Talking to Fish

I have sleep apnea. When I fall asleep, I stop breathing at certain points. According to the sleep study I endured, it happens over 90 times an hour. Sleep apnea can kill you. And so, I sleep with a “sleep machine,” a device with a mask through which a positive air pressure is maintained so that you don’t stop breathing. It was a godsend. When I visited Mt. Athos last year, one of the more difficult practicalities was the need for my machine wherever I went. I bought a portable one, capable of being hauled around in a backpack. It was only an issue one night when the monastery of St. Panteleimon shut down the electricity when it was time for “lights out.” Go to bed. Don’t breathe. My wife has the same problem. I laugh because at night we strap on our sleep masks and lie there like pilot and co-pilot.

This little vignette of my medical life is my way of illustrating a certain scenario. What happens when we can only live our lives through the wonders of a medical intervention? For some, it might be as difficult as kidney dialysis, or as inconvenient as insulin shots. Life is altered, but it continues. I am deeply grateful for medical intervention, both for my night’s sleep, my lack of a gall bladder, and the stent that keeps my heart functioning (getting old!). But what happens when an entire society and culture is predicated on medical intervention, when what becomes “natural,” is, in fact, artificial? I would never want to suggest to anyone that my apnea should become normative.

I can imagine this same scenario if human life were spread to other planets. Mars, that likeliest of candidates, is bathed in deadly radiation. It would become a cancer camp in short order. So, human beings would rarely go outside, other than with extreme protection. It seems glamorous in a movie. But movies only last for a couple of hours. Day after day, lifetime after lifetime, in an environment that makes our polar regions seem like paradise is not a true strategy for colonization. It ain’t happening.

Modern culture, with its economic and family arrangements is increasingly an example of artificiality. The so-called sexual revolution, touted as a change in choices, lifestyles and personal freedom, is, in reality, a massive intervention into human life by technologies that change the very nature of sex and distort how we see it and use it. For almost all human history, sex between men and women within a certain age range, generally led to the conception of a child. It’s what our bodies were built for. We are fearfully and wonderfully made, such that the right actions between two persons result in the creation of another life.

The philosophies and arguments that we now call the sexual revolution are largely the result of new forms of birth control, particularly the use of artificial hormones, and their popularization. Oddly, as recently as 1928, almost all Protestant denominations in America shared the condemnation of birth control with the traditional Churches such as Catholics and Orthodox. The arguments surrounding family planning were initially the work of ardent eugenicists who saw science as an important tool for breeding a better, healthier race.

With the implementation and popularization of medical intervention, human sexual practices became estranged from human biology. We were no longer “slaves” to our bodies. As such, children became lifestyle choices for people who wanted that sort of thing. The family slowly became reconfigured, not by necessity or nature, but simply by the whims of human desire. The legalization of abortion in the Western world in the latter half of the 20th century added an element of violence to the equation. The failure of birth control had a sure and certain remedy.

And so, when we now discuss “sexuality” in our culture, we have in mind a new thing (not the thing that human beings have lived with throughout all previous history). What might have once been an anomaly and an exception (childless sexuality) is now the only form that we consider normative – children being little more than accessories after the fact. And with the normalization of this technologically invented childless sexuality, all forms of childless sexual behavior appear normative. If sexual activity is abstracted from the procreation of children, then how does it differ from any other form of sexual activity, including those that under any conceivable set of circumstances could never produce a child – or even fail to produce a child. A same-sex couple cannot be described as suffering the tragedy of infertility, for fertility has nothing to do with their relationship.

I mean no attacks on anyone, least of all those whose desires point them in infertile directions. Rather, I mean to include us all as a culture that has willingly made one of its most fundamental human practices into an artificial abstraction. Everything about our sexual lives, other than the most obvious, becomes the point of our relationships. Magazine covers blatantly advertise articles on improved orgasms (and such). It is, oddly, a topic that is never once addressed in all of Christian tradition or the Scriptures – because it’s not the point.

If we lived at the bottom of the ocean, life would be defined by aqualungs and their use and upkeep. It is hard for people to live as fish. We are in danger of re-imagining the normal world to be a place in which such odd interventions are normal, where the procreative life becomes a disease to be controlled.

I write all of this during a time in which sexuality discussions have burst afresh in the Orthodox world (thankfully, only in a tiny corner). My point is that no one writing after about 1960 is competent to suggest changes within the configuration of human sexual understanding. It is like fish trying to discuss life on the land. We haven’t been living on the land now for nearly sixty years. Little wonder that the older stories from our land-dwelling ancestors seem so strange to so many.

About Fr. Stephen Freeman

Fr. Stephen is a retired Archpriest of the Orthodox Church in America, Pastor Emeritus of St. Anne Orthodox Church in Oak Ridge, Tennessee. He is also author of Everywhere Present: Christianity in a One-Storey Universe, and Face to Face: Knowing God Beyond Our Shame, as well as the Glory to God podcast series on Ancient Faith Radio.



by

Comments

269 responses to “Talking to Fish”

  1. Fr. Stephen Freeman Avatar

    Joseph,
    Of course, St. John Chrysostom is not the definitive voice – but a very strong voice within the tradition – and quite helpful. I’ve read Fr. Josiah’s dissertation, but probably not the material outside of that.

    What I mean by conscience – applies specifically to the matters described in the statement from the OCA website – that matters of “health or hardship.” Such things require judgments – and, as I said, with the guidance of a confessor, a couple works that out. Not conscience simply as a private matter. But, “how much hardship”? is a salient question. As a confessor, when guiding or directing a soul, you always have to bear in mind how much they can bear, etc. Economy (there is actually no such thing as “akrivia” (strictness) since the entirety of our salvation is a matter of “economy”) is always required in every matter – and wisdom along with it.

    My caveat regarding rigidity is regards the blind application of some sort of strict standard that does not take into account the health or hardship involved. Abortifacients are clearly forbidden. In my experience, there is a variety of approaches towards non-abortifacient means of contraception – everything from those priests who say “absolutely not” to those who say otherwise. What I do not know of, however, is a single bishop within the US who has said “absolutely not.” I’m willing to hear that information, but I am not aware of it. I am aware of voices that would rail at the bishops over this – but I do not judge my bishop nor do I publish criticisms of the bishops on the blog. When I have criticism or problems with a bishop, I speak to them privately and with respect. I know of at least one priest whose rather extreme views (no sex after fertility has ceased) have been outright condemned by more than one bishop.

    I quote specifically from the guidance offered by the Holy Synod of the OCA:

    The procreation of children is to take place in the context of marital union where the father and mother accept the care of the children whom they conceive.

    Married couples may express their love in sexual union without always intending the conception of a child, but only those means of controlling conception within marriage are acceptable which do not harm a fetus already conceived.

    Married couples may use medical means to enhance conception of their common children, but the use of semen or ova other than that of the married couple who both take responsibility for their offspring is forbidden.

    I prefer to write under the guidance of my Holy Synod. Sex within a marriage is well described in Chrysostom, I think, and generally echoed in other Orthodox writings. Again, my caution about rigidity would be to beware of promulgating rules for others if you are not their priest or confessor. Unless you have taken the burden of their soul’s salvation and will stand with them at judgment, then it’s not your place. But, to clarify again, I do not mean the exercise of a purely free conscience as imagined in Protestant thought. We are a community of faith and belong to one another. I hope that explains what you were seeing as a contradiction. If you mean to suggest that the Holy Synod under which I serve is in error, then the argument is with them. I’m only a priest.

  2. Michael Bauman Avatar
    Michael Bauman

    JBT, spot on. What you suggest is absolutely correct because sex within a consecrated marriage is the only place the reality of our sexual union can be seen. Therefore it is the only benchmark we have to comprehend what God’s order.

    We have to hear that before we can be obedient. Anything else tends to accept the egalitarianism that all sex is the same.

    Lord, forgive me, a sinner.

  3. Janine Avatar
    Janine

    What’s the purpose?

