek the language of the Divine Liturgy is almost 100% understood. I find the epistles of St Paul harder than the Gospels, perhaps he used more archaic language than Koine. Whilst Koine is more formal than present day spoken Greek (demotic – demos means people…hence democracy), it is fairly simple and certain expressions are used verbatim in modern Greek, eg when asked “how are you” most Greeks will reply “δόξα τω Θεώ” (doxa to Theo — meaning glory to God). Very often people use the expression “μνησθητί μου Κύριε” ( mnisthiti mou Kyrie – Lord remember me) which is what Dysmas, the wise robber uttered. All these are archaic forms.

    It is more difficult to follow the Matins, which is not written in Koine. For me it is impossible to understand the Katavasies, without translation. Katavasies alternate the St Kosmas Melodos prose canon and St John Damascene iambic canon. The iambic is almost incomprehensible, perhaps it is written in Homeric dialect (need to check this).

    The archaic language of the scriptures is beautiful and raises the spirit, so I prefer it from modern Greek translation. However, it is important to understand the meaning and if someone is able to pray (the art of the arts and science of sciences), this could be done in my language. I remember Leo Tolstoy’s tale of the three hermits, who prayed “three are ye, three are we, have mercy upon us” and walked on water !

  52. Matthew Avatar
    Matthew

    I´m a little lost. Sorry.

    If being Orthodox means not simply thinking about it, but actually being a living part of it (most especially in the Divine Liturgy), then wouldn´t it make sense to use a litugical language that people can learn and understand?

    It seems strange to me that the Greeks want to use a form of Greek that many (so it seems from the comments here) Greeks don´t use or understand. To me it´s like the “Latin only” Catholics wanting to hold onto a liturgical language that most people in the modern world don´t have access to.

  53. Matthew Avatar
    Matthew

    Michael said:

    “Repentance seems to be effectively absent from Protestant theology.”

    I´m not sure what you mean here Michael. Repentance is absolutely essential to the Protestants who lead me to Christ.

  54. Matthew Avatar
    Matthew

    Correction … it seems Nikolaos said that modern Greeks can understand their liturgy even if the liturgy is not itself in modern Greek. Thanks for this clarification Nikolaos.

  55. Matthew Avatar
    Matthew

    Correction … Nikolaos said that modern Greeks can understand their liturgy just fine even if the liturgy itself is not in modern Greek. Thanks for this clarification Nikolaos. As such, it probably makes sense for me to learn modern Greek if I intend to become part of a Greek Orthodox church hear in Germany.

  56. Dee of St Herman Avatar
    Dee of St Herman

    Matthew,
    My parish has liturgy books like those that Father Stephen mentions. One side has the Greek and the other English. It’s pretty easy to follow, especially if one is familiar with the Liturgy service structure. Our parish switches from Greek chanting to English and back. I find it edifying and sincerely appreciate having part of the service in Greek. I’m hoping one day I’ll be able to go to Greece and participate in services and follow a service that is fully in Greek.

  57. Fr. Stephen Avatar

    Matthew,
    Orthodoxy has a very complex history and a variety of cultures. It leaves it with paradox and contradictions from time to time. It’s like asking, “Why do the Chinese not like milk products?” (I’ve been told this, but don’t know if it’s true). Generally speaking, Orthodoxy doesn’t have a “let’s fix that” mentality which is primarily a modern American feature. So, we adjust ourselves to what is and get on with our lives.

    Americans all think they are in management. So when something bothersome comes up, we immediately go into fix-it mode (or complaining mode). Orthodoxy tends to move in centuries (or even slower). Frankly, “not fixing it” has saved us from many of the troubles that plague Christians everywhere else.

    All that is to say, asking questions like, “Wouldn’t it make sense if…” is a non-starter. Sometimes we do things that don’t make a lot of sense. It’s glorious.

  58. Michael Bauman Avatar
    Michael Bauman

    Matthew, there is the basic repentance of turning to Christ which is conversion. Then we have the Sacrament of Penance in the Church plus the spiritual work to allow Jesus to be closer to you within the Sacramental nature of the Church as we pray daily. I always think of Sacrament as “making sacred, Holy” of those who offer themselves as Jesus does. “The Cross, the Grave, and the glorious third day Resurrection..” The Grace is analogous of repentance. Resurrection in its fullness takes seeing the Grave, being in it and experiencing the Resurrection on a small scale, when I actually open my heart.

