Talking to Fish

I have sleep apnea. When I fall asleep, I stop breathing at certain points. According to the sleep study I endured, it happens over 90 times an hour. Sleep apnea can kill you. And so, I sleep with a “sleep machine,” a device with a mask through which a positive air pressure is maintained so that you don’t stop breathing. It was a godsend. When I visited Mt. Athos last year, one of the more difficult practicalities was the need for my machine wherever I went. I bought a portable one, capable of being hauled around in a backpack. It was only an issue one night when the monastery of St. Panteleimon shut down the electricity when it was time for “lights out.” Go to bed. Don’t breathe. My wife has the same problem. I laugh because at night we strap on our sleep masks and lie there like pilot and co-pilot.

This little vignette of my medical life is my way of illustrating a certain scenario. What happens when we can only live our lives through the wonders of a medical intervention? For some, it might be as difficult as kidney dialysis, or as inconvenient as insulin shots. Life is altered, but it continues. I am deeply grateful for medical intervention, both for my night’s sleep, my lack of a gall bladder, and the stent that keeps my heart functioning (getting old!). But what happens when an entire society and culture is predicated on medical intervention, when what becomes “natural,” is, in fact, artificial? I would never want to suggest to anyone that my apnea should become normative.

I can imagine this same scenario if human life were spread to other planets. Mars, that likeliest of candidates, is bathed in deadly radiation. It would become a cancer camp in short order. So, human beings would rarely go outside, other than with extreme protection. It seems glamorous in a movie. But movies only last for a couple of hours. Day after day, lifetime after lifetime, in an environment that makes our polar regions seem like paradise is not a true strategy for colonization. It ain’t happening.

Modern culture, with its economic and family arrangements is increasingly an example of artificiality. The so-called sexual revolution, touted as a change in choices, lifestyles and personal freedom, is, in reality, a massive intervention into human life by technologies that change the very nature of sex and distort how we see it and use it. For almost all human history, sex between men and women within a certain age range, generally led to the conception of a child. It’s what our bodies were built for. We are fearfully and wonderfully made, such that the right actions between two persons result in the creation of another life.

The philosophies and arguments that we now call the sexual revolution are largely the result of new forms of birth control, particularly the use of artificial hormones, and their popularization. Oddly, as recently as 1928, almost all Protestant denominations in America shared the condemnation of birth control with the traditional Churches such as Catholics and Orthodox. The arguments surrounding family planning were initially the work of ardent eugenicists who saw science as an important tool for breeding a better, healthier race.

With the implementation and popularization of medical intervention, human sexual practices became estranged from human biology. We were no longer “slaves” to our bodies. As such, children became lifestyle choices for people who wanted that sort of thing. The family slowly became reconfigured, not by necessity or nature, but simply by the whims of human desire. The legalization of abortion in the Western world in the latter half of the 20th century added an element of violence to the equation. The failure of birth control had a sure and certain remedy.

And so, when we now discuss “sexuality” in our culture, we have in mind a new thing (not the thing that human beings have lived with throughout all previous history). What might have once been an anomaly and an exception (childless sexuality) is now the only form that we consider normative – children being little more than accessories after the fact. And with the normalization of this technologically invented childless sexuality, all forms of childless sexual behavior appear normative. If sexual activity is abstracted from the procreation of children, then how does it differ from any other form of sexual activity, including those that under any conceivable set of circumstances could never produce a child – or even fail to produce a child. A same-sex couple cannot be described as suffering the tragedy of infertility, for fertility has nothing to do with their relationship.

I mean no attacks on anyone, least of all those whose desires point them in infertile directions. Rather, I mean to include us all as a culture that has willingly made one of its most fundamental human practices into an artificial abstraction. Everything about our sexual lives, other than the most obvious, becomes the point of our relationships. Magazine covers blatantly advertise articles on improved orgasms (and such). It is, oddly, a topic that is never once addressed in all of Christian tradition or the Scriptures – because it’s not the point.

If we lived at the bottom of the ocean, life would be defined by aqualungs and their use and upkeep. It is hard for people to live as fish. We are in danger of re-imagining the normal world to be a place in which such odd interventions are normal, where the procreative life becomes a disease to be controlled.

I write all of this during a time in which sexuality discussions have burst afresh in the Orthodox world (thankfully, only in a tiny corner). My point is that no one writing after about 1960 is competent to suggest changes within the configuration of human sexual understanding. It is like fish trying to discuss life on the land. We haven’t been living on the land now for nearly sixty years. Little wonder that the older stories from our land-dwelling ancestors seem so strange to so many.

About Fr. Stephen Freeman

Fr. Stephen is a retired Archpriest of the Orthodox Church in America, Pastor Emeritus of St. Anne Orthodox Church in Oak Ridge, Tennessee. He is also author of Everywhere Present: Christianity in a One-Storey Universe, and Face to Face: Knowing God Beyond Our Shame, as well as the Glory to God podcast series on Ancient Faith Radio.



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Comments

269 responses to “Talking to Fish”

  1. Dean Avatar
    Dean

    Thanks Kevin,
    Hope I was not too harsh. Yep, we are all different. We were not cradle Orthodox, yet love kids (don’t think having lots of kids was a Protestant expectation for us). You know there are “cradles” with few children or none. God guide you on your journey.

  2. Stephen Griswold Avatar
    Stephen Griswold

    I do not believe that Orthodox children grow up with a parental and church driven ideal of large families. I think they grow up with an example that they know and are desiring of. I know large Protestant families as well and the children of those families are desirous of having a family that matches their positive experience of childhood.

  3. Stephen Griswold Avatar
    Stephen Griswold

    Agata
    Amen. Grand children are even better and great grand children are the hope of life.

  4. Jeff Avatar
    Jeff

    I did it. I finally got through all the comments…

    One recurring thought: Submit to Christ. Do not submit to your image of Christ, but submit to what you have grasped thus far and to His timing of the continued revelation of Himself. As Christ is everywhere present, there is an abundance of channels through which this revelation is made available. Nor must I decide what constitutes revelation. Oh the patience and humility this requires!

    Another thought: it seems a depressing irony that on the one hand, sexual activity (or who one’s potential “opposite” might be) seems to hold primacy in the search for identity, while at the same time it holds no more sacred a place than which set of dishes one might prefer or which car one might buy next. Actually these things might hold more weight. The casualness of sexual activity, as referenced in the comment about Aldus Huxley, seems to be more on par with a decision about which rerun we should watch tonight. And yet again, this casualness is ironic. The act certainly becomes banal, but those involved can’t help but attach significant meaning to it. However, there is no one meaning that anyone in these scenarios seems to bring to these hook ups. It’s anybody’s guess. “They all did what was right in there own eyes,” and confusion and despair reign.

    A perfect storm wrought by one seeking whom he may devour.

    The act of sex is part of life. And while it has its place, it does not deserve the primacy it has been given in our time (or any other).

    “For in Christ, all the fullness of Diety lives in bodily form. And you have been given fullness in Christ who is head over every power and authority.”

  5. Nes Avatar
    Nes

    The terms “feminine” and “masculine” only lose meaning when they reference transitory social norms. They gain meaning when they reference consistent bodily realities.

    Bodies are complicated. They grow, change, entropy, die. We perceive them rightly and wrongly, sometimes at the same time, because our perception is severely limited. What we can perceive is that we are sexed, and sexed to a particular end: bringing forth new life. What is revealed to us is that “God created them male and female, and blessed them”.

    We cannot ignore our bodies as central to our identity, because they are a kind of revelation: an insight into who we are and, subsequently, who God is.

    Any kind of desire, sexual or otherwise, always needs to be understood in light of the end that such an attraction comes forth from. God has given us eyes not just to see, but to understand. Look, then, at the phenomenon of sexual attraction. What do you see? A purpose: Such a purpose reveals deep truths about the nature of the universe. Life begets life, forms are mixed and produce distinct forms, beauty bursts forth from the mingling of difference, etc. A phenomenon like same sex attraction comes from the very same desire made to reveal that beauty, but its ends are frustrated, not by will but by reality itself. When we attempt to “overcome” reality with our will, we miss the very point of reality: to reveal God. We, “trade the truth of God” for a lie, and substitute our own reality, which reveals nothing to us, for the reality that God has given us as gift.

    Our bodies are icons, they are a kind of revelation. We may serve them as our idols, or we may serve God with them as his own.

  6. Kevin Avatar
    Kevin

    Agata,
    Interesting wisdom from Lululemon. If only I’d bought their stock last year… Well, that’s water under the bridge. However, I’ve seen people having orgasms and I’ve seen people with children. They ain’t screaming for ecstasy in Walmart.

