Consent to Reality

headinsand

Catholic philosopher, Alasdair MacIntyre (After Virtue), has presented perhaps the most cogent account of our modern cultural landscape. It is not an account of how one set of ideas gave way to another set of ideas, but how a once-upon-a-time consensus gave way to our current collection of competing truth-claims and world-views. Indeed, he demonstrates (Whose Justice, Which Rationality) that our present confusion is not primarily represented by competing groups and sub-groups, but within most individuals. A person, in the course of a single argument, will likely cite any number of disparate and mutually-contradicting propositions. This is not simply the plight of the uneducated – it is a pattern that MacIntyre demonstrates occurs even in the most carefully crafted statements, such as a Supreme Court decision. This lack of consensus is perhaps the greatest hallmark of our age.

We disagree. In truth, we not only disagree about conclusions, we disagree about the facts, about how the facts are to be considered, what, indeed, constitutes a fact, what constitutes considering, and so on. We are a fragmented society whose fragmentation is becoming a major spiritual force in the lives of its people.

We do not want to disagree. Despite the fact that we do it so often, even constantly, we find it exhausting and unpleasant. This fact heightens the importance of affinity groups in our culture. We want people around us with whom we share a common vocabulary and enough general agreement that we can find rest from the constant social warfare. Of course, this does not mean that we find groups of people who have abandoned the mutually contradictory inner world of MacIntyre’s description. We rather find people who share an affinity for the same contradictions.

This situation is not normal within the span of human history. Most cultures have shared a broad consensus of the most basic assumptions about the world. A common narrative, common values, common perspective are only to be expected. Our own society is a successor to such a culture of consensus. The sacramental world of the Middle Ages in the West, is the foundation of pretty much all modern thought. It has not disappeared, but as multiple narratives and critiques began to take their place beside it, the consensus has eroded. However, none of the positions we find in our culture can be rightly understood without seeing in them an argument with what came before. Cultures are not created out of whole cloth.

The darker side of our fragmentation can be seen in the many varieties of attempts to assert some form of control. Whether it is political correctness on a college campus (or workplace), or simply trolling and bullying on social media, sheer assertion of the will is substituted for reason, conversation and persuasion. The last form of consensus that remains in a culture is the agreement that gives way to violence. The loudest, meanest, most legal, etc., assert their will over others as a means of silencing them, and in the forced silence, declare victory.

Christianity has, at certain points in time, been a form of consensus within cultures. At the healthiest of those moments, it has been a true consensus (con-sensus, a common mind). St. Paul urges us:

Now may the God of patience and comfort grant you to be like-minded toward one another, according to Christ Jesus, that you may with one mind and one mouth glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. (Rom 15:5-6)

Now I plead with you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment. (1Co 1:10)

Finally, brethren, farewell. Become complete. Be of good comfort, be of one mind, live in peace; and the God of love and peace will be with you. (2Co 13:11)

…so that whether I come and see you or am absent, I may hear of your affairs, that you stand fast in one spirit, with one mind striving together for the faith of the gospel, (Phi 1:27)

…fulfill my joy by being like-minded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind. (Phi 2:2)

Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, (Phi 2:5)

Being of “one mind” (consensus) is clearly considered normative in the life of the Church. To a fairly large extent, it has been historically true as well. The fragmentation of the modern mind (even within itself) is just that – modern. Of course, a new consensus has been suggested: that we all agree that not agreeing is normal. Stanley Hauerwas places this at the very heart of the meaning of modernity:

By modernity, I mean the project to create social orders that would make it possible for each person living in such orders “to have no story except the story they choose when they have no story.” Wilderness Wanderings, 26

 This is proving to be the most destructive aspect of the modern world. “To have a story” requires that someone else consent to the story – we do not live alone (even when we pretend that is our story). The only means of generating a consensus that has no basis other than “the story I choose,” is coercion. The social cohesion of consensus is being replaced by various versions of coerced agreement. We are angry.

This is not a game Christians can win, nor is it a game Christians should want to play. The Christian witness is not to a story we choose. Our witness is to things as they truly are. We truly were created out of nothing. We truly are sustained in our very existence by God Himself. Christ truly is God-made-man. He was truly crucified for our sake and truly rose from the dead. None of this is a story that we have chosen. It is the true story we have received (1 Cor. 15:3).

The fundamental orientation of our spiritual life is towards tradition (that which we have received). It is not towards what we choose. The world is not our own creation – it has been given to us. The reality of creation and God’s action within it is our strong argument. Even in our silence, the eloquence of that reality speaks unhindered by the false stories of our voluntary modernism. More than this, we live among fellow human beings who, regardless of false choices, are created the same as ourselves and share the same reality whether they acknowledge it or not. It is madness of a sort to live in one reality and yet seek to coerce another. God does not coerce – He woos.

The Christian faith is apocalyptic. It reveals that which is hidden. The Church is the revelation of reality (or it is nothing). To live its life is to live as a revelation of that which is. All of creation agrees with that revelation and utters its yearning “Amen.” If the Church were silent, the rocks themselves would speak their agreement.

You cannot create consensus – it is the gift of God. The Christian vocation is to receive the gift and to live in a gifted existence. This restores us to sanity and unites us with the God who is the only ground of reality – the “author of our being and our God.”

 

 

 

 

 

About Fr. Stephen Freeman

Fr. Stephen is a retired Archpriest of the Orthodox Church in America, Pastor Emeritus of St. Anne Orthodox Church in Oak Ridge, Tennessee. He is also author of Everywhere Present: Christianity in a One-Storey Universe, and Face to Face: Knowing God Beyond Our Shame, as well as the Glory to God podcast series on Ancient Faith Radio.


Comments

192 responses to “Consent to Reality”

  1. Michael Bauman Avatar
    Michael Bauman

    Structured is a better word than systematic in my previous post.

  2. Matthew Lyon Avatar
    Matthew Lyon

    Simon,
    I’m wondering why anyone would judge Orthodoxy by unknown blog commenters. Christianity is the true picture of reality, not a system or philosophy. So I can agree with you, “to hell with it” otherwise. Christianity heals the death in man. Man had conditional immortality in the Garden and he lost access through an act of the will. God has been working with humanity ever since to cure his death problem and get him back on track for theosis and inclusion in His Divine family. Christ came for this, to heal man and the cosmos. If you think it’s unfair for God to not override the will in a person and make them into a Christian – then be a Universalist. Or, be satisfied with not having epistemological certainty over the issue.

    It’s much easier to hold a belief provisionally while you work it out than to look for complete certainty over something, not find it, and have to start over with a new picture of reality all over again. Read some David Bentley Hart. He’s an avid Universalist. I disagree, but I have plenty of friends who believe in an eternal hell with fire, friends who are Universalists, annihilationists, etc. I can tolerate them all without thinking they believe in a hateful God. The thing I can’t understand though – is people who deny what a tragedy it is to be offered life and refuse it.

    For what it’s worth I believe the people most liable (and I don’t mean that in the juridical sense) are those who are Christians. They have been initiated into the New Covenant, promises and curses. The people in the world who have never heard the Gospel, they will have to face God with the knowledge they had and that’s not for me to speculate on. They do have real ignorance of Christ but they also have the light of God’s presence in the world though darkened by evil. In all of this I don’t think anyone has even mentioned Satan.

  3. Christopher Avatar
    Christopher

    “There’s a lot of things that I’ll flex on, but my conscience isn’t one of them.”

    Nor should you.

    “I’ll have to give those things some thought.”

    If you really want to give those philosophers in your head a workout, as them to work out what “uncreated” means 😉

  4. Simon Avatar
    Simon

    I refuse to worship a God where ‘eternal fire’ is in the picture. That isn’t the truth.

  5. Christopher Avatar
    Christopher

    “Christopher if you care to elaborate, I’m listening.”

    What kind of knowledge is NOT dialectical, which is to say not oppositional and based on contrast? If I think of “evil” can I think of it without *at the same time* holding in my mind its opposite, “good”?

