Reading Scripture in the Kingdom

monkreading

 

That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. (Joh 3:6)

It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life. (Joh 6:63)

Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption. (1Co 15:50)

The convenience of math is its reliability and predictability. No matter how brilliant or dull one might be, one and one are two. The most evil person on the planet and the greatest saint still have the same sums. If an evil man has one apple and steals another, he has two. If the saint has two apples and gives one away, he has one. This, if you will, is the principle of “flesh and blood.” It requires nothing of us. Math is not an inherently transformative science.

But there are other things out there. Five loaves and two fish, divided by 5,000 should not constitute sufficient meals. But, in the hands of Christ the dinner-math collapses. Five and two equal 5,000 plus. The Kingdom of God has just this transcendent aspect. The disciples, those who witnessed the feeding of the 5,000 were on the cusp of change. They did not yet understand what was taking place, but the contradictions were piling up. The impossibility of what they saw from day-to-day, the blind receiving their sight, the lame walking, Christ walking on the water, speaking to wind and sea and getting results, water becoming wine, were all building to a critical mass that exploded in their lives with the resurrection of Christ and his “opening of their understanding (nous).”

The transformation that took place within the disciples cannot be exaggerated. A band of relatively uneducated fishermen, tax collectors and the like, become the teachers of an utterly seamless garment of Scriptural interpretation that was completely without precedent. The writings of St. Paul and others give clear evidence that within less than 20 years, the full hermeneutic of the paschal reading of Scripture was in place. No evolutionary process can account for such a development. The New Testament itself is evidence of the resurrection of Christ.

But what we see is not a work of dictation. The apostles wrote and taught out of the abundance of their hearts, having been transformed from fishermen into mystical visionaries of the Kingdom of God. They themselves are purposeful contradictions, no less than water becoming wine. Later teachers would bring that vision into dialog with Hellenistic culture, but they would not see deeper into the Kingdom itself.

What was the mind that could see Christ in the Passover Lamb? Indeed, what was the mind that could see Christ’s death and resurrection as a fulfillment of Passover itself? Beneath the letter of the Old Testament, beneath the surface of its poetry, its historical stories, its prophetic works, the primitive Church discerned Christ Himself and the shape of the story which we now know as the gospel.

The shape of the gospel story is not derived from the Old Testament. It is discerned within the Old Testament, after the resurrection of Christ and His subsequent teaching). St. Irenaeus in the 2nd century, specifically references the shape of the gospel story and calls it the “Apostolic Hypothesis.” It is the framework and fundamental understanding of the work of Christ.

For example, that “Christ died for our sins,” is not obvious. It can be discerned in the Old Testament if one comes to understand, for example, that the “Servant Songs” in Isaiah are actually referencing Christ. Again, this was in no way obvious. However, that Christ “died for our sins” is a specific part of the Apostolic Hypothesis. It is cited as a “tradition” in 1 Cor. 15 (“that which was delivered [traditioned] to me”). When that tradition is accepted and “received” (more about this in a moment), then passages like the Servant Songs begin to open up and yield their deeper meaning.

When a gospel writer shares a story about Christ and adds, “This was done that the saying in Isaiah might be fulfilled…,” we are reading the tradition in its operation. But the passages in Isaiah do not themselves give a clue for their interpretation. That clue, the “Apostolic Hypothesis,” must come first before the others can be seen.

The giving of this tradition is described in Luke 24:44-48:

Then He said to them, “These are the words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things must be fulfilled which were written in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms concerning Me.” And He opened their understanding [nous], that they might comprehend the Scriptures. Then He said to them, “Thus it is written, and thus it was necessary for the Christ to suffer and to rise from the dead the third day, “and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in His name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. “And you are witnesses of these things. (Luk 24:44-48)

It is important to see that this new insight into the Scriptures is described as a noetic event. It is not described as technique or style of interpretation that is taught and learned. It is specifically referred to as a change of the nous. In the same manner, the continued understanding of the gospel is, properly, a noetic exercise.

That noetic perception is the common thread of the liturgical texts and hymns of the Orthodox faith. The liturgical life of the Church has a two-fold purpose: the worship of God and the spiritual formation of the people of God. As cited earlier, there must be a movement from “flesh and blood” to “spirit and life.” It is this spiritual transfiguration that is operative in the life of the Church.

This is the same reason that I have written against popular notions of morality. The Christian life does not consist of flesh and blood struggling to behave better. Rather, it is the transformation of flesh and blood into spirit and life. Only a “new creation” (2 Cor. 5:17) sees and understands and lives the new life of the resurrected Christ.

This spiritual ability to see beneath the letter and perceive the truth continues in the life of the Church, unabated. It is particularly evident in the dogmatic formulations of subsequent centuries. Only a nous, properly illumined, could learn to profess the Trinity in the fullness of its mystery. The same is true of Christ’s God/Manhood and the nature of our salvation through the Divine Union.

But these habits of the transformed heart have been diminished and replaced over the centuries in many parts of the Christian world. The doctrinal formulations have become dry statements that sound merely antique. The new language of morality and psychology have largely displaced true noetic perception of the truth. The result is a Christianity that, though often using the terms of the Fathers, gives them completely different meanings. It becomes nothing more than a system of interpretation, not actually requiring God Himself at all.

Classical Christianity is not passé, it has simply been replaced by a new religion that borrows its terms and redefines them. It is like the contemporary Christians who take up bread and wine (or their banal substitutes) and engage in some form of ritual partaking, nevertheless professing all the while that, at most, a psychological event has taken place. The language of “Body and Blood,” though invoked in their ceremonies, are (they are quick to tell us) “merely symbolic.” There is no paradox, no contradiction, no depth to be discerned – only the emptiness of modern psychology.

Mere psychology cannot inherit the Kingdom of God.

But mere psychology is indeed the tool of most contemporary treatments of Scripture. Whether the empty historical analysis of biblical criticism, or the various schemes of so-called literalism, all employ discursive reason (hence psychology) to explain what can only be known noetically. The literalist will assert that Isaiah’s Suffering Servant is indeed, Christ. But he has no reason for saying so apart from some reference in the New Testament. He does not see it, nor discern it, but says it like a parrot. And then he will turn his discursive reason away from these divinely revealed mysteries in order to inveigh on how the Old Testament teaches God’s vengeance and His demands of a necessary justice. In neither case has he “seen” anything or “known” anything in the manner of the Apostolic Church, much less in the manner of the noetic fathers. As often as not, the modern literalist will actually disdain “allegory” and its variations when those variations are themselves the very tools of the fundamental dogmas of the faith, used even by Christ Himself.

The noetic life that inherits the Kingdom (that which is birthed in us at Baptism) both hears the wind and sees where it comes from. It enters the gates of hell and walks in paradise. It mines the treasures buried in the field of the Scriptures. Inheriting the Kingdom is a patient work of noetic transformation received through the integral life of the Tradition. This is the true abundant life promised in Christ and given through the Spirit in the Church.

 

About Fr. Stephen Freeman

Fr. Stephen is a retired Archpriest of the Orthodox Church in America. He is also author of Everywhere Present: Christianity in a One-Storey Universe, and Face to Face: Knowing God Beyond Our Shame, as well as the Glory to God podcast series on Ancient Faith Radio.


Comments

164 responses to “Reading Scripture in the Kingdom”

  1. Onesimus Avatar
    Onesimus

    Maria,

    There is much of value in what you say, and some of it reflects very Orthodox thought (even if you don’t see it). There is most certainly a translation issue between the Orthodox proclamation of the gospel and the background and understanding of gospel in other Churches. (Esp. Protestant ones). We who come from evangelical and Protestant backgrounds tend to plug in our own heritage and teachings into the blank spots in dialogue with Orthodox. We read into Orthodox language. And fo many Orthodox this is difficult because the theology of Orthodoxy is all interconnected.

    Ultimately though, the view you have expressed means there is absolutely no basis for any dialogue with Mormonism jehovahs witnesses, oneness Pentecostals, Unitarian Universalists, etc. there is something deeper about the gospel at stake here which is lost on many even within Orthodox circles. id like to expand on this, but am unsure if you’re interested in further exploring this with us here in the interests of clarity about the Orthodox position. The purpose of this dialogue is not to condemn you. In no way do I believe my evangelical mother, or my Mormon sister are not saved by Christ.

  2. Michael Bauman Avatar
    Michael Bauman

    Onesimus, the Orthodox missionaries listened to stories of the spiritual heritage of the indigenous people of Alaska and then told them the rest of the story..a completion for which many were waiting.

    Christ’s salvation is available to all, not all take advantage. Morman stories are so artificial, so filled with innumerable heretical beliefs that there is literally no way that Mormonism moves people in the direction of salvation. They categorically deny every article of the Nicene Creed. Their Jesus is not the Jesus who we know.

    Yet their ignorance of the truth apparently lowers the bar for them and allows for great grace. God will judge them by what is written on their hearts just as He will us, but we have no excuse.

    There is a danger in not realizing that the foundations of others, even other Christians, is not equivalent to the foundation of the Orthodox Church.

    One can, and should, recognize the lack of equivalence without denying the grace of God is operative in all of us.

    Yet there is a genuine difference between the Orthodox Church and the Apostolic faith she holds and transmits than any other Christian expression. We need not be triumphalist to recognize and proclaim that difference. Indeed we are called upon to do just that.