  7. Matth Avatar
    Matth

    Byron,

    I’ve seen that claim, that marriage and monasticism are two sides of the same coin, but I find it hard to be true. I’m willing to be corrected by the Orthodox faith, but I find it unlikely to be the case. Perhaps in a narrow way, in that both are two sacred paths of learning obedience, but celibacy is definitely preferred.

    Not that marriage is bad, but it cannot possibly be the equal of celibacy. Marriage is foundational to human society, as St. John Chrysostom says, and there is a definite sacramental theology of marriage, as expounded first by Christ himself and St. Paul in Ephesians and Corinthians.

    But that doesn’t mean that it is treated in the same way as celibacy at any point in our tradition.

    Marriage is the continuation of life, an icon of the Church, an allowance for Man’s fallen nature, but it is rarely if ever discussed in terms of a preferred conduit for one’s salvation. See St. Paul: “Because there is so much fornication, let each man have his wife.” Or St. John Chrysostom: “So there remains only one reason for marriage, to avoid fornication, and the remedy is offered for this very purpose.” These are not enthusiastic endorsements of marriage, but (as I said) allowances.

  8. Jeff Avatar
    Jeff

    So, yeah, not all the comments…Missed the discussion on children. I should have hit refresh when I picked this back up this evening.

    Oh, and Simon, I’ve thought of that too, the way it says, “Simon says.” I get a chuckle out of that. Thanks for being here. I like that your overriding desire seems to be to engage and not to adhere to an agenda as such. It’s easier to read a dissenting or objecting comment when it is offered in humility. Not that my comfort or ease are paramount! But, hopefully the sentiment is plain. Cheers

  9. Agata Avatar
    Agata

    Kevin,
    I sold my Lulu at $4 – years ago, before they got big- my heart sinks every time I remember that… 🙂

    Well, you may be right about poor people with children at Walmart, but I have seen (experienced) people desperately seeking opportunities for orgasms and pleasures and self-satisfying experiences in their 50-ties, 60-ties and later years, and that is even more pathetic, sad and often destructive….That’s just my experience and opinion on this subject…

  10. Fr. Stephen Freeman Avatar

    Kevin,
    We do not have an expectation of a “bunch” of kids. Few Orthodox have more than 2 or 3. Some of what you’ve said is a sad caricature of what the Church says and how it is lived out by faithful Orthodox. But, thank God for those who are having children – without them you’ll not have a chance at anything in your old age – like social security, etc. Europe is actually in a population crisis – the birth rate is below that of replacement. It is one of the reasons Europe will eventually be majority Muslim and non-European. Modernity has left them without much of a reason to exist, to have children, to do any of the stuff that people normally have done throughout history – except consume things until they run out. It is the end of their civilization.

  11. Fr. Stephen Freeman Avatar

    Matth,
    There is much content in praise of marriage and its salvific role within Orthodoxy. Reading more broadly is of great use.

  12. Fr. Stephen Freeman Avatar

    Kevin,
    I’m sorry that you lack the heart for fatherhood. It is a wound of the soul. But we all have many wounds in various ways. Our wounds do not, however, make very good arguments. They color how we see the world. And, reading your comments actually feels sad – like a lack of heart, somehow. I pray God grant you an abundance of grace.

    I have four adult children, and buried a fifth. They are joy and sadness, reward and sorrow. I know that their salvation’s fullness will postdate my demise…that I’ll have to die in hope for them. All of them are strong Christians, which I credit to their mother’s prayers and example. We were married for 5 years before the first was born. My marriage, in many ways, began with the birth of that child. I did not know it until after the fact. Before it was over (the child years), I would have loved as many as God would give. I love children – even the one’s in Walmart. They are a delight and a joy – and frequently serve as a measure of the human heart.

    You seem to have a lot of misconceptions about people and families with lots of kids. We have a lousy welfare system (just about the worst in the First World) and bad schools. We have lost the proper love of children and become very sad in that regard. But the societies that have lost their love of families are dying out…because, in fact, they don’t really have any reason to live. It’s very sad.

  13. Simon Avatar
    Simon

    What I hear Kevin saying is this: That short of abstinence in marriage and only having sex for reproduction , without birth control large families are inevitable. I dont know that that is true, but that is what I hear.

    Fr, I hear you saying that not having a heart for fatherhood stems from a wound. If Ive understood correctly, then I would ask for elaboration because it isnt obvious to me that is true. Most men back in the day were
    not fathers. They didnt change diapers. They didnt feed the kids. They didnt stay up with the kids at night when the kids were screaming bloody murder because they were teething. They didnt clean up after the kids. The men worked a job, they paid bills, came home and played with the kid, had sex with their wives and went to bed: Rinse and repeat.

    I love my son dearly. He is my life’s one great true love. But being married with a child is the worst experience of my life. I had a vision for what I wanted to do with my life, who I wanted to be and I was making that vision for my life a reality. But my family that I love so dearly has ended me. If I succeed in my endeavors (which is at this point is logistically impossible) it will not be because of my family, but in spite of them. The person I knew myself to be is all but a thing of the past. I am not exaggerating when I say that every day I mourn the loss of who I was. It isnt a sacrifice I know how to gladly make.

  14. SC Avatar
    SC

    Bless, Father.
    Thanks for your always thoughtful and helpful articles. Were you giving a nod to St Antony of Padua (13 June) and his “sermon to the fish” in your title or was it serendipitous?

  15. Burro (Mule) Avatar
    Burro (Mule)

    I am no fan of contraception, even of the least interventional methods, but I can see the point. Excuse me if I am way out of line, Father, but do not the periodic episodes of fasting, during which married couples are supposed to refrain from intimate activity, serve as kind of firewall against having huge families?

    Also, child mortality is lower now. Maybe this is a part of living with our technology, but I don’t think anyone voluntarily wants to go back to the days where half of the children born died before their second birthday. Something needs to counteract that.

  16. Dino Avatar
    Dino

    Burro (Mule),
    Some might challenge this, but, don’t shoot the messenger as they say!
    Elder Sophrony Sakharov answered the purely theoretical question of ‘what if we all became monastics?’ simultaneously answering the question of overpopulation due to infant mortality rate decrease, and the one you posed.
    He more or less described how historically God kept decreeing increasing austerity in the matter of marital relations –inversely shadowing the rise of population. So in the most ancient times polygamy was blessed, then certain rules started to restrict it until we arrived at monogamy, later (following the Divine Incarnation), not bringing children into the world ceased from being a source of shame, subsequently stricter rules (regarding two brothers marrying two sisters, for example, and others) were introduced, then an increase in the monastic population was witnessed, as well as the rising regard of celibacy in the Church.
    God’s ideal plan for the end of the world and His Second coming therefore, could be contemplated as just this: every human person eventually in the future becoming celibate/consecrated in the exclusive devotion to God and the world therefore remaining without progeny; however, we know that the world will not end like that but, alas, like this: “the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.” (2 Peter 3:10)
    That’s what he had to say.

  17. Fr. Stephen Freeman Avatar

    Simon,
    I would describe it as a wound whether it were rare or common. Many things wound the soul and make it difficult to be or become what is the fullness of our humanity. Some wounds can be quite subtle, but remain unhealed and hinder our lives. In this comment, it seems to me that you are describing some cultural phenomenon (how men behaved at a certain time) as though that were the norm – and an example of unwounded manhood.

    American Bourgeois culture (of any decade) is not, nor has it been, an example of unwounded life. It was often a deeply wounded existence.

    An example: American male culture is deeply enmeshed in shame. Male/male relationships bristle with mutual shaming. We are rarely able to be vulnerable and can be highly reactive. This is just one of the manifestations of sin in our lives – but much of it would probably be described as “normal.” It is not. Sin is quite common, but it is not normal.

    How do we get wounded? We can be wounded through failures in nurture, through injuries from others, even through propensities within ourselves (who knows how they got there). I make a distinction between being wounded and being broken. Wounded is easier to heal.

    I have noticed that, most often, those desiring children come from families with children that are happy places – though, I’ve seen some who deeply wanted children to somehow get right what was gotten wrong in their own situation. Many are wounded by broken families – a parent who is estranged, etc. Interestingly, I have more than once heard a monastic abbot say that it is difficult to find good candidates for the monastic life today because there are so many broken homes. Just like a healthy marriage, the best monastics come from healthy family backgrounds. Monasticism is not a place for the deeply broken or wounded to be easily healed.