    One of the wonderful things about our conscious is that it refuses to be trapped in opposition, dialectic, and opposition. It understands something that our discursive reasoning minds do not – that there is more to Heaven and earth than can be dreamt of in our philosophy and philosophical minds. This is why the Fathers speak of true knowledge originating in Holy Silence, and not from the philosophers in our heads who are in endless “dialogue” with each other…endlessly…forever choosing among the various…all the way to Hell.

  6. Simon Avatar
    Simon

    Our life (if it is true life) is not “caused” nor “effected” upon -we are created ex nihilo – not “caused” and thus we can not be an “effect”. God, nor the Christian life, is a “system”.

    What are you trying to say here? What’s the implication?

  7. Christopher Avatar
    Christopher

    “Read some David Bentley Hart. He’s an avid Universalist. I disagree…”

    He’s brilliant isn’t he? Who is he in dialogue with in “God, Creation, and Evil…”? Universalism is the only possible moral outcome to such a dialogue. Any other outcome would be meaningless. It is as you say, “Calvinism and Universalism are brothers”.

  8. Dean Avatar
    Dean

    Michael,
    Your heart shows through your comments. Thanks!
    As I age I depend more and more on God’s mercy and love, as seen especially in our Lord’s life, death and resurrection.
    I think this is normal as we see our own mortality loom before us, especially past the threescore and ten.
    There is a judgment, the cross of Christ, as Father has often pointed out. I take comfort in knowing that mercy triumphs over judgment…but not sure how it all will shake out, especially seeing the evil in the world, in my own heart. So, I look to Christ and know that He sees every heart of the billions. He is a good God. I can rest in that, in the peace He bestows
    to my thirsting heart.
    Age has also allowed my mind to rest more also . The things I at one time put on the back burner are now cool. The fire under them has long extinguished.

  9. Matthew Lyon Avatar
    Matthew Lyon

    Simon,
    This makes him liable to judgment, to remaining in death, to the intolerability of God’s presence.
    I take this to be a “Yes.”
    And I am DONE with Orthodoxy. If this puts me on the side of sinners…so be it.

    It can’t be a Yes because I don’t agree with your presuppositions. I don’t believe God providentially sets the ball rolling, or interacts with humans actively, in a way that determines if they are Christian. We’re not deists, atheists (ball just starts rolling on it’s own), or Calvinists. There is to much free will interaction between God, humans, angelic and demonic beings, the departed, Saints, etc. for me to believe in what you’ve described.

    And again, if man has real free will, then choosing against God will mean locking the door on the inside. You have to assume free will is non-functional to get the conclusion that God set up the program to fail for so many. This is Calvinistic. You cannot blend Calvinistic soteriology and Orthodox soteriology. I’ll recommend a book that has nothing to do with hell or atonement (although by implication it has everything to do with these): Ancestral Sin by Fr. John Romanides. Or look up his articles. When the original vision God had for Adam is clear, then what happens to free will and responsibility makes much more sense. If you start with the presupposition that man was not immortal but had conditional immortality, that he was not perfect but innocent, that the effect of the fall was the introduction of death, that God’s origial purpose for man was that he occupy a place amone the host of heaven, etc – then seeing heaven as something deserved by default to every human goes away. If the first man fell and lost life, needed restoration to his divine calling, could royally blow it through a rejection – why would it be different for other humans – especially after the coming of Christ. We have the capacity to reject Life, knowingly. We can always choose to believe lies and then work on supporting arguments to prop up the lies. We also have the capacity to embrace Him and grow into the likeness of God. When people are forgiven and come into the family of God they are given this opportunity again, to become human. But not everyone wants to become human. Some want to stay in death. Is it their fault for rejecting Christ (people who have been presented with Christ)? Whose else could it be? God’s? He didn’t do enough? Creation doesn’t speak? Conscience doesn’t speak? HIs Word is ineffectual? His Spirit too weak? This doesn’t mean the decision is easy, it’s absolutely difficult. There is a cross to bear. Christ said to deny him before men would get them denied before the Father. It’s difficult to choose Christ against conditioning, against parenting, against the school the devil has been training all of us is – but will all be forgotten because we didn’t know better? No, we choose to believe lies rather than the truth – that is the trajedy.

    So, No, I don’t believe Orthodoxy teaches what you are describing.

  10. Simon Avatar
    Simon

    Matthew, thank you, but I know where you’re coming from and that’s fine. There’s no where for this “conversation” to go.

  11. Simon Avatar
    Simon

    Matthew Lyon…you have shown me everything I needed to see. Thank you.

  12. Matthew Lyon Avatar
    Matthew Lyon

    Christopher/Simon,
    I’m much more comfortable with Open Theism (not the Process Theology type) than I am with Universalism. I may think Universalism is non-sense, but I appreciate where they are coming from. But without some explanation of how a person is supposed to be given a chance after death (non-Christians) to go through theosis – unless it is automatic as in Protestant theology and then that created all sorts of problems – I can’t understand free will and the cruciality of decision making in this life. Open Theism just removes an imaginative barrier for me – trying to think of foreknowledge and predestination – I hold it provisionally. I’m not sure how compatible it is with the Fathers. Although it is part of the larger free will tradition.

  13. Matthew Lyon Avatar
    Matthew Lyon

    Simon,
    I’ll bow out in just a second. I would ask though, I’ve been on a theological journey understanding the Orthodox view of Original versus Ancestral Sin. How familiar are you? I ask this because I tell everyone this is the main distinction between Orthodoxy and Protestants/Catholics? Just for my own information, since I’ve given this blog hours today.

  14. Christopher Avatar
    Christopher

    ‘What are you trying to say here? What’s the implication”

    What I am saying can not be said (and believe it or not, I mean that quite literally 🙂 )! The implication is God is not subject ‘to’ (He is not “a” subject, a term) or ‘of’ dialectical reasoning. He is neither “cause”, nor “effect” nor is he implicated, contained, subject to, or otherwise captured in a “system” which is just a term we use to say that cause and effect governs and explains things.

    Heavy philosophy no? Did I not just say that God is not subject to philosophy?!? Why is it when I speak about God I speak literal nonsense?!? What is it about the dialectic that is not enough? Are narratives and stories complex species and examples of dialectical reasoning, or are they more than that?

    What is the story of our lives?

  15. Christopher Avatar
    Christopher

    Matthew/Simon,

    Do you ever read science fiction? Ever heard of Chiang’s novella (about 80 pages or so if memory serves) “Story of Your Life”. They made it into a movie which I have not seen and heard was only so-so. The book is the best work on predestination I have ever read. Chiang is not a Christian as far as I can tell and explicitly his’ is a Romantic solution, but the work exceeds his limitations and speaks directly to the modern mind and the assumption of cause and effect…

  16. Fr. Stephen Freeman Avatar

    Simon, et al
    This conversation, such as it is, has spun completely out of control. I have been in meetings all day and with no time to monitor or mediate in the comments – and I think that has been problematic. Several thoughts:

    First: Penal Substitutionary Atonement is alive and well among some who profess the Orthodox faith. It is ignorance and not rooted in the fullness of the tradition of the faith. It is a false import. That, however, is a technical note. It cannot be part of the faith since it wasn’t invented until around the year 1000. Orthodoxy was a settled matter long before that.

    When thinking about what is “Orthodox,” please do not assume that surveying things on the internet is equivalent to knowing anything. Some of the best, most sophisticated looking sites, are just full of junk, driven by false agendas. I’m sitting in a hotel convention center with hundreds of priests. I would be hard put to find among them anyone confused about atonement theory. That is Orthodoxy – not the internet.

    Yes, I write on the internet. One reason I do so and have done so is to present a reliable, safe and accurate presentation of the mainstream of Orthodox thought and life.

    Second, on the matter of hell and fire, etc. The dogmatic understanding of the fire of hell is that it is immaterial (this from St. Mark of Ephesus’ responses to the Council of Florence). It is an image, a word picture to describe something that cannot be described. As such, it can easily be misunderstood and often is. Does the movement from where we are towards conformity with the image of Christ involve pain and suffering (of some sort?) – obviously, it does. But not pain and suffering of the sort that is inflicted as punishment.