  3. Maria Avatar
    Maria

    Onesimus,

    July 9, 2016 at 1:45 pm

    You are absolutely correct about those denominations, I totally retreated (all of them) in any kind of dialogue upon listening to what they had to say, just intuitively or instinctively. I never knew so many variations existed to be honest.
    My understanding is even different from the mainline Churches or even the US Baptist Churches.
    I don’t think you will be able to condemn me, because He did not come into the world to condemn the world, but to save it and reconcile it unto himself as I understand it. And the process of reconciliation begins with the seed and birth (a gift and not an attainment) of the triune God in your soul. He who has the Son has life and he will lead you to the rivers/ or fountain of water freely to drink from. This is how I know Him, love Him, treasure and protect him,…. with my Life.
    I would be happy to hear your understanding, and neither would I condemn or invalidate you or anyone who has encountered Him differently after his/her/their needs. Do be patient with my style and limited writing ability. English is a 2nd language and I am not proficient, but trying my best. Thank you for taking me serious. Love and Peace!

  4. Michelle Avatar
    Michelle

    Jerry said,

    “God’s punishments are sometimes restorative in nature; at other times they are retributive because there is a finality to them.”

    I think it is this “finality” of punishments that protestants get hung up on. What could the purpose of the “finality” experienced in an eternal state of hell be if not some form of retribution from the hands of the Father?

    Maybe its a lack of imagination that hinders them when confronted by this mystery. They just need to think outside the box, but, alas, they cannot because they’ve jumped the gun and already declared this retributive interpretation as dogma. But for the Orthodox the question has been kept open, subject to wonder and inquiry.

    Hell is not a literal place created by the Father for the sake of doling out His punishments. Hell is a state of being that the person moves towards; a state of absence that one works to achieve by cursing God in their heart.

    But God cannot be fully driven out because of His gracious presence fills everything, even hell. It even filled Pharaoh’s punishments, out of love.

  5. Fr. Stephen Freeman Avatar

    Michelle,
    I agree. The true weakness and problem of the PSA is that the notion of sin as a forensic concept exists only in the mind of God. It is not a something, only a relational issue. In that sense, sin is only a problem in God’s mind, and He has to make it a problem for us by punishing and killing us, etc.

    Sin, of course, is ontological. The notion of sin as “stain,” or being “washed” from our sins, etc., makes no sense in a legal framework.

  6. Jerry Shepherd Avatar

    Hi Onesimus,

    Thanks for the comments and question, as well as your empathy as a former Reformed guy. As for the comments, in spite of what you say with regard to how the “The Orthodox approach is to take the totality of the witness of all Fathers, scripture, liturgy, hymnody, etc.,” I find the opposite to be the case so far in this discussion. And that is the problem: a very definite strand of PSA language in the church fathers is not being listened to, but rather suppressed. Aside from the quotations which I have provided so far from Eusebius and Chrysostom (which by the way are not simply sentences but paragraphs and really somewhat extensive passages), I could provide many more, and from many more of the fathers. As I said earlier, after awhile, the refusal to take these passages into account simply becomes an exercise in special pleading. So, for example, when Dino privileges the words of Isaac the Syrian over the words of Chrysostom, instead of giving Chrysostom’s words their full weight, this becomes more evasionist than responsible.

    With regard to your thoughts about speculative theology, I share the same concerns. However, it is not speculative theology to take the fairly plain statements about atonement in Paul, and Peter, and John, and accept them as being scriptural statements about what God has done in Christ.

    As for your question about what I would consider to be heresy, that’s a hugely open-ended type question. Lots of things qualify as heresy. But, in keeping with the original topic of this thread, there are theologians, who want to refer to themselves as Reformed or Evangelical, but who have departed from an understanding of the Old Testament as revelation from God, and have practically become Marcionites or semi-Marcionites in the process. So, when they argue that we cannot rely on the revelation of God in the Old Testament, and argue that Jesus came to correct our erroneous Old Testament conceptions of who God is and what he is like, I would refer to that as heresy.

    Blessings.

  7. Jerry Shepherd Avatar

    Hi Mrs. Wicked Unelect 🙂

    Seriously, Michelle, I got on this thread with regard to the issue of interpreting Scripture; I didn’t really want to track off into the area of PSA, and I certainly don’t, on my part, want to expand the discussion into areas of limited atonement and election. So, I’m going to leave those alone. I do, however want to address one thing you mentioned in your post.

    At one point you said, “you need to get out of your head and think a little more with your heart.”

    I take the words of Jesus in Matt 22:37-40, in which he freely quotes Deut 6:5 and Lev 19:18, very seriously. Jesus says, ” ‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’  This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

    There is no dichotomy to be employed between heart and mind. When I engage in the act of interpreting Scripture, I try to love the Lord my God with all my heart, all my soul, and all my mind. I do so very imperfectly, but that is certainly my goal. So, let me assure you, everything I have said in this discussion has been with both my heart and my mind. And that is one of the reasons why I have to listen to the entire witness of Scripture. It is not an act of love to God on my part to only accept the things I like, and reject the things I don’t like. In this regard, the words of Augustine are quite on target:

    “Your evasions are met on every side. You ought to say plainly that you do not believe the gospel of Christ. For to believe what you please, and not to believe what you please, is to believe yourselves, and not the gospel.” (Reply to Faustus the Manichaean).

    Enjoying the discussion, Michelle. Blessings.

  8. Jerry Shepherd Avatar

    Thanks for the “props,” Michelle. Yes, it’s me, Paul, Irenaeus, Athanasius, Eusebius, Chrysostom, and Augustine against the world. “)

    Blessings.

  9. Jerry Shepherd Avatar

    Hi Michelle, that last “) was supposed to be smiley face. 🙂

  10. Jerry Shepherd Avatar

    Thanks for the suggestions, Justin. But they really are not applicable in this case. The Christian faith is not built on a retreat into Gnosticism which regards all outsiders as uninitiated alcoholics who are unable to sober up and read. God chose to speak to us in language, with grammar, syntax, morphology, and logic. The statements God makes in Scriptures must be taken seriously, since he went to all the trouble to speak us. I am not a foreigner to the life of the texts; rather, I am immersed in them. So, if you want to enjoy the life of the texts, I invite you to read them with heart and mind. “Deny yourself. The first step is to admit that you don’t know. To the extent that you hang on to the delusion that you do know, to that extent you will never know.” Blessings.

  11. Jerry Shepherd Avatar

    Hi Agata. Of course, one cannot say everything that could possibly be said every time one addresses a particular issue. However, with regard to PSA, the doctrine has significant practical implications for our life in God and in his Christ. I could write you an entire dissertation on this! However, I’ll just give you two suggestions in this regard, and both of them are given in Scripture.

    “Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God. Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love. This is how God showed his love among us: He sent his one and only Son into the world that we might live through him. This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins. Dear friends, since God so loved us, we also ought to love one another. No one has ever seen God; but if we love one another, God lives in us and his love is made complete in us.” (1 John 4:7-12)

    That God loved me so much to go to such extravagant lengths in the sacrifice of his Son to redeem me to himself–that engenders intense love in me. I love him because he first loved me.

    “But in your hearts revere Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect, keeping a clear conscience, so that those who speak maliciously against your good behavior in Christ may be ashamed of their slander. For it is better, if it is God’s will, to suffer for doing good than for doing evil. For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. . . . Therefore, since Christ suffered in his body, arm yourselves also with the same attitude.” (1 Peter 3:15-18; 4:1).

    Everything Peter mentions in this passage, all the behavior he asks the believer to engage in, is in response to what Jesus did, who suffered for our sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring us to god.

    So many more things I could mention which are accomplished by Christ’s death for our sins: redemption, forgiveness, justification, sanctification, glorification, regeneration, union with Christ–the benefits are innumerable! Blessings.

  12. Jerry Shepherd Avatar

    Very interesting thought, Maria. I don’t think there was anything that I necessarily needed to respond to, but I appreciate a good bit of the sentiments you have expressed. Blessings.

  13. MichaelPatrick Avatar
    MichaelPatrick

    Jerry,

    Instead of proof-texting, which, to me, is like endless whirling, allow me to suggest that you note the essential elements or points of PSA theology as you see them, and that you clarify and note as well every vital role that the scheme requires. Such roles might include the aggrieved, the satisfied, the guilty, the propitiator, the punisher, and so on. This list is illustrative. Make your own.

    The point is to see what a clearly explained PSA doctrine says about God who is always cast in multiple roles.

    Let me posit that you cannot complete this exercise without doing theological violence as the god you depict will be a distorted straw man.

    MichaelPatrick

  14. Jerry Shepherd Avatar

    Thanks for the question, Janine. First of all, “beyond” is not my word, but Paul’s. My main takeaway from what Paul says is that the basic plotline of the gospel story, or what Fr. Freeman referred to as the “shape” of the gospel story, is what the prophets said would happen. Of course, there are details that “fill out” the story; and Peter talks about these in 1 Peter 1:10-12 —

    “Concerning this salvation, the prophets, who spoke of the grace that was to come to you, searched intently and with the greatest care, trying to find out the time and circumstances to which the Spirit of Christ in them was pointing when he predicted the sufferings of the Messiah and the glories that would follow. It was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves but you, when they spoke of the things that have now been told you by those who have preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven. Even angels long to look into these things.”

    So, yes, you are certainly right, there were many things the prophets did not know. But according to Paul and Peter, they knew the basic plotline of a Messiah/Servant of the Lord/Savior figure who would die and rise again.

  15. Fr. Stephen Freeman Avatar

    Jerry,
    Apparently, context is important in reading. At the very least, it sets the bounds of meaning. For example, I suspect that when you read the word “sin,” you have a meaning in mind and that when I read the word “sin,” I have a different meaning in mind. That meaning will be largely drawn from other things – the community in which you live and practice your faith, for example.