    When I do pre-marital counseling, an important set of questions and explorations surround the families of origin. It is our family of origin that we carry within us (in some manner) and bring to a marriage. The marriage will often reveal that inner family when it was completely unexpected beforehand. We talk about it, explore it, and look at potential problems and things that might help and be useful. Having done that now for 38 years, I find it to be on target and highly predictive. In one manner or another, I have had to confront “my daddy’s demons” (I have a blog article on it). They’ve been both easier for me and harder for me – but, oddly – my experience in dealing with them was healing for both myself and my father. That he died a practicing Christian – Orthodox, no less – was, in part, a manifestation of how we both grew and healed some of those wounds.

    One strategy that is not surprising regarding wounds is to find a manner of living in which we do not confront them. We bury them or dodge them. It can make for a less tumultuous existence – but one in which so much of who we are is muted and unattended. It is possible for wounds to be healed and for brokenness to be changed.

  18. Dino Avatar
    Dino

    Paula AZ,
    I noticed your question to me. I think I answered the first -partly- when responding to Michael and the second one (about blessed union of man and woman in marriage and blessed celibacy as the sole two classical paths) is fairly simple: The Church has ‘two marriages’ that make one’s life ecclesial through Her blessing: the high calling of the marriage of man and woman, and the higher calling of monastic marriage of soul and Christ.
    Without either of these permanent commitments [the “above nature” notion of permanence is significant] , one is living a life that is not yet officially committed to permanence through the Church and therefore still, pardon the strange and strong expression, Ecclesiastically not ‘officially authorised’…

  19. Fr. Stephen Freeman Avatar

    Burro,
    Many things work regarding family planning – and some interventional methods are less problematic than others – but that’s a very private conversation that I don’ want to get into on the blog. Modern Americans have unreal sexual expectations, fed by an insane culture, that are completely out of touch with our bodies. We are crazy people.

  20. Fr. Stephen Freeman Avatar

    SC,
    I was unaware of the feast day.

  21. Dino Avatar
    Dino

    Father,
    I understood Elder Sophrony as describing a theoretical ideal in this movement (of the Church’s commandments from polygamy to celibacy) that obviously goes contrary to the historical reality (described sometimes in scripture too).
    He wasn’t speculating on historical realities, therefore, but merely on the “never-having been realized”.
    He started his response to the question from a person in the audience: “what if we all became monastics then!?” by saying, ‘this is a purely theoretical supposition which has an equally theoretical answer.’
    Parenthetically, I also made a vague connection with v Maximus’ notion of gradual ‘movement’ from multiplicity to unity, from sense perception to beholding the principles of intelligible realities, from “practice” to “contemplation” (spiritual insight of the highest order).

  22. Fr. Stephen Freeman Avatar

    Dino,
    The sexualization of our culture has made the mystical apprehension of celibacy from earlier times perhaps the most foreign part of those cultures. Modern leftovers such as RC priesthood has degenerated into a legalistic burden. It is a mystery that is very, very difficult for us to understand – and very, very easy to misunderstand.

  23. Paula AZ Avatar
    Paula AZ

    It is no coincidence that once again the “sons” of God are the ones giving voice to a profoundly deep topic…what is it like to be a man? what is sexuality? what is the purpose of gender? I simply want to remind the sons, in the midst of all the pondering, that us daughters still look to you for protection, guidance, and support. If some women deny this it is a result of pain, hurt and disappointment. I’m telling you, deep down inside women desire, want desperately, the protection and love of a man. That they haven’t received a true union of love in this fractured world is the reason for diversion from ‘the natural’ (manifest in degrees, from resentment of men, all the way to the extreme militant feminists). The source of all this diversion is self-love. The consequence for women in rejecting God for the pleasures of the world (which are insatiable) was established from the beginning…
    ““I will greatly multiply your sorrow and your conception;
    In pain you shall bring forth children;
    Your desire shall be for your husband,
    And he shall rule over you.”

    What is the woman to do when the men out there are trying to figure out ‘who they are’? What is so hard to figure out? I am not scolding here…I’m saying, in the meantime, while the man is wondering what the heck his place is in this world, the women are floundering. Where do we go? Who do we look to? For crying out loud…this issue does not have anything to do with genitals!!! Come on now!

    St. Maximos says something very revealing…he speaks about 5 divisions/polarities that are the consequence of sin/separation from God. The very first one, the one that must first be overcome/transcended if we are to have any further movement toward renewal in the true image of God, is the division between man and woman. I quote from my notes:
    “First division to transcend… is between man and woman…by means of a life free of passions, lived according to the common principle (logos, kindred nature). The division into genders was supposed to be transcended, simply by revealing the human being.”
    Now please, I do not profess to understand fully what St. Maximos is saying here, but I think it is a good place to start. That is why I have asked Father Stephen and Dino, when they touch upon this subject, to expound a bit more. For the sake of clarity, for the sake of taking off the blinders and seeing how far removed we are from our intended ‘being’, we must discuss issues of gender and sexuality. And also we need to know when enough is enough. We need direction. We need guidance. I sit here wondering…and I have to do something to get answers…I reach out looking for answers… groping is a good description. I’m not complaining, as I find the search and the portion God reveals very satisfying.
    I don’t know what else to say. I too am looking for answers. I know Who is “the” answer…but many things are just not clear.
    The arguments for tolerance of homosexuality is for the birds…see, it led into one’s justification for being childless…how selfish!….Lord, what a mess….how far removed from You we are….

  24. Byron Avatar
    Byron

    Matth,

    I just wanted to say that I think Dino has answered your last post. I wasn’t trying to ignore it or anything! Catching up on posts now….

  25. Matth Avatar
    Matth

    Father,

    I know that the tradition praises marriage. St. John Chrysostom himself praises marriage many times. The marriage service of the Church is a celebratory one. Marriage is a good thing, and the tradition of the faith is unequivocal about that.

    I also never made the comparison with monasticism, that is something that Byron introduced to the discussion in his response. I don’t know, nor do I really care, what our tradition says about marriage when compared to monasticism. I am married with children. It’s unlikely I will ever be a monk. It doesn’t have anything to do with me or my salvation at this point.

    But I do believe that our faith is clear and unequivocal that celibacy is preferred to non-celibacy. That’s what I said in my original comment, that’s the point I tried to make in my response to Byron, and that’s really all I’m saying now. From St. Paul to the Church Fathers to the testimony of the saints’ lives, the universal preference is for celibacy. Even in the abstinence rules surround the fasts and communion, we see that celibacy is prized. And my reason for quote those specific lines from St. Paul and St. John Chrysostom was to highlight the fact that they saw marriage as most valuable for those who struggle with celibacy, as a path to teach chastity.

    None of this is to say that our faith looks down on marriage, because it obviously doesn’t. My original comment was in the context of sexual preference, and whether or not that’s something God cares about. My point was to draw attention to the fact that our tradition prizes celibacy over non-celibacy, that marriage is an allowance made to fallen nature, and that when compared to celibacy, the great saints tend to be less than enthusiastic about marriage (although when they speak solely of marriage, they are often laudatory of it).

    As with so many things in Orthodoxy, the stance of the Church is somewhat paradoxical. I’m fine with that, but even though I’m not as well read as other commentators on this site, I am confident that I am correct on the central point I am making. If I am wrong, I am open to being shown by the tradition of Orthodoxy itself, but I have a very specific point so merely demonstrating that Orthodoxy views marriage as good for one’s soul (which it does in the specific and common case of those who struggle with celibacy) is not the same as demonstrating that Orthodoxy views marriage and celibacy as two sides of the same coin.

  26. Byron Avatar
    Byron

    PaulaAZ,

    Sometimes scolding is a good thing! We too easily muddy the issue with all the information that is thrown in every direction. Being human is not as hard as we make it.

  27. Fr. Stephen Freeman Avatar

    Paula AZ,
    Well said. It is an “our” problem. We cannot be healed without one another. Fr. Thomas Hopko, of blessed memory, made a point about male saints that, almost without exception, there was a woman in their life. For some it was family, others a friend, others, still, a spouse, etc. He gave many examples. I would even hasten to add, that God has given us the gift of His Mother such that even in the most obscure circumstances there is a “She” in our lives. Men are in a terribly crippled state today – for many and varied reasons. Most Christians in America have no relationship with the saints, particularly with Mary. They have poor models, broken homes, etc., a lacking of all the things necessary to get this right. It is a matter for prayer…much prayer.

  28. Fr. Stephen Freeman Avatar

    Byron,
    It can be harder than we think…like trying to swim with weights on your ankles. But it is not scolding that accomplishes much…it is love…of which there is far too little.