    St Paul writes, “Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ? Shall I then take the members of Christ and make them members of a harlot? Certainly not! Or do you not know that he who is joined to a harlot is one body with her? For ‘the two,” He says, “shall become one flesh.’ But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him.” 1 Cor 6:15-17

    So St Paul goes to the source: the two shall become one flesh. So they are no longer two but one flesh. Everything comes out of this, does it not? It is a radical statement of unity.

  4. Dee of St Hermans Avatar
    Dee of St Hermans

    Fr Stephen ,
    I’m very grateful for your wise words and discerning care. I have witnessed a tendency toward glibness and ease to frame these complex issues. We seem to be too ready to go walk heavily on each other’s hearts and souls. I give thanks to God for your reflection at 12:50pm.

  5. Christopher E Avatar
    Christopher E

    Joseph Barabbas Theophorus says:

    “…does it involve changing the definition of sin, so that the person feels better or some such thing? The latter would be actual legalism—a rigidity and focus on the law to the point where the only “forgiveness” comes from actually changing the law, thus once more putting the person back in some sort of legal justification”

    Good point

    “What does marriage, and specifically sex *within a marriage*, do or create or reveal that are not possible in these other relationships, even if they are committed and exclusive? Once we have that, we have a framework for answering the other questions, and maybe any more that arise in the future that we cannot even imagine right now. But if we can’t speak to that question directly, then I think we’re in trouble.”

    My concern is that at the center of what we are as sexually binary creations is a mystery. In an important way you appear to be asking for the same reasoned explanation(s) of those who argue that the Tradition always needs current applicability to the changing cultural situation and that we do this through open/respectful/compassionate dialogue and listening. That sounds reasonable but I don’t think it actually works that way. The Gospel narrative itself is much more conflicted – full of people, even those closest to Jesus, who simply did not get it. Nobody ever “dialogued” their way to Him! Rather, they suffered their way to Him.

    So “speaking directly” to that question assumes something that I don’t think we have, namely a mystery that somehow opens up by integrating it with (what are in fact modern) forms of questioning and answers as it will our anxiety, to say nothing of the wonderings of modern selves who are outside of Christianity.

  6. juliania Avatar
    juliania

    Father, I couldn’t read all of the comments, forgive me, as I think the subject you address is important to all of us. I am not disturbed that there are, at least as far as I could read, a variety of good questions and answers to be found here by assuredly people of good conscience answering your post in the best way they could. If I repeat, forgive that as well.

    I love the Orthodox marriage service and its reliance on Biblical examples in the hymns that accompany it. I am however remembering that in Matthew’s Gospel, the first chapter where he gives the ‘family tree’ of our Lord, he passes over the name of Bathsheba, calling her ‘the wife of Uriah’ – and that is sufficient to tell about her. He makes no other comment. She is, and was, and her place is left almost unspoken, but spoken just so far.

    This to me is how our faith handles such matters. I went and read Metropolitan Kallistos’ presentation, and I find his arguments there match how I think about the subject. I cannot go into anyone’s bedroom, and I do not wish to be their judge. Were I to ask what happens there – how could I? God will judge.

    We can point out the beauties of the faith, and one is the mysteries encountered by our humanity, our true humanity, in that nothing we suppose about one another is the entire substance of our holy encounter with God. I think that is what Metropolitan Kallistos is saying. As with the wife of Uriah, before such a mystery as that our Lord took on flesh from her human line, the rest can be a loving silence.

    Our Father’s house has many mansions.

  7. Joseph Barabbas Theophorus Avatar

    Fr. Stephen,

    Thanks for your reply. We are already in a complex situation because of the varying voices, including from bishops, but I did not mean to make that the focal point in and of itself nor suggest we jettison obedience. Indeed, I can recall situations where where I was asked to go against the bishop. I refused, at great cost to myself. So I understand, and that is not what I was intending to bring up.

    Rather, I really am, as I mentioned, looking for a framework. A model may be a better word. Some of the ancillary points I brought up where the highlight just how difficult a situation we have—and continue to put people in—when we don’t have a model that we can look to. The Fathers do not do theology “in a vacuum”, but they have some kind of vision and speak from that. Their teachings may not necessarily reveal the model directly, but it is clear they have the same vision, the same thing in mind when they are able to look at an issue from multiple angles and [seemingly] so easily come up with the correct rule, or teaching, or just general word across time and place and be in agreement with each other. For one reason or another, I don’t think too many Fathers talked about marriage in these terms—I don’t think they particularly needed to. The works and statements I have read do not really give such a model, either. Thus, it becomes exceedingly difficult to speak on the subject, a lot of contradictory statements result, and people who are not ready to just accept the teaching of the bishop (Orthodox or not) that come to me with these questions need something more substantial. Again, I have not seen that written down anywhere; at most, I’ve seen some slightly-modified Protestant positions that do not really link to or flow from Christology but rather a peculiar, literal reading of Genesis. Hence, my questions and a brief note about how damaging our inability to clearly communicate some model has been.

    Christopher E,

    I think that the knowledge of God is indeed bound up with suffering. But I don’t that that means we cannot or should not dig deeper into these questions. Mysteries do not necessarily have some quick, easy answer, but they do serve to draw us in. I think of The Fathers at the first two Ecumenical Councils. Instead of merely leaving us with a list of teachings that needed to be condemned, they gave us The Creed, a model that we can use—and have used very well—to fight heresies that were not even imagined at the time. And because it is a mystery itself, it also has a depth to it that allows theologizing. That is due to a lot of reasons, including inspiration from The Holy Spirit and the fact that it springs forth from and references a larger Tradition—it is not just a collection of detached statements but a rather detailed vision of The Truth. I was asking for something, as far as we are able, that would do the same for marriage. Right now, we seem to have two models which are not really compatible: we have one model (which I noted seems, at least, to be the understanding of many Fathers) which underlies our hymnography and canons and our position regarding what relationships are acceptable and then we have a second model (which is very popular today and may be compatible with some of the canons and hymnography) which seems to be very gentle but, if accepted “as is”, really blows the idea of limiting marriage to man and woman out of the water. I am not saying it is impossible to have a model that somehow allows us to uphold the traditional Patristic teachings yet also reveals the proper place for more sexuality within a marriage, only that I have never seen any model that reconciles the two. Hence the question. What we have been doing is switching between the two rapidly depending on what we want to do/teach/permit. And when people see that kind of thing, it causes immense damage. At least one of the models is wrong; I am open to there being a third possibility, too, but that is the question I was asking.

  8. Fr. Stephen Freeman Avatar

    JBT,
    I understand you thoughts viz. “models.” I am uncertain that a model is sufficient to the mystery. Too often, a model can degenerate into a syllogism, resulting in a scholasticism that does not serve us well. No doubt, there can and should be a model – finding it well-expressed and compelling is worth our efforts.

  9. Janine Avatar
    Janine

    Hi again Fr Stephen and JBT,

    I don’t have the understanding that the two you do, nor the experience, nor do I know all the contemporary sources to which you refer. But I would like to say that when we speak about Church history and the Fathers (and Mothers, if you will), we are talking about a deeply dynamic history. The Councils were necessary because of the dynamism and debate that was always ongoing. And we have saints and great Fathers who nevertheless held positions still not accepted in the length of history. It’s that dynamism that exists even as we are held together that is part and parcel of mystery and communion. Never has the ongoing creativity of holiness constituted a collective or an abstract, but that communion of persons in which holiness seems only to expand variety and uniqueness even within the depth of truth. Paradox and mystery and beauty! Treasury of blessings and giver of life abundantly indeed.