    The juridical understanding of sin is largely foreign in the practice of Orthodoxy, it’s services, its’ prayers. It is far more ontological in character. That more dominant imagery demands a different treatment for passages that you simply take to be forensic in content and meaning. In the same manner, your more juridical understanding of sin and forgiveness will read more ontological treatments in a juridical manner.

    I believe that you cannot resolve such a difference by arguing one meaning against another, inasmuch as the meanings are not reflective of the text, per se, but of the community to which the reader belongs.

    There is no apology from Orthodoxy for this, and I understand that to be at the heart of Irenaeus’ point with regard to the gnostics. There is certainly less disagreement between Orthodoxy and Reform than between Orthodoxy and Gnosticism, but the differences are significant – so much so that a number of points of Calvinism have been condemned as heresy by an Orthodox Council (probably one of the most badly written conciliar documents I’ve ever seen, but its point stands).

    Arguing tradition versus tradition only states the obvious – that we read things in a different manner. That Reform practice differs from Patristic practice seems to me to argue that you do not actually read in the same manner that they do (regardless of what you yourself might think you are doing).

    There are larger problems entailed by the legal metaphor. It is not an integral part of the primary doctrines (Trinity, Christology, Sacrament, etc.) of the Conciliar Church. The various ontological treatments of the Atonement share the same language and metaphor of Incarnation, Trinity, Christology, etc. The less integrated presentation of forensic atonement creates a fissure in the unity of doctrine that eventually shows up in practice. The long range result has been a destruction of many important aspects of the Christian faith (the Church, the sacraments, etc.). There are very important reasons that the forensic approach has never truly gained traction in Orthodoxy. It is foreign to its ethos. It just doesn’t fit.

    That it fits in a Reform ethos says a lot. It makes it feel like a different religion sometimes and creates very awkward conversations, particularly in that much of our vocabulary is shared on the surface.

    I think the horse is pretty much dead now. I’ll quit beating him.

  16. James Isaac Avatar
    James Isaac

    I would say that it is impossible to convince someone of what they do not wish to see or are too afraid to question. Having been a rather well-studied and militant classical Lutheran myself, I can testify to the horrific difficulty of even questioning the PSA given how the system is set up. Fear that if i do so, i am apostasizing from the core teaching of Christianity and rendering myself liable to eternal retributive punishment.

    I can also testify to secretly hating [this version of] God and the number of psychological, spiritual, and plain old life crises it took to wake this prideful intellectual up to the truth of what Love is. Love keeps no record of wrongs and requires no payment to restore relationship – as it is so consumed with care for the other such a thought does not even enter in.

    PSA is not just a false theory, but a blasphemous one which paints a very distorted picture of God. Worse than that -if possible- is that it makes you feel like a piece of garbage for even questioning the implications of it on the nature of God, the nature of love, etc.

    But only the willingness to see things with the mind IN the heart, the willingness to let go of the idolatry of dogmatic certitude and intellectual sophistry – coupled with deep prayer and existential angst – can get a person so embedded in this way of seeing things out of it. Oh, and seeing that it has never been a feature in the liturgical life of the most ancient, continuous Christian Tradition in existence helps too! In my experience, at least.

  17. Jerry Shepherd Avatar

    Fr. Freeman, a couple of things in response.

    (1) I find your response to what Paul says very revealing. Paul says that he is “saying nothing beyond what the prophets and Moses said would happen–that the Messiah would suffer and, as the first to rise from the dead, would bring the message of light to his own people and to the Gentiles.” Then you respond to this by saying “your reading just baffles me.” Interestingly, right after Paul makes his defense, Festus interrupts Paul by saying, “You are out of your mind, Paul! Your great learning is driving you insane.” So I find it very telling that your response lines up very well with the response of Festus. Apparently, it’s Paul and me versus you and Festus!

    (2) Your reading of what happens in Luke 24 falls short of taking account of all the clues in the text. Note that when Jesus opens the disciples’ minds, it was because their minds had been closed. Remember that, on the Emmaus road, Jesus rebuked the disciples by saying, “Oh, how foolish you are, and how slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have declared! Was it not necessary that the Messiah should suffer these things and then enter into his glory?” Their problem was not so much cognitive as it was affective and ethical. Jesus opens their minds by removing the veil that covered their eyes when they read these texts, a veil that consisted primarily of a lack of faith. Note also that there are several places in the gospels where Jesus rebukes the Jewish leaders for not understanding the Scriptures which pointed to him. Why would Jesus rebuke them for not properly understanding these passages in the Law, the Prophets, and the Psalms, if these passages could not have been understood as pointing to a dying and rising Messiah. Again, their problem was not so much cognitive as it was affective and ethical. They could not because they would not.

    There are many more things that could be noted, but I will let that suffice for now. Blessings.

  18. James Isaac Avatar
    James Isaac

    Sorry, I never met a dead horse which I couldn’t flog just one more time…

    I also came across this quote (from Archbishop Chrysostomos) which I think cogent – emphasizing spiritual experience [i.e. of the Saints, which we enter into] over intellectual reasoning:

    “I should also add that the dogmas of Orthodoxy are not subject to mere intellectual evaluation (however unsophisticated or unlearned that evaluation). Consensus, by the same token, is not simply empirical or representative of some attitudinal “mean.” [For instance,] When the Church excludes heretics from its consensus, it does so not only because of their wrong belief, but because that wrong belief simultaneously and inevitably estranges them from the common spiritual experience of Orthodoxy. An ignorant man can believe wrongly and come to correct his belief by submission to the Church (even, at times, without understanding the “intellectual” source of his wrong belief), a spiritual act which restores his mystical communion with the body of True Believers. A heretic, however, cannot enter into that communion, if he persists in wrong belief, not simply because his views are wrong, but because his defiance closes to him the spiritual path to communion with Orthodox believers. Even if he were to come to a correct confession intellectually, if this confession is not within the context of submission to the Church and a spiritual re-entry into Her consensual integrity, it does not necessarily restore him. The matter is not one of “right” or “wrong” or of personal opinion, but of genuine spiritual experience within the authentic body of Christ….

    “Theology begins, as Father Florovsky emphasizes, quoting a great Father of the Church, with “fact” (that is, “spiritual fact,” an ontological phenomenon) and with experience, not theory and speculation. Dispute is solved not by reconciliation and dialogue, but by humility and submission. And the criteria by which Truth is established are not the domain of arrogant, puffed-up Christians who have created, in the name of Orthodoxy, a religion of their own, but of those who exist among the properly Baptized, who converse with God, heal the sick, raise the dead, and who converse with Angels, according to St. Nicodemos the Hagiorite.”

    It might sound arrogant or triumphalistic to state all of this, but when you’ve had the experience of Orthodoxy you begin to recognize what is really being said. If you fall on the Rock, you will be broken indeed – but brokenness is the gateway to fullness.

  19. Michelle Avatar
    Michelle

    Hi Jerry,

    Sorry for taking us off the trail into limited atonement. I only mentioned it because you tipped me off that you were a Calvinist when you spoke of the “levels” of God’s love concerning Pharaoh and the like. I still maintain that this idea of “levels” of love, as I mentioned earlier, and as I pointed out in my Mr Elect/Mrs Wicked response, is indeed blasphemous. We now know, through what Christ has revealed to us concerning the Father in the NT, that interpreting OT passages about God’s hatred for wicked persons should not be taken literally, or even as some sort of “level”.

    For example, we learned of the Father’s endearing love, equal to the other disciples, for Judas Iscariot. We learn of this equally fervent love through Christ’s choosing of Judas Iscariot to be a disciple, bestowing upon him all of the same blessed gifts, and even inviting him to partake of the same Divine, Eucharistic Table with Him, along with the other disciples. And as we know, only the Church is invited to participate in the Divine Table. Christ’s relationship with Judas was genuine. It was not a Divinely manipulated ruse to help usher in the Crucifixion. Judas was not a vessel created explicitly for this particular betrayal unto a predetermined damnation. He was a vessel created for discipleship. Every act of Christ’s toward Judas shows us this.

    But anyway, I will stick to PSA from now on, as you suggest.

    In my previous post I gave an analogy of PSA, in my the father, wife, son example, and then asked how you felt about it. You responded by saying it is not an act of love towards God if you only keep what you like, and dismiss what you don’t. I take that to mean that the violent aspect of PSA I aptly referred to in my analogy is something you dislike, but feel you cannot dismiss. Well, at least you dislike it, that’s a start. 😉
    If only you would recognize the pedagogical nature of what Chrysostom says in the Ascension quote you gave. And also that your moral conscious that cringes at my analogy is a God given guide, a grace, to help you avoid such evil. This is why I told you to use your heart -because very often you CAN trust it, though I recognize we must also be sober about our inclination towards delusion. Maybe then you could finally remove this yoke of rejecting your God given conscious that tells you my analogy of a literal PSA reveals something truly repugnant and evil.

    But Reformed theology has reduced all interpretation down to strict logical syllogism, based on the laws of contradiction. When doing theology this way reading Scripture becomes a game, like a jigsaw puzzle, where one attempts to perfectly piece every verse together with the thousands of others. Strict literalism of the text becomes a necessity in such a game. It is nothing more than an acrobatic feat, playing to the unquenchable cravings of the human mind to solve logical problems. Its a a seeking of satisfaction by delving into the bottomless pit of logical possibilities. In other words, your religion is just philosophy, using the Scriptures for its playing field. Just like mathematicians use quantities for theirs. According to Reformed theology any apt human mind can mine the thoughts of God through logical contemplation of the dry text of Scriptures. No Holy Inspiration required. But when you remove the language of the Scriptures and the Fathers from this jigsaw puzzle, and examine it outside of the field of logical syllogism, then PSA as an indelible dogma quickly dissipates.