  29. Fr. Stephen Freeman Avatar

    I should remember to say, I have also seen young men and women getting this right – or doing incredibly despite all the odds against them. My parish (no thanks to me) is filled with children who love God and are the joy for us all. I have, at this stage in my life, become a grandfather in my congregation…an old man who enjoys the love of children. May God keep them all!

  30. María Gutiérrez Avatar
    María Gutiérrez

    “Europe is actually in a population crisis … Modernity has left them without much of a reason to exist, to have children, to do any of the stuff that people normally have done throughout history – except consume things until they run out. It is the end of their civilization”
    Father, please, pray for us,
    María

  31. Ananias Avatar
    Ananias

    Speaking as a male in his 40’s who is both single and a virgin, I find in the Orthodox church an oasis of sanity in the desert of utter insanity. This is especially true where sexuality is concerned.

    It is many of the saints that have given me comfort in my situation when society says I am abnormal. Society pressures me to run out and quickly rid myself of my virginity; to modernity’s view of sexuality, virginity is a stigma and anathema.

    I am thankful that the Orthodox do not have this view. I never realized it until Fr. Stephen said it, but the Theotokos is especially a part of this. Her status as the Virgin Mother of Christ is rarely talked about in Protestantism, and some even disregard it as a metaphor or parable rather than a fact. I find that as I grow away from Protestantism, it becomes easier to remain celibate because of the saints and the Theotokos; it becomes easier because many saints, including many male saints, were virgins and celibate. St. John the Theologian is one such example.

    It is from these Saints that I draw strength to stay on the path of celibacy. With their help, their prayers, the path is solid and clear before me and they guide me through their prayers. Without them, I think that I would be lost in the dark insanity of the world.

  32. tess Avatar
    tess

    Thank God that in His Orthodox Church, He teaches us both what it means to be singular and in communion.

    Recently I’ve noticed how ubiquitously how we all generalize from our own experience— and how antithetical that is to communion. It’s so easy to imagine a society full of people who incarnate the projection of all of my opinions and desires (i.e. “I feel such-and-such a way, therefore other people must think and feel the same”). But it is the truth that God has made each one of us as a unique phenomenon in the history of the universe. So, in a very real way, it is entirely unproductive to talk about “men’s brains” and “women’s brains”— or really, any other grouping or rearrangement of people. There is Bob, there is Sue, there’s Aayisha and Jamal— and as each one is made in the image of God, each one would take an eternity to become more themselves, and an eternity to get to know face-to-face.

    After many years of reading both parenting and relationship books, I came to the realization that the reason that they all fall short every time is because there is no marriage that is like mine, and there are no parent/child relationships that are like mine. We are unique individuals in relationship, which means the relationship itself is a unique creature. I’m sure that seems so obvious, but for me it was quite freeing.

    Paula AZ– I see and appreciate your desire for the truth. But I must give you a little bit of push-back. To be a woman does not necessarily entail a desire for “protection, guidance and support,” and to disagree on that premise does not make a woman a militant feminist who is crippled by her wounds.

  33. Dino Avatar
    Dino

    Matth,
    I agree 100% with your last comment.
    The “anxiety-free” [1 Corinthians 7:32], direct route (monasticism), and the “troubled” [1 Corinthians 7:28], twisty path (matrimony), both lead to one and the same destination.
    “Let every man abide in the same calling wherein he was called.”

  34. Agata Avatar
    Agata

    Dino,
    Thank you for summarizing Elder Sophrony’s view of the progression of the world… I love it.

    Whenever we talk about the current state of the world (all the issues Father brings up in his wonderful blog articles), I always remember the words of one confessor for me: Remember that God has put us here and now because He knows it is the best time and place for our Salvation.

    It’s worth to look at our life from this perspective. All who read and comment on this blog know about the Orthodox Church and what it expects of us (or at least we are learning). Some things may be adjusted for our life by our confessor or spiritual father because of the specific life situation (as Fr. Tom Hopko did so beautifully, but never compromising the teaching of the Church).

    How we use this knowledge – for our salvation – is entirely up to us.
    As Father Stephen once said here on the blog (it’s one of my favorite quotes):

    “….
    There will be no legal defense before God. There can be none. What takes place between us and God is entirely a matter of our being, our existence. No words or explanations, no reasoning. Just who and what you are. That’s all there is.”

  35. Fr. Stephen Freeman Avatar

    I want to underline the final point of the blog article. Our culture has decoupled important aspects of our existence as male and female – one result being that there is a fair amount of confusion and flux in our understanding. It makes it almost impossible to say things in a proper, balanced manner. I’ve heard Orthodox teachers who are so strong on the procreation angle that they completely dismiss the unitive function and hold positions that are simply rigid and damaging (reflecting not the tradition so much as their own personalities in my opinion).

    The wholeness of the Church’s teaching is hard for us to apprehend because we ourselves are not whole. And that is the point of the article. We are like fish talking about life on the land. To a certain degree, we have blown a lot of bubbles at each other in the discussion. 🙂

    Because we are in this position, we must be kind and gentle with others, giving as much help as possible, but also as much freedom as is consistent with our health. I have said before that I do not like this topic – because it is almost impossible to get it right – or, even when getting it right, to be heard rightly. We need God’s help in this part of our cultural life!

  36. Paula AZ Avatar
    Paula AZ

    Well thanks Tess! Perhaps I generalize too much in stating a woman’s desire for protection, guidance and support. It is within my bones that I believe that though. And I preface that it is in union, not subservience…”the two shall become one”. But listen, that you do not agree does not make you a militant feminist…yes, I agree. I was speaking of the result of the disintegration of “the two” more than the labeling of a particular individual.

  37. Paula AZ Avatar
    Paula AZ

    Thank you Father. Oh boy…what a test of my strength to be kind and gentle in the midst of this topic. Yes, God help us!

  38. Dee of St Hermans Avatar
    Dee of St Hermans

    Fr Stephen,
    It’s indeed hard for me to witness this discussion on this topic in this culture. I was born into a family whose culture was matrilineal and matrilocal. The traditional life invoked a spiritual communion in a couple and in a family that was indicative of that life, which as far as I know, is now almost gone if it still exists at all. I’m grateful for those early experiences because they give meaning to the Theotokos in ways I rarely hear nor read here or elsewhere in this culture. It also provides a deeper understanding of the matrilineal focus embedded in the Hebraic culture, admittedly seen only with very fine brush strokes in the Bible, but still there if one knows how to look.

  39. Fr. Stephen Freeman Avatar

    Dee,
    Yes, you are quite right. There are many caricatures of “patriarchy” when reading history, that misses many things. I like my fish metaphor. With that, I want to think that living within the Church, slowly, slowly, I am learning to breathe air again, to find out what legs are for, etc. But slowly…

  40. Ananias Avatar
    Ananias

    Paula AZ and Tess,

    My priest put the following quote in the announcements recently. It really changed my whole perspective of the issue regarding wives obeying their husband and marriage itself.

    Quote:
    When we speak of the wife obeying the husband, we normally think of obedience in military or political terms:the husband giving orders, and the wife obeying them. But while this type of obedience may be appropriate in the army, it is ridiculous in the intimate relationship of marriage. The obedient wife does not wait for orders. Rather, she tries to discern her husband’s needs and feelings, and responds in love. When she sees her husband is weary, she encourages him to rest; when she sees him agitated, she soothes him; when he is ill, she nurses and comforts him; when he is happy and elated, she shares his joy. Yet such obedience should not be confined to the wife; the husband should be obedient in the same way. When she is weary, he should relieve her of her work; when she is sad, he should cherish her, holding her gently in his arms: when she is filled with good cheer, he should also share her good cheer. Thus a good marriage is not a matter of one partner obeying the other, but of each other. — St. John Chrysostom
    End Quote

    This was the marriage my parents had; my priest and his wife had this marriage as well. In fact, the majority of marriages in my parish are this way. Every successful marriage I have observed has been this way. And every unsuccessful or unhappy marriage I have observed has been the exact opposite.
    It is the way marriage is meant to be, a partnership of two people, sharing life through love.

  41. tess Avatar
    tess

    Thanks for being so kind, Paula. 🙂 I’m really glad you didn’t misinterpret me, because I share much with you philosophically.

    My own history often urges me to speak up with the things that I wish I had heard and understood many years ago. I guess you could say that I post for my younger self. 🙂 (Perhaps indulging a Dr. Who ‘time can be rewritten’ fantasy.)

    Ananias, I really like that St. John Chrysostom quote. Praise God that the Church has preserved his voice– “Grace shining forth from your lips like a beacon has enlightened the whole universe!”