    It is the purifying love of God. Now, that can be described in gross, torture, burning images and cast it into a form that is ignoble and abhorrent, or it can be understood in a better form. It is not gross, torturing, burning, in the manner that we would compare to a literal fire. It is a purifying fire. The image of fire for purifying is chosen by the Fathers because that’s how things were purified in their time. St. Gregory of Nyssa also uses the image of a rope, encrusted with mud, being drawn through a gunwale – an image of scraping. We could find other images as well. Jesus used another image with St. Peter – that of being “sifted.”

    Third: I will state again (back on the matter of “bookends”). We cannot leap to the end to say definitively what the end will be for the simple reason that we have not been told. I’m well aware of those who say otherwise – but I do not think it is correct to speak definitively in the matter. There are notable saints who have spoken about this in both manners.

    Fourth: It is not correct to say that the Orthodox faith requires anyone to believe that God tortures anyone (with fire or anything else) simply because they haven’t got it yet, or failed to understand, etc. The imagery used is the imagery we have been given. But the point of the imagery is not its mechanics – it is in its point. That point is our salvation.

    It is apparently the case that getting from here to there – from birth to theosis – involves the grace of God, working in us as a healing, transforming, scraping, purifying, etc. process. And, most importantly, that process is the love of God and is perfectly consistent with love in the fullest, kindest, most generous possible meaning.

    Lastly, and this is to Simon:
    Resist the temptation to push such conversations to the extreme point (“I’m done with Orthodoxy” etc). You’re conversing with other people, some Orthodox, some not, sometimes just folks pooling their own ignorance or best guesses. It’s inappropriate to take elements of that conversation to be “Orthodoxy.” It also makes a terrible emotional problem for them. (“My God! I got into an argument on a blog site and caused someone to abandon the faith!”) Because that’s what it is made to sound like. If you’re going to have a conversation that is actually being pressed to that length – it should be in private with your priest.

    Conversations, when they go off the rails in this manner, are damaging to other readers. It’s like listening to your parents in an argument. It’s not helpful and it scares the children.

  17. Christopher Avatar
    Christopher

    At the risk of being misunderstood as an “on the other hand” to you last post Father, your writing is not anodyne and goes to the heart of the conflict and fragmentation of the modern mind (Christian or not). As such, there is a bit of risk of being misunderstood, misinterpreted, and being said to be working against the cause. Just think how much anxiety “unmoral” prompted among your peers. If the conversations are not challenging then they might not be worth having.

  18. Dean Avatar
    Dean

    Fr. Stephen,
    When the string of comments gets obtuse and convoluted it is refreshing to see you give it a yank and the crooked becomes straight. Your last comment was just so.
    Now if there were only a D. B. Hart for Dummies!

  19. Paula AZ Avatar
    Paula AZ

    But Christopher…the conversation went a bit beyond challenging, don’t you think?! In this case Father clearly needed to moderate ‘on behalf of all’, like he said to me (I blush!) not too long ago!

    Father…may the conference be a blessing to you all!

  20. Sunny Avatar
    Sunny

    Amen! Great article.

  21. Karen Avatar
    Karen

    Thank you, Father!

    There is the anodyne that is salutary and that which perhaps is intended to be so, but falls short. 🙄 Fortunately, I find your writing has the former effect on me. Perhaps sending all comments into moderation (or suspending them) while you cannot monitor would be advisable to protect the vulnerable? Too hard to do that for the whole blog?

  22. Karen Avatar
    Karen

    I was very moved today by the Priest who spoke briefly in a segment of the OCA Diocese of the Midwest’s AAC video about losing a son to addiction, then three days after his son’s death serving the Divine Liturgy and finding himself completely upborne up by the grace of Pascha. This is the inbreaking of the Kingdom, even in the midst of our death, suffering and tragedy.

    Last week, I was visiting family in MI. I took my parents to see three of my mom’s sisters, two of whom are in hospice care. What a difference the hope of the Resurrection makes! It means Life and Love, not death, have the last word. Christ has removed the death (sin) within death, and has instead filled Hades with His own Presence (Psalm 139:7-12). Death is swallowed up in victory; it has lost its sting!

  23. Paula AZ Avatar
    Paula AZ

    Beautiful Karen…the love and beauty of God in His people…so full of Grace.
    So glad you shared these precious moments. A welcome balm. Thank you.

  24. Simon Avatar
    Simon

    Back to the oroginal topic…Im of the opinion that consensus is dangerous. Once everyone decides or concedes to what the story is then the story, regardless of whether or not it true or even helpful, becomes dogma. Dogma over time will gain all the psychological certainty of a fact. The facts over time will become the Truth. At this point the story and the story tellers will gain all the authority of infallibility. At this point anyone who challenges the story is challenging an infallible truth. In my understanding what we need is not consensus, but wisdom and intelligence. Even within our own minds we need to be able to be adversarial to our own story in order for us to grow. We need the ability to experience dissonance within ourselves without experiencing a crisis.

  25. Margaret Avatar
    Margaret

    Dear Fr. Stephen, thank you for your comments here containing your 4 “thoughts”, as well as your advice here:
    “Conversations, when they go off the rails in this manner, are damaging to other readers. It’s like listening to your parents in an argument. It’s not helpful and it scares the children.”
    This is the reason I usually just scan through the comments section attached to your blog posts and read only your comments.
    Of course in coming online to write this comment, I saw Simon’s most recent comment and so it goes…to me proving the truth of your comment I have quoted above.
    God bless all you do, Fr. Stephen, and thank you for this blog! Lord have mercy on us all as we draw near to Him, the Lover of Mankind.

  26. Fr. Stephen Freeman Avatar

    Simon,
    What you’re describing would be a merely human consent or common mind. That would be dangerous and cult like. I’m describing something quite different that is only by grace. My point is to speak of Reality as something that is received from God as gift and not something we create for ourselves. It is synonymous with receiving the Kingdom. A mere human imitation of this in the manner of the cults is almost demonic in its oppression.

  27. Karen Avatar
    Karen

    Simon, the consensus you describe is actually the opposite to that which is consent to reality. It sounds like the coerced consensus to falsehood that so characterizes the human project. Consensus which derives from the experience of Christ is like that which derives from the experience of gravity. There is pretty much a unanimous consensus that if one steps off a cliff sans parachute one will fall, etc. Is that consensus dangerous? Obviously not.

  28. Simon Avatar
    Simon

    I understood the Story that Fr was describing to be the story given to us by the Church. Is that not right?

  29. Fr. Stephen Freeman Avatar

    I mean by the Story, that which God is truly doing. At its best, the Church bears witness to it. It cannot impose it. The Story itself is ever correcting the Church and this is effective on as we attend in true repentance. But again it cannot be imposed.

  30. Paula AZ Avatar
    Paula AZ

    Margaret,
    Pity you choose not to listen to our voices…even as broken as we are. By choosing to do that you miss out on seeing how “good” comes about through our failures. There is a lot of pain here…and a lot of love. It hurts to hear you say you scan through the comments and only read Father’s. It can be another cause of shame…the shame that many here find unbearable in the first place. I’ve heard you say the same thing before, Margaret. This time I respond to you. Forgive us. I am sorry our pouring out our hearts is hard for you to hear. A while back Father said when we read comments that contain a lot of anger and even lashing out, it is really a deep pain from the soul that is speaking…I think he said ‘agony’. That was very helpful for me. It reminds me to look past our words for the sake of compassion, for words can not express the agony. Only groans can. We try hard to bear each others burdens. We fail sometimes. But to ignore another person is the ultimate rejection. It says ‘you are not important…to me you don’t even exist’. So instead of doing that, we respond and embrace…as hard as that is, we do it. I am not asking you to read the comments. I’m just telling you how I hear what you are saying. Father said himself that it is the comments that make the blog, although too, the blog would be the same without Fr. Stephen. It is a picture of unity.
    I came across this verse this morning, Margaret…
    ” “Behold how good and how pleasant it is for brethren to dwell together in unity” (Ps 133:1)”
    Forgive me…I just had to respond. We are real people, living souls, here behind the computer screen. Sometimes, for all of us, this is easy to ignore….

