You Have One Job – Pray – On Behalf of All and for All

The topics of heaven, hell, purgatory, hades, life-after-death, the judgment, etc., are not among my favorites. There is a particular reason for this: everybody thinks they know more about this than they do and most people assume the Church says more about this than it does. Much of the problem, I think, lies in the fact that we torture the faith into geographical shapes, when it belongs in relational dynamics. That is to say, we think that describing heaven and hell (and other such terms) along with the rules for how they work (as places) somehow states something important and explains life-after-death. This is not only not true, but terribly misleading. It has also been a problem within Christianity for a very long time.

The debates between Protestant and Catholic, beginning in the 16th century, often centered on the rules for life-after-death (generally subsumed under the notion of how we are “saved”). That debate tended to press Christians into saying more and more about what they did not know, and forced institutions into hardened positions of dogma where no dogma belonged. Orthodoxy is neither Protestant nor Catholic, nor did it take part in the debates of those centuries. As a result, many things that are treated as hard and fast matters of assurance and dogma by Western Christians are simply not found in a definitive manner within the Orthodox faith.

Many modern Christians are completely taken by surprise when they discover that the early Church was relatively vague about such things when they are so carefully defined in modern traditions. For example, neither Protestants nor Catholics would ever think of praying for someone in hell. For them, however they understand hell, it is a matter of finality. For the Catholic, if you are suffering after death and it is not hell, then it is purgatory. For Protestants, you are either “saved,” and thus go to heaven, or “not saved,” and thus go to hell. No in between and no movement from one to the other. Again, these things are seen as hard and fast rules.

The Orthodox specifically pray for those in hell.

Saying that, it is necessary to say something about the word “hell.” Depending on the translator, the words “hades” and “hell” are frequently used interchangeably. Some, however, distinguish between “hades,” meaning “the place of the dead,” and “hell,” the place of final torment. Those who would press such meanings onto the prayers of the Church will find that “hades” frequently, and most often, contains the notion of torment as much as the word “hell.” For myself, I use them interchangeably for the simple reason that the terms are misunderstood when attached to some sort of geography of place – “this is hades and that is hell.” The point isn’t the place or its name, but loss of communion with God and the torments associated with it.

It would be surprising to most to see the messiness of the various ways in which heaven/hell, etc. are spoken about in the writings of the early Church. The New Testament itself does not have a careful, systematic understanding either. Indeed, “Gehenna,” a term used by Christ that seems to be an equivalent of “hell,” is not fully understood. You’ll find lots of knowledgeable explanations in various articles, all of which pretend to a precise knowledge that simply doesn’t exist. The term is found in Jewish writings dating back to the time of Christ, but is not treated as a place of eternal torments, per se. Careful parsing of the various terms seems almost beside the point when we see the variety of usage in Orthodox language. What the Church preaches is not a doctrine about places, but a doctrine of our relation and communion with God. If place-names are used, they are a matter of convenient imagery rather than a description of the topography of the larger world.

I will try to describe what I see in the prayers of our Orthodox faith. The point of all of our prayers is the salvation of everyone and everything. There is nothing beyond the reach of the Church’s prayers. This is true both in this life and the next. God is the God of all things, everywhere and at all times, and we can ask for anything of Him and make intercessions with boldness, trusting that He is good and that He wills good for us and for all.

For the departed, we pray that their “sins might be forgiven” and that their rest might be in “Abraham’s bosom, a place of refreshment, a place of repose, etc.” This is language drawn from various places in Scripture and elsewhere and is meant to say that we pray that all will be well with them in their eternal relation to God and all others. “May their rest be in paradise,” carries the same meaning.

Even at the funeral of the greatest saint, the Church prays the same prayers: for the forgiveness of their sins and their eternal rest. As the prayer says, “For there is no one who lives and does not sin.” The Church does not make a judgment about the salvation of anyone – that belongs only to God. We do not say that this one is saved and that one is not. When, at certain times, the Church declares someone to be a saint, we are only saying that God has shown us, over time, that this person is with Him, and that their prayers may be sought for our help, etc. We do not “make them saints.” Saints are revealed, not created.