    Conversion is the first step; repentance is on going and deeper. That is my perception and experience. I think the discipline of repentance is largely missing in Protestantism thus no monastics, no Sacrament. I commend the Protestant’s call to Christ. but then what? I find it is the difference as 1st meeting someone vs marrying them and making love, perhaps accepting a child. Occasionally being selfish and distancing. I would have to tell my wife, I am sorry. Please forgive me.

    Before I was Orthodox, I loved the services of the Friends. The capacity to sit in silent prayer together is amazing…But even with that, I longed for the intimacy of Sacrament even though I barely knew what that was…

    My comment is a product of the radically different way I came to Christ and the Church plus my 37 years in the Church, by Grace, as I attempted to explain. Forgive me if I offended you.

  59. Shawn Avatar
    Shawn

    All Americans are in management – how true! We all have opinions and plans on how to fix a myriad of problems…just ask us.

    As an aside….when did American Christians get so concerned with leadership? Even before becoming more aware of the modern project, I was often perplexed at the emphasis on leadership in my church communities. At some level I had this question, “why are we focusing so much on leading when we’re called to follow Jesus?”. I’m just curious if this has always been a thing in the American Christian world to some degree, or if it’s a more recent phenomenon. I would imagine it has something to do with our management mentality and concern over the culture. Let’s train up leaders to manage the people and change the culture. Certainly doesn’t appear to be bearing much fruit in my opinion.

  60. Fr. Stephen Avatar

    Shawn,
    It’s a “recent” phenomenon. Modern Evangelicalism went sort of “mainstream” and “pop-culture” beginning in the 70’s-80’s and has been crazy ever since. It was not like that in the years before. A writer once observed that “American Christianity is 2,000 miles wide and two inches deep.”

  61. Byron Avatar
    Byron

    A humorous aside about ancient Greek: One of my university professors went to Greece and spoke ancient Greek while he was there. He was rather upset when the people with whom he was speaking asked him what language he was speaking!

  62. Janine Avatar
    Janine

    The Greek in church is not the ancient Greek of Homer. It’s much closer to modern Greek, and in fact simply because it has been retained and repeated in the Church it has a quality of stability. Classical Greek is different also. If you’ve ever heard someone read Beowolf or Chaucer with what is presumed to be original pronunciation you’ll know what I’m talking about. Plus when people in the West speak an academically learned Greek (Koine, Ancient, or otherwise) it’s usually with an entirely different pronunciation than a Greek speaker would use.

    Dee, I , too, like the system of switching between languages and having the books close at hand. It is indeed edifying as you say. The framework of the liturgy does something important that communicates to us. I once attended a Latin mass in a Catholic church and felt surprisingly comfortable. The structure and pace and rhythms were something with which I was already familiar

  63. Alan Avatar
    Alan

    Father and Shawn,
    Great line about Americans being in management. Although I’m sure part of what you said there Fr was directed at me. That’s fine, point taken.
    In my defense, I don’t remotely desire for Orthodoxy to change to fit me. I spent 40 years in the Protestant world and watched things always changing, everything constantly up for grabs. One of the things that greatly appealed to me about Orthodoxy was the idea that nothing ever changes. It’s sad to me to witness my parish change greatly, and actually adopt my things that are thoroughly Protestant in nature. I don’t believe I’m being an “American manager” for simply wanting Orthodoxy to just be….Orthodox.

    But as you said Father, the path is to not fix it and not complain. I’ll never “fix” one thing in my parish, so I’m good on that point. I’ll work to stop complaining.

  64. Alan Avatar
    Alan

    Shawn, thanks for your last comment here.
    Astute observations.