  31. Karen Avatar
    Karen

    Paula,

    I have been blessed by many commenters at this site, but I also respect readers like Margaret, who prefer to avoid comments. There is great wisdom in that. Not all conversations edify all people, and I don’t think any of us should take that too personally—especially in the Internet age. My 2 cents…

  32. Simon Avatar
    Simon

    I think Paula makes a good point. Not commenting is one thing, not reading other comments is another. A person is free to do both, but its like watching a movie where you strictly only pay attention to the lead character as if subtracting away the cast of characters doesnt diminish the lead. Some people just want a sage on the stage.

  33. Paula AZ Avatar
    Paula AZ

    Ok Karen…never thought of it that way. I do take it personally…I don’t know how not to. This is a personal place. I have difficulty seeing people in the context of the internet. I see people. I also do not disrespect Margaret herself. I did say I did not expect her to read the comments, but as one who does not read the comments, she surely knows we do. Words have an impact Karen. That’s all I’m saying.

  34. Fr. Stephen Freeman Avatar

    There are no rules for reading. There are a few ground rules for commenting. What I would advise anyone is to take care of themselves. That will mean different things for different people. There are times I would like not to read the comments. However… pray for each other.

    Remember me in your prayers today. I’m having lower back problems and have a seven hour drive ahead. But there’s a chiropractor at the end of the journey!

  35. Margaret Avatar
    Margaret

    Your are in my prayers for good health and no pain, Fr. Stephen! Please forgive my comments. Do understand that nothing anyone has said has changed my mind. I fall into being very judgmental of others through reading their comments. So it is easier for me to read the author of the blog’s comments, because he is a priest, and to pray for my thoughts. I am very aware that Our Lord has said that I will be judged in the manner which I judge others. Again, please forgive me and please understand that I have no intention of commenting further or engaging in conversation here in this comments section. Lord have Mercy

  36. Paula AZ Avatar
    Paula AZ

    Our prayers Father…
    and thank you.

  37. Dean Avatar
    Dean

    I read that scores of Greeks and tourists have died in the wildfires there. One firefighter has died in a fire near us just outside Yosemite. Pray for the children, firefighters and all others affected by these tragic fires.
    Our prayers with you Fr. Stephen as you drive.

  38. Karen Avatar
    Karen

    Margaret, thanks for your contribution here, too. It is as Father says, we each need to take care of our own souls, as we read, in light of our own infirmities and temptations (which are legion for us all). I make it my goal to comment only when I think it can benefit another reader and always trying not to put any obstacle in another’s path toward Christ. Many times I fail in that. We all need forgiveness for many things. May we find grace to forgive as we have been forgiven.

  39. Byron Avatar
    Byron

    The Holy Angels Convent is also near the fires in Greece. Please remember them in your prayers as well.

    Prayers for a safe return, Father!

  40. Drewster2000 Avatar
    Drewster2000

    Concerning reading all the comments, I think it’s worth noting that keeping up with this blogging community can be a lot of work. I would venture that at times it can amount to a part-time job in terms of effort. Sometimes I like to read the article and just reflect on that for awhile. But whenever I do that, it’s with the understanding that this will put me 30 comments behind. If I stop reading for a week, I likely have 4 solid hours of catching up to do. Not everyone has that kind of time. And some people are slow readers.

    On top of that a lot of effort has to be expended to both understand AND absorb what is being said. And of course as Karen noted, not all conversations apply equally to all readers. We are each tuned into various wavelengths. So it’s good to show grace in this matter and not take offense.

  41. Dee of St Hermans Avatar
    Dee of St Hermans

    Drewster thank you for your comments in this thread. Yours are not the only ones I have appreciated but your intial comment was particularly salient in the moment of need when I read it.

    Fr Stephen, thank you so much for this article. I had just read it this morning. And haven’t had the time to read through all the comments. I had several thoughts on how science has been co-opted by divisive polemic and as this is done, purports to report ‘valid facts’. So much depends on science literacy, that is deeply lacking in this society. But more important than that is remembering St Paul’s words you quoted:

    Now may the God of patience and comfort grant you to be like-minded toward one another, according to Christ Jesus, that you may with one mind and one mouth glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. (Rom 15:5-6)

  42. Michael Bauman Avatar
    Michael Bauman

    Hmmmmmmm. I have been reading and commenting here since 2008. I am sensing a certain contention all of a sudden that is quite different than I have experienced before. I do not think that is a good thing. As good and important as the discussions here are, I think they are best approached in a more relaxed manner. Easier to hear what we are supposed to hear that way.

  43. juliania Avatar
    juliania

    Sorry to be late to this discussion, but as I read through some comments I couldn’t help remembering the wonderful section “Of Hell and Hellfire: A Mystical Discourse” in Dostoevski’s “The Brothers Karamazov”.
    It’s a different way of looking at the problem but I’ve always found it very beautiful:

    “Fathers and teachers, I ask myself, “What is hell?” And I answer thus, “The suffering of being no longer able to love.” Once in infinite existence, measured neither by time nor by space, a certain spiritual being, through his appearance on earth, was granted the ability to say to himself: “I am and I love.” Once, once only, he was given a moment of active, living love, and for that he was given earthly life with its times and seasons. And what then? This fortunate being rejected the invaluable gift, did not value it, did not love it, looked upon it with scorn, and was left unmoved by it…”

    The passage goes on, but the sense of it in those first words has stayed with me, and the Pevear note accords the passage to homilies of Saint Isaac the Syrian.

    Then, with respect to Christ’s request to his Father for forgiveness of persons unnamed, on the Cross, my simple understanding of that is that even at such a moment his thoughts are in harmony with the prayer he gave us – “Forgive us…as we forgive those…” so I think the question of repentance doesn’t even come into it. Forgiveness has to be wholehearted on the part of both God and man, and we can’t ask His forgiveness if we haven’t fully forgiven others, whether they repent or not. And there, on the Cross, it is between Our Lord and his Father to whom the forgiveness he is asking for applies. It is that intimate a request, harmony in the face of death itself.

    Just my thoughts on the matter.

  44. Dee of St Hermans Avatar
    Dee of St Hermans

    Julianna,
    Thank you, for that passage and your reflection. I particularly appreciate your description of the intimacy of forgiveness. –very beautiful.

    Michael, on reflection about the contentiousness here. I’ve been reading this blog only since 2015. It took awhile for me to first write, out of fears of presenting a ‘contentious’ description of how Christ first found me. I’ve been grateful for the reception I have received here, including your own encouragement. I offer some reflections via a link, presented by Fr Thomas Hopko, on the contentious issue of homosexuality and the Orthodox faith. What I love most is his insistence that we remember our humanity and all that the word ‘humanity’ can mean in Christianity. In particular, you might enjoy the humorous story about Orthodox villagers fighting amongst themselves. The story begins somewhere about 13-14 minutes into the talk.

    Here is the link:
    http://www.ancientfaith.com/specials/hopko_lectures/theological_vision_orthodox_christian_faith_and_human_sexuality1

  45. Christopher Avatar
    Christopher

    Dee,

    Yes, science misunderstood as an “ism” is definitely one of the many minds.

    Dino,

    Starting with trusting God, and then reasoning about suffering is what the fragmented mind cannot do…

  46. Agata Avatar
    Agata

    Michael,
    Thank you for your comment. I have not been reading the blog for as long as you, but have been blessed greatly ever since I started… I think I even once commented on what a wonderful place this is to learn how to deal with ‘contentious’ confrontations in my own life, as Father Stephen models that skill so well (I think it was during some rather personal attacks on Father).
    And the rest of you, the wonderful commenters came to mind for that very same reason immediately – you, Dino, Dean, Drew [to stay with Ds only 🙂 ].