At the funeral of the greatest sinner, the Church would make the same prayers, and they are entirely appropriate. It is true that, in the Tradition, a distinction is made about funerals within the Church (normally, the non-Orthodox are not buried from the Church). But the worst Orthodox sinner would still be buried from the Church as would the greatest saint, with the same prayers.

In that service, there is a particular prayer that should be noted. It is an authoritative act of forgiveness:

May the Lord Jesus Christ, our God, Who gave His divine commandments to His holy disciples and apostles, that they should bind and loose the sins of the fallen, (and we, in turn, have received authority to do the same), forgive you, my spiritual child, whatever transgressions you have committed in life, voluntary or involuntary. And if Your servant has fallen under a curse of (his, her,) father, or mother, or under (his, her,) own anathema; or if (he, she) provoked one of the priests and received from him an unbreakable bond; or if (he, she) incurred excommunication by a bishop, and through indifference and thoughtlessness did not receive forgiveness, forgive (him, her,) Lord, through me, a sinner and Your unworthy servant. This we ask through the intercessions of Your most pure and ever-virgin Mother, and of all Your saints.

I have particularly appreciated the mentioning of our “indifference” or “thoughtlessness.” It is a prayer that illustrates the mercy of God.

And for the non-Orthodox, there are prayers. Though they are not buried from the Church, a priest may still bury them, and we are not told to be shy in our prayers for them. There is a wonderful set of prayers for the departed, the Akathist for the Repose of the Departed, that may be prayed anywhere, and particularly in our private homes. An excerpt illustrates its boldness and trust in God’s mercy:

O Father of all consolation, You brighten with the sun, delight with fruits, and gladden with the beauty of the world both Your friends and enemies. We believe that even beyond the grave Your loving-kindness, which is merciful even to all rejected sinners, does not fail. We grieve for hardened and lawless blasphemers of holiness; O Lord, may Your saving and gracious will be over them. Have compassion upon those wounded by pernicious unbelief, and who have not known You here on earth, that they may know and love You in heaven; O Lord, forgive those who have died without repentance, and save those who have committed suicide in darkness of mind, that the flame of their impiety may be extinguished in the sea of Your Grace.

O Lord of unutterable love, remember Your servants who have fallen asleep!

Terrible is the darkness of a soul separated from God, the torments of conscience, the gnashing of teeth, the unquenchable fire and the undying worm. I tremble at such a fate and, as for myself, I pray: O you that suffer in hades, may our song descend upon you as a refreshing dew: Alleluia!

Your light, O Christ our God, has shone upon those that sit in darkness and the shadow of death, and those in hades, who are not mindful of You; having descended into the nethermost parts of the earth, bring out into joy those who have been separated from You by sin, but who have not renounced You; O Lord, Your children suffer, forgive them; for they have sinned against Heaven and before You, immeasurably serious are their sins, but also infinite is Your mercy. Visit the bitter destitution of souls far removed from You; O Lord, have mercy on those who hated the truth out of ignorance, let Your love be to them not a burning fire, but the cool delight of Paradise.

The last phrase within these prayers goes to the heart of the Orthodox understanding of hell (hades), and heaven, etc. “Let Your love be to them not a burning fire, but the cool delight of Paradise.” There is no doubt, whatsoever, that everyone is met with the love of God. That is simply the final state of all the departed: they are in the love of God. How that love is experienced is the matter in doubt. It is wrong, I think, to describe this as mere subjectivity, for subjectivity and objectivity belong to this world and not to that one.