  65. Fr. Stephen Avatar

    Alan,
    It wasn’t actually pointed in your direction. It’s just a general observation of an almost universal American way of viewing things. Modernity wants to improve things…it’s in our bones. I think as I get older I look back on many of my improvement efforts over the years and realize that they were often misguided or beside the point. I think, for example, about the current sizable influx of converts into American Orthodoxy (it’s all over the place). We don’t actually know how it came about (I’ve got some guesses), and it’s bringing both blessings and problems. But, just like we didn’t bring it about by our own efforts, we’re likely not to know what to do with it (should we know?). I am daily looking more and more to providence – the work of the Good God doing good in spite of us.

    There are all kinds of frustrations – I have mine as much as anyone. But God is working in us both to will and to do of His good pleasure… Give us grace, O Lord!

  66. Alan Avatar
    Alan

    Great comments Father.
    Even though you didn’t direct that at me, there’s certainly solid advice there that I need to take to heart. So….thank you.
    Interesting comment about the sizable influx of converts into American Orthodoxy. I think about that quite often. As you well note, that bring blessings and problems. I often shudder at what guys like me have brought in. As you’ve stated often, it’s God’s Church, He’ll keep and protect The Church.
    Thanks again Father.

  67. Matthew Avatar
    Matthew

    Michael: You didn´t offend me. Thanks so much for your thoughts.

    Fr. Stephen: Sometimes not making sense is glorious! Thanks for that thought! It is very difficult for someone who is coming from a Protestant perspective not to try and manage things in the church … even if it is the Orthodox Church. Protestants are forever changing things all in the name of searching for the correct kind of church even though the Church has always existed. It cannot be easy dealing with converts from my tribe, though I wonder if it is any easier dealing with converts who had no religious background at all before embracing Orthodoxy?

    Also Fr. Stephen … have you written anything about Orthodox/Roman Catholic relations? I ask because I spent the weekend at a Benedictine Convent as a guest with my wife. Some things about the differences between the two church´s came up (for obvious reasons). Even if the schism never happened, would it be fair to say that due to sincere cultural differences the theology and spirituality in east and west would have been very, very different?

    I heard the Lord´s Prayer (Pater Noster) and the Nicene Creed this weekend sung in Latin. It was very beautiful. I wonder what they each would sound like sung in Greek or Russian or Romanian or or or. I assume they would also sounds marvelous! 🙂 Maybe I can find an audio resource online somewhere.

    Good to be back.

  68. K Avatar
    K

    Thank you Fr.Stephen for your thoughtful articles and personal anecdotes . They are an encouraging word to the weary .

  69. Fr. Stephen Avatar

    Matthew,
    Love covers everything – teaches us patience – and brings us to God. The hardest things (conversion wise), in my experience, is simply the healing of trauma. Sometimes that can be the trauma of bad theology, or a dysfunctional family, or abusive situations. Otherwise, it’s always a learning matter. And, ultimately, we learn best by doing. To this day, there are “things” that I know in various phrases, etc., in which the “coin will drop” while I’m doing something, and suddenly I’ll realize that I had not “known” it until that moment. I pray this never ends.

    I have not written on specific relationships such as Orthodoxy and Roman Catholicism. I’m not a bishop, so it’s outside my competency. There is a Western Rite within Orthodoxy. I’ve only seen a Western Rite service on a Youtube. I’ve read some of the books. It is truly “Western” but made comformable to Eastern theology at key points.

    The West began to differ from the East in some early centuries (though not the earliest). St. Irenaeus of Lyons, for example, late 2nd century, wrote in Greek and clearly thought that way. Even in Rome, the earliest liturgies were likely in Greek, because that was the language on the streets in the Roman Empire – it was the “lingua franca” of the time.

    The strongest deviations do not seem to come until after Charlemagne when there was a definite drive to Latinize and the exalt Rome over Constantinople – something that served the political designs of Charlemagne himself. The Medieval period in the West becomes, to my mind, quite strange, with very strong “Germanic” influences of various sorts. There was more continuity in Constantinople. But, we survived it.

  70. Dee of St Herman Avatar
    Dee of St Herman

    Matthew,
    You asked about possible differences/problems in comparison between Protestants who become Orthodox versus ‘non-believers’ who become Orthodox.