    Father Stephen, thanks for this article. I’m currently rereading Evdokimov’s “Sacrament of Love,” which is serendipitous– talk about learning how to breathe air again, and not just blow bubbles!

  42. Jeff Avatar
    Jeff

    Matth,
    “…marriage is an allowance made to fallen nature…” When I read this statement, I immediately thought of the earth’s population and how God intended to fill it with people if they remained celibate. Then I thought, am I reading Genesis too literally? Did God create others and we only read about Adam and Eve? Were they not the parents of us all? I know that Cain and Abel came after the fall. Did Adam and Eve remain celibate until after the fall? I think it has been said here (and in other Orthodox writing I’ve read ) that God’s plan of Jesus coming to earth was not a ‘plan B’ but a fulfillment of his will all along. If that’s the case, then was intimacy to procreate part of the original plan or was it a ‘plan B’ within the ‘all along plan?’ Sorry for my pathetic nomenclature, but hopefully there are enough of you that can discern the gist of my commenting that you can offer me some help. Thanks

    Ananias,
    Amen re marriage. I’m reminded of the Ephesians passage, “Submit then to one another.”

    Father,
    “The wholeness of the Church’s teaching is hard for us to apprehend because we ourselves are not whole. And that is the point of the article. We are like fish talking about life on the land. To a certain degree, we have blown a lot of bubbles at each other in the discussion. 🙂

    Because we are in this position, we must be kind and gentle with others, giving as much help as possible, but also as much freedom as is consistent with our health. I have said before that I do not like this topic – because it is almost impossible to get it right – or, even when getting it right, to be heard rightly. We need God’s help in this part of our cultural life!”

    Yes, yes, and amen

  43. Dean Avatar
    Dean

    Simon,
    I like being romantic and being in my 7th decade I AM antiquated! Well, you’re at least 1, maybe 2 generations behind me. Our daughters see the world differently than I. That’s okay. I love them very much anyway. They are my sisters in Christ. And you, Simon, my brother.
    Ananias,
    A wonderful quote. Thanks.
    Paula, AZ
    You are the Paula outside Tucson, right?
    Dee
    Our years in Mexico showed us a very strong familial bond, much stronger than the one here. Even cousins there are called “brother/sister”cousins. In Punjabi there is no word for cousin. All are brothers and sisters. 🙂

  44. Fr. Stephen Freeman Avatar

    Jeff,
    On reading Genesis – I read it as Scripture – which means some things are usefully read in a rather literal manner, others not. The early chapters of Genesis present many difficulties (practical and otherwise) when read in a strictly literal manner. I myself find it problematic as well when the Fathers speculate on what might have been had we not fallen. Of all things in the patristic body of writings, I find those to be the least helpful. Particularly in that they too easily posit some sort of human existence apart from the Cross – and I do not think we should try to think such a thing.

    Marriage is a form of the Cross. Celibacy is a form of the Cross. Monasticism is a form of the Cross. Somehow falling outside those “categories” is still not outside of the Cross – because it is not for the righteous but the unrighteous.

  45. Janine Avatar
    Janine

    I wrote this earlier, then thought it was too personal and too much information. But maybe the discussion has turned more toward the topic, so I post. I was specifically responding to an earlier post of Simon’s, but for everybody…

    Simon, peace to you! I will pray for you.

    What an irony, you are like my inverse. I am so blessed in my marriage of 37+ years, beyond my possible expectations — a tremendously loving husband, a mother-in-law who loved me seemingly better than my own mother. Except for one thing: God did not bless me with children. I love kids, but truly our lives have been difficult and having struggles, and midst all of that I was also always worried whether or not I would be a good mother. At first in the difficult times — plus we were very young — I waited to try for children. Eventually however we decided to try but I didn’t conceive after several years. I did not feel right about IVF and so did not pursue that particular course when I did not become pregnant. I actually feel guilty thinking that I didn’t do my best — on the other hand I don’t know if that would have been successful either. Ongoing prayer (even to this day) on this subject does not leave me with an answer that it was necessary or even appropriate for me to have (physical) children. It’s a cross for me — I really like kids and love talking to them. I’m happy to be an aunt and a great aunt, even if my extended family isn’t the most loving in the world. My own mother recently passed and had Dementia and Alzheimer’s, and so I became mother to my mother for a few years and made sure she had the happy life she wanted when she was helpless — with the tremendous help of my husband. My mother and I didn’t have a great relationship when she was healthy, and grief has brought all that back for me to accept too. But it’s as if God wants me to bear my particular cross and do something else besides physical motherhood. I never pictured myself not being a mother. An early experience in life taught me how much I would love children. At this point many years later, my husband is now very successful in his profession, but it was not easy at all. In a way he is like my child and I his. There were many sacrifices to be made for love. And maybe that’s the point. We have grown together in our faith through the things life brought us. In that respect, we are very different people than when we met. Our Church teaches us that marriage is a path to God too, and so for us together it truly has been. Do you know what the icon of marriage is? Christ the Bridegroom — bound as prisoner, suffering the wounds of humiliation, making sacrifices for love of His Bride. (Quite different from the commercial love and hearts of popular modern culture, but really far more practical, honest, and realistic.)

    Who am I really? Isn’t that up to Christ? I am, in addition to my marriage, incomprehensibly blessed to know love from Christ and from the Panagia. For me such love and care are internally filling and present — truly “an ever-present help in times of trouble.” The All-holy Mother comes to me when my heart is in pain. This has all been a tremendous surprise. But this one thing that pains me — having children to love — is not what God answers me with. I feel it sets me apart from others. (Honestly, so does my faith, in the world I inhabit. In my world, many people seem to have families/children instead of religion.) But maybe there is a purpose God has in mind for that too. God bless you and may you find the grace that is sufficient, the strength made perfect in weakness. One thing I know for sure, love surprises us. I’m glad for you that you have your wonderful son who has brought you such love.

  46. Simon Avatar
    Simon

    I want to clarify something: I love my son immensely. I don’t know that I knew what it was like to really love someone until we brought Micah home. He is truly the one great true love of my life. I love that kid, man. I wish I could post pictures of him because he would break your heart in a second. But he is a time killer. I would hope that all anyone got out of my earlier comments is that life is complicated and sometimes requires unexpected sacrifices.

  47. Janine Avatar
    Janine

    One more possibly pedantic note to all: we all “sons” because we are all heirs.

  48. Christopher Avatar
    Christopher

    Jeff and Matth both wonder about:

    ‘“…marriage is an allowance made to fallen nature…”

    Fr. John Behr’s talk on you tube “Becoming Human” is an excellent antidote to this idea.

  49. Kevin Avatar
    Kevin

    “It is a wound of the soul.”

    There was nothing wrong with the family I grew up in. My parents are still married and we all grew up reasonably functional. I can think of no source for this “wound.” Years ago, I figured out that I was probably on the autism spectrum, though there were no fine distinctions made regarding ASDs when I was a child. I was deemed normal enough for the big school bus. I just didn’t have the code that makes most people excited about things like dogs and babies. My family had a dog. I didn’t. I found it to be generally a nuisance. I also just don’t really get the relational aspect of children. My wife and I made a choice to have a relationship with each other. I get that. Kids would just be stuck with me and vice-versa. Luck of the draw. So, wound or defect, maybe it’s a distinction without a difference, or maybe not. I’m already pushing into my mid 40s with a dead-end career and a smoldering pile of bad investment decisions in the IRA. Like Simon, I didn’t become what I’d envisioned for myself, either, but I managed to fail at that through my own lack of planning or choice. I didn’t have to get sidetracked by kids. I’m not sure where I’d be with the added burden. I might have looked for herbal or fungal remedies. I certainly wouldn’t have had the luxury of the free time to explore Orthodoxy. I feel that at the time, I made an adult choice, knowing my limitations. There are too many people who have children just because that’s what you do and they aren’t emotionally equipped for the task, leading to another dysfunctional family for the church and society to clean up after.

  50. Fr. Stephen Freeman Avatar

    Kevin,
    “Wound” is not a judgment of something we did wrong – just a description about us. And, you’ve probably done what was best or “a best” given your own situation. It’s nobody’s fault – it is what it is. But understanding the various “wounds” that we have – the various ways that death, decay, disease, etc., affects our lives is part of the path of salvation. I have ADHD. It’s much less of a hassle than being on the spectrum, but it is a wound that I have to take into account on a daily basis. It will not go away and it limits me in some ways and makes me prone to certain kinds of errors. So, I try to be aware. God give us grace.