The old debates of Catholic and Protestant have created a spiritual habit of thinking of all of these things in terms of places and rules and a near mechanical dynamic. Its importation into Orthodoxy is, to my mind, a diluting of the faith and a distraction from the fullness of the Tradition. It teaches us to think and pray in a non-Orthodox manner.

Instead, we pray. Prayer is the consistent and unending response of the Orthodox believer to the death of anyone. We trust in God who is our salvation. Jesus has revealed to us the love of God and done everything that is necessary for the salvation of the whole world. There is nothing lacking. Our prayers do not add to what Christ has done. Rather, they unite our hearts to what He has done and offer to God, with groaning, the prayer of Christ for all: “Forgive them.” If this is not the prayer of our heart, then our heart has become estranged from God, at least in that matter.

But our hope is not in places, nor in mechanical operations of salvation. Our hope is in Christ who has done all that we could possibly ask or think. When we pray, our thoughts should be towards Him, and the infinite goodness of His mercy. The priest stands at the altar, and the people join Him in the union of their lifted hearts. He presents the one sacrifice of Christ on the Cross, made present on the altar in the Body and Blood of Christ and prays, “On behalf of all and for all.”

This should inform and overshadow all conversations about our life in Christ. Everything else tends to be distraction.

About Fr. Stephen Freeman

Fr. Stephen is a retired Archpriest of the Orthodox Church in America, Pastor Emeritus of St. Anne Orthodox Church in Oak Ridge, Tennessee. He is also author of Everywhere Present: Christianity in a One-Storey Universe, and Face to Face: Knowing God Beyond Our Shame, as well as the Glory to God podcast series on Ancient Faith Radio.



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134 responses to “You Have One Job – Pray – On Behalf of All and for All”

  1. Fr. Stephen Freeman Avatar

    Christopher,
    You misunderstand me – or want to make me say something I am not saying. I do not in the least believe in a “necessity” that all be saved – no mechanism, etc. In that sense, I would be rather certain that St. Gregory is wrong, together with Origen. It is the final outcome (without a theological explanation one way or the other). I do not espouse a universalism precisely because I do not believe in a “mechanism” of salvation.

    Rather, I hope for the salvation of all, in that I trust in the love of God as inexhaustible – such that – if there be a way – it will be so.

    There are plenty of imponderables within all of this. But, if I must choose imponderables, I choose the love of God above all else. And, in that, I choose hope. For, if there is no hope at the end of all things, then why should I have any hope along the way? Then my heart would indeed be broken.

    I would not have such hope, were there not bread crumbs (of sorts) such as St. Pophyrios’ words to Mother Gavriilia. There are many other examples of such crumbs. I do not ignore them, much less rule them out. That would be to exalt some other kind of mechanism – that of a required damnation.

    I am permitted such hope as a faithful, Orthodox priest.

  2. Christopher Avatar
    Christopher

    Father,

    Perhaps “trust” is too strong. Forgive me for not agreeing with you on this – this too is permitted as I understand it. Perhaps there is not the distance between our hope as there seems by our words and experiences!

    I am encouraged by your last post on a way forward however!!

  3. Rand Avatar
    Rand

    Questions this piece and discussion have caused me to think about (again, in some cases):

    Is Christ on the Cross the full revelation of God’s nature? If so, any eschatology that treats Christ as if His nature has changed from the Cross to the throne seems, in a word, doomed.
    The Church’s prayers are to be prayed (if you say “duh,” out loud, I’m not offended); if, hypothetically, there was no hope, for what reason would these prayers exist? The question may seem rhetorical. It is not. I’m very ignorant in many things.
    Does it matter that the New Jerusalem in Jeremiah 31 has her walls encompass the valley of Hinnom? Or is this symbol without meaning to the Church?

    There are other things I’m mulling over. But those are enough for now.

  4. Fr. Stephen Freeman Avatar

    Rand,
    I would agree that Christ on the Cross reveals God to us – that it is not a temporary side-action in history. St. Maximus the Confessor said that whoever understands the mystery of the Cross understands all things. I cannot look at the Cross and not hope. Just doesn’t seem possible.