    Speaking as a representative from the latter camp, becoming Orthodox = becoming Christian in their own eyes. Initially, their self-questioning about ‘Why am I doing this?’ also circles the question, ‘Is Christ real, or am I duping myself?’ In the latter case, someone might say, “I believe there is a Christ”, without having the wherewithal to have any notion of what living *in* Christ is. Faith in such infancy is more on the level of knowledge of God as an object; the knower is separate from God, often vacillating on rational proof/explanation of what is going on in their minds and behavior. It may take people from my camp longer to understand that knowledge is the union of persons and co-existence–my truth is His Truth.

  71. Matthew Avatar
    Matthew

    Dee: Thanks so much for the explanation. 🙂

    Fr. Stephen: I understand a bit of the history of the schism, but my concern lies elsewhere. If there had never been a schism (or Reformation for that matter), then it appears we would have had a unified church with two very different spiritual and theological paradigms. Why would God have allowed such confusion in a thoroughly unified church?

  72. Michael Bauman Avatar
    Michael Bauman

    Matthew, speaking as both a history major and a life long student of history, doing the “what if” is only relevant for producers of bad movies. The main assumption in such wonderings is that if one thing is changed, everything else remains the same. That assumption is false. It can never occur as human beings are created and given life in a dynamic interrelationship of such a nature is that my life, as poor and sinful as it is affects your life and everybody else even though we do not know each other.
    Jesus does not call us to isolation and imaginings but to Communion with. Him through Sacrament and Community. That changes everyone even if we do not realize it.

    It is difficult to understand and recognize the truth in history as it is. Few manage to do so in part because it is easy to tinker with it. Plus we never know enough. Historical bias is a real problem that even the most disciplined historian never rids themselves of entirely.

    The written history of the Church is largely a dramedy about the sin and ideology that seems dominate at the time. Being consecrated a Bishop can become a horrible burden because the illusion of power can be overwhelming.

  73. Michael Bauman Avatar
    Michael Bauman

    Dino, your observation is also the reason celibacy exists in the Church.

  74. Dino Avatar
    Dino

    Father et al,
    I’m sure this has been stated before regarding contemporary Greeks’ understanding of Greek Liturgical language (and the -easier- original Gospel language), in essence: it is rather easy but requires some effort – which is highly dependent on someone’s prior education.
    It’s probably somewhat similar to reading Shakesperean English.
    Older Greek generations had studied enough of their language in school to understand at least 90% of it all I’d say; with the exception of the deliberately arcane/Homeric poetry of the Iambic Canons (that requires targeted effort and did so even when it was first written and there is a reason for that requirement).
    Nowadays, a little effort in learning certain terms – akin to what, for instance, someone building their own PC would exert in learning certain technical terms without complaining about it – would enable you to verbally understand everything in Church… ie: not the depths of allegories, just the language, but a little more effort would help with the “depths” too.
    Of course, translating into modern and then doing a service like that would be a disaster! Like having a priest serving in a swimsuit or something equally vulgar and tasteless.
    The consecrated manner of the ancient “This is my Body” [in Greek] would sound like a crass rapper saying “have a piece of me bro” if replaced with the modern Greek equivalent. Possibly worse. Saint Sophrony has written very clearly on this.
    Only people who harbor a hate towards Christ’s Body can support such a notion

  75. Fr. Stephen Avatar

    Dino,
    Fascinating. I knew that yourself or Nikolaos (our native speakers) would be able to answer this best. You have what I cannot have – a “feel” for the language that only comes with the fluency of a native. I’ve studied and read Homeric, Attic, Koine, and Byzantine – but being able to read is not the same thing as describing how it “feels.”

    Greek has, I think, a very unique position within Orthodoxy as the primary language in which the bulk of our theology was formulated and written, as well as the language of our worship. I’m keenly aware, for example, that, in translation, much is being missed. There are “word plays,” puns, and other such joyful usages that are lost in translation. Such treasures, if wholly forgotten or unknown, (and these are only the smallest sorts of examples), would be losses beyond expression.

    What I have not studied (and thus have no opinion worth considering) is “modern” Greek. I am aware of the historical arguments regarding its adoption as the national language following independence. What I do know is that it has never gotten any traction as a desirable liturgical language.

    I suspect this differs from language to language (probably the most complex activity of human beings). Of course, modern culture has become rather coarse and given to slang (and worse). We “use” our language but we do not seem to love it.