  10. Dino Avatar
    Dino

    JBT,
    I always appreciate your comments.
    I should think that this ‘model’ exists and is known by the saints, but hasn’t been articulated with the clarity that something like the Creed was. The monastic life (in its coenobitic, sketian and anchorite variants), being far more unmitigated, seems to have had a slightly greater clarity in its ‘model’s’ descriptions (and rules), plus numerous “benchmarks” in the many lives of saints that came from it.
    One difficulty in stipulating married life’s perfect model is therefore its (unsurprisingly) far less absolute path of life.
    Another, is that saints from married backgrounds have appeared to be sanctified neither because of marriage, neither despite of marriage, but because of their faith, humility, patience, longsuffering, hospitality etc in the general circumstances of life. [In monasticism many have been presented as sanctified because of monasticism per se] However, these married saints still sometimes modelled sanctity precisely as husbands, wives and parents, rather than despite this, (or as celibates, although, to complicate things, many finally ‘achieved’ celibacy too). It’s also a tricky thing to consider the, sometimes, ‘concessionary character’ of blessed marriage (1Corithians 7:6) and how appropriate virtues –despite its occasional “hindrance” (1 Corinthians 7:28) to certain spiritual accomplishments– sanctify those that come from its path, while virtues of a different sort might sanctify coenobites and others still hesychasts.
    However, there is a sense that no matter where you find yourself, you can be holly or evil with what you have at hand, and that can easily be articulated as simply ‘keeping the commandments’.
    Furthermore, we need to consider the times: blessed marriage in modernity, for instance, can soon be a more ascetic life (relatively) [eg: for certain persons from a previously deeply Church-less background], than coenobitic life might have been in the 6th century for a person from a traditional believing farmer’s background.

  11. Paula AZ Avatar
    Paula AZ

    Thank you all for your comments to JBT. You filled in a lot of gaps where I just didn’t have the words. So, thank you.

    There is an article by Fr. John Behr that has been circulating over the past week, “From Adam to Christ: From Male and Female to Being Human” that I found extremely helpful. Here’s the link for those who would like to read it:
    https://luxchristi.files.wordpress.com/2018/06/db12d-issue23133a14behr.pdf

  12. Mark Basil Avatar
    Mark Basil

    Dino,
    the subject of sexual relations as it has been discussed through our Church’s history, has always been a challenge to me (and I suspect others). A friend sent me this comment by Fr Seraphim Aldea (the question and answer at about 57 min.)
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f6l-2GKfoCM

    When the monk was asked about marital relations, he began his answer with, “well, first of all, why would you ask a monastic?”

    The vast majority of the Church’s writings have naturally been by (and often for ) monastics. Why should I not allow that this would colour the nature of the discussion of sexuality? For a monastic, sexual desire could only be a temptation. But chastity for my wife and I means unto our united “one flesh”. It is a mystery expressive of Christ and His Bride; it is life-creating in it unity; it is also pleasurable (and should be so). All of this is from our Tradition, too.

    In the very first conversation I ever had with the monk who would become my spiritual father, he said, “There is no question there are far more Saints who lived the married life. But those known to us are more often monastics. This is a good thing too, because the Christian life is an extreme life, and the monastic path witnesses to this.”
    But that extreme- and the theosis that is the only goal of the Christian life for monk or married, and made possible equally to both- will look very different for married people.
    While celibacy between husband and wife might be mutually chosen for various beneficial reasons, it has I think been valued too highly and too exclusively in the history of our Church.

    I agree with JBT that we as a Church have not spoken clearly and consistently on Marriage, sexuality, and gender. I agree that this leads to confusion, and often reactive, insensitive, inappropriate defenses of male priesthood, the meaning of feminine in our Divine image, and why, exactly, homosexuality is not helpful.

    I dont know just what theosis in a married couple looks like: I love the beautiful icon of Christ’s grandparents Joachim and Anna, and the warmth of their marital love and the birth of the Theotokos in this.
    I haven’t read Fr John Behr’s book you mentioned but that his position is a minority one and out of step with the majority of ascetics is encouraging to me! Fr John is married so apt to see and understand some things that monks have trouble seeing clearly. And the Tradition is not in “majority opinion” but in the fullness of the gospel. The Church has a historical and cultural road that needs to be taken into account, and for reasons just barely touched on here this includes a “bias toward celibacy” that may not be Holy Tradition per se. A similar careful discernment of the Tradition, amidst misleading historical writings, is needed to understand how and why slavery is (and always has been) actually not consistent with the Kingdom and therefor is not ‘taught’ by Holy Tradition.

    -Mark Basil

  13. Mark Basil Avatar
    Mark Basil

    I forgot to include this nugget sent to me by a friend:
    From St Maximos’s Ambigua [looking at Moses and Elijah]:
    “Or again, the disciples learned that the mysteries of marriage and celibacy stand equally next to the Word, insofar as marriage did not impede Moses from becoming a lover of the Divine glory, whereas Elijah remained completely free of any marital bond, for the Word of God proclaims that He mystically adopts as His sons those who live in either of these ways through reason and in accordance with the divinely established laws concerning them.”

    Marriage “stands equally” next to the Word, when it is in accordance with God’s law. Lawful marriage in no way precludes sexual relations for the whole duration of the married life.

    Peace;
    -Mark Basil

  14. Christopher E Avatar
    Christopher E

    JBT says,

    “a second model …. which seems to be very gentle but, if accepted “as is”, really blows the idea of limiting marriage to man and woman out of the water. I am not saying it is impossible to have a model that somehow allows us to uphold the traditional Patristic teachings yet also reveals the proper place for more sexuality within a marriage, only that I have never seen any model that reconciles the two….”

    I do hear what your saying JBT. Since I recommend Fr. John Behr’s way of thinking about this and Paula AZ linked an essay on it allow me to make a suggestion of a possible “reconciliation” of the two models. Your right, in that the iteration of the second model would appear to suffer the weakness you describe: replace “male and female” with “male and male” in the sacramental/martyric action in this present life of “grey area” as he calls it, and it does not *seem* to make a lick of difference. Inject merely “natural” procreation and are you left with a morality/argument merely from nature that would seem to be unnecessary to the logic of Fr. John’s theology? Is not the seeming distance between these two models not the very complaint of those who say we (i.e. the Church) don’t really have any synthesized “dogma”/theology with which to answer the questions of the day?

    My suggestion is to look carefully at this last claim through the lens of Fr. Stephen’s “talking fish” analogy. In my opinion, this latter claim comes not from the content of the normative moral tradition and anthropology of our male/female createdness – not even in Fr. John Behr’s logic. Rather this claim is a “reflection” if you will of the lens through which they look at the question, this modern “abstraction of fundamental human practices” as Fr. Stephen puts it. Using Fr. John’s framing, replace “human” with “male and female” and you are still arrive at the same place – an abstraction that bends the light such that it skews the image.

    My point is that at the end of the day the two models are not that far apart. Yes, model one suffers from the abstraction of an argument “from nature.” Model two suffers from a seeming abstraction from nature itself (thus leading to what appears to be its agnosticism towards the traditional male/female sacramental life). The problem with both is language and its limited ability to circumscribe the enormity of the givenness of our bodies and spirits in a created male/female humanity that begins in the mind of God and ends in the Eschaton.

    In other words, the trick is to hold both models together and work not inward in a destructive way – aiming our discursive reason at the Tradition in such a way that one is in fact looking to shape it with the modern lens discussed above (this is what certain modern reformers would have us do). Rather we have to take the Tradition (i.e. these two models) and work outward toward the world and the modern situation. I have no doubt this is what you did in your class.

    I pray that my words here are not too impenetrable! 😉

  15. Janine Avatar
    Janine

    Dino wrote;
    “Another, is that saints from married backgrounds have appeared to be sanctified neither because of marriage, neither despite of marriage, but because of their faith, humility, patience, longsuffering, hospitality etc in the general circumstances of life..”

    Bingo, if I may say so. I think one will find that a focus on these traditional virtues is a true test of marriage. It wd be better to focus on this as substance. The gender focus (in any position on the subject) IMO too easily leaves out these virtues from the substance of marriage.

  16. Dino Avatar
    Dino

    Mark Basil, Janine et al,
    I think that a vital difference between marriage and monasticism [missing from Fr John Behr’s thesis] is that, while humans are ‘completed’ through martyrdom [which I find to be the best-made point in his homilies] –which is encountered in both paths (in all paths if you like)– leading to the one end of Theosis;
    marriage is initially chosen through some desire for (carnal) pleasure (and martyrdom follows somewhat unwillingly),
    whereas monasticism is chosen (perhaps I should clarify: ought to be chosen) through a desire for martyrdom, and (spiritual) pleasure follows.