    So I too am saddened. There was a beautiful comment from Dino this morning that I read on my phone, but now it is gone. It contained his personal witness to how trust in God can be modeled under the most tragic circumstances… Yes, there was depth in that beyond what most of us will ever be capable of.. To know someone like that, even through comments on the blog, is a privilege and a blessing… Most of us cannot understand and relate to it because of our lack of Faith and depth.. But we can try to learn if we have a teacher.
    May God grant that depth to all of us.. Time is shorter than we think to get honest with God…

  47. Agata Avatar
    Agata

    Dee, sorry I forgot you in my “D list”… 🙂
    You definitely belong there…

  48. David Waite Avatar
    David Waite

    I have been following this blog for so long that I can remember when it was surprising to see more than ten comments following a post. I try not to comment too often, because I do not think I have much to add that would be useful to anyone. But I am commenting now (second time today!) to join in with what Michael said. Things have a gotten a little contentious around here and I think that distracts from the discussion. Father said that he has not been able to moderate the comments recently, because he has been in a conference. It saddens me to think that he should even need to moderate the comments. We are all seem to be striving towards a greater understanding and love of God. We are all good people. Why should our comments have to be moderated? My solution has often been to be like Margaret and moderate the comments myself. The Holy Spirit and my guardian angel will sometimes help me see that a particular thread is helping me in my journey towards Theosis and I will just skip over that discussion. I am also sympathetic to Drewster’s situation. Frankly, I do not have time to read all the comments, although I always read the posts.
    I am not driving towards any particular point here. Just thinking out loud and sharing my thoughts with my friends.
    There are two more things I want to say, however.
    The first is that I pray that we continue to love and trust each other. Trust that the other commentator is sharing in good faith, to help and encourage you in your growth in the faith by sharing their own knowledge, hope and experience.
    The second is, please, just take what you like and leave the rest. It’s ok. We are all lost, but I believe we will all get there, by the grace and love of our Lord Jesus Christ, together.

  49. David Waite Avatar
    David Waite

    “that a particular thread is NOT helping me”

    Dang. Sorry.

  50. Dee of St Hermans Avatar
    Dee of St Hermans

    Agata,
    It’s kind of you to mention me on your “D” list. I’m always grateful to be helpful to someone. But I know that sometimes I am not. When this happens that I’m not contributing helpfully, Fr Stephen has on occasion removed or edited my comments, for which I am very grateful for that, as well. This is his blog and he’s the mediator and I have the utmost respect for his decisions for what stays and what is removed. This trust in his decisions and willingness to moderate is what helps me to venture to say what is sometimes difficult, knowing that if I go too far out of bounds, he will bring me back in, which I actually take to be a loving gesture.

  51. Aust_Orthodox Avatar
    Aust_Orthodox

    I don’t know what heaven and hell are exactly or how the judgements of a God who created the universe and everything in it will be towards me ,God will do what He wants wether it seems right or wrong to me . All I know is I’m still just trying to love my neighbour as myself and honestly failing at that everyday, Maybe if I ever sort that out I can move onto these more complex issues .

  52. Esmée La Fleur Avatar

    The way that I came to Christ and Orthodox Christianity was through the book The Mountain of Silence by Kyriacos Markides. In this wonderful book, the author discusses Saint Seraphim of Sarov. Reading about him (and other modern day saints) in this book was an “a-ha” moment of the great proportions for me. I realized that Christianity was not some man made religious movement from the past that had no relevance to the modern world, but the Way and Truth and Life that was very much alive and well, as evidenced by the lives of contemporary men and women who had given themselves wholly and completely to Christ. Reading about the lives of these remarkable individuals, especially Saint Seraphim, who so beautifully defined the purpose of the Christian life as the acquisition of the Holy Spirit, is what convinced me personally of the Reality of Christ and Orthodoxy. There were lots of things that, as a very modern rational person, I was unable to understand and accept about Orthodox teachings, but I finally decided to simply set my questions aside and trust that if these saints achieved what they achieved through the Orthodox Church, and that what they achieved was something I very much wanted for myself, then I must proceed on faith that they know something I don’t know. This pretty much eliminated all my angst and stress about the stuff I did not comprehend. These saints are shining lights of God’s love and that is all I really need to know or care about. They have forged the path of how to get there. All I need to do is try to emulate them.

  53. Dino Avatar
    Dino

    I think that my earlier comment was moderated and had to be deleted because parts of it initiated a conversation that was potentially hot-blooded.
    I cannot currently follow everything here well…
    However, I would like to add the key point based on the response we are receiving as the victims of the fires in Greece since we were in the worst of it with our neighbours now in heaven.
    The ‘response’ that I take some issue with – which I connected to the earlier hot-blooded [in the comments] response to the infinitely more important theme of Hell– and which I mainly have seen, is of a dramatized, emotionally charged and highly expressive of angst (and even protest to the ‘powers that be’ for many, or towards ‘God’ for some.)
    I believe this to be deeply modern, secular, western and not at all traditional Orthodox.
    The response of the Orthodox tradition and of the holy faithful of it (the very very few) has been much more tempered, accepting of the naturalness of all such tribulation as earthquakes, floods, fires, wars, deaths, destruction, firmly planted in trust in God’s providence, as well as faith in that we can always demonstrate some goodness in all such difficulties, healthiness, balance, calmness, acceptance and Christian fearlessness even when burned, with devastated property and no worldly prospects in the secular perception of things. God’s Kingdom, His love, and a continuous effort to remain in that optimism even when ‘crucified’ in the eyes of others, is not even a ‘big deal’ as they say, it’s just what people would do traditionally, but our modern plastic life is utterly dissonant with and would rather argue against.
    This is also the best foundation for considering the infinitely more important theme of hell and I deeply appreciated Father Stephen’s earlier comment saying the same thing from a different angle and urging to avoid expressions that press emotionally in their (understandable of course) protest.

  54. Dino Avatar
    Dino

    So the key point I want to make is that
    I think this “protest” against God is a continuous danger for man. There are siruations that can work as catalysts for this type of spirit of anguished protest and if we give in, we will become sucked into a hell of demonic pain. It is the seat of the devil, his love, and what he presses us towards most vehemently when given such a chance. The story of Job is all about that…..
    We are surrounded by similar predicaments to Job here and that “protesting” stance ( which we encounter too) is of no help at all. The”old school” Greek (somewhat stoic) stance is the only one that helps. It isnt a lack of empathy but a resolute belief that God makes no mistakes even when I suffer what Job suffered.

  55. David Kontur Avatar
    David Kontur

    Father Stephen –
    I am currently in Washington, D.C., for the University of Maryland’s Summer Institutute. This is a conference on developing more integrated approaches to working with persons suffering from addictions, mental illness, and behavioral health issues. One thing that I was very encouraged about is to see that across the country Peer Supports are being recognized by the “system” as a critical part of recovery. What I was discouraged about was the number of times over 3 days that I have heard about how it is our job to “change the world.” Change the world for the good…. Change the world with technology…. Change the world (fill in the blank)….

    Please know that I am not disparaging anyone, but your blog postings have very much sensitized me to how pervasive this mindset is and how entrenched we all are in it. I am so grateful for your reflections and how you have really challenged all of us to at least be more aware of this. I have to honestly say that I do not see how any of us can totally separate ourselves from this mindset, at least not without turning evermore toward Christ, the only source of true transformation. Anything else, ultimately seems like an exercise in continuously re-arranging the deck on the Titantic.

    Thank you again for the time that you put into this blog and sharing your faith with all of us.

  56. Michael Bauman Avatar
    Michael Bauman

    Dino, your comments lead me to the possibility that we are much more familiar with hell than we typically think. Is not this world described as “a fortaste of hell”?

    The minute tastes of God’s Kingdom that I have been graced with indicates to me how overwhelmingly different it is than this world. I really have no cognates to describe it nor even sometimes the capacity to know exactly what happened. Yet it has a substance and reality that nothing in “the real world” can approach. That is the effect of the Incarnation perhaps.

    Hell though I feel I can much more easily understand. The darkness, pain and despair of such a place is magnitudes more than I have known and the unquencable anger and lust barely imaginable, but it seems to have a lot in common with what I deal with on a daily basis. Constantly impinging but somehow strangely insubstantial.