    Also, I had never noticed, much less pondered the passage in Jeremiah 31. Made my day. A cursory glance at classic Protestant interpretations made me smile. They admit that the new boundaries enclose Gehenna – but, they say, it’s because (for all intents and purposes) it’s been relocated. I suppose it’s the “gentrification” of hell. That reminds me that when I was on a pilgrim bus outside of Jerusalem, the guide pointed to a very wonderful green lawn (looked like a golf course lawn) and said, “That’s Gehenna.” The only building there now is a Presbyterian Church. Figures.

  5. Agata Avatar
    Agata

    Dear Father Stephen and Friends,
    Your conversation reminded me of this beautiful story from St. Silouan:

    “St. Silouan the Athonite once, exhausted, in despair, tired of crying, lay on the floor at night. The Lord appeared to him in an incomprehensible way and asked: “Why are you crying? .. Do you not know that I will judge the world? .. I will have mercy on every man who at least once in his life called God.”
    Then the thought ran through his mind: “Then why are we so tormented all day? “And the Lord responded to the movement of his thought: ” Those who suffer for My commandment will be My friends in the Kingdom of Heaven, but the rest I will just have pity. ” And the Lord departed.”

    We just try our best to be as close to Christ as we can, and leave the rest to His Mercy. Why be tormented by what we cannot know?

  6. Rand Avatar
    Rand

    Fr. Freeman,

    Thanks so much for the response. It made my day in return.

    Also, for the laugh. Of course it had to be the Presbyterians. Imagining the transaction (what was written on the deed?!) has cracked me up.

  7. Dean Avatar
    Dean

    And I am permitted such hope as a faithful Orthodox layman.
    Rand, thank you also for that view of the New Jerusalem in Jeremiah 31…encompassing as it does Gehenna. Little gems and nuggets of hope!

  8. Paula AZ Avatar
    Paula AZ

    Agata,
    ” .. I will have mercy on every man who at least once in his life called God.” Yes! And how many, when in the throws of despair, or panic, cry out “Oh God!”. Now one may say, well, that is just a common exclamation from people in dire situations. But God hears. I know, because at a time very far from God I did the same thing. I had an experience that day that changed the course of my life. Indeed, He hears. He is near to all.

    “And the rest I will just have pity”….don’t think it is going to be that simple, Agata.

    “Why be tormented by what we cannot know?” Because love does that. Because in the sense that we are all His image, we are all His. Because of the horror of just imagining life apart from Christ (can you imagine that? Would you want that for another, even an enemy?).
    Oh I pray. I ask questions. Fervently. Sometimes tearfully. Can’t help it…

  9. Fr. Stephen Freeman Avatar

    Paula AZ,
    I’m like you on the “just have pity” thing. Everybody is some mother’s child. For that matter, everybody is Mary’s child – we have been given to her. I don’t think she’s gonna be quiet on the matter, either. I think God wants us to be noisy in our prayers – Jesus taught us to nag. Nagging in public is somewhat unseemly – but, privately, we should nag.

  10. juliania Avatar
    juliania

    “…To make a beginning, my most common advice is to begin by giving thanks in the midst of one’s own suffering – always and for everything. Without this mystical union in Christ, we will never be able to bear the greater sufferings of others with the proper heart that does them benefit…”

    When my father died, I was down at the furtherest reaches of our earth, where I was born, and his passing was of great moment to me. My little Russian Orthodox church was way, way up in the northern hemisphere, and the ceremony for my father was far from it. It was a ceremony of cremation, nonreligious and to me awful. It was my personal hell to be there at that time, and I fell to my knees.
    My mother gave me his war letters – he had been in North Africa. I took one to read as unlike the others it was typed. It was a letter to his father written from Jerusalem. I read it. Then I saw that I was reading it on the day of the year that he had written it. It was about his leave then, visiting all the holy places in Jerusalem! I mailed that letter to my church, and Father kept it in the altar until I returned. Also, though I wasn’t there, he said all the prayers for the departed for my father at the next Liturgy.