  51. Karen Avatar
    Karen

    Simon,

    Regarding the losses we endure to become spouses and parents, I think that experience is universal. To learn to love as does Christ is the purpose of our existence and our only true fulfillment. There is probably no better “grist for the mill” of our salvation for most of us than becoming spouses and parents. When we seek Him, God gives us grace. Becoming a mother was among the deepest glimpses I have been given into the nature of the love of God. I have two children both mostly grown, one with special needs who will never wholly leave the nest. (I guess I needed more “grist” than many to keep me on the road of salvation.) I have often been tempted in tough times by the thought of “what might have been” had I remained single, but what I imagine in those times (which are actually not frequent) I know to be godless fantasy, and I know my marriage and family are the answer to my deepest and truest prayers, which are for union with Christ.

    (Btw, Tess, thanks for your recommendation a few years ago of Women and the Salvation of the World. The chapter on matriarchy is particularly rich.)

  52. Fr. Stephen Freeman Avatar

    I’ve removed the thread with Simon. It’s not a train of argument that I think is useful here for a variety of reasons. I ask everyone to let it drop.

  53. Matth Avatar
    Matth

    Christopher, I will watch the series of talks from Fr. John Behr. Probably won’t have an opportunity to comment here about it, unfortunately.

  54. Paul Avatar
    Paul

    Father bless,

    Thank you for a thought provoking article as always. As a twenty some year old man, I’ve grown up completely in this distorted world which you describe. I see that my generation is completely immersed in disordered thinking on relationships and sexuality. Many of us young Christians are seeking answers about what is right and wrong in these matters, which I suspect is a symptom of our own obsession with the topic which we get from our culture. Perhaps there are some books or other resources you could recommend that would give some Christian clarity to my confused generation as we go through the stages of life when we decide on celibacy or marriage, and when we date and become young husbands and wives. It seems to me that restoring a right view of sexuality, marriage, and celibacy is critical when we have so many different ideas from every direction, Christian and non-Christian. Thanks!

  55. Paula AZ Avatar
    Paula AZ

    Dean…
    To answer your earlier question…yes, I’m the Paula outside of Tucson 🙂
    Sorry for the delay in answering….

  56. Michael Bauman Avatar
    Michael Bauman

    Just a random thought:. In our two storey universe we easily think of sex as, at most binary, sometimes as unitary. With that assumption any combination of two or solitary satisfaction is fine.

    Sex however is a double Trinity. God-man-woman linked with man-woman-child. The Trinitarian inter-relationship is required for proper order, joy and fecundity.

  57. Esmée La Fleur Avatar

    Paul – I’m not sure if you have read all the comments, so I will just reiterate here that Fr. Josiah Trenham wrote an excellent book on this subject titled “Marriage and Virginity According to St. John Chrysostom.”

  58. NSP Avatar

    @Esmée La Fleur

    Thanks for the book recommendation. I looked it up on Amazon, and it’s slightly expensive.

    Thankfully, the Ph.D. thesis upon which I suppose the book was based is available as a PDF at the following academic porta. I’m sharing the link for others who might be interestedl:

    Ph.D. Thesis: Marriage & Virginity According to St. John Chrysostom – Fr. RJB Trenham [12MB PDF]

    -NSP

  59. Dino Avatar
    Dino

    Matth,
    From what I vaguely remember Fr John Berr has quite a nuanced analysis of the verses comparing celibacy to marriage in Corinthians. It certainly isn’t what you’d conventionally garner from the patristic whole. His reading of those excerpts –as well as the ones in the Gospel about ‘eunichs for the kingdom’- demonstrates, fairly credibly, an (almost) superiority of Marriage! However, it must be said that such a thing goes against the tradition of the Church, and especially against the overwhelming majority of its ascetical and most esteemed Fathers and Mothers. It is a fact that, over 80%, (way over that), of the words we have written down and of the saints that have been canonized (even when including the numerous martyrs) are/were from the celibates, those whose entire lives mirrored the Godwards exclusivity [of the divine eros of ‘the Father of Lights’] of Christ and the Theotokos. However, let’s say it once more: Marriage, just like Monasticism, contains the mystery of the embodiment of the Divine Logos.

  60. Dino Avatar
    Dino

    NSP,
    thank you for Fr. RJB Trenham’s paper!

  61. Michael Bauman Avatar
    Michael Bauman

    Dino, your post above of June 13 is what I was trying to say but you said it more simply. The word fecund seems to be the only word that is adequate. Life abundantly in every part and as a whole because of the union with and through Christ. I only see it through a thick haze and only experience it in a fractured way due to my sin but it is sweet even so.
    As you may know the concept of human rights was invented to replace the Christian paradigm. Rights are about those in power deciding who gets what not about abudant life freely given through the Cross and Resurection.

    I have no rights when everything is freely given by my Father if I but turn back.

    Dear Lord forgive my prodigality.

  62. Janine Avatar
    Janine

    NSP — thank you

  63. Paula AZ Avatar
    Paula AZ

    (catching up on the comments…)

    NSP… I also thank you for the link
    .
    Karen…and thank you for the mention of the book Tess recommended several years ago. I am glad I found a copy at Abebooks for an affordable price.

    Dino…I just now noticed your response to me @ June 14, 2018 at 8:24 am. Thank you. Father’s comment a little further down, stating the “mystical apprehension of celibacy” is most difficult for us is so true and “very, very difficult” for us to grasp. So I take it slow and hope for even an ounce of enlightenment. Even with that ounce I can not be too confident. But I trust I am in good hands. Thank you Father, Dino and all of you.

    Janine…I really appreciate you sharing a bit of your “story”. It was a blessing to read…and helps to know you just a bit more. I so resonate with these words: “one thing that pains me — having children to love — is not what God answers me with. I feel it sets me apart from others. (Honestly, so does my faith, in the world I inhabit. In my world, many people seem to have families/children instead of religion.) But maybe there is a purpose God has in mind for that too.” A comfort to read that, Janine. The setting apart, I have had a hard time with. Yes, the Theotokos, Her love and compassion for all, has been a refuge. Oh, had I known this a long time ago….!

    Simon…I do not want to end before I offer a simple word of encouragement. First, I hope you do not take my expression of my struggles as an offense to you personally. We are all in this together. Which brings me to say, since we are together, let it remain so, despite our varied struggles and frustrations. Please hang in there Simon of Cyrene…stay where God has led you, despite the doubts.
    God’s peace to you….

  64. Janine Avatar
    Janine

    Paula AZ, thank you so much dear friend. God bless.

  65. Esmée La Fleur Avatar

    NSP – Thank you for finding that link and making it available to everyone here. It’s a very worthwhile read and has given me a much greater depth of understanding.

  66. tess Avatar
    tess

    Paula AZ—
    If you’re looking at Evdokimov, there are actually two books he wrote that speak to the issue in different ways– “Sacrament of Love” and “Woman and the Salvation of the World”. They were instrumental, for me, in finally getting a foot-hold on the side of the cliff to climb out of the water. 🙂 (How’s that for expanding the metaphor?) I’m currently rereading the first one, which is specifically about marriage. The second, much longer book, is a more thorough treatment of the spirituality of gender.

    Let me share a quote from the introduction:

    All the contradictions of human nature are manifested in sexual life, for it is there that human nature is most vulnerable and carries a deep wound. When the sexual attraction is impersonal, it is the source of the most odious profanations and of the most humiliating enslavement of the human spirit. It is not the unique, but the anatomy and the moment and the “brief eternity of pleasure” that are sought and desired. Freed from sexual taboos, perfected techniques sharpen the perverted senses of eroticism and descend below the animal, and man drinks his shame and his sickness.

    There is so much in just the introduction of the book that speaks to what Father is talking about in this article. 🙂 Also, what Michael Bauman is saying about how marriage is a Trinitarian revelation— that’s a game changer, and one Evdokimov spends some time on later in the work.

    Karen– I’m glad you liked the book! It’s meaty, so I never know how a recommendation like that is going to go over!

  67. Fr. Stephen Freeman Avatar

    For what it’s worth:
    I offer a word of caution on this topic. First, it is a deeply pastoral matter that is best discussed with a confessor and treated with gentleness, avoiding rigidity whenever possible. There are some hard and fast things within the Church’s teaching – abortion, sex apart from marriage, etc. – but the treatment of failures and sin in this matter require good pastoral insight and gentleness. Very little in our life is as vulnerable and sensitive as sexual matters – as such – it is a topic ripe with the potential for shame – including toxic shame. I have seen very nasty conversations on this elsewhere and it can be quite harmful.