  20. Jerry Shepherd Avatar

    Hi MichaelPatrick,

    Thank you for this. First of all, let me assure that I have not been engaged in proof-texting. Proof-texting does not refer to simply citing a passage in support of one’s position. Rather, proof-texting is a term that refers to citing a passage out context. Every citation that I have made from the New Testament passages has been made with regard for the context. This past semester, I taught a course at the seminary where I am on faculty entitled, “A Biblical Theology of Atonement.” The course was a detailed investigation of the scriptural teaching on atonement, throughout both Old and New Testaments, and one in which I also touched on systematic-theological issues as well as the history of interpretation, especially in the church fathers.

    So, I hesitate to attempt to do what you are asking, because, in essence, it would either require to me be quite expansive in my answer, almost approaching a dissertation, or if I tried to state things briefly, it would leave all kinds of questions unaddressed. So let me just define the terms, and then you can feel free to ask questions.

    Atonement — Christ in the whole course of his life, incarnation, life, death, burial, resurrection, and ascension, has acted to reconcile sinners to God. Particularly, in his death, he has procured redemption and forgiveness for sins.

    Substitutionary — Christ has done something for me that I could not do for myself. He has died in my place. He was my substitute.

    Penal — Christ takes onto himself the penalty that should have come upon me. He died my death. God set him forth as a propitiation for sin. Or as John Stott puts it, God propitiates himself in the death of his Son.

    Note well: This is a Trinitarian act. Christ does not by his death change anything the heart of God. God was already lovingly disposed toward us. The death of Christ in our place was an act of love on the part of the entire Trinity. As Hebrews 9:4 puts it, Christ offered himself to God (the Father) through the eternal Spirit. He offered himself by dying for us, cleansing us from our sins and from our guilty consciences by his blood. The Father gave the Son. The Son offered himself to the Father, and he did this through the Holy Spirit. And this death accomplished a whole host of things: forensic justification, sanctification, redemption, healing, purification, cleansing from a guilty conscience, union with Christ, to name only a few. This is not just the teaching of a few isolated “proof-texts”; it is the sum teaching of the totality of Scripture.

    By the way, there are numerous, very thorough monographs, which lay out this whole-Bible understanding of atonement. Among them are:

    Stott, John R. W. The Cross of Christ. 20th anniversary ed. Downers Grove: InterVarsity, 2006.

    Morris, Leon. The Apostolic Preaching of the Cross. 3d rev. ed. Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1965.

    Morris, Leon. The Cross in the New Testament. Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1965.

    Treat, Jeremy R.. The Crucified King: Atonement and Kingdom in Biblical and Systematic Theology. Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 2014.

    Perhaps you have some clarifying questions. Blessings.

  21. MichaelPatrick Avatar
    MichaelPatrick

    Thanks Jerry. I’ve read all those treatments and many more. Understand that Anselm’s was a tract no better then than the “Four Spiritual Laws” Evangelicals use today. In their time both were popular and easy in to understand but they fail miserably as theology.

    My challenge should be relatively easy for someone as educated as you and it’s worth doing if you want to persuade others that God actually plays the roles you’ve got Him in.

  22. MichaelPatrick Avatar
    MichaelPatrick

    Jerry, sorry, I should have said I’ve read all those treatments but Jeremy Treat’s.

  23. Jerry Shepherd Avatar

    Hi Michelle,

    So many problems here!

    (1) You said, “We now know, through what Christ has revealed to us concerning the Father in the NT, that interpreting OT passages about God’s hatred for wicked persons should not be taken literally, or even as some sort of ‘level’.”

    No, we don’t know that. First of all, Paul, in Romans 9:13, quotes the OT text about God loving Jacob and hating Esau, and he does not reject that statement. He certainly had a chance to, but does not take it. Second, you have the words of Jesus himself when he declares, “The one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love them and show myself to them” (John 14:21). Additionally, Jesus goes on to state, “If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commands and remain in his love” (John 15:10). In these two statements, Jesus introduces a level of conditionality with regard to the love of God. Now, we might say that Jesus means something different here by the word “love” but that is exactly my point. Sometimes the word “love” means different things or refers to different levels of love. Furthermore even of the Father’s love for the Son, Jesus says this, “The reason my Father loves me is that I lay down my life—only to take it up again” John 10:17). On the one hand, we know that the Father loves the Son from all eternity with this perfect divine inter-Trinitarian love. However, Jesus here speaks of a love the Father has for the Son particularly because he was obedient to his Father. These are statements of Jesus with which we have to deal.

    And then, on a more general note, Jesus did not come to correct how the OT portrays God. To be sure, he came to bring us a fuller revelation; but he did not come to bring us a different revelation, or one that was contradictory to that in the OT.

    (2) No, when I cited that statement from Augustine, I was not talking about your analogy, but about the general way in which Christians approach the words of Jesus in the gospels and appropriate what they like and reject what they don’t like. Of course, this is not the way to read the gospels.

    (3) Your analogy is too crass, and has too many problems to really deal with; it simply caricatures what PSA proponents argue. Here, however, is what you do need to deal with. Scripture, regardless of whether or not you accept PSA, definitely portrays the death of Christ as something that is in the plan of God, and, indeed, orchestrated by God. Here are some of the relevant texts:

    “The reason my Father loves me is that I lay down my life—only to take it up again. No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father.” (John 10:17-18)

    “This man [Jesus] was handed over to you by God’s deliberate plan and foreknowledge; and you, with the help of wicked men, put him to death by nailing him to the cross.” (Acts 2:23)

    “Now, fellow Israelites, I know that you acted in ignorance, as did your leaders. But this is how God fulfilled what he had foretold through all the prophets, saying that his Messiah would suffer.” (Acts 3:17-18)

    “Indeed Herod and Pontius Pilate met together with the Gentiles and the people of Israel in this city to conspire against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed. They did what your power and will had decided beforehand should happen.” (Acts 4:27-28)

    “He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all . . .” (Romans 8:32)

    “God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood . . .” (Romans 3:25)

    “This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins.” (1 John 4:10)

    Now, again, regardless of whether you accept these passages as teaching PSA, they definitely present God the Father sacrificing the son to atone for our sins, to secure our redemption, and to provide forgiveness of sins.

    (4) No, your last paragraph is a huge caricature of what Reformed theology does. I myself am not at all fond of reducing theology to syllogisms, I don’t think the law of non-contradiction applies to the message of the cross, and while I do believe there is a logic to the gospel, Paul definitely says in 1 Corinthians 1 that the message of the cross is foolishness in the eyes of the world. So, no, Reformed theology is nothing like what you’ve said in this paragraph. And I am very much surprised that you refer to the “dry text of Scriptures.” Is that what you really think of Scripture. Well, not me. The word of God is my very life. I can go without food; I cannot go without the word of God. The word of God is living and active. It is my joy and delight. I love God’s word. A dry text? Never!

    Blessings.

  24. Jerry Shepherd Avatar

    Hi MichaelPatrick,

    I have not said a word about Anselm. PSA did not begin with him, but with Jesus and the apostles.

    Sorry, I have already said quite a lot, but I am not going to write that dissertation or reproduce my course on this blog. Feel free to ask questions where I can be more specific with my answers.

    Blessings.

  25. MichaelPatrick Avatar
    MichaelPatrick

    Jerry, I mentioned Anselm because his PSA is still popular today.

    Which particular PSA is right? Within Calvinism we have a smorgasbord of choices. The nuanced refinement of Lutheran versions is attractive, making 4 and 5 point versions look like en masse trials of sinners in god’s angry hands. Perhaps your PSA is more Armenian? Mustn’t some PSA be true in the particulars?

    I wish you were willing to test your PSA against Orthodox theology instead of defending the whole wide lot of them. This could be very easy; Just the roles for God and man, a plot outline and outcomes of the final scene. The key question, again, is what roles God will play and what do the outcomes say about Him?

    A fair challenge unmet.

  26. Karen Avatar
    Karen

    Regarding problems with PSA from an Orthodox perspective of the Atonement, I found this 1995 online treatment by Dr. Robin Collins, Evangelical professor of philosophy at Messiah College, to be helpful in giving me a way to articulate the disconnect I came to see with popular presentations of “God” in common Evangelical presentations of PSA, on the one hand, and the image of the Father visible in the face of Jesus Christ in the Gospels, on the other.

    http://home.messiah.edu/~rcollins/Philosophical%20Theology/Atonement/AT7.HTM

    Perhaps it will be helpful to further the discussion.

    Jerry writes:

    “Atonement — Christ in the whole course of his life, incarnation, life, death, burial, resurrection, and ascension, has acted to reconcile sinners to God. Particularly, in his death, he has procured redemption and forgiveness for sins.

    My observation: Orthodox agree, but would add Christ has acted not only to reconcile sinners to God, but to free them from sin’s bondage and raise the dead to life! This is a critical part of reconciliation–it is the very heart of it, because death is not only or even mainly physical, it is first and foremost spiritual bondage and alienation from the life of God.

    “Substitutionary — Christ has done something for me that I could not do for myself. He has died in my place. He was my substitute.

    My observation: Yes, Christ has done for me what I could not do for myself: He offered Himself in perfect sinless obedience to the Father and willingly entered into death in complete solidarity with sinners (2 Corinthians 5:21). His obedience was indeed a substitute for my disobedience (Romans 5:18-19), but His death was not a substitute for, but rather a sharing in my death on my behalf, that I might in turn share in His life given as a free gift (Hebrews 2:14-15). As Father Stephen has pointed out, I will still die physically, and in my baptism I also die with Christ to sin. In fact, my salvation is as much contingent upon my taking up my own cross and following Christ and being baptized into His death and resurrection (i.e., my own voluntary repentance empowered by Christ), as it is upon His incarnation for my sake. I may face the second death if I refuse God’s offer of redemption, but Jesus never did and never will face the punishment of the second death. What I also could not do for myself is bring myself back to life. Christ has done that for all.