    Our entire families, their names, Orthodox or not, were always mentioned as the Liturgy on Sunday was prepared. But my spiritual father said the prayer for the departed for my father, even in my absence. That meant the whole world to me. He did that whenever we requested it for someone, Orthodox or not, and we did so often. In boldness, and without condemnation. (I realize that is far from usual.)

    Indeed, we are meant to, we must, be as inclusive of all as it is possible to be. I continue to ask, especially for members of my family and friends who are not Orthodox as so many are not. I am as Mary of Egypt but not the saint she was. And my father was once in Jerusalem. His first name is James. Father said that the saint to ask intercession on his part is Saint James, the Bishop of Jerusalem.

    We are all sinners, but God is kind.

  11. Fr. Stephen Freeman Avatar

    Juliana,
    My father served in North Africa a well. In obedience to my Bishop, I also pray for all the names given to me – Orthodox or not – without hesitation. Of course, about 3/4 of my congregation consists of converts. Almost none of them have Orthodox relatives. I pray for all.

  12. Paula AZ Avatar
    Paula AZ

    A heartened story, Juliania. So glad you shared. I can see why you used those particular words of Father Stephen to quote.
    That you found yourself reading your father’s letter on the day of the year he had written it…I can only exclaim, Oh the tenderness of our Lord toward us! It is as if He said to you, I am right here with you, always…through it all.
    You are blessed to have a priest as you describe, indeed, like our High Priest, so mindful of all souls. Must have been a poignant, yet sweet, moment when he said to pray to St James on behalf of your father, James.

    It is a comfort to know our Lord is ever so mindful of us all, in the joys and in the sufferings of life.

  13. Paula AZ Avatar
    Paula AZ

    ” For that matter, everybody is Mary’s child”.
    Yes, surely our Mother will not be quiet in Her prays for all!
    That’s good Father. Glad you mentioned that!
    And about the noisy prayers 🙂

  14. Agata Avatar
    Agata

    Dear Paula,
    “Just have pity” are not my words, these are Christ’s words for St. Silouan, offered to him in his state of despair and prayer [for the whole world, presumably] (and we are not St. Silouans in our prayer for others, as Father said above, even when we pray with our sincere love).
    I think we read different meaning into this expression, to me it’s full of hope for everyone – that the Lord will be merciful to all – while offering the encouragement and inspiration to us to follow the example of the Saints who will get to be Christ’s friends in the Kingdom.

  15. Justin Avatar
    Justin

    Rand – Thank you for pointing that out regarding Jeremiah 31.
    Fr Stepen – I’m still laughing about the current state of gehenna, and what now stands there…

  16. Dino Avatar
    Dino

    Father
    You hit the nail on the head with “Nagging in public is somewhat unseemly – but, privately, we should nag.”..

  17. Janine Avatar
    Janine

    Fr. Stephen, please forgive my possible obtuseness (and probable lack of understanding or knowledge about what is being discussed) but I think I need to start at a simple beginning with a question at this point. Why is it that Lazarus cannot reach to the rich man in hell to give him a drop of water?

  18. Janine Avatar
    Janine

    PS I don’t ask to be contentious, but because the question is “nagging” at me!

  19. Byron Avatar
    Byron

    We are all sinners, but God is kind.

    Juliania, thank you for this. Indeed, Glory to God!

  20. Fr. Stephen Freeman Avatar

    Janine,
    There is nothing in the parable that explains this. The clear point of the parable is to be generous to the poor, lest you fall into the fate of the Rich Man. It also carries the warning that unless you practice such generosity, you wouldn’t believe the truth even if someone came back from the dead and told you. Like other parables, the details of the story serve the point of the teaching. The parable is not structured by some sort of objective, fixed geography. Rather, the geography in the parable is set by the point of the story itself.