    When thinking about these matters for yourself, try to enter beneath the surface and into the depths of what is going on. St. Paul speaks of marriage as a great mystery – and it is deeply bound up with the mystery of Christ and the Church.

    We live in very troubled and chaotic times – times in which cultural norms have shifted radically overnight. The Church is not called to man the barricades, much less panic or be overcome with fear and anger. We were appointed for this time – we are meant to be here – and, in God’s providence, it is a very good thing. Look to Christ above everything and rejoice. Whatever we are living through, it is an unfolding of the mystery of salvation.

  68. Janine Avatar
    Janine

    Beautiful words, Father!

    (Off topic, sort of, I’m reading Evdokimov’s “Theology of Beauty”. Thank you tess, Esmee, and all for the recommendations of other books.)

  69. Paula AZ Avatar
    Paula AZ

    Father… please, your words are always of high worth! Your reminder to use caution is very well taken. As for good pastoral counseling, of coarse you are correct. For direct face to face contact though, we only have what is available to us in the area we live (of coarse, I realize you know this). For example, my Father-Confessor (our parish Priest) is ‘retiring’ and we are receiving a new Priest. I asked Father if he would still be my Confessor. He said it would be best if we all confessed to our Priest who is taking his place. So we encounter these scenarios in the hope of good counsel. Again, I trust I am in ‘Good Hands’. Indeed, “try to enter beneath the surface and into the depths of what is going on…Look to Christ above everything and rejoice.” Many thanks Father.

    Tess…thanks so much! The second book caught my eye, as I read the description and reviews. But the first one, after your recommendation and the quote from the intro, sounds just as good. Yes, it is a good companion to the things Father speaks about in this post. So yeah, I’ll look for a copy.
    Also, thanks for pointing back to Michael’s comment on the Trinitarian revelation of “marriage”. A lot to attend to here. Good stuff, Michael!

  70. Karen Avatar
    Karen

    Yes, thank you, Father. Good word.

    An observation for those who remain celibate, or for those who remain childless, though married: when our union with Christ shall have been realized and consummated in the Kingdom, scripture says we shall be like the angels who neither marry nor are given in marriage. Since the Divine Reality will have been realized and fulfilled in the Wedding Supper of the Lamb, there will be no further need of the Icon that is earthly marriage, just as the presence of the living Eternal Word in His fullness will do away with the need for prophecy.

    Whether celibate or married, the most important fecundity is that which comes from our union in love with Christ and one another. If you will, this union makes spiritual mothers and fathers of us all. Through and in Christ, that life-creating union with the Trinity is available to all. The monastic vocation most clearly proclaims this truth, which is one way in which it is superior to earthly marriage. A second way in which it is superior is in its proclamation that our worth and purpose is inherent in our very being as persons made in the image of God, not in any of the earthly roles or obligations we fulfill, but which will one day pass away. The truth of our being in Christ is inherently anti-utilitarian, and in that I greatly rejoice!

  71. Janine Avatar
    Janine

    Karen, wrote:
    ” . . . our worth and purpose is inherent in our very being as persons made in the image of God, not in any of the earthly roles or obligations we fulfill, but which will one day pass away. The truth of our being in Christ is inherently anti-utilitarian, and in that I greatly rejoice!” Amen!!!

    I’m one of those people who believes that without Christ we wouldn’t have had a framework for thinking about human rights in any form.

  72. Michael Bauman Avatar
    Michael Bauman

    It is important to remember that God is merciful in this sphere as well.

  73. Byron Avatar
    Byron

    Paul,

    The following book comes highly recommended by several people I know: Glory and Honor: Orthodox Christian Resources on Marriage

    https://smile.amazon.com/Glory-Honor-Orthodox-Christian-Resources/dp/0881415405/ref=sr_1_3?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1529081875&sr=1-3&keywords=Orthodox+Marriage

  74. Karen Avatar
    Karen

    Janine,

    Indeed, apart from Christ, we would have no framework for speaking about human rights at all. David Bentley Hart addresses this in his book entitled Atheist Delusions. It would be more aptly entitled How the Gospel Completely Transformed Societyor something like that, but that wouldn’t have sold as well! 🙄

    Michael, indeed! All of us would be lost apart from that!

  75. Esmée La Fleur Avatar

    I have also read “Glory and Honor: Orthodox Christian Resources on Marriage” as recommended by Byron above and really liked it as well. It’s an Anthology with articles by many different Orthodox authors from a variety of backgrounds.

  76. Kevin Avatar
    Kevin

    Fr. Stephen,
    It’s probably in a deleted thread, but you said that the decision to stop having children or not have them for whatever reason is a decision made in sorrow. I kind of get that. As my portfolio balance continues to ebb, I’ve become more aware of the hidden cost. My wife and I, or one of us, will be a problem for the nieces and nephews to sort out–or for the taxpayers. If the statistics are right, I’ll go first and I haven’t done her any favors with my financial planning. There’s also that sense of drifting with no real purpose or anything significant to look forward to. So, I guess you trade one problem for another.

  77. Dee of St Hermans Avatar
    Dee of St Hermans

    Kevin,
    I say this to be helpful, not knowing or seeing you. But God is with you and your wife, though this might not be readily apparent. If you have the opportunity I would like to encourage you to come and visit an Orthodox Church in your vicinity if you haven’t already done so. The Orthodox life is indeed very ‘rich’ and generally it is our way to try not to inflame the passions that might obscure our vision and life in Christ.

    You have my prayers for your peace and joy.

  78. Michael Bauman Avatar
    Michael Bauman

    On good days I am sure that God provides and everything we suffer in this life is for our salvation because He is Risen and His mercy is more abundant than my sins.

  79. Dee of St Hermans Avatar
    Dee of St Hermans

    Byron thank you for the reading recommendation! I haven’t seen this book before but I have read other books written by the Fords. And I have recommended their other books in the past but missed this one. Thank you!

  80. Kevin Avatar
    Kevin

    Dee,
    Last summer, I found a tiny traditionalist parish near my house with a grizzled, Gandalf-like priest. Unfortunately, he took a nap two months later and didn’t wake up. Now, he was one of those who went another direction when ROCOR rejoined the MP, but that was a bowl of alphabet soup I didn’t care to swim in until more recently. It’s been a lot of just showing up and DIY, Internet catechism for me. Who was in communion with whom didn’t really matter at the time. I’m having doubts about whether I should remain there given that situation, but that’s another set of questions.

  81. Dee of St Hermans Avatar
    Dee of St Hermans

    Kevin,
    Indeed we do have our squabbles don’t we? As Fr Stephen has mentioned in an earlier post, while we have ancient history, it has been messy. My own path would not allow me to enter without noticing the ‘foibles’ to say it as gently as I can. God be with you and your wife. God willing may He grant you peace as you walk toward Orthodoxy.

  82. Dean Avatar
    Dean

    Kevin,
    I have recently been made more keenly aware of how much we need each other, especially as we feel (at least I do) like a salmon swimming upstream against a strong current of modernity/secularism. I have been listening to a Utube of Rod Dreher. I have yet to read his, the Benedict Option. Since you mentioned Rocor, I am not sure where you are at the present. Yet like Dee, I do hope you can soon find yourself in a loving/accepting Orthodox community. “…let us consider how to stir up one another to love and good works, not neglecting to meet together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another, all the more as you see the Day drawing near.” So, be strengthened even through the efforts of this wonderful on-line community.

  83. Paula AZ Avatar
    Paula AZ

    Kevin…I echo Dee, Dean, and Michael’s encouragement. You can’t beat the blessedness of the Liturgy and celebrating with the congregation!
    Allow me also to ask your forgiveness…I read you wrong in your first postings here and jumped to conclusions. I can now recognize a certain special keenness and poignancy in your expressions that has touched my heart. Forgive me, and may God bless and guide you and your wife in all you do.

  84. Kevin Avatar
    Kevin

    Paula AZ,
    Do you remember what post that was? This one or an earlier article? I don’t remember any perceived slight.

  85. Paula AZ Avatar
    Paula AZ

    Oh Kevin! You’re sweet! No, it was my exclamation about the man/woman thing, and I made mention of ‘someone’ who supposedly took the messiness even further and felt no need to have children…that ‘someone’ referred to your comment. So, because of your graciousness, what I’m typing now just got lost in its translation. My conscious bothered me after reading your later posts, so I wanted to apologize.
    Hope that’s a little clearer than mud 🙂

  86. Paula AZ Avatar
    Paula AZ

    oh, more ‘translation’ Kevin…and I called that ‘someone’ selfish. That was not very kind….