    I think that there are no peoples who love their language as much as the Greeks. The closest rival would be Russians – where a poet is held in a regard unknown in the modern West.

    Thank you so much for the help! A blessed New Year!

  76. Fr. Stephen Avatar

    Matthew,
    Forgive me, but it’s an question that can have no answer. “What would have been” had there been no schism is pure speculation. The “schism” likely “began” when the evolution and developments of the West ceased to listen to the corrections and concerns in the East – or so it seems to me. The schism was born in “deafness.” That deafness, at some point, became an arrogance (such as seeking to impose the false doctrine of the filioque over every objection that was raised). Nonetheless, there “could” have been a Western expression of Orthodoxy (I suppose) but we are only just now beginnig to learn what that might look like.

    Among the deepest struggles of Orthodoxy is the daily trial of maintaining the unity of the Church. It is torn by personalities, politics, sin of every sort. What amazes me is that we have never abandoned the struggle, much less made peace with a false paradigm in which unity would be merely cosmetic and not real. It’s like a 2000 year old marriage. It is the very heart of the Church’s existence – it’s true life. Anything less would be to abandon the furnace of God’s love.

    But, God is not the author of confusion. I would say, though, that just about any question that begins, “Why would God have allowed…” is a non-starter. Everything is providential. Everything. Because God is good.

  77. Matthew Avatar
    Matthew

    Thanks so much Fr. Stephen. It sounds to me like from an Orthodox perspective the Roman Catholics “went out from us”, rather than the other way around. No problem. I´m just looking for clarity and consistency.

  78. Fr. Stephen Avatar

    Matthew,
    That “they went out from us” is historically accurate. There is a reason that Rome eventually (19th century) “developed” a doctrine that is now dogma on the notion of the “development of doctrine.” Orthodoxy has no such teaching and would reject it as a proper way of speaking. It has become, to my mind, a Trojan Horse for heresy and moral devolution in some Catholic circles. It is certainly ill-suited to speak to modernity – a cultural force of enormous power that uses the mantra of “progress” and “development” to conform everything to itself.

  79. Matthew Avatar
    Matthew

    I think you are correct in your assessment Fr. Stephen. Here in Germany there is a lot of pressure from both inside and outside the Roman Catholic Church to surrender to the power of the zeitgeist and modernity. My experience has also been that at the local parish level you get different priests believing different things. It´s as if they are not really towing the hard Vatican party line so to speak. One priest told my wife all you have to do is believe the Nicene Creed and you can become Catholic. That is not how I understand things and I was raised Roman Catholic. I say all this to highlight that such has not been my experience with Orthodoxy.

  80. Fr. Stephen Avatar

    Matthew,
    Yes. That sounds about right. I do not mean to sound as though I am disparaging Orthodoxy when I offer critical takes on various things from time to time – mostly, I want to refrain from sounding triumphalist or of painting a naive, inaccurate picture. “We have this treasure in earthen vessels” – and the great earthen vessel of history and human sin should be acknowledged. It does not, however, make all things “relative” or mean that “nobody’s right.” I think that God has uniquely preserved Orthodoxy for our sake, despite the many ravages of time. Indeed, some of those ravages have themselves served to protect us. Lastly, the story of that preservation is far more complex than many people realize.

    We live in interesting times.

  81. Matthew Avatar
    Matthew

    We do live in interesting times Fr. Stephen. One last thing on this topic (kind of):

    Even when there are problems within Orthodox jurisdictions, and even when it looks like a “split”, the Orthodox Church still officially remains undivided? Is that correct?

  82. Fr. Stephen Avatar

    Matthew,
    There are “splits” (such as the current break in communion between Moscow and Constantinople). Generally, those splits represent ecclesiological tensions (as in, who has the right to grant “autocephaly” – something that is less than clear in the canons). Such a split could, indeed, result in an actual schism, if it is not resolved and healed. Thus far, such things have managed to be healed, but the Church remains ever watchful. That’s still a world removed from doctrinal disruptions. But that dynamic is an inherent part of the “working” of Orthodoxy and has been present throughout the centuries.

  83. Matthew Avatar
    Matthew

    Thanks so much Fr. Stephen. As always … more than helpful!

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