    Only God can transform the rebellion (protest) of my spirit that is the gateway to Hell.

    It is that rebellion that is the spirit of this world and IMO is the essence of Hell.

    Can my will to rebellion be so perverse and entrenched that I would never allow God’s mercy to penetrate-ever. I pray not, but it is not impossible for me to imagine such a state.

    So easy to “curse God and die” is it not? The only alternative is to discipline myself to find concrete, real things for which to give thanks to God even in the depths of pain.

    Don’t want Hell? – lift all things up to God in thanksgiving or failing that, endure with hope and patience.

  57. Michael Bauman Avatar
    Michael Bauman

    But there is Ressurection inherent in every death.

  58. Michael Bauman Avatar
    Michael Bauman

    Still, as we should, we weep and wail at the destruction wrought by our rebellion.

  59. Dee of St Hermans Avatar
    Dee of St Hermans

    Dino,
    My prayers are with you and your family and neighbors. This fire is a terrible tragedy. We have had severe fires on this continent as well. And I pray that you and your community receives support and help to recover with God’s grace.

    With the grace of God I urge us all not to be presumptuous regarding Fr Stephen’s rationale for his moderation decisions. I think it is important to realize we participate to the support and help of us all. Sometimes our emotional personal circumstances can blind us regarding how we might ‘sound’ to others. This is why I urge each one of us to consider it is a blessing that Fr Stephen moderates our comments. Even when they are our own.

  60. Dean Avatar
    Dean

    Michael,
    Yes, Michael. We are surrounded in this world by much darkness. But there is much love, hope- -hints everywhere of resurrection. Children are often like little flowers. In Home Depot the other day I smiled at a little girl, perhaps not even two. She was in a store cart sucking a lollipop, she being pushed by mom. When I smiled, she took the candy from her mouth, smiled at me and gave me a little wave. But, her two tiny reactions to me made my day. I experience love, forgiveness, acceptance everyday in prayer. I experience the same in each liturgy. A new bloom on flowers in the garden, the orange glow of the moon going down just now in the western sky, the greeting smile and kiss hello of my wife in the morning, all are freely gifted signs of life and beauty, if you will– of resurrection. Glory to God!

  61. Fr. Stephen Freeman Avatar

    Michael, Dino, et al
    The cry of rebellion is one thing – a cry of pain is another. I think that it is largely a cry of pain that we hear, including in the sometimes heated discussions. I do not think it useful to characterize the cry of pain as not Orthodox or anything else – only as pain. Pain needs respect, comfort, reassurance, etc.

    As to hell – we undoubtedly are already there. The Icon of Christ’s Nativity (and the depiction of the cave) would indicate that “this world” is indeed “hell” of a sort. St. John reminds us, “For we know that the whole world lies under the sway of the evil one” 1Jn 5:19. I know very little at all about things beyond death (“the geography of hell”). These are what I do know:
    1. The Christ who entered our world and conquered death is the same everywhere and always. His compassion and mercy demonstrated ceaselessly among us is His character – it will not change. This same Christ was merciful even to the demons (He allowed them to go into the pigs when they begged Him).
    2. We have parables from Christ that are certainly provocative – seeking to wake us up and provoke us to enter the Kingdom. I cannot, however, imagine the Christ whom we know saying about someone, “Tie him up! Cast him into outer darkness!” etc. People seem to have a confusion and take parables as examples of Jesus’ character. They are not. The Cross is the ultimate revelation of who Jesus is.
    3. There are speculations on the part of many, including saints, that suggest various things about the afterlife. Can we still repent? Is there any change or healing? etc. I take this to be a distraction. What I know is that I am commanded to offer the Bloodless Sacrifice “on behalf of all and for all.” And that is what I do. It is why I hope and hope cheerfully.
    4. Living with a bit of ignorance is part of being a child – of being innocent. What I don’t know (and probably cannot know) has its own reasons. But we have enough to live, to thrive, to be joyful, to be hopeful above all things, and to give thanks always and everywhere. “Lo if I descend into Hell, Thou art there!” And so, like Jonah in the belly of the whale, we should sing of God’s mercy and rejoice, until this rough beast coughs us up on the shores of paradise!

  62. Fr. Stephen Freeman Avatar

    Dino,
    My prayers for all who have been suffering with the fires in Greece. It is a long-suffering nation. God give you grace!

  63. Dean Avatar
    Dean

    Dino,
    I don’t know if you saw my comment to you yesterday or not. My prayers are also with you and family. They will continue. You mention Job. Job said,
    ” (God), though you slay me, yet will I trust in Thee.” I see that trust in you, even as you went through a hellish experience with your family.

  64. Michael Bauman Avatar
    Michael Bauman

    Father, good reminder yet in my in soul the worst pain is seated in my rebellion and only tears can bring surcease of sorrow. Strangely perhaps, it is when I cry the most that the Joy of Christ is most present.

  65. Michael Bauman Avatar
    Michael Bauman

    Also, the comments suggest that I was looking at the foretaste of hell in which we live with despair. Not the case although it is easy to go that route, that is the hope of the evil one.

  66. victoria Avatar
    victoria

    Dino

    Our prayers are with Greece and you and anyone in your family or friends affected in any way by the fires. It’s very tragic and that so many could not escape… that has been the hardest to bear. We have wildfires in the states every year but I can not recall a time when I have heard of so many lives lost – property damage is nothing.

  67. Fr. Stephen Freeman Avatar

    A year or so back we endured fires in Gatlinburg, TN, which is nearby. Some of our parishioners lost everything. There were lives lost (not in my parish) as well. The authorities were caught off-guard and unprepared for an unusual situation with high winds that moved extremely fast. Falling trees blocked escape routes for some. It has left an indelible mark in our memories and a particular concern for others battling fires.

  68. Esmée La Fleur Avatar

    We went through horrible fires here in Santa Rosa last year which took a record number of lives. There are currently horrible fires occuring in ither parts of Northern California as we speak. The thing I remember most about the fires here last year is not the destruction, but the way that people came together to help one another. Sometimes it takes tragedies like this to remind us all of our true humanity.

  69. Esmée La Fleur Avatar

    Simon – the Orthodox Church does not teach that God is only present in the Orthodox Church. At every Liturgy, we affirm that “God is everywhere present and fillest all things.”

  70. juliania Avatar
    juliania

    Thanks for your response, Dee of Saint Hermans. It was the intimacy of the Forgiveness ceremony before Lent that drew me into Orthodoxy. It was the first time I had knelt and bowed down to the ground in church, and as Father says, that motion unexpectedly and amazedly returned me to the perspective of a child, warmth and love permeating that simple activity in an unforgettable lovingkindness.

    I think Father is correct about speculation as well. I loved Father Zossima’s directive that our short moment in the world is precious in terms of being an opportunity not to be wasted – the sort of opportunity that doesn’t ask us to achieve enormous ascetic endeavors, but to love. That is certainly a speculative thought, yet it is attainable.
    And it struck me because I was just then learning about Orthodoxy as well; the novel helped me with many aspects of this.

  71. Christopher Avatar
    Christopher

    Dino & Michael,

    Thanks for your posts yesterday. Michaels yours in particular reminded of valley of sorrow in my soul, the river of darkness in my blood (thinking of Emmylou’s “prayer in open D”, and of course Psalm 50). Once you move past the pain (i.e. you find a way to suffer it) and the initial rebellion, it’s truth and our hope becomes evident – at least it does to me.

    Dino, I wonder though if this spirit of rebellion is not rooted in an initial truth – that of our “energy” (God given). It gives us the fight/spirit to suffer a bit and when rightly directed to turn from the Devil toward God?

  72. Karen Avatar
    Karen

    But we have enough to live, to thrive, to be joyful, to be hopeful above all things, and to give thanks always and everywhere. “Lo if I descend into Hell, Thou art there!” And so, like Jonah in the belly of the whale, we should sing of God’s mercy and rejoice, until this rough beast coughs us up on the shores of paradise!