    “Penal — Christ takes onto himself the penalty that should have come upon me. He died my death. God set him forth as a propitiation for sin. Or as John Stott puts it, God propitiates himself in the death of his Son.”

    Christ freely takes upon Himself the penalty to which I am made subject as the result of sin. I will still die, but now I will not die alone without hope and without God. Because of the whole economy of salvation in Christ, the presence of God now also fills Sheol (Psalm 139) even as it does the whole earth and the heavens. Christ did not take upon Himself the punishment of the second death. That comes only to those who refuse God’s offer of forgiveness and salvation. God set Jesus forth as the “mercy seat”–the place of reconciliation between man and God–not because only now can or will God receive man back into His favor, but because only in and through Christ can man see his way back to God. It is man who is once again empowered to move toward God through Christ (expiation). From the Garden on, God has always been taking the initiative to seek out Adam and Even, to come and find His lost sheep.

  27. MichaelPatrick Avatar
    MichaelPatrick

    Jerry, you say that the church fathers taught PSA.

    Is it fair to ask, then, when did the Orthodox abandon it? Who rediscovered the lost PSA doctrine? When?

    If you care about continuity of the church that Christ vowed to protect these questions will not be peripheral, they will be central. Or, if you’d rather care about history as facts the answers should not be difficult to relate.

  28. Michael Bauman Avatar
    Michael Bauman

    Jerry, you say proof texting is taking Scripture out of context and you are not doing that. That is the crux if this whole long discussion. You have your own context. It is a context the the Orthodox Church has never known and is entirely foreign.

    You can push your context all you want but it is not ours and never will be.

    So unless you are willing to step outside your man made tradition and experience the ongoing life if the Church you will never begin to understand.

    Have you ever attended even one Orthodox service? If you are really interested in knowing how we approach our Lord and His freely given gift of life, attending several services is a must. At least a mini-cycle of Vespers, Matins and the Divine Liturgy.

    Better yet would be making an effort to attend Holy Week.

  29. Fr. Stephen Freeman Avatar

    Jerry,
    You completely presume a flat, moralistic, unnuanced meaning to everything. Your treatment of the encounter in Luke simply has no spiritual discernment whatsoever. And it’s typical of Reform treatments.

    You are very clever with the Festus thing, so you get points in the Reform gameshow. Again, you presume the most literalistic, moralistic treament of the OT by Paul. Perhaps there was something so puzzling in St. Paul’s treatment of the OT that it made Festus think he was mad. I think we have said enough.

  30. Jerry Shepherd Avatar

    Hi Karen,

    Thank you very much for this response; it is certainly one of the more careful and responsible ones posted so far. Here are a few thoughts in reply. First, let me just note that the presentation by Robin Collins, in my opinion, has numerous problems, not least among them his very poor use of the prodigal son story. I have already written about this here:

    http://www.therecapitulator.com/the-case-of-the-purloined-parable-2/

    But now on to your responses to the substance my basic definition of PSA

    (1) I have no problem with anything you have here with regard to “atonement.” Again, as I have mentioned before, the atonement Christ accomplished for us is a multi-faceted one. And PSA very well takes its place, either in simple parallel with, or, in my opinion, a hierarchical and logical order with, many other concepts of the atonement, such as Christus Victor, reconciliation, purchase, redemption, healing, justification, sanctification, union, etc.

    (2) With regard to “substitution,” I think you make some valid points, but I still think you fall short of really landing on a proper conception of what substitution entails. Rather, Christ obeys in my place, and he dies in my place. Yes, on one level Christ comes alongside us in our suffering and suffers with us. This is solidarity, and perhaps even representation. But this is not substitution. My own suffering, my own death as a penalty for my sin, does not constitute an atonement for sin, nor does it exhaust the punishment due me for my sin, as there is still a hell, a second death, beyond this life. Yes, we do still die. And this simply accords with the idea which is prevalent in the OT sacrificial system, as well as in the NT, that the substitution does not entirely do away with the penalty, but rather mitigates it. All the OT Israelites who brought God-ordained sacrifices for their sins, still ended up dying. Christ, in the NT, dies my death, and in doing so substitutes for me so that I am rescued from eternal death. His death atones; mine does not. You are certainly correct that we die with him (Rom 6:5-14; Gal 2:19-21); but my dying with Christ is not the same as what accomplished in his giving himself for me. With regard to the idea of substitution, note in particular the recent book by Simon Gathercole, Defending Substitution: An Essay on Atonement in Paul (Baker, 2015).

    (3) On the third point, “penal,” I am happy that you recognized that Christ did indeed take this penalty upon himself. What is also important to recognize is that this penalty is one which God decreed and put in place. And that is what Chrysostom means when he says that “He [Christ] himself took on the punishment that was due to us from the Father.” There is debate about whether hilasterion in Rom 3:25 should be translated as “place of propitiation” or sacrifice of propitiation.” I feel that the linguistic and historical arguments for “sacrifice” are stronger than for “place.” Regardless, Paul still notes that this propitiation takes place by the shedding of his blood” (which also provides an argument for “sacrifice” rather than “place”).

    Again, thank you. Blessings.

  31. Karen Avatar
    Karen

    Jerry, there is no need to see “penalty” as something external to sin itself and imposed from the outside by God, as if there might be no punishment had God not decreed it even though we were in sin. Sin, by biblical definition as alienation from the life and love of God for whom we were made, is its own punishment. Love is its own reward. The Orthodox reading of this is simply more coherent with the whole of the Scriptural account of our salvation in Christ and the nature of Self-giving love as Fr.mStepgen has said. I’m truly sorry you can’t see that because I’m here to stand as a witness that for some of us embracing the full Orthodox truth of the matter has been salvation from madness, quite literally.

  32. Jerry Shepherd Avatar

    Karen, I appreciate the attempt, but your understanding of penalty as not coming from God is simply terribly inconsistent with the ubiquitous teaching of Scripture. And, no, what you have supplied is not the biblical definition of sin. There are indeed places where sin is talked about as being its own penalty. But these instances are very isolated, and the larger teaching of Scripture is that God is very active in punishing sin and iniquity. If God does not actively punish sin, then you really end up with a deistic and uncaring God, a God who is neither just nor loving. And there’s absolutely no need to feel sorry for me. I am only one of tens of millions of Christians across this world who rejoice in what Christ has done to rescue sinful human beings, and who revel in the great love of God as displayed in his penal substitutionary death on the cross.

    In Christ alone, who took on flesh,
    Fullness of God in helpless babe!
    This gift of love and righteousness,
    Scorned by the ones He came to save:
    Till on that cross as Jesus died,
    The wrath of God was satisfied –
    For ev’ry sin on Him was laid;
    Here in the death of Christ I live.

  33. Mark Basil Avatar
    Mark Basil

    Dear to God Jerry;

    I dont know how many times different Orthodox Christians can tell you the same thing. Fr Stephen has two articles after this one that address aspects of the problem you are having here.
    Have you read them? The second on St Athanasius’s use of ostensively legal concepts and terminology is especially pertinent. I suspect you could continue the conversation there more profitably.
    I have also noticed your silence on St. Isaac the Syrian’s explicit rejection of any strictly retributive interpretation of God’s punishments. You do realize how looming a Father he is in our Tradition? There is simply no way that we could import PSA without running contrary to the very interpretive framework of our God-bearing elders, those who know the Truth intimately because they purified their hearts and He dwelt there and communed with them.
    Also Fr Stephen has pointed out that the massive liturgical inheritance we pray within, simply lacks the juridical framework that PSA assumes.
    So we have the same scriptures as you (as for example the gnostics had), but we have a whole other interpretive framework that gives us radically different readings. Thus quoting the scriptures to prove juridical paradigm as you have repeatedly done simply cant work. Again, read the two articles that follow this one to see the reasons.

    Now, you have noticed that on a few occasions Orthodox here have expressed sadness at your apparent inability to appreciate our Orthodox heritage in this. The reason for this is that we have a very different relationship with God dont we? If God *is* retributive in his justice, and does punish just because of a past offense and not to effect a future good, then He is a very different God than the one we know in the Orthodox Church.
    And our God is one to be adored; He is kind to the righteous and the wicked alike- and so I need not fear the shameful truth that I am one of the wicked. He is always intending only good toward us always, and nothing we do can ever change his regard for us. What a beautiful God- how could I exchange His love for an uglier image? We are all so deeply in love with this God that we come to know in the Orthodox Church, that we truly feel sorrow when someone such as yourself will not accept so beautiful a gospel.