  17. Byron Avatar
    Byron

    Fr. Lawrence Farley’s wrote a blog post on Metropolitan Ware’s introduction and, I think, he hit the nail on the head by pointing out that the focus should be on repentance, not sin. From his article (found at https://glory2godforallthings.com/nootherfoundation/metropolitan-kallistos-and-the-wheel/) :

    The whole issue of absolution and access to the Chalice revolves entirely upon the issue of whether or not the sinner is repentant and resolves to change. Their success in effecting change does not determine whether or not absolution is given—solely their sincere repentance and resolve. It is the same with a heterosexual with a porn addiction. If the person repents and resolves to refrain from using porn, he is absolved. Future failures do not mean that future absolution cannot be given, so long as the repentances are genuine and the resolve to change is sincere. Addiction is hard to break, and so patience and perseverance are required. It is quite different if the person addicted to porn tells the priest that he refuses to repent and refuses a resolve to avoid pornography. If that person said (in the words the Metropolitan places in the mouth of the faithfully monogamous homosexual), “I am not yet ready to undertake that”—whether the “that” is an avoidance of pornography or homosexual practice—then of course no absolution or communion are possible. There is no injustice or harsh treatment in either case.

    I tend to think the Church has spoken concerning marriage in a manner that is consistently neither modern nor consistent with modern ideas. The problem becomes one of shoehorning modern ideas into the mystery of the sacramental marriage communion. As Fr. Freeman has pointed out in the past, the teachings of our faith are “spun from whole cloth”; they do not stand independent of one another but all together bring us into closer communion with God. Looking for a “model” may bring us to a level of compartmental-ism that is anathema to the Gospel.

    That said, I believe the “model” ( to use the term in the current conversation) of marriage is founded upon humility and repentance before God, the same as all models of asceticism, and that we should always begin with that. Just my thoughts.

  18. Adam N Avatar
    Adam N

    Dino,

    I don’t follow your last post. Can marriage not be chosen for martyrdom too? Out of a desire to serve one’s betrothed and future children? That marriage requires a (much) less strict ascetic rule for chastity does not seem to imply that it ought to be chosen out of carnal desire.

  19. Fr. Stephen Freeman Avatar

    Adam, Dino,
    I’m with Adam on this one. Particularly in today’s culture – who needs to get married to copulate? Those choosing marriage (particularly in the Church) often have a fairly clear image of the ascetic nature of their undertaking. They certainly do when they have finished their premarital counseling with me! 🙂

  20. Esmée La Fleur Avatar

    Thank you, Byron, for the link to Fr. Lawrence Farley’s response.

  21. Dino Avatar
    Dino

    Father, Adam N,
    It’s worth noting however that even before the official establishment of monasticism, St Paul exclaims the same:
    “An unmarried man is concerned about the Lord’s affairs-how he can be liked [this is the right translation] by the Lord.
    But a married man is concerned about the affairs of this world-how he can be liked [this is the right translation] by his wife.

    I also don’t think that – given the choice of the two paths to one and the same person – we can compare the martyric motives of monastic consecration to marriage. Who chooses the second instead of the first because they are after martyrdom and not after pleasure?

    Of course our “times” are indeed an issue to take into account, as I mentioned earlier on.

  22. Christopher E Avatar
    Christopher E

    Dino,

    Yes St. Paul said that – but then some have believed (and maybe this is just a “modern” supposition) that the “thorn” in St. Paul’s side was his wife 😉

    Many (most?) of the Apostles were married, and monasticism did not exist in the Church in the first century’s of its life. Is monasticism a later revelation of greater path amongst lessor paths of marriage, widowhood, and virginity? As a practical observation in the early Church martyrdom by execution from the state came from all these groups.

    In my mind your argument hinges on your initial assertion of a ranking of desire and the will. Yet, we know that the absence of God and the hole in our heart is a melancholy experience (indeed a desperate one) that drives us to God. We also know that the joy in carnal desire is fleeting and fickle, leading only to a suffering that drives us on to the next fleeting satisfaction. We also know that there is a real joy in agape love for *both* God and neighbor.

    I even think Fr. John’s thesis of marriage being a martyrdom “in adam” might support your thesis because I suppose the monastic life could be thought of as couched in a kind of purity of the will – but can it really? Are not ALL of us born and take up the Cross of our martyrdom in adam?

    Perhaps Fr. Stephen can say something about the “givenness” of all this, the humble part our will actually plays.

  23. Paula AZ Avatar
    Paula AZ

    Father… forgive me for being so forward, but why did you take down your last post? I wish I had made a copy of it! I trust your judgement though. Yet I do not think you misspoke…

    Dino…always, thank you. I believe you speak in general terms about the difference between marriage and monasticism, right? I reference here “marriage is initially chosen through some desire for (carnal) pleasure (and martyrdom follows somewhat unwillingly)”. Maybe this is the case for most, but not all who enter marriage? To make a statement “between” two things one must draw a sharp delineation, which may or may not include all cases.
    Also, I think you believe that celibacy is the “better” of the two, and the choice of marriage a “God given” expedience ?

    Byron…”the teachings of our faith are “spun from whole cloth”….. Looking for a “model” may bring us to a level of compartmental-ism… I believe the “model”.. of marriage is founded upon humility and repentance before God..” Yes, well said!

    Some thoughts of my own:
    This has been a most interesting week…an invaluable learning experience to be part of the “workings” and “ways” things (issues, dialogue, efforts to remain true to the faith…) take place in Orthodoxy. I am very thankful that I am even given the opportunity to speak (which I do not shy away from!), being fairly new here. Many times I cringe at my comments…either said in haste or lacking full understanding of the topic. The welcome I receive despite being “new” contributes immensely to establishing my place in the Church, together with, not separate from, all. I can only say with heartfelt thanks, Thank You!
    As for this current thread which began with JBT’s comment (which I totally missed the point!), Father mentioned (in the comment you removed, Father!) that procreation is inseparable from the ultimate purpose of marriage (union of male and female)…yes, Father? After reading the comments, I spent the entire night “searching”. It was a good venture. Reading Father’s response, one of the first things that came to mind was St. Paul’s words “Nevertheless she will be saved in childbearing..” 1 Tim 2;15. I thought, ‘there is something to this’…and proceeded to come across an article by Fr. Josiah that referenced this verse, which led to other articles on the subject of marriage written by him. It finally dawned on me that this is “the” Fr. Josiah that JBT and Father mentioned in the earlier posts…and that is when I finally understood JBT’s thoughts about “sex in marriage”. With all due respect to Fr. Josiah, I say this: Father Stephen, you said when you counsel married or singles, you guide them slowly by discerning what they “could bear”. Regarding Fr. Josiah’s teachings on what is and what is not allowed in “sex in marriage”, I totally see the wisdom of your approach. And your words regarding alternate lifestyles at odds with the purpose of marriage and procreation were most helpful.

    I think I’ve said enough for now…sorry this is so long. I am very grateful to all of you whom I learn from. Father, 70×7, thank you.

  24. Dino Avatar
    Dino

    Paula AZ,
    I never actually believed the superiority of monasticism over marriage until I discovered it through experience and saw it so clearly spoken of in the Fathers and Mothers of the Church. Read ‘on virginity’ by Chrysostom for instance, who says their difference is that of the earth and the heavens, all the time managing to retain the notion of Marriage’s holiness.
    Practically, however, the first one is elected for undistracted, continuous, exclusive focus upon the Lord alone, (an unnatural life if you like – or rather – a supernatural life) and the other is the blessing of this ‘natural life’, albeit, with its infinite distractions. Even though marriage somehow, really does bless some ‘distractions’ into blessings, they remain distractions for their greater part.
    The -often far greater than monastic’s- spiritual struggle against distractions, in order to retain our Godwards life ‘in the world’ is unavoidable. The “exclusive life” (a good term to keep things understandable rightly) also can have unbearable distractions in the form of thoughts (to start off with especially), but conventionally, it progresses to a different spiritual struggle (often unknown to those in the world): the struggle to go deeper into God, a God one has come to know personally as His consecrated disciple that can do nothing other than be His, (and not just the worldly struggle against the things that are distracting us from trying to, first stand before Him in order to get to know Him, and then do the rest which we cannot just ignore as we are not consecrated in the exclusive sense of monastics).
    I find that the most practical difference of all, of course, is the daily schedule, ie: that the first life has from (a typical bare minimum of) one and a half, to seven hours of nighttime exclusivity with the Lord (!) along with daily support to this from one who has trodden the path, and daily services all your life, while the other doesn’t. All talk that comes from one who hasn’t first hand knowledge of the effect of at least this on a human person, is inevitably speculative.