    ❤️!

  73. Dino Avatar
    Dino

    Christopher and all
    I very much appreciate your prayers and thank you deeply.
    As to your point I think there’s a cry of rebellion in Job’s shoes that is secular and beloved to the Adversary and a “cry of rebellion” that is utterly different and is not really rebellion. This last one is the Holy Spirit praying inside a God-trusting soul with pain for all and in solidarity with all -as one- interceeding in the image of Christ to forgive all “for they know not”.
    The human impetus is there like anger and desire which can be directed sinfully or Spiritually. Father correct me if I am wrong…

  74. Simon Avatar
    Simon

    I think its interesting that Job’s rebellion was “beloved of the Adversary” and yet God said to Job’s false comforters “you have not spoken truthfully of me as my servant Job has.” And then God has Job make sacrifices in their behalf. Job’s protests were the protests of faith.

  75. Fr. Stephen Freeman Avatar

    Dino,
    I think a secular response would be to disregard God completely, to simply forget Him and ignore Him. The heart that is angry at God is still engaged – and may be very close to “entering the Kingdom.” When I think about the gospels, I find it interesting that we are not really given a story of someone who is angry with God.

    I generally think of anger as a “secondary” emotion. Beneath it, almost always, is a wound of shame (at least in the technical form) By that I mean a great wound that violates us, exploits our vulnerability, exposes us, and destroys our sense of communion – leaving us terribly alone. That “insult” to our being is unbearable most of the time and is quickly changed into anger or depression (sadness).

    Anger is not rebellion – it’s just anger. As to the adversary, he will use anything and everything against us. It is most important, I think, to try to not engage someone’s anger (much less use it to categorize them). The anger, being secondary, is not the truth of what is going on. Just as Christ says, “They know not what they do,” so those who are angry are not expressing what is actually their pain – and they may not be aware of the nature of the pain.

    Generally speaking, anger is useful for resisting sin (in a very, very short burst only), or even performing a heroic act. But it’s not useful for much else. Anger is meant to only be short. Any prolonged anger is harmful to us and needs some sort of attention.

    Desire, on the other hand, is extremely useful (when rightly ordered). It impels and draws us towards an end. If the end is the right end – it is essential.

    If there is a fault in the “cry of rebellion,” it is simply that it incorrectly expresses the pain beneath it (for so many reasons).

  76. Paula AZ Avatar
    Paula AZ

    “I generally think of anger as a “secondary” emotion. Beneath it, almost always, is a wound of shame (at least in the technical form) By that I mean a great wound that violates us, exploits our vulnerability, exposes us, and destroys our sense of communion – leaving us terribly alone. That “insult” to our being is unbearable most of the time and is quickly changed into anger or depression (sadness).”

    You are right on the money, Father. I know this because I live it. It’s a heck of a way to come by the truth of this. I know it is bad for me, but I isolate in protection, I take the anger out on myself terribly, and it sure does cause a depression. These are periods that wax and wane. I cover it up to a certain extent in public…but its always there. I say to a certain extent because obviously this blog is very much public and I am exposing, not covering up, my shame here. You commented on this once, when I was spilling my guts here. Another commenter took offense at my ‘exposure’ and your reply was it was a way to deal with the shame.
    One of the results of all this is that I go out of my way to stick up for the “underdog”…the outcasts, and those who are despised. I understand that cry of anger. It is nothing but pain, even when that cry is provoking and harsh. I know this very well.
    I thank you again and again, Father. Your words give validation and hope…your ministry is blessed of God. Glory to Jesus Christ.

  77. Matthew Lyon Avatar
    Matthew Lyon

    I will never forget a business road trip I had to make with a fellow employee who was an atheist. I don’t know how I sparked the conversation about God – I know it wasn’t with eternal hell fire – but we’re driving down the road going 70 in a compact car and he starts punching the windshield screaming profanities at God swerving all over the road. It was pretty scary. His mother had lost a battle with cancer. But his view of Providence made God to blame for everything that had happened. All the while he said he was an atheist. I didn’t venture to correct this contradiction. But if someone carries around a view of Providence where God is responsible for everything good and evil – I can sympathize with this moral impulse – to be repulsed by God. It is a Christian impulse I think – very misdirected and dangerous perhaps – but outrage at moral evil is only coherent if you believe in a God of love.

    The Calvinistic view of Providence is probably the predominant one in America among Christians. You win the lotto and God predetermined it from eternity past that you get a free $200. Or your next heart attack, splinter, car crash, etc. I believe this view follows from Original Sin – if you’re so bad that God must overcome your will, predestine you for salvation (or not),and if everything bad we see in this world (including Satan and the demonic) is an expression of God’s anger with humanity stemming from the Fall, then grandma’s cancer is God’s fault. Everything is “meant to be.”

    I can’t help but think that when people react towards God in hate for what they believe he determined (not to say God never determines unpleasant things for humans), that God will be gracious toward their ignorance. They don’t really hate God, they hate something imaginary.

    If people truly believed in Ancestral Sin, these problems would mostly go away. The dynamic interplay between God’s sovereignty, the angelic and demonic, the host of His counsel (including Mary and the Saints), real free-will imagers on Earth, the Trinity, etc. – it wouldn’t be so easy to blame God for everything when multitudes of free will imagers are functional for good or evil. If free will is not functional for any reason, be it Original Sin/Total Depravity, ignorance, etc – then God is back on the hook, in the dock.

    This is the reason Western churches have to deal with theodicy the way they have – they have largely or completely, removed free will from the question of why there is evil and then have the enormous difficulty of showing how God is not to blame. I say all of this a a fomer defender of Calvinism – but God was gracious towards my ignorance.

  78. Simon Avatar
    Simon

    Matthew, I mostly agree with everything you. But we are not as free as one might think. Its difficult to make sense of the idea of freedom that is so utterly in the darkness and ignorant. How free is someone born blind and deaf? They certainly have a will, but theyre ability to exercise that will is greatly diminished when compared to someone who not only has these faculties, but has experience using them. My experience and perception of humanity is that we are more like dogs abandoned and left to our own devices than children under the care of a loving heavenly father. Im so sorry, but I just dont know how to see it otherwise. But I do what I can in the hope that Im wrong.

  79. Karen Avatar
    Karen

    Simon, spot on about Job, brother!

  80. Simon Avatar
    Simon

    Karen, I like Fr.’s thought, “The heart that is angry at God is still engaged – and may be very close to “entering the Kingdom.””

  81. Agata Avatar
    Agata

    Simon,
    Why do you worry so much about the freedom of others (deaf or blind)? Just read about St. Matrona of Moscow, she was blind and could not walk all her life and she became a great and powerful Saint of God, greater than many of the Saints of the past – certainly something none of us will ever achieve (even thought we walk and hear and see). As for ignorance, people live and marinate in it.. They pretend not to know, they don’t want to know and would rather blame God for everything instead of taking some honest responsibility for themselves.

    We are only responsible for ourselves and our response to God. “What is it to you? You follow me” the Lord said to one of is disciples who had similar question… So do what you can and don’t worry about how God will deal with others. It’s His problem, not yours.

    Sorry, but it saddens me to see you say these things you often do…

  82. Christopher Avatar
    Christopher

    Matthew,

    Excellent! In so many ways you have captured the character of where so many are at with themselves and God in the modern American scene (the only one I am familiar with). Those contradictions that lead to the punching of the windshield at 70 mph, blaming God yet *morally* rejecting him, are so common as to possibly be THE defining religiosity at the moment in my opinion. Others disagree, but if it is not THE place where most are at then it is a very common one. When you mix in the cultural/secular story (a metaphysics) of the Cartesian Self and a materialistic scientism then people start to believe that being at such a place is “authentic”.