    Jerry, you have demonstrated to us and to yourself that you have a completely plausible, internally consistent interpretive framework for the scriptures and the Fathers that can take anything we give and understand it in the light juridical concepts, of PSA, and of a retributive framework.
    Yet, we have a whole unbroken Tradition that has read all the same scriptures, Fathers, etc., and we do not share your interpretations. They aren’t in our intuition nor are they in our formal teachings.
    So where do we go from here?
    This is where some have referenced the place of the heart. Not as an affective faculty, but the deep heart, the seat of the mind: the nous; the inner temple where the conscience speaks and where we commune with the God who loves us, intimately, in silence and without anyone else there. It is this vessel that Orthodox Tradition works to shape and ready and purify for a right vision of God. We fast, pray, give alms, attend services, practice the virtues, all to prepare our hearts for a visitation from the Lord. To receive the grace to see rightly, from a posture of humility and with contrition.
    In short, I am suggesting that what you are missing in your interpretation is a *broken heart*. You have a finely-tuned mind, and a gracious and kind demeanor here, and a well-informed bank of knowledge, and much wisdom. But I do not hear the voice of a man who weeps for sinners, who weeps for the damned.
    This is what is missing.
    I implore you, as futile as it may be for my one more Orthodox voice saying the same thing: work on your heart. We have a gift in our Tradition that calls us to attend to our hearts first and foremost- to place ourselves as worst of sinners. It is essential to discerning between your interpretive framework and that which we know in Orthodoxy:
    Work to empathize with sinners who will suffer the punishment you believe is their ‘just reward’. Soften your heart to them, break your heart down and make room for the unrepentant and unbelieving, genuinely weep for the lost. Then, come back and re-read all of this. Perhaps you will see something new.

    here is the Orthodox heart:

    What is a merciful heart? It is a heart on fire for the whole of creation, for humanity, for the birds, for the animals, for demons, and for all that exists. By the recollection of them the eyes of a merciful person pour forth tears in abundance. By the strong and vehement mercy that grips such a person’s heart, and by such great compassion, the heart is humbled and one cannot bear to hear or to see any injury or slight sorrow in any in creation. For this reason, such a person offers up tearful prayer continually even for irrational beasts, for the enemies of the truth, and for those who harm him, that they be protected and receive mercy. And in like manner such a person prays for the family of reptiles because of the great compassion that burns with without measure in a heart that is in the likeness of God.

    Here is the Orthodox mind:

    “It was particularly characteristic of Staretz Silouan to pray for the dead suffering in the hell of separation from God… He could not bear to think that anyone would languish in ‘outer darkness’. I remember a conversation between him and a certain hermit, who declared with evident satisfaction, ‘God will punish all atheists. They will burn in everlasting fire.’ Obviously upset, the Staretz said, ‘Tell me, supposing you went to paradise, and there looked down and saw somebody burning in hell-fire– would you feel happy?’ ‘It can’t be helped. It would be their own fault,’ said the hermit. The Staretz answered him with a sorrowful countenance. ‘Love could not bear that,’ he said. ‘We must pray for all.’”

    Love in Christ;
    -Mark Basil

  34. Michelle Avatar
    Michelle

    Bravo, Mark Basil! Excellent post!

  35. Jerry Shepherd Avatar

    Hi MichaelPatrick,

    Chrysostom: “And this is also what Christ did. God was angry with us, for we were turning away from God, our human-loving Master. Christ, by putting himself in the middle, exchanged and reconciled each nature to the other. And how did he put himself in the middle? He himself took on the punishment that was due to us from the Father and endured both the punishment from there and the reproaches from here. Do you want to know how he welcomed each? Christ, Paul says, “redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us.” You have seen how he received from on high the punishment that had to be borne!”

    I don’t know when this was abandoned by the Orthodox. Among others, Anselm, Aquinas, Luther, and Calvin helped to recover it.

    Blessings.

  36. Jerry Shepherd Avatar

    Hi Michael Bauman,

    I am not pushing my context. I am pushing the context of Scripture.

    I know Orthodox services are very beautiful and meaningful. Beautiful, however, does not trump scriptural. We are not saved by aesthetics, but by the cross of Jesus Christ.

    Blessings.

  37. Jerry Shepherd Avatar

    Hi James Isaac,

    I am very sorry for you that your experience caused you so much angst. But that has not been my experience, nor the experience of tens of millions of like-minded Christians. “God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us” (Rom 5:8). To believe in this God is not blasphemy.

    Blessings.

  38. Jerry Shepherd Avatar

    Fr. Freeman,

    Thank you for kudos on the cleverness. 🙂

    But I do wish you would refrain from the ad hominem. You don’t know enough about to me to characterize my understanding of Scripture as flat, moralistic, or literalistic. In actuality, it is anything but.

    Thanks, and Blessings.

  39. Jerry Shepherd Avatar

    Hi Mark Basil,

    Thank you very much for your very eloquent and impassioned post. There is far too much there for me to reply to. So please accept this reply to just one of your points.

    You referred to Isaac the Syrian and that passage of his that Dino cited to me in one of his posts. You then said, “So we have the same scriptures as you (as for example the gnostics had), but we have a whole other interpretive framework that gives us radically different readings.” But this is not actually correct. The problem is not that we have different interpretive frameworks; the problem is that this citation from Isaac is not really interpretive of Scripture at all. It doesn’t even pretend to be interpreting Scripture; it is simply a free-floating essay, untethered to anything in the actual biblical text. Indeed, this essay has more in common with Gnosticism than it does with the church fathers, the regula fidei, or the biblical text. God chose to speak to us in language, and it not an act of love toward God to ignore the words in which he spoke. I deeply appreciate the Orthodox heritage, but part of that heritage has been left behind. The Reformers’ watchword, ad fontes, back to the sources–that is, the Scripture, the regula fidei, and the teachings of the early church fathers–was their guiding light. So, again, the problem is not different interpretive frameworks, the problem is interpretation versus the abandonment of interpretation.

    Thanks again, Mark. Blessings.

  40. MichaelPatrick Avatar
    MichaelPatrick

    Jerry,

    A Chrysostom homily says your PSA variant, as yet undefined, is more orthodox than Orthodox? I have nothing to say to a teacher who can’t pray with the church.

    Understand that, if you don’t know when the church abandoned PSA and you’re certain Anselm, Aquinas, Luther, and Calvin helped recover it, you’re effectively trying to bridge the great schism. That means you’re in way over your head.

    I’ll keep praying and singing with the church.

  41. Michelle Avatar
    Michelle

    Jerry,

    Mark Basil is right, the right context is everything. And the right context is a broken heart. Only with a broken heart can someone become illuminated and have the meaning of the Scriptures open up to them. I’m not illuminated (I’m sure you’ve gathered that already, lol). I’m much too often a “Mrs. Elect,” with a decidedly un-broken heart. But I’ve seen a light in St. Silouan, as well as other Saints, and in coming to know the Orthodox Church in an intimate way, and they call out to me. Ive learned of their broken heart, and how it makes them one with Christ, and it calls out to me. I can’t explain it. I trust them to be my faithful guide to understanding the Scriptures and the Church Fathers. This is why I can reject the notion of God’s Justice being satisfied by taking vengeance upon sinners. Love cannot bear that.

    I have a brother who is a Baptist and shares many of the same beliefs as you. He has a son named Seth, who is almost thirteen now. When Seth was five years old his mother left him. She moved to a different state and hasn’t spoken to him since. I know her very well, and I know that she did not want her child. She left because she hated my brother, and did not want Seth. He was five years old and knew she did not want him. He was abused by her, and he knew exactly why she left. But, to this day, he still loves her. He has a beautiful heart. Someday, probably soon, he will start to realize what the Baptists believe. He will learn that if his abusive mother dies without faith in Christ, God’s Just hand will eternally smite her with a vengeance more terrible than any punishment known on earth. And his heart will break. Because he loves his mom. He will then leave the Baptist faith, or, quite probably, leave Christianity altogether. And his broken heart that rejects God’s vengeful hand being laid upon the mother he loves so dearly will make him like Christ, and he will be saved.

  42. Jerry Shepherd Avatar

    Thanks, Michelle. Actually, Mark and I have dialogued a bit off site; he seems to be a very fine fellow, and I am looking forward to more engagement with him.

    Now as for the necessity of having a broken heart, maybe I can give you my version of that. Here’s a FB post of mine from about a year ago. It deals with John Newton, the slave trader turned preacher, and author of Amazing Grace. This is a broken heart.

    I remember as a young boy—I’m not sure if I was in my teens yet—remarking in church one time, that if a person was to envision Christ hanging on the cross, and come to the realization that Christ died for them, paying the penalty for their sins and dying the death they should have died, it would be impossible for that person not to come to faith in Christ. Christ’s love would conquer them. I didn’t realize it at the time; but what I was really doing was articulating the doctrine of irresistible grace.

    There are those who argue that the doctrine of substitutionary atonement presents us with a picture of a pagan, “Monster God,” unworthy of being worshipped, and a god whom no one could love. However, the testimony of saints for nearly two millennia has been very different. They have argued, rather, that it is this vision of God, this vision of the cross, and this understanding of what Christ was doing on the cross, which has conquered them. It has melted their hearts, broken down their resistance, and caused them to glory in God and in all his excellencies. It has caused them to love the God who first loved them, and to devote their entire lives to his service and his pleasure.

    Some time after I made that statement, I came across one of John Newton’s lesser known hymns, “I Saw One Hanging on the Tree,” a hymn which says what I said in that statement; but articulates it better by far. The hymn, in my opinion, was unfortunately married to a tune that did not capture the drama of the lyrics (my apologies to all those who like that tune). I believe a better musical setting for the hymn has been provided by Bob Kauflin (with some alteration of the lyrics, as well as with an added refrain; see link below). The lyrics for Kauflin’s version are in the PowerPoint; but I also provide for you here the lyrics as originally given in the Olney Hymns. Notice that the original version has a verse which precedes what is usually given as verse one in most hymnals, and that the song was entitled in the Olney Hymns as “Looking at the Cross.”

    Looking at the Cross

    In evil long I took delight,
    Unawed by shame or fear;
    Till a new object struck my sight,
    And stopped my wild career.

    I saw one hanging on a tree,
    In agonies and blood.
    Who fixed his languid eyes on me,
    As near his cross I stood.