    The “great chasm” has been repeatedly abused through the centuries in a manner that simply obscures the point.

    However, since we know that Christ preached to those in Hades (Sheol), setting at liberty those who were held captive, whatever chasm there might have been is not unbridgeable by Him. “Lo, if I descend into hell, Thou art there.” (Ps 139)

  21. Janine Avatar
    Janine

    Thanks for your reply Father. Yes, clearly, the gap was bridged by Christ. But that “they won’t believe even if one comes back from the dead” still nags. That doesn’t speak to me some sharp distinction between believers and unbelievers, but rather within the heart a kind of deafness to the good. I think my own worldly experience is overlaying the discussion for me… there is that gap, in a troubled relationship, between reconciliation and forgiveness where any sort of abuse is ongoing. It doesn’t mean forgiveness can’t happen or isn’t offered, but it might mean you’ve got to stay away and you’re not the only one making choices. It makes a gulf at some point and under some circumstances. Today I thought about Judas, and the questions just keep coming up. But anyway, I feel like I agree with everything you have said.

  22. Paula AZ Avatar
    Paula AZ

    Janine and Father…thank you for the good question and answer.

    Janine…a fellow sister who attends to the nagging questions! We all have them, don’t we. It is all too easy for me to “react” and in defense (really, a reaction to shame) blame the “offending party”. But you bring out a good point: still a type of gulf is unavoidable when the healthiest alternative is to walk away from a toxic relationship. I think we so very much want the peace of Christ to tangibly exist between us all.
    In one sense Christ has transformed the world, bringing peace (the herald of the Angels at Christ’s birth) and in another sense the world is still being transformed. It shall be realized in the age to come. This I think is the substance of our faith, that Christ has already penetrated that gulf (which still exists and ever will in our heart if we persist in taking and holding on to offense rather than to forgive). Or to put another way, forgiveness/mercy (the message of The Cross) is the very act that overpowers (transcends) that gulf. That we be mindful of this truth, even in the midst of broken relationships, I think is the only way bear the suffering, with Christ, of this present age. To me, this is entering into Hades which is in the depth of our heart. In great irony, it is also the path to true joy.

    It is hard…and I can somewhat relate to your lament. Very recently I have had to walk away from a toxic relationship myself. The very real “gulf” left me feeling helpless in any type of reconciliation. Where you say ” it might mean you’ve got to stay away and you’re not the only one making choices” is exactly right. Thank you for that reflection, Janine.
    In moving toward peace, we still live in tension. The warfare is very real. And our only hope is to give ourselves to the One who, having conquered, carries us through. In heartfelt prayer, ever seeking and knocking, we cry out to Jesus for mercy and that ever longed-for rest.

    One last thing. So that I may not forget the real meaning of the parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus, I found one of Father’s posts and placed it in my bookmarks. Here it is, if it may help:
    https://glory2godforallthings.com/2013/11/14/the-geography-of-heaven-and-hell-2/

    Again, thank you. And Father, as always…

  23. Christopher Avatar
    Christopher

    Father,

    The parable is preceded by Luke 16:14 and even Luke 15:1. Would you say that the parable is a kind of Jewish hyperbole – and a moral one at that? On the other hand, I can’t help but think you end up (in this and your essay Paula AZ links) into a kind of anti-physicality. We are creatures after all, limited in space and time. I live in “a place”, which naturally excludes other places. Christ himself assures us that the Resurrection is a physical one, and not merely a “spiritual” one. Does not the point of the Parable rest on these “physical” truths? In your essay you speak of how the faith belongs not to geography but “relational dynamics”, and you say ” ….How that love is experienced is the matter in doubt. It is wrong, I think, to describe this as mere subjectivity, for subjectivity and objectivity belong to this world and not to that one.”