  87. Kevin Avatar
    Kevin

    Ultimately, it’s what God says about me that matters in the final analysis. Maybe I am selfish. Maybe I would’ve made wiser investment decisions had I had kids to think about, or had I simply not had time to mess around with a brokerage account every day. A priest sent me a sermon by Nikolai Velimirovich about the Orthodox doctrine of causality. Perhaps our choices affect things in ways that aren’t purely mechanical or linear.

  88. Agata Avatar
    Agata

    Kevin,
    You have received much support and encouragement already, but I would like to add a couple more (hopefully my sharing how I sold Lulu at $4 cheered you up already – read the life of St. Philaret the Almsgiver, and start praying to him, he is an amazing helper in money troubles, I’m a living proof)

    But I feel like your search for the parish needs to be noted. Hopefully you will find a great one to belong to. But even if not (if it’s not the greatest), I encourage you to remember something I heard from Fr. Thomas Hopko ( if I remember right, his mother told him that):
    “It does not matter who draws water from the well, as long as you get to drink it”.
    I have found those words very helpful in times of “parish” or “priest” difficulties.

    And one more word of encouragement about “dogs and babies” :-):
    I once heard Fr. Meletios Webber (I highly recommend his books and talks, and those of Fr. Tom Hopko, btw, anything you can find) say that when you get closer to God, animals and small children are attracted to you! I already had kids by then (and they were in elementary school, asking for a dog!!!), but I was never a “dog person”. So Father’s comment made me agree. This dog is now a great love of my life, and I love ALL dogs… 🙂

  89. Kevin Avatar
    Kevin

    https://oca.org/saints/lives/2017/12/01/103453-righteous-philaret-the-merciful-of-amnia-in-asia-minor

    OCA’s got him. I’m fortunate that my wife appears nowhere near as bitter about the situation as this poor guy’s wife was. It’s almost comical. “Why not give him another bushel?” “May as well give him the bag, too.” “Oh, just give it all to him.” “Throw in the donkey to spite me.” He would’ve been a terrible car salesman. She ended well, though.

  90. Agata Avatar
    Agata

    Kevin,
    I’d like to send you his icon, maybe let Father Stephen know your address, or just email me at my gmail (below). I’m traveling at the moment, and will keep you and your wife in my prayers (I visit holy places and Saints). I know the pain and anxiety of financial losses… when you run towards God, they loose their potency and miraculously improve.
    (Agatamcc)

  91. Kevin Avatar
    Kevin

    Agata,
    I appreciate the gesture, but I have to think about that. My wife has never been to a service with me and isn’t exactly in the co-pilot’s seat on this journey at the moment. I have to be really wise about how I introduce things. Icons are rather weird to her and getting one in the mail from someone talking to me online is going to be difficult to explain in a way that doesn’t raise more questions than I care to answer. I suppose introducing a spouse to Orthodoxy is as close as one gets to giving a cat a bath. It can be done, but there are a hundred ways to screw it up.

  92. Dean Avatar
    Dean

    Kevin,
    My wife did not in the least want to go to liturgy with me. But I kept begging. Finally, she relented. It was a 100+° July day. We get to church and the A.C.
    is broken. She does not wear perfume…essences bother her. Well, with no air circulating, the incense hung thick and strong. I look over at her and she’s getting redder and redder. Liturgy ends (I thought maybe my marriage!). I said to her, “Honey, want to go up and meet the priest?” Her very terse reply, “Dean, get me out of here, get me out of here right now!” We made a speedy exit! But, that was not the end, just a very hot intro. to Orthodoxy. Anyway, we were both chrismated several months later.
    We two can now look back at that 1st liturgy and laugh about it. I think even Christ may have been smiling that day.

  93. Agata Avatar
    Agata

    Kevin,
    Believe me, I understand better than anybody. Good for you to considering your wife’s feelings. Not all wives are so lucky…
    When you need a financial miracle, remember St. Philaret and pray to him.

  94. Karen Avatar
    Karen

    Kevin: “I suppose introducing a spouse to Orthodoxy is as close as one gets to giving a cat a bath. It can be done, but there are a hundred ways to screw it up.”

    😆 Oh, I really like your sense of humor!

  95. Fr. Stephen Freeman Avatar

    Karen, Kevin:
    Indeed! I do not have an official award for best comment of the year…but if I did, Kevin just won it!

  96. Agata Avatar
    Agata

    Kevin,
    I think you owe me! 🙂
    “Best comment of the year” on Fr. Stephen’s blog is an incredible achievement!
    May God guide you to guide your family towards Him, gently, perfectly and surely…

  97. Paula AZ Avatar
    Paula AZ

    Oh LoL!!
    Yep, Kevin…there’s something about you…!
    Dean…really funny story!

  98. Joseph Barabbas Theophorus Avatar

    Fr,

    We’ve gone from “If sexual activity is abstracted from the procreation of children, then how does it differ from any other form of sexual activity…” in the article to what seems to be a different set of criteria in the comments, where “in Orthodoxy it is a matter of conscience” and that the [at least seemingly very clear] position of various teachers is “rigid”. I have led a book group before on Fr. Josiah’s book (I passed out about 25 pages of notes and ancillary material (including a lot of teaching from fathers East and West that did not make it into the book), when all was said and done, plus had extra readings assigned for each chapter) and studied this topic fairly extensively, too. St. John Chrysostom, to use that saint as an example teacher, makes a distinction between abortion and [non-abortive] contraception and has what seem to be even harsher things to say about contraception—I am not sure if that is what is being referred to as rigid or not, but he seems to contradict more than a few comments here. The seeming disparity between the two different groups of statements is very hard to reconcile. I wonder if it is also what is behind the modern tendency towards homosexuality and general sexual confusion. We’ve talked in prior threads about how modernity is a “Christian heresy”, but I think it is more than that—it is an Orthodox Christian heresy. And so I think this, too, is rooted in the very confusing, ambivalent attitude we have towards sexuality and our own uncomfortableness we have with our own teaching. What we see around us will not be healed until we can embody the Church’s teaching on marriage.

    That these matters require “good pastoral insight and gentleness” I definitely agree. But does that mean we are adjusting a penance in order the better deal with the sin and heal the person, which also includes protecting the community? Or does it involve changing the definition of sin, so that the person feels better or some such thing? The latter would be actual legalism—a rigidity and focus on the law to the point where the only “forgiveness” comes from actually changing the law, thus once more putting the person back in some sort of legal justification—and does not differ very much from the other call, which was tangentially referenced in this thread, for pastoral gentleness. They may differ in degree, but not in character. I am not sure that you mean to imply the latter, of course, but these are sensitive matters and we need as little obscurity as possible when it comes to Patristic teaching; some of the statements were very difficult for me to parse definitively.

    Back to the main question for me, though, I think we need to be clear about what the purpose of sex is. I don’t just have homosexuality in mind, but even things like adultery. What does marriage, and specifically sex *within a marriage*, do or create or reveal that are not possible in these other relationships, even if they are committed and exclusive? Once we have that, we have a framework for answering the other questions, and maybe any more that arise in the future that we cannot even imagine right now. But if we can’t speak to that question directly, then I think we’re in trouble.

  99. Byron Avatar
    Byron

    I think we need to be clear about what the purpose of sex is.

    Sex is, I think, the return of woman to man in “one flesh”, the fullness of humanity as originally created by God. Directly linked to this is the creation of life, (with the blessing and) in the image of God. It is a (physical) reflection of the Trinitarian Communion of God which results in life. The understanding of this creative action is a cross to bear; the same self-emptying love and humility of Christ on the Cross is necessary in both the marriage relationship between husband and wife and the life of parenting that results. Like all of our lives, sex is an act that should bring us into the likeness of Christ. Just my thoughts. Please correct as needed.

  100. Paula AZ Avatar
    Paula AZ

    “What we see around us will not be healed until we can embody the Church’s teaching on marriage.”
    “What does marriage, and specifically sex *within a marriage*, do or create or reveal that are not possible in these other relationships, even if they are committed and exclusive? Once we have that, we have a framework for answering the other questions,….”
    JBT,
    I have a feeling I misunderstand your concern. So I ask, why do you say that sex within marriage is the starting place for all further discussion? Doesn’t it make more sense to go even further back and identify the the dissolution between man and woman and speak to reunification…based on marriage as an icon of Christ and His Bride? Surely there is a transcendence here that we at least need to acknowledge. Then people who do not have, or never had, a spouse can be included in your conversation.
    Just wondering, JBT. We are a diverse group out here….

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