    Sure, never till my latest breath,
    Can I forget that look;
    It seemed to charge me with his death,
    Though not a word he spoke.

    My conscience felt, and owned the guilt,
    And plunged me in despair;
    I saw my sins his blood had spilt,
    And helped to nail him there.

    Alas! I knew not what I did,
    But now my tears are vain!
    Where shall my trembling soul be hid?
    For I the Lord have slain.

    A second look he gave, which said,
    “I freely all forgive;
    This blood is for thy ransom paid,
    I die, that thou may’st live.”

    Thus, while his death my sin displays,
    In all its blackest hue;
    Such is the mystery of grace,
    It seals my pardon too.

    With pleasing grief and mournful joy,
    My spirit now is filled;
    That I should such a life destroy,
    Yet live by him I killed.

  43. Karen Avatar
    Karen

    Jerry, I understand your perception here (stated in your July 12, 7:18 pm comment to me). It was very much mine for most of my adult life (25+ years). I, too, rejoiced that Christ took my place and my punishment. Who could not be grateful for that? Two of my favorite hymns were “And Can It Be” and “It is Well with My Soul”. I love the hymn you cite, too, except for the unbiblical language that the wrath of God was “satisfied” (the language of “satisfaction” not being in the Scriptures, but rather in Anselm’s theory). Frederica Mathewes-Green has a good reflection on the meaning of Christ’s suffering from an Orthodox perspective here:

    http://www.frederica.com/writings/the-meaning-of-christs-suffering.html

    I certainly understand God’s “punishment” (chastisement) for sin in the Scriptures to be active (inasmuch as God is dynamic and living), but not reactive and not *external* to sin itself and also not strictly-speaking retributive in the sense of an end in itself (notwithstanding the OT’s anthropomorphic language)–its purpose is always with a view to the correction and redemption of sinners (Hebrews 12). This is the nature of love. It seems to me God’s “love,” “mercy” and “righteousness/justice” are not, when all is said and done, different attributes of God, but different words for the same single Divine Will and Nature as this is expressed in creation and redemption. The Apostle John sums up this Divine Nature in 1 John 4:8. I also believe we must look at what Christ actually did and said in the Gospels to understand properly what that business about God’s actively “hardening hearts” and punishing the wicked and so forth in this OT means in its full context (which is the Scriptures as a whole, where Christ and the Gospels are central and the proper context for understanding all the rest).

    With regard to the Parable of the Prodigal Son, I find Dr. Collins’ use of it quite appropriate inasmuch as my understanding is there are Orthodox Fathers of the Church who taught this parable *alone* was sufficient to explain the whole nature of the gospel! (I’m sorry I don’t now remember where I read that.) Apparently, there is a deeper meaning still to this parable than Christ’s rebuke of the Pharisees for their devaluation of repenting “tax-gatherers” and “sinners,” though that is certainly there. As Fr. Stephen has pointed out the Reformed mindset is to take the flat, literal surface content of the narratives of Scripture and fail to dig much deeper than the surface moral lesson in its own immediate context to its wider and deeper spiritual ramifications and application in light of the full revelation of God given us in the whole economy of Christ’s Incarnation. As I understand this, the Fathers, while certainly not ignoring or denying the literal meaning of such passages in their own immediate context, and like the Apostles before them, looked beyond that immediate meaning and saw something deeper illumined in the full Light of Christ and His Pascha. In the case of the Parable of the Prodigal Son, as I have said this “look beyond” made them claim this parable *alone* was sufficient to explain the whole gospel. For, surely it doesn’t just serve as a correction of the Pharisees, but also as a clear revelation of the very heart and motivation of God, the Father, in His dealings with His erring children, of the meaning and nature of sin and repentance, and the meaning and nature of salvation itself! The Fathers obviously had a more full-orbed take on this parable than you.

    I will venture to suggest from an Orthodox perspective, there isn’t a real difference between the “what” of God’s forgiveness and the “how.” Rather, the “what” and the “how” can only be properly understood in a real concrete experiential encounter with the “Who” of God though Christ in His Church. Who God is, fully revealed only in the face of Christ, explains it all (John 1:18).

  44. MichaelPatrick Avatar
    MichaelPatrick

    Michelle, amen and amen.

    Thank you

  45. Dino Avatar
    Dino

    Jerry,
    the “consistent, ubiquitous scriptural basis” you allude to is the reason for the existence of more than twenty thousand different protestant strands…
    from Chrysostom and other clearly paraenetic [rather than theological] sermons to ‘Sola Scriptura’-style scriptural argumentation, defending the ‘religion’ of PSA, will not make it any less of just a human rational construct. But when Christ opens the Scriptures to his disciples, when the Spirit illumines one’s understanding, It first rebukes their hardened, human, juridical understanding and says, ‘Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of.’

  46. Fr. Stephen Freeman Avatar

    Jerry,
    I apologize for the ad hominem.

  47. Jerry Shepherd Avatar

    Thank you Fr. Freeman. And, again, blessings on your ministry.

  48. Michael Bauman Avatar
    Michael Bauman

    Mr. Sheppard, you assume an impossibility that the Scripture forms the Church not the other way around. Your predecessors abandoned that living entity through which the Scriptures were delivered by the Holy Spirit and by which they were formed.

    The One, Holy and Catholic Church was the first fruit of the Holy Spirit from which came our worship, practice, the Epistles and the Gospels which are written records of the life of the Church which existed first as oral teaching handed down from the Apostles.

    Western Christians have ripped the Scripture from the body to which it belongs. It still has life because we still exist by the grace of the Holy Spirit fulfilling the promise that the gates of hell will not prevail against what God formed.

    Your are obviously a thoughtful and kind person but the assumptions on which your approach is founded are incorrect. They lead to bad teaching about the nature of God and our inter-relationship with Him.

    I was never a member of a Reformed congregation but I was subjected to a lot of bad teaching and taught heresy as truth(God is merciful). It took me a long time to recover. Indeed I still have to double check on some things and I have been in the Church 30 years.

    Bad teaching warps the soul of those who dispense it and those who hear it. You deserve better.

    May God grant you grace.

  49. Dino Avatar
    Dino

    Jerry,
    indeed you deserve far better…
    The Atonement of Jesus Christ has a very pertinent explanation by a Texan convert, Timothy Copple, which I particularly think addresses the issues you touch upon.

    The Orthodox, original understanding of atonement is that God’s goal in our redemption is the restoration of oneness with God, His energies enlivening us and annulling the inevitable corollary (i.e.: the consequences of corruption and death) that follows the severing of our union [i.e.: sin, brought about through the evil counsel of our adversary] with our Creator and Life-giver. We are made captive to death by Satan through sin, and in Christ, the utterly sinless One, it is this death that is being defeated and transformed and transcended, Satan’s bonds broken. We are not in bondage to God and do not owe Him something, as in Western theories of atonement, which, by placing God as the one who is unwilling to forgive us our debt, make Him the one to whom we are in bondage unto death by, and not Satan. Yet the Fathers explain clearly that it was necessary that the debt owed by all [in our contingent-upon-our-Creator nature’s “createdness”], namely, that all should die when separated from God, came from Satan and not from God “This bond then the devil held in his possession. And Christ did not give it to us, but Himself tore it in two, the action of one who remits joyfully.” (St. John Chrysostom, 6th homily on Colossians)
    .
    However, in Western traditions which attempt to explain this restoration and atonement [at – one – ment] of Christ’s Incarnation, Crucifixion, Resurrection, Ascension for us, outside of the ontological understanding, the problem becomes not a lack of union with God that is being fixed, but something that God needs to extract from us which we don’t have and so all we have left to give is our lives, to die. It’s as if instead of being in death because of losing the oneness with our Creator, we are in death because we have a need to pay God the Father back. The goal of atonement makes a big difference in the understanding of how Jesus Christ brought this about.
    This has been described with several different analogies by the Fathers. Taken together, they can give us a complete picture. The problem has arisen because some have taken one analogy and attempted to make that describe the whole of atonement. However, because it can only point to certain truths about the atonement, any attempt to do this will inevitably result in false conclusions both about God and what needed to be fixed for us to be saved.
    This is essentially what Anselm did, who is known as the father of the ‘satisfaction’ understanding of the atonement. His goal was to be able to explain to the heathen in a logical fashion why Christ had to die for our sins, without using the Bible or the Fathers. This doesn’t mean he wasn’t trying to stay within them, but because of his methodology he does drift away substantially on some points. It is known as the satisfaction theory because it indicates a need to satisfy a lack that keeps us from salvation.

    Essentially, he took the concept of debt that we owe to God and made that into the whole of the atonement. We do see the debt understanding even in the Bible, as the servant who owed his master a lifetime plus of wages. Athanasius speaks of the debt we owe as well, but he does this ontologically and not juridically, not as Anselm ended up using it. [i.e.: that because of sin, we owed God a debt due to our violation of His honour. This honour has to be repaid somehow, due to the nature of God. Man can’t pay it, only God can pay it, so God becomes man to not only pay what His due is to the Father through perfect obedience, but goes beyond that to give what He didn’t have to give, His life. Since He didn’t need this merit, we can obtain that merit for paying our debt to God off. The sacraments then become a means of distributing these merits, as well as other good works. This is basically the Roman Catholic understanding.]

    One of a few key changes in Anselm’s view that makes a major shift from the view of the Early Church, (i.e.: that what is being atoned for was the broken relationship with God, the Lack of His life giving energies, lack of a union with God), is that there exists a debt of broken honour with God, that is the problem to solve and fix. The whole goal of Christ’s death and resurrection has moved from redeeming us from death and Satan by defeating Him, to paying back God for the honour due Him that we cannot pay ourselves. This was arrived at by deductive logic on Anselm’s part by making what should have been analogical the reality.