  25. Paula AZ Avatar
    Paula AZ

    Thanks Dino. I understand what you are saying here.
    Since my comment above there is a new post by Father today and even more comments to tread through. Again, I do not doubt your words, as you say you have first hand experience and can better judge/discern the differences between marriage and monasticism. So now, with much thought, I can at least acknowledge those differences. And either way, we are all called to martyrdom. Yet, like Father said in today’s new post, most of us have to work with what we are given…we are not left with much of a choice. If you are in the Church, it’s either marriage or celibacy, and that with a lot of guidance. I think one of the reasons it takes me so long to comprehend these things is that I have always been single and most of my adult life was exclusively worldly. So I can only imagine and I try to understand the sacrament of marriage. I seek this understanding from many angles…from our discussions here, to reading about the Saints (ex. St. Maximus), to the wonders of the Theotokos, and of coarse the Supreme Reality of The Lord Jesus…all to grasp the reality of “being human”. It’s a lot to take in…but I can’t do without it! I don’t want to! So thank you again Dino. Your words do not fall on dear ears!

  26. Janine Avatar
    Janine

    Everybody,
    In the current social climate of marriage as some kind of “acquisition,” and even personal identity derived entirely from passion, marriage as sacrament, and self-emptying or theosis in any form is deeply radical, and filled with otherwise missing meaning. Even to see children as a blessing ( and not an acquisition in some sense) is possibly missing.

  27. Dee of St Hermans Avatar
    Dee of St Hermans

    Mark Basil,
    Thank you so much for your comments. I have been impressed by Fr Seraphim’s humility and generosity. I note that it seems some people think chasity ends with the marriage vows. This appears to be a Protestant theological problem that apparently has been taken up by some Orthodox.

    I recall (but their name escapes me) noteworthy Saint(s) who as monastic(s) are humble and truthful about their ‘status’ and demonstrate in their words that despite their supposed ‘chastity’ they declare themselves ‘non-virgins’.

    And I note that saints tend to be born in marriages and not mushrooms.

    Last, regarding ‘fasts’ I personally find it easier to fast completely from food rather than certain items or to restrict to a few light meals. That is I actually find it easier to follow a so called ‘hard simple rule’ rather than a less simple rule. The later requires of me actually more constraint and greater reliance on God.

    As you point out Mark, have we actually tallied up all the saints to say definitely who and what walk of life they have lived? To suggest that we have tallied them up is indeed hubris, with which I’m uncomfortable to hear among Orthodox.

    Last, to be honest I really don’t know how my own marriage has lasted 30 years with love intact. It is Gods work and a mystery to me. I don’t think I’m qualified to talk about God’s mysteries. But I’m very grateful and completely believe it has been an integral part of my salvation.

  28. Byron Avatar
    Byron

    I find, from reading the comments, that we are finally coming to the point of recognizing (or have reached it) that both marriage and monasticism require great asceticism. It seems, the idea of one being better than the other has largely dissolved in the conversation, which is a good thing (that said, I realize there is no consensus; just a recognition that both require much). They should really never be pitted against each other; we do not know our brother’s or sister’s passions and what drives/drove them to one or the other.

    Dino’s post on the different “distractions” of each and the “different spiritual struggles” required of each is probably one of the clearest I’ve read on the matter. It reminds me that Orthodoxy is experiential. “Come and see”,..indeed!

  29. Dino Avatar
    Dino

    Byron,
    There is no point in the two paths being pitted against each other just for the sake of it. Yet, there are those finding themselves weighing the pros and cons because they are in a position (and a time of their lives) that inclines towards either or both paths. That’s whom this can be useful for. One could, of course, argue that anyone who is still wondering whether they should follow the “exclusive life” might probably be better off not following it, but that’s beside the point. The stifling of the Church’s monastic call can be as criminal as the silencing of Her call to repentance.

    An often overlooked detail is that being ‘in the world’ is never quite chosen -it’s the default state- while renouncing it is indeed a radical decision. (It’s why novices who do not proceed any further might find the question of “why did you decide to go to the world after all this time?” unfounded: They never actually decided to be laypersons – they simply remained lay persons. They do choose a person to marry of course…)

  30. Dee of St Hermans Avatar
    Dee of St Hermans

    I didn’t know monastics were not in the world. All of us are called to be not “of” the world.

  31. Dino Avatar
    Dino

    Dee
    Monastic “flee the world and all its affairs” both internally as well as externally. When someone is forced to “go out to the world” for some reason from Mount Athos for example, this is how they phrase it.

  32. Dino Avatar
    Dino

    Dee of St Herman’s
    I’ll give an example to demonstrate the enormity of the consequence of not being in the world (as well as not being “of” the world):
    Imagine some people who work in a tannery. They eventually become immune to the unbearable stench and practically unaware of it (People in the world and of the world are represented by these). Now, imagine a person who works there but is always shielding themselves from the filth, wearing masks etc. They have a greater awareness of the stench and struggle against it (One being not of the world but in the world is represented here). Now imagine bringing a person from out in the fragrant fields in…! Their pure awareness of the stench would be more than visceral, and in fact, inconceivable for even the guarded worker. (That’s a person that is ‘out of the world’)
    Even 18 days away would make a worker from the tannery more sensitive to the stench, imagine 18 months or 18 years…!
    Even a lax monastic in Athos for example would conventionally have no worldly news, no opposite sex encounters, no sounds, sights, tastes or smells of the city and the list goes on… But this goes beyond just the “City versus nature” effect (which obviously makes a great difference too).

  33. Paula AZ Avatar
    Paula AZ

    Dee, Dino,
    I have observed in the current conversations on the blog a peculiar thing. The few people who are single seem to have less of a problem understanding the vast difference in the solitary life of monasticism. That being for obvious reasons.
    I do not think Dino misspeaks by bringing out the difference between married life as a Christian, living in the world but not of it, and monasticism which is living not in the world period. There is a vast difference.
    Dee, you’ve been married for 30 years…that’s a heck of a long time. I’ve been single all my life. I don’t know what it’s like to be married. I certainly can not comment on married life, as I have not the experience. In this respect I can relate, in a small way, to the solitary life of monasticism. As a single person, it is more familiar to me than all the discussion on married life and children we encounter. The focus is demanding and strong. I’m trying to understand all this. It has been said here by someone that marriage between a man and a woman is the path to union with Christ. If that is true, where does that leave those who never marry? Something more needs to be said. To find such a discussion is sometimes like trying to find a needle in a haystack.
    I guess what I am saying, Dee, is I sense you are pushing against what Dino has to say here. Correct me where I am wrong. I have noted Father’s wish, on the post following this one, to avoid discussion about monasticism vs marriage. He says it is not helpful for the current discussion about marriage. I understand. I am also thankful that Father is allowing comments to continue on this post.
    I am still trying to figure out a lot of things about life. I’m just glad to have someone who I can relate to (Dino’s comments) on this particular topic.
    I sense a distance between the married and singles. I have a feeling this is a personal projection because I know I distance myself (I get close, but there’s a point where I do not go further), and that is not good. I hope you understand what I’m trying to say.

  34. Dean Avatar
    Dean

    Paula, AZ,
    Paula, of course the married life is only A possible path to union with Christ. Christ says there are eunuchs (celebates?) who have made themselves so for the kingdom of God. You have studied the Bible. You know the passages in which Paul says it is better to remain unmarried…one thus has one devotion, (a person is not distracted with the needs of a spouse/children), and that to Christ. I cannot imagine life single, and you can’t imagine marriage and children. Well, that’s okay. In many ways, by yourself on the farm, you can better give yourself to wholehearted devotion to our Lord Jesus. There are several women in their 40’s and 50’s who frequent the monastery. They basically live as nuns in the world, though they hold down a job. They are like Mary at Jesus’ feet who have chosen the better portion.