    At first I was a bit stumped at the recent popularity of Jordan Peterson among the clergy. However I think one of the reasons is that he provides an explanatory frame for the above and much of the current “religious” mind. All of this is shaped by the spirit of our times of course. I agree with Father in that I can’t think of Gospel instance of someone being angry with God. The Old Testament seems to recognize it in having Job’s wife say to Job “curse God and die!” This anger with God is tied to shame and sin in that in the sentence before she says “Do you still hold fast to your integrity?”. It is as if she is saying “Of course you have sinned and are wrong in the very manner of your life, but what else can you do as God is an impossible standard ? Be a *man* and be angry at this impossible situation, spit on God, and die”. Perhaps someone with access to the Septuagint can say more about that word “integrity”.

    All that said the modern mind and person has a different understanding of “integrity”. He or she is primarily Cartesian, so the standard (and thus meaning) of right and wrong, good and evil, brokenness and wholeness does not flow to the person from the outside (Job’s wife even understood this as did everyone in the context of Scripture) but rather the reverse such that wholeness is understood as something *selfish* – that is wholeness has to *first* originate in the self and then flow out into the world. The *genesis* of integrity and wholeness to the modern person is the self, and thus God-as-moral-actor is by definition limited to what the circumstances and limits of the self. Thus, the self is that which moraly judges God – the exact opposite of all of Scripture and for that matter most of the religions and philosophies in the history of mankind where it is God that creates and judges the self – the self only has “integrity” in reference to that which comes from the outside of the self and is its creator.

    So the modern self punches the window at 70 mph without any sense of irony. The Christian sits and sees the vanity, but can not speak to the modern mind because the modern has no perspective, no viewpoint to see himself or God outside of his own “self-story”. I can not disagree with anything specific you said Father Stephen about anger, but I have a suspicion or intuition that something is missing. It is as if anger is a state of being and essential (if selfish) genesis of relating to God for the this large group of people and you can not go around it. Rather you have to go through it. In other words there is no therapeutic sidestepping it.

  83. Simon Avatar
    Simon

    Agata, I was using the condition of physical blindness and deafness as metaphors. We say as Orthodox people that the eyes and ears before the illumination of baptism are darkened. Jesus says, “If the light that is in you is darkness how great that darkness is.” Unfortunately, physical blindness and deafness challenge our ability to know and understand the world around us and, therefore, they challenge to our ability to act freely. That is why blindness is a near universal metaphor for mental and spiritual ignorance and darkness. I am sorry to disagree, but people do NOT know God and are NOT pretending to not know God, or good from bad. In fact, I would say that unless you are God how would you ever really know what good and bad really are? I think its odd that we think that we understand so much having lived so little time here on earth with all of the confusion of ideas and despair. As for blaming God goes…I don’t think that he is as offended by ‘the blame game’ as his servants are.

    I sense a shift in tone. I must have angered some of the other readers here. I apologize and ask your forgiveness. As for blaming God…I’m sorry, but I’m not remorseful in the least.

  84. Fr. Stephen Freeman Avatar

    Simon, et al
    I do not think I’ve read a single comment that suggests that God is angered or bothered in any way about our blaming Him, or yelling at Him, etc. Thus, it’s a moot point (at least here on the blog).

    What I think I see in responses to comments that engage in that kind of thing is not a drive to protect God but two other things: a drive to protect themselves, as in, safeguarding faith against what might be a perceived slander. Or (and I think this is dominant) a concern for the heart of whoever expresses the blame, anger, etc. Efforts to reason or converse or even argue with the blame, etc., are probably well-meant efforts to help.

    Alyosha’s conversations with his brother Ivan were never intended to defend God or make a philosophical point. There was simply his concern for the pain or emptiness in his brother’s soul.

    It is a very natural reaction when someone expresses a negative feeling or thought to respond in some manner – to comfort, to urge something, etc. The natural reaction is how we respond to pain (or should respond to pain). And so, when we throw something out there of that sort, we should never be surprised that it provokes a response – either helpful or not. But, when we throw something really negative out there and think at the same time: “Hey! I’m comfortable with this, what’s your problem?” it is naive.

    This is not to say that there are not those out there who rush to protect God. I just don’t see any of that around here.

  85. Christopher Avatar
    Christopher

    ” Its difficult to make sense of the idea of freedom that is so utterly in the darkness and ignorant. How free is someone born blind and deaf? ”

    Job himself does not “see” either the final limits of his will nor it’s ultimate outcome or fruit. As you say, his is the cry of Faith and not rebellion. Faith is not “darkness and ignorance” and can not come from it, so however the will is limited it can not be reduced to the nothingness that is correctly termed “darkness and ignorance”. So while Job rightly exercised his will (and all the other attributes that make up his Person) and his friends did not, Job and everything he is (i.e. his will, his understanding, his love, and his faith) in the end “repent(s) in dust and ashes” in the face of Him and His uncircumscribable Will.

    Also, ever read Helen Keller’s autobiography? She was literally born blind and deaf yet her will and her whole life just does not seem to be rightly described as a total darkness.

    Whatever the limits of human will, there is “space” for it to fulfill its purpose. Radial examples that seem to contradict this are at best the exceptions that prove the rule, and are probably not even exceptions…

  86. Dino Avatar
    Dino

    I often come back to the almost simplistic expression that, in a very real sense, ‘at the end of the day’, it matters very little what ‘cards we have been dealt’ (whether we are blind, rich, Samoan or test-tubed etc) but how we “dealt with them” (the direction upon which we mainly directed our energies during our earthly sojourn). Forgetting this, waters many more rebellious weeds in one’s heart, remembering it aids the [scandalous to secular thinking] acceptance and stoic humility that is so admirable when witnessed in the saints.

  87. Michael Bauman Avatar
    Michael Bauman

    Father, am I wrong to think that if I start trying to defend God that is a dangerous place to be. In a certain sense it would put me greater than God would it not? At the very least it is a precursor to a useless and hurtful argument.

    God is, I am contingent. My experience has been that He reveals Himself to the extent that I can bear it when I demonstrate some humility and look nowhere else for my help.

    It has literally been in tears of fear, grief and repentance that such has occurred for me by His grace. I do not even have to defend my own perception. It just is. That gives me hope.

  88. Fr. Stephen Freeman Avatar

    Michael,
    Indeed. He hasn’t defended Himself…

  89. David Waite Avatar
    David Waite

    Dino (and Dee).

    Dino, you said, “I often come back to the almost simplistic expression that, in a very real sense, ‘at the end of the day’, it matters very little what ‘cards we have been dealt’ (whether we are blind, rich, Samoan or test-tubed etc) but how we “dealt with them”

    That is the very point Fr. Hopko makes in
    http://www.ancientfaith.com/specials/hopko_lectures/theological_vision_orthodox_christian_faith_and_human_sexuality1

    Thank you, Dee!

  90. Sue Avatar
    Sue

    Hello, I am an occasional reader here, and I wanted thank you for this post, Fr. Stephen. I read it to my young adult children this morning at breakfast, and all of us appreciated your thoughts and enjoyed a good discussion that left us uplifted and encouraged.

    I was so impressed with this post that I decided to read the comments, too–all 189 of them! They left me with a lot to ponder. One of the commenters (Stephen Griswold) stated that the Roman Catholic doctrine of Original Sin is heretical. What is the Roman Catholic doctrine of Original Sin?

  91. Sasha Avatar
    Sasha

    @Simon
    This is a very late response, and I’m not sire whether it will even be read, but…
    “Mercy requires hell to not exist
    Putting people in hell who are spiritually blind makes as much sense as punishing a blind man in jail for losing at yard darts.”
    Saint Silouan said that love cannot bear that anyone will be tormented in hell. That if you can rejoice in the idea that anyone (unrepentant sinners, atheists, etc) will be in hell, you have not yet learned to love your brothers. I’m sorry, I don’t have the them exact quote in front of me, but I would highly recommend reading “St Silouan the Athonite” by Archimandrite Sophrony if this is still an issue that is weighing on your mind. We should pray for them all: all the people who don’t know God, or who hate Him. Jesus offered a prayer for forgiveness in his torment. How much easier should it be for us, who are not being tortured or crucified, to pray for them that lack understanding?

  92. Matthew Avatar
    Matthew

    Thank you Father. I find your words, though written years ago, very encouraging today.

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