    What do you mean by this? I want to ask you a technical question like “What is your backgound ontology for saying that there is no subjective/objective distinction in the Eschaton?” but I don’t think I am understanding what you are saying here in context.

  24. Paula AZ Avatar
    Paula AZ

    Father…pardon that I respond to Christopher before you. We await your response.

    Christopher…I will give this a try. I ask for your pardon as well.
    I do not think Father means to say that there is no subjective/objective distinction in the eschaton.
    I believe the subjectivity Father speaks of is man’s propensity to identify “things” (including persons, places) in a personal way according to his idea, and his only, of who/what “things” are and why they exist. Objectivity: to assess the purpose the “thing”, in terms of its benefit or usefulness for that person, and that person only, and his surroundings, and in that assessment comes its identity.
    In the link I provided above, as I read it, a realistic perception, both subjective and objective, is to identify “things” as through the eyes, or the mind (as St Paul says) of Christ, “God Himself”:
    ” If there is a “rule” of any sort – it is God Himself – it is Personal – and is defined only by mercy, love and kindness.” A few lines later: ” if you want to know how things work – then you have to know the heart of God. You have to know God Himself.” He is the basis of our identification of things, whether they be subjective or objective.
    Applied to Lazarus and the Rich Man, Hades (a “thing”) is rightly defined through our union with God, or lack thereof. Torment: separation from God, a “great gulf” apart from union with God, (and yes, experienced personally) which is a fraction of our true selves as created . So Father is not saying the eschaton lacks physicality, or sub/ob-jectivity. He is saying a physical (geographical) place of hell and another physical place of heaven is not the meaning of that parable, nor is it implied in its words.

    Now I will show you a quote from another post, where Father does use the words “subjective” and “objective”, where he explains the life of the Church in the world, which I believe is applicable to the Church in the eschaton. The only difference (a significant one) is that she will exist in her fullness. The quote:
    “The catholicity of the Church has two sides. Objectively, the catholicity of the Church denotes a unity of the Spirit. “In one Spirit were we all baptized into one body” (1 Cor. 12:13). And the Holy Spirit which is a Spirit of love and peace, not only unites isolated individuals, but also becomes in every separate soul the source of inner peace and wholeness. Subjectively, the catholicity of the Church means that the Church is a certain unity of life, a brotherhood or communion, a union of love, “a life in common.”
    https://glory2godforallthings.com/2008/10/28/florosvsky-on-the-catholicity-of-the-church/

    Again, subjectively and objectively very real. More real than the world seen to the worldly eye (who does not “see/know” God). The crucial difference is that it is based on a Personal God. It is in His existence all “things” live and have their identity. Very different from the worldly subjective and objective labeling and identification of “things”.

  25. Fr. Stephen Freeman Avatar

    Christopher,
    What I had in mind was reflecting on the resurrection of Christ (our only actual example of life in the Eschaton). Christ Body is truly physical – he eats fish in front of the disciples. They “handled” Him. On the other hand – it is somehow different – its physicality remains transcendent. They do not always recognize Him (that makes it somehow beyond “objectivity”). It cannot be viewed as an “object.” Instead, Mary Magdalen recognizes Him when He speaks her name – the disciples at Emmaus recognize Him in the breaking of bread. But it’s not just subjective – these are not mere psychological recognitions.

    So that’s why I said that objectivity and subjectivity are matters of this world and not the eschaton. Ultimately, in the eschaton, we know by participation (or some such word).

    I get the question of “anti-physicality,” but do not mean to imply it. Whatever “place” means in the eschaton – it’s somehow not what we know of “place.” Place must also have a time. The eschaton transcends time. Christ’ Body is present on every altar, regardless of its place, and the altar, as “place,” becomes something “somewhere” else (perhaps). The altar is the throne, Golgotha, etc. Neither is the altar “past” or “present”. It is “in the Kingdom.”