  35. Paula AZ Avatar
    Paula AZ

    Thanks Dean. Really.
    The passage by Paul about it being better to remain unmarried…
    I know it by heart 😉 !
    Yes, you are right, I can give Christ my wholehearted devotion. Although I am uncomfortable assessing myself in such a way (it seems too self absorbing…hard to explain…) I think that is what I pretty much do. Interesting what you said about the women who basically live as nuns in the world. I would love to meet them.

    The difficult part for me is relationships… and relating when in a group. It is a peculiar “place” that I must live with and come to peace with. Dean, believe me, I am slowly, by the grace of God, doing that. I was a total mess in my earlier years…not too long ago really.
    But thank you…you are very kind.
    And, by God, one of these days I have to get over to that Serbian Monastery, St. Paisius’ ! I know it will be a blessing!

  36. Fr. Stephen Freeman Avatar

    Re: St. Paul
    It is of note that St. Paul’s caveat about marriage, that a married man has to take thought how to “please his wife,” does not say that the married man has to take thought for how to please himself. He only means that it could be a distraction. I think that earlier in the conversation it was treated as if he were saying the former rather than the latter. Anyone who gets married for “pleasure” is in for a rude awakening, and rather quickly, I would think. That sort of selfish take on things belongs to the rake and not a married man.

    2 cents.

  37. Dee of St Hermans Avatar
    Dee of St Hermans

    Paula,
    I have no doubt at all about the sanctity and holiness of a life lived as a single or as a celibate, whether in community (in a monastery) or as a hermit.

    If you see a “tone” in my writing, it is that I refuse to exalt Orthodox one life way over another. In this regard, I refer to Christ’s words when a couple of His apostles attempted to persuade Him to designate themselves to be at the “right-hand” of Christ in heaven. His response was to say that their respective “positions” (if it should be called that) will be determined by God, the Father. Although Christ is God, He apparently defers the attention away from the behavior of these self assignments. There is ‘mystery’ regarding what our situation is in the world to come, rather than something we can figure out or hold as some sort of hierarchy in heaven or on earth. The hierarchy that we know of in the Church is in the line of priests, bishops and higher clergy.

    Fr Stephen suggests to not engage in comparisons as it isn’t particularly helpful and I completely agree. It may be that you want to explore these meanings for your life, however, and that to me is completely understandable. Fr Stephen has mentioned that the question “how am I doing” as not a particularly helpful question, because it leads to comparisons that can cripple. Rather it is better to say, “I am doing”.

  38. Paula AZ Avatar
    Paula AZ

    Father…thanks for the clarification. Hate to say it but I think many people do get married for the pleasure and to avoid living alone. So ok, the conversation earlier about marriage being the path to union with Christ is in the self sacrificing.
    Thank you…more than two cents, Father!

  39. Paula AZ Avatar
    Paula AZ

    Dee,
    Thanks much for explaining yourself.
    I do not know how Dino could avoid favoring one position over another when it is his evaluation of the two, and that is through personal experience.
    You are correct, I do want to explore the meanings for my life. Somehow I don’t think I’m the only one reading this blog that wants to do so. For that reason I say the comparisons are helpful….to a point. I get that.
    As for “how I am doing” not being helpful…I did allude to that rather clumsily to my response to Dean!

  40. Dino Avatar
    Dino

    Father, Paula,
    There’s selfishness and selfnessness motivating both decisions usually.
    But one can only look at that -as I tried to explain earlier – by looking at one individual weighing the 2 options. Forgive me using an explicit example for clarity – perhaps the most common type of this dilemma…:
    Say, for example that I am a person in their early twenties that has repented from promiscuous teenage years and genuinely seek a path that is God pleasing (while inevitably seeking to accomodate my still-lingering self as well). Do I choose the life of deprivation and complete renunciation as a Great Schema monk? ( I am in trepidation of the solemnity of such a life and the rarity of others succesful in it is worrying yet I also want the spiritual pleasures of it…) it’s a mixed afair and will only be revealed later and requires mad courage to decide… but so does marriage to a smaller degree… Do I instead choose marrying that beautiful girl that I cannot get my mind off? ( I am a little worried of this commitment too but it’s so much easier as I know what sleeping with a beatiful woman should be and i am not now concerned about how in future being with the same woman might change, while sleeping as a hermit – though i know there’s such great promise in the spiritual delights – worries me considering it for a whole lifetime, it might be too much to keep to at times and breaking that vow seems a greater sin than breaking the other, I need a permanence that will be viable.)
    So based on that most common form that this dilemma normally takes I repeat that saying I was once told that marriage starts off as pleasure seeking or else nobody would get married whereas monasticism starts off as a crazy heroic decision to a far greater degree. Both end up cruciform though… what goes on later on in the hands of the Good God is what will mature the believer in either calling.

  41. Dino Avatar
    Dino

    Incidentally something that’s almost laughable yet quite telling is that young children that are related to monasteries and vistit often (with more possibilities of considering the said dilemma) are sometimes disuaded by the wearing of a cassock for life. The comfort of the known atire becomes the factor…

  42. Paula AZ Avatar
    Paula AZ

    Interesting Dino.
    You couldn’t have been more clear in your examples. Thank you.

  43. Byron Avatar
    Byron

    I find it interesting that I read, just yesterday, of a person who wore different uniforms (as he put it) out in public to see the affect on others. One “uniform” he wore was a cassock. He said wearing a cassock brought to him the greatest sense of responsibility and the greatest reactions from the people around him, especially the homeless and poor. He was literally exhausted by it and didn’t ever want to wear it again by the end of his experiment!

    There may a sense of this in those who are concerned with wearing a cassock for life. The responsibility implied and received in the eyes of others may create quite a burden for someone so young.

  44. Dino Avatar
    Dino

    And monastics unlike a married priest are practically NEVER taking them off.
    I have heard that despite the immense gravity of the vows to no possessions, no family contact, chastity, obedience unto death, etc. the catalyst (for those who never saw themselves as also a priest perhaps, especially those from a secular background ) that scares them off most is the wearing of the cassock .

  45. Dee of St Hermans Avatar
    Dee of St Hermans

    Byron,
    It may be presumptuous make assumptions about the reactions of others, and what they specifically react to. I make this cautionary statement from experience, as well. I understand this due in part to my experience as an unlikely person who obtained an unexpected level in this society. But also, I’ve avoiding speaking about 13 years of my life on this blog for personal and for possibly good reasons. For example, it is presumptuous to judge who and what I am on the basis of the 30 years of my life in marriage, to presume that I didn’t have many years in a state that would be ascribed as very ascetic complete with living away from society, in a place far away from people, where culture and people were inaccessible, and with wearing clothing that would ‘tell a story’ of a life apart. I believe quick attributions are too easy, and personally, I do my best to avoid ‘judging’ the state of others or of myself.

    Indeed a black cassock can mean ‘religious’ to people, put I note that the type of apparel are worn by many who are married (Hassidim and some Christian groups among others) as well as celibate.

  46. Dee of St Hermans Avatar
    Dee of St Hermans

    Please forgive me Father, if what I say next appears too terse, and remove as you see fit.
    But it seems easy for us to forget we are ‘talking fish’.

  47. Dee of St Hermans Avatar
    Dee of St Hermans

    And having said what I said above, about those 13 years– I can imagine there might be thoughts among the readers of a life lived in some sort of servitude to drink or drug or sex. None of that describes that life I lived.

  48. Fr. Stephen Freeman Avatar

    I wear my cassock a lot of the time – always in the parish – and much of the time when I’m out and around. I will say that, to a certain extent, the cassock serves as an outward and visible mark of the priest as sacrament. When I’m in a cassock, I am identifiably a priest, and, no matter what I do, it is a priest who is seen to be doing it.

    I try to behave the same way when I’m not in my cassock. Theoretically, this is true of all Christians, all of the time. But a priest endures what every person in a uniform endures – the uniform is what is seen first and the person second (if at all).

    I’ve been physically attacked, verbally abused, spat on, etc., because of the cassock – most of the time being mistaken for a Catholic priest. 🙂

    I’ve been verbally ridiculed by someone who thought I was a Jew – this was late at night in the local Walmart – and not very surprising.

    On the other hand, none of this is even slightly noticeable when compared to someone who walks around with dark skin. Priests rarely have to deal with being harassed by the police.

  49. Byron Avatar
    Byron

    Dee,

    I only related the conclusions that were in the article. The rest was an observation which, as I noted, may impact a person considering monastic life. I am certain there are many reasons people choose or avoid a monastic (or married) life. I did not mean to presume on anyone, only to add an angle to the conversation that had not yet been mentioned (aside from Dino’s reference, to which I replied). Please forgive me if I stated it poorly.

  50. Mark Basil Avatar
    Mark Basil

    Dino;
    I have come back online and will add another comment I guess, but this should be my last.
    Some of what concerns me about the perspective you are sharing- and I believe it is the mainstream pious Orthodox perspective today at least- is that it seems ignorant of the heart. You have characterized a decision for marriage as, at some level, pleasure seeking. You have characterized the choice for monasticism as at some level, heroic. I simply disagree.
    There are complex layers to our will, our passions, our motivations. We do not even know the mystery of our *own* hearts. In an Orthodox culture where monasticism is praised and elevated, then the ‘heroism’ can be tainted- by hidden pride among other elements. Conversely in the same culture, to humbly and soberly devote oneself to married life, to serve wife (as neighbour=christ) and child (as neighbour=christ), instead of one’s own needs, etc. This is heroism. There can be great desire for the “clarity” of outward “single-mindedness” that you (Orthodox-popularily) attribute to monasticism.

    I think you make an error to see the monks as the ones “out of the world” while marrieds are “in” it. This error runs through our own Orthodox cultural phrasology; something that is unfortunate. (Again I repeat: Our Church’s history has culture that ‘colours’ it; we must discern the pure stream amidst brackish waters). I as a married man must *not* be of the world, though I am in it. A monk must (through his body’s limits; his nurture and nature; his work for survival, etc. etc.) must concede he is indeed very much still *in* the world, though striving not to be of it.
    As a “heuristic” I can accept the language of monks “leaving the world” but this is sub-ideal language and misleading.

    Further, I think you place too much weight on the will. Regardless why one chooses married or monastic life, one will only be saved by humility, repentance, and love of enemies (my wife and my abbot- at times! (due to my own passions)). One does not really know what he’s getting into in either case, but every Christian should discern (with help) the Cross Christ’s will save him on.
    The true Saint is a hidden reality; a treasure in the heart of God’s holy ones that God alone knows. That we have a synaxarion dominated by monks is good (and culturally expected for historical reasons), but only to teach that the extreme life is needed for any to be transfigured.

    If you wish to pray more at night, then do so, even though you are married. If you cannot because it makes you a worse husband/father, then admit your weakness before Christ with tears and receive a greater reward for this humility. Repent even of your life circumstances, that you cannot devote more time to prayers in your icon corner and receive the reward for this repentance.
    But do not reduce “being with Christ” to “being alone”. We have our thoughts as you pointed out, but I can be with Christ also in my heart, and I can even remain silence, while disciplining my sons or playing blocks with them. While adoring my wife and talking with her at the end of the day, on and on. Christ is far greater than the moments I have in my prayer corner, etc.
    I think you must go to the heart of what prayer *is* (union with Christ) and thus take every thought captive for Him, and discover that prayer and the “taught-ness” of Christ-exclusivity can be yours as a married man too.

    It is a mistake to confuse Holiness (being a saint) with any particular outward virtue or signs (easier to discern in monastics). Holiness is the crucifixion of your heart, and may be deeply hidden in the world in a married man or woman. But God surely glories all the more in this small hidden diamond!

    We may have to agree to disagree.
    I will finish by saying that: What is impossible for man is possible for God. The Holy Spirit is not limited by anything you or I have ever done; in every moment it is the time for salvation and since salvation is exclusively the work of the Holy Spirit there is nothing that can really prevent Him, where He is given room.

    In Christ’s irresistible love;
    -Mark Basil

  51. Dino Avatar
    Dino

    Mark,
    I obviously don’t disagree with most of what you say and already repeated some similar notions (e.g.: “Regardless why one chooses married or monastic life, one will only be saved by humility, repentance, and love of enemies”, or that “one does not really know what he’s getting into in either case”)

    That the conventional motive towards a spouse is pleasure shouldn’t need so much explanation though…!
    It’s perhaps worth noting that in ancient Greek the word for marriage (Γάμος) is the same as the ancient Greek word for the sexual act… (I mean, what is the percentage of people who become attracted to their wives for ‘pain’? (as in crucificial martyric suffering). No wonder there’s a party with drinks after every wedding rather than a solemn vigil and fasting.

    The salvific serving of a wife (as neighbour=Christ) and child (as neighbour=Christ), instead of one’s own needs isn’t instant, but comes later. Those of us who had a fairly grave awareness of this responsibility from the day of our wedding are not such a majority though…

    All who take the monastic vows after a solemn vigil however have to renounce possessions, family, ‘world’ instantly (as in: if I now go to Mount Athos to be tonsured I will live in a cell without seeing women, family, news, screens, hobbies, ever again and I know that from the start, some places don’t even have electricity or showers… come on)

    Another point that I was given when I was arguing the same thing many years ago (with a contemporary saint) discussing this, is that: if one who chooses marriage does it out of true martyric fervour, comparable to what one needs to become attracted to a life of the black rassa – because they desire to be crucified for the Lord – then wouldn’t they surely want to choose the monastic path instead, since it is essentially an invention to replace martyrdom in martyrdom’s absence?

    The point regarding prayer (and pure prayer) of lay (and monastics, especially hesychasts) is pretty involved, but brefly, Elder Sophrony states (what other saints have experientially known too): the impossibility of pure prayer as a enduring state without ‘Hesychia’ (total stillness). There have been cases of lay people that had this of course, but they were essentially hesychasts living in the world as monastics (more or less recluses) St Palamas describes one such case too. And as you imply, their conventional married life would suffer from that.
    If celibacy wasn’t necessary for certain things (like this), God wouldn’t need to choose a celibate for a Mother.

  52. Dean Avatar
    Dean

    Mark Basil and Dino,
    I cherish what you both have written. When my wife and I were raising our girls, both of us working, it was very hard to carve out time in the day to pray. I spent most of my prayer time in my a.m. shower and 20 minute morning commute. It was extremely difficult for me to pray at night since I was exhausted from work and other responsibilities(I would fall asleep).
    Now that I am retired it is a different story. I now have the time to devout to prayer, both intercessary and quiet prayer with the Lord. It is such a blessing. So, was God displeased with my prayer life while working and raising a family? I think not. I know how harassed mothers and fathers can feel with home, children, and work responsibilities. If you make it to retirement, it is not inactivity. It is simply different. Time passes, but I can be more in the wonder of the moment, as Father has written. Thank our good God.

  53. Dino Avatar
    Dino

    I assume no one is claiming that God is displeased with what is the appropriate thing at the appropriate time and place. But volunteering to be recruited for the front line comandoes and doing what’s appropriate there or being in the main foot soldier army at the back out of national service compulsion and doing what’s appropriate there surely has some motivational thinking behind it being contested…

  54. Christopher Avatar
    Christopher

    “…volunteering to be recruited for the front line comandoes and doing what’s appropriate there or being in the main foot soldier army at the back out of national service compulsion and doing what’s appropriate there surely has some motivational thinking behind it being contested…”

    This made me smile. Apparently you were never in the military Dino. In a relative sense commandos are superior. They are the tip of the spear, the best of the best, the most heroic and focused and…etc. etc. Yet, they can not even exist without a much larger force behind them. The guy in supply, the guy that drives the truck, the mechanics that maintain their equipment, and the recreation sargent back home who keeps his kids active on a Saturday so his wife can go shopping for school supplies. For every 1 commando, there are literally hundreds of guys that are absolutely necessary.