    That I am limited in space and time is not a function of creatureliness – we do not think of angels in precisely that manner – and they are creatures. Are space and time as we know them coterminous with the “futility” that marks all of creation. Our movement through space and time always involves decay. But there will be no decay in the Kingdom. Space and time themselves will be fulfilled – and that is beyond our ability to describe. Again, Christ is the only example that we have.

    So, that’s what I had in mind.

  26. Paula AZ Avatar
    Paula AZ

    Thanks Father. I misunderstood the question. Makes sense now…

  27. Dee of St Hermans Avatar
    Dee of St Hermans

    Father Bless
    Father Stephen, is there a distinction between “heaven” “Kingdom of God” and ‘eschaton’?

    I know that the Kingdom of God is ‘breaking’ into this reality right now, and that the eschaton will be the fullness of that ‘breaking in’ when Christ returns. And yet we do acknowledge that ‘Christ is among us’. Is it not also possible to say ‘heaven is among us’ as the angles do ‘visit’ and ‘protect’ us, and God the Father hears our prayers as we say the Lord’s Prayer.

    I note that in Revelations the words used in the NKJ is not, “time no more” but instead, “without delay”.

    I appreciate very much your words, “space and time will be fulfilled”.

    Thank you for this wonderful article and thank you all for this edifying comment stream.

  28. Fr. Stephen Freeman Avatar

    Dee,
    I understand “heaven” and “Kingdom of God” and “eschaton” to all be synonymous. The Kingdom of God (heaven) is inherently eschatological – for it is the end and fulfillment and completion of all things. Orthodox understanding (as found in the NT) sees this “end” already breaking in and already present in a certain manner. The Cup we drink is the Cup that Christ promised to drink with us at the end of all things. That meal is truly the “Last Supper.”

  29. Janine Avatar
    Janine

    Father, just to clarify (yes Paula and I are subject to being rankled and nagged!) … I have always accepted that God’s energies (or love for want of a fuller word) were one and the same, and experienced as heaven or hell (again, the words we use). Moreover, as well, that Christ (and tradition tells us also the Baptist?) went into hell (Sheol?) to bring salvation. I just wanted to clarify that my question about Lazarus and the rich man was about our prayers as analogous to the drop of water …but I guess the real question is how change happens once we are no longer in the world and in a “space” transcendent of time, and also for a heart hardened through no choice of mercy. But I accept that I may be tying myself in knots :-). Thank you once for help and patience, and to all for the comments!

  30. Fr. Stephen Freeman Avatar

    Janine,
    It is a question that moves into a very fuzzy zone in Orthodoxy. The “mechanics” of change after death are not at all clear and are handled differently by different Fathers. All seem to recognize change as possible. Some say that an individual cannot, of themselves, do anything (like repent), but can be helped (even saved) through the prayers of others. And then there are those, like St. Gregory of Nyssa, who see change (of a sort) as unending.

    St. Gregory has a way of speaking both of unending change and complete stability. But, those passages tend to make your hair hurt. 🙂

    I do not know the answer to these questions. One thing I do not do – I do not take it for granted that I can do anything “after I die.” Salvation is always “now.” “Behold, today is the day of salvation.” Language fails us.

  31. Janine Avatar
    Janine

    *thank you once again, I mean…
    I guess Lazarus isn’t analogous to we in the world anyway…

  32. Janine Avatar
    Janine

    And thank you for reply again! Once we arrive there, I guess we cannot but pray, as was the point of your article! I tend to feel the answer is somewhere in the middle, change is possible but it is after all a totally different reality. Good advice, there is only now! How many times have we been warned about that?

  33. Christopher Avatar
    Christopher

    Fr, Paula, Janine and all,

    A belated thanks for your explanations!!

  34. Karen Avatar
    Karen

    Oh, Rand! Belatedly, you made my day, too! Jeremiah 31. I’m tucking that away in that quiet pondering place in my heart, too.

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