    You surprise me with your frame of thought on this Dino…

  55. NSP Avatar

    @Christopher,

    When you consider the doctrine of the Church being the Mystical Body of Christ, & the doctrine of the Communion of the Saints (I don’t know if the Orthodox have any parallel terms to the Church Militant, the Church Triumphant and the Church Suffering that we Catholics use) the analogy implied in the observation you made does not really contradict what Dino said.

    I’m not sure about how funding happens in the Orthodox world, but I’m guessing that many of the monasteries were built based on the patronage of and donations from well-off and powerful people in the world. So I guess that does validate what you say; however, it also implies that those in the world felt the need to finance the building of those monasteries because they understood there was a level of perfection that glorifies God more maximally that required the conducive environment of the monastic life to grow and flower, and perhaps they hoped that grace would sort of “trickle down” from those places to their lives in the world.

    However, building the monasteries is not enough, is it? Someone has to volunteer to go and live the demanding monastic life in those monasteries! This is where the point Dino makes comes in. It can’t be denied that (at least at the moment when a youngster is at the crossroads of life and decides to play for high stakes and makes a concrete attempt to find out if he really have a monastic or priestly vocation by actually walking into a monastery or a seminary) it takes a willingness to endure discomfort at the beginning to make the attempt to try out the choice of the monastic state of life and see if it is what God wants for that particular person.

    -NSP

  56. Dino Avatar
    Dino

    Christopher
    A key difference between military, marriage and monasticism is that one cannot really test married life or military life before… (traditionally) and then either commit or not commit, whereas monasticism is properly tested . You live the life of a monastic as a pre novice and then a novice for at least three years and then they send you back out into the world. If you return you can be tonsured and if you end up marrying the pedagogy of those years will probably be the best thing that ever happened to you. It’s noteworthy that those honeymoon years are regarded most highly by all monastics for all their lives.

    I second what NSP said. It also holds true about both the monastic as well as the priestly vocation. I have been in the military (being a Greek) of course I wouldn’t say i am speculating on any of this second hand my brother.

  57. Dean Avatar
    Dean

    Dino,
    When you say that after pre-novice and then novice…after 3 years you are then sent back into the world to see then if you are willing to return to monastic life…is that something peculiar to Mt. Athos? It is not a practice here at the Greek monastery we attend. I definitely can see its utility, though. I spent 4 years in the military active, and two more in the reserves. I then knew I was not wanting to make a career of it! Though those years were difficult, I don’t begrudge them…just as you say many (yourself?) look back upon those “honeymoon” novice years with fondness.

  58. Dino Avatar
    Dino

    It’s peculiar to many monasteries on Athos, dependant upon a novice’s pre-history and other factors as always.

  59. Fr. Stephen Freeman Avatar

    Christopher, Dino, et al
    I pray this is the last word on the topic: Though many things can be found in the tradition speaking about the excellence of monasticism, etc., I think it is simply inappropriate to make comparisons between the married life and the monastic life. There is little or nothing to be gained in such a conversation, and much that is harmful that can come of it. God alone will judge us.

    It was revealed to Abba Anthony in his desert that there was one who was his equal in the city. He was a doctor by profession and whatever he had beyond his needs he gave to the poor, and every day he sang the Sanctus with the angels.

    Take your pick.

  60. Agata Avatar
    Agata

    Father,
    I think it was St. Macarios (when he thought he attained sainthood) that was sent by God to meet a shoe maker in Alexandria. The man was very surprised and confused that the Saint was sent to him to learn something… After they conversed a little, the shoe maker finally shared with the Saint what he does and thinks all day: as he works and looks at people passing by all day, he marvels how much better than him they must be, and how they will be saved ahead of him.

    Another “pick” for us, both married and not… 🙂

  61. Karen Avatar
    Karen

    Good word, Father.

    Long conversation! I remember that account, too, Agata. Instructive for us all. Likely there are many like it–even as Fr. Stephen has recounted.

    As usual, I am experiencing that glitch with the site function that recognizes the page breaks in the comments threads and takes you to where you want to go on the thread from the recent comments links. That, I suppose, is an indication to me that I am long past the point where I need to make a contribution to the conversation or follow it! Back to my “day job”!

  62. NSP Avatar

    @Agata & Father,

    Oh, yes, I recall reading that story a few years ago. In fact, I was so struck by that story I have it bookmarked from multiple sources:

    St. Antony & the Cobbler – an amateur translation from the Greek

    St. Antony & the Cobbler – From the book “Holiness Past and Present”

    St. Antony & the Cobbler – from the book “Prayer of the Heart”

    -NSP

  63. juliania Avatar
    juliania

    Esmee, to be charitable, I don’t think Dr. Siewers understood Metropolitan Ware’s Foreword at all. I couldn’t go further into The Wheel, and I’m glad of that, because I noted the points at which the foreword made exception to the articles therein, and I do not believe his remarks to be out of place. To me it seemed that he was going as close to a sympathetic recognition of the problems faced by a homosexual lifestyle as he could, whilst pointing out where an Orthodox view is different. He did so, not by means of an Aristotelian form of address, but relying on Scripture and the important quality of personhood. If you want to go to the philosophers, he’s more like Plato, conversing with other living human beings that have character and lives to live.

    Assuredly he brings to the table understandings that are his own, but he is not, I believe, supporting a homosexual lifestyle or marriage. That is a misinterpretation of his address, the arguments of which I did not recognize in Dr. Siewers’ analysis.

  64. Dino Avatar
    Dino

    Father,
    I certainly agree that such conversations on a blog can be of little benefit – it’s the sort of thing that is desperately sought only personally and by few individuals who happen to be actually including/considering that choice for the rest of their earthly sojourn (seeing celibacy as an actively chosen option for preparation for their true birth -of their death- “putting on black”, as well as the conventional default option of marriage, or the birth of life –of their offspring– “putting on white”). Seeing it as if there might be a ‘judgement of God’ for one’s choice either way (which, lamentably, many seem to misunderstand and challenge this conversation as) –from the outside– is gravely missing the point: it is solely a looked-for elucidation for certain persons – few individuals. They are after the Father’s will for their lives, and yet, need to know that it is their will that He respects on this matter and He will bless whichever choice these few individuals choose without ‘judgement’ and theirwill is what needs a foundation of informed understanding with many such questions answered first. Enough has been said for such a platform no doubt though!

  65. Dee of St Hermans Avatar
    Dee of St Hermans

    Dino,
    There is a way to encourage the monastic life without having to compare or disparage one or the other. Unfortunately, you appear to be doing the latter and not the former.

  66. Dino Avatar
    Dino

    Dee of St Hermans

    I do not recall disparaging marriage anywhere, (though I know some patristic writings seem to) it would be sawing off the branch I sit on. Fathers I mentioned (like Chrysostom) manage to “walk on eggshells” in a peculiar way: we could accuse them of disparagement and they could then accuse us of fanciful sensitivity. Maybe I fall into that…?

    I’ve caught myself too, however, interpreting descriptions and comparisons of states other than my own (especially when compared to what sounds like my own state) as threats or disparagements. It is a mistake I recognise and beg to be freed from though.

    I can only ask forgiveness to those that perceived this as intended that way (while also thanking the ones that showed appreciation & perceived it the other way).

  67. Simon Avatar
    Simon

    I read Metr. K. Ware’s comments on homosexual marriage. I think his thoughts are on the mark.

  68. Karen Avatar
    Karen

    “The great enemy of clear language is insincerity. When there is a gap between one’s real and one’s declared aims, one turns as if it were instinctively to long words and exhausted idioms, like a cuttlefish squirting out ink.” (George Orwell)

    Sounds a bit too uncomfortably close to home vis a vis the articles that occasioned this post.

Leave a Reply

Your email address will not be published. Required fields are marked *


Subscribe to blog via email

Support the work

Your generous support for Glory to God for All Things will help maintain and expand the work of Fr. Stephen. This ministry continues to grow and your help is important. Thank you for your prayers and encouragement!


Latest Comments


Read my books

Everywhere Present by Stephen Freeman

Listen to my podcast



Categories


Archives