    The Reformers modified this a bit, but used the same principles as Anselm, and thus it has the same problems. Instead of using the debt analogy, a juridical analogy replaced it. Instead of a debt of God’s honour, it is breaking God’s Law. Instead of owing a debt, we are guilty of Law breaking. Instead of Christ dying to satisfy God’s honour, He dies to satisfy God’s justice. Instead of salvation being the fulfilling of the debt, it becomes the declaring innocent of the guilty due to Christ taking our punishment.
    Still, God is the one with a problem in that He cannot forgive us outright, but He must punish someone to satisfy His justice. Christ is the only one who can take it and not be defeated by it, and so He becomes man in order to take our place. Salvation is still understood in terms of something other than a relational oneness in Christ; as a clearing of us from a legal problem. It still contradicts the Bible which shows God the Father as forgiving many without needing to punish someone for it. It is still based on premises about salvation and the Father that are not evident in the Early Church or Scriptures.

    Missing from the satisfaction theory are the points we derive from another analogy used by the Fathers and the Scriptures, that of healing. Actually, the Greek word used for salvation (σωτηρία), is the same word translated as heal. Context and theology determines the translation choice. It basically is a word that means wholeness or completeness. For Orthodoxy it indicates the fullness of how we were created. We are sick, and need healing because of the corruption we are subject to. In this picture, there is no owing or guilt directly involved, though it is in the background of how we got here. Rather, there is a healing of our souls going on. The analogy of debt and justice totally miss this whole context which is much frequently used in the Fathers. Even the Eucharist is referred to as the medicine of immortality. That is how we get a complete picture, we need to keep all the ‘analogies’ before us.

    Do you see why Protestants understand things the way they do in relation to salvation, and why Orthodox understanding is different? It is relational with God, not legal or financial in nature. That changes the whole perspective in how we approach salvation. It is not a one-time deal, a declaring not guilty, but a continuing relationship with God. It is not a matter of works or faith, but an ontological obedience to God of love which draws us closer to Him.

  50. TimOfTheNorth Avatar
    TimOfTheNorth

    I’ve been following this comment thread closely, since it mirrors many of the questions that have troubled me in recent years. I am not yet inside of the Orthodox church, but I am discontent with the standard evangelical/Reformed treatments of the atonement.

    Jerry, you are a clear thinker and a clear communicator. You have given as winsome a presentation of PSA as I think is possible in an internet forum. Your knowledge of the Fathers and the Scriptures is broad–certainly beyond mine. At points as I read your comments, I am almost convinced to stick “appease” and “satisfy” back into my gospel vocabulary.

    And yet… although you have given me good reason to believe that the Scriptures and the Fathers can be excerpted and arranged to support PSA, I remain unconvinced that such a theory *adds anything useful* to the gospel of our Lord. That is to say a Christian faith which lacks PSA lacks absolutely nothing.

    Here’s what I mean: When I first encountered the idea that PSA was not in Scripture, I could have laughed out loud. How could any serious, traditional Christian think such a cornerstone of the faith was not there? Of course it was! And I had all the verses you quote to back me up. But I decided to try something. What if I pretended that I had never heard of PSA. What if I kept everything else I had received but cut out every assumption that Jesus bearing my sin meant Jesus bearing God’s wrath–or that the Father forgiveness depended on Someone being punished? Wouldn’t the whole thing fall apart? Wouldn’t I become some flaccid liberal confused and susceptible to every wind of doctrine? Like Qoheleth I would see what it was like to live in folly for a little bit–my heart still guiding me with wisdom.

    But here’s the thing–a couple days of that thought experiment turned into a couple of weeks turned into a couple of months, and yet I found I still wasn’t missing anything. My love for God and neighbor, my faithfulness to every other part of my tradition, my desire to know and grow in Christ, everything that I could evaluate and judge was completely unaffected by the loss of PSA. (If anything, the effect was only an increase of these things, at least so far as I could determine it.) I was astonished. I didn’t have to skip over any Bible verses. My gratitude for Christ’s sacrificial death lost no fervor. I didn’t become more tolerant of sin in my own life. I didn’t find religious progressivism any more enticing than before. In the body of my spiritual thought and practice, PSA was a useless tumor pretending to be an essential organ. Maybe I’ll someday realize something good that I lost when I surrendered PSA, but as time moves along it seems less and less likely.

    I doubt that any theological arguments will move you. But I wonder if you wouldn’t be willing to try my experiment for yourself. See if the theological world or your relationship with Christ comes crashing down without PSA. You might be pleasantly surprised! (Though there are no guarantees on your relationship with friends and family who still hold fervently to PSA…)

  51. Michael Bauman Avatar
    Michael Bauman

    Dino, would you say that our understanding was summed up in the Transfiguration on Mt. Tabor especially the verse: “As he prayed he was changed…”

  52. Dino Avatar
    Dino

    Michael,
    Inasmuch as Christ as Man transfigured shows us the deification of human nature on Mt. Tabor, inasmuch as He offers each person the capability to be deified –transfigured in prayer – despite being created from nothing, perhaps we can claim that our understanding can be summed up there indeed. As Athanasius reminds us, the solidarity of mankind is such that, by virtue of the Christ the Word’s indwelling in a single human body, the corruption which goes with death has lost its power over all. He uses the image of some great king who enters a large city and dwells in one of its houses; because of his dwelling in that single house, the whole city is honoured, and enemies and robbers cease to molest it.

  53. Michelle Avatar
    Michelle

    Jerry,

    I appreciate your explanation of a broken heart. What I hear you saying is that if my nephew, Seth, were to realize the gravity of his sins, knowing them to be the true cause of Christ’s unjust death upon the Cross, then he would accept his punishments as a Just reward willingly with a broken heart over his sins. And this broken heart will, in fact, rejoice, not only at the Justness of the punishments he is faced with, but at the mercy that Christ is bestowing upon him by trading places with Him and enduring what he deserves in his stead.

    What I also hear you saying is that since Seth will fall in love with the beauty of the Justness of God, which is unending vengeance upon sinners, he will actually rejoice in that, if Christ had not taken his stead, this beautiful Just vengeance would have befallen him too. And for this same reason Seth will even rejoice in the beauty of God’s Just vengeance upon his own mother for eternity, enduring terrible punishments beyond anything known on this earth, should she be found without faith, and Christ passes her by, not taking her stead upon the Cross.

    And this is actually what my brother teaches his son about the Father and Christ’s relationship towards the mother his little heart burns for. My brother tries to cultivate in his son’s heart a belief that he will possess a righteous love of vengeance against the unrepentant in the eschaton, quite possible including vengeance upon his mother. While at the same time teaching him to love Christ for freeing him from the same fate as these sinners. He teaches him that if he has faith in what Christ has done for him, then in the eschaton he will forever rejoice over God’s mercy to him, a sinner. And, likewise, if his mother never comes to believe in Christ sacrifice for her, then he will forever rejoice in God’s Just vengeance upon her, a sinner.

    Indeed, it is a cruel trick of Satan’s; to convince a father to contort his own little boy’s heart, who burns so desperately in love with his unworthy mother, into accepting rejoicing over her unending suffering at the hands of God, due to her deadness to the love of God, as a result of her own self-love. While at the same time rejoicing in his own unending joy, because of God’s mercy upon him while he was yet deserving hell, due to his deadness to the love of God, as a result of his own self-love.

    Would it really be a wonder if Seth should condemn the teaching of his father, abandoning this vision of God, happily trading Christ for his mother? He will not risk losing the only piece of her he has left, which is his love for her. And in sacrificing this false Christ for his mother, he will both gain his mother, and along with her the True Christ of the Scriptures.

  54. MichaelPatrick Avatar
    MichaelPatrick

    TimOfTheNorth, thanks for that comment about your own experiment. What a story and well said!

  55. Jerry Shepherd Avatar

    Dino, several problems here.

    (1) If something is ubiquitous in Scritpure, it has to be dealt with. How many times does God have to say something before he gets someone’s attention.

    (2) You put the number of Protestant strands at 20,000. Someone else on this thread put the number at 40,000. Neither number is near the truth. Reliable reference sources put the Protestant number at about 9,000, and even then these are not always separate denominations but simply regionally and geographically differentiated associations. And by the way, There are apparently about 1,000 Orthodox denominations! And none of these denominations are divided over doctrines that are ubiquitous in Scripture.

    (3) Again, the way you are handling the texts from Chrysostom is a case of special pleading. Chrysostom was being parenetic, so he wasn’t being theological? Really? If I were Chrysostom I would be quite offended at this suggestion. Pastors have the responsibility to make sure that their sermons are theologically correct. I seriously doubt that Chrysostom shirked this responsibility.

    (4) PSA is not a man-made rational construct; rather it is God-given doctrine to his church.

    (5) Christ did not come to get rid of the juridical. He came to fulfill it and to reinforce it.

    Blessings.

  56. Fr. Stephen Freeman Avatar

    Jerry,
    Strange, I only know of One Orthodox Church. We’ve reached over 150 comments on this thread. I think it’s about done. Tit for tat is becoming tedious.

  57. Dino Avatar
    Dino

    Jerry,
    As Father rightly suggested it looks that after once and twice and thrice, it’s time we finally put this to one side. May God bless you in all, now and always.

  58. Jerry Shepherd Avatar

    Blessings on all the interlocutors in the discussion. It has been fascinating.

  59. Alan Avatar
    Alan

    Dino, thank you, thank you, thank you for your most recent comment. Your last paragraph in particular was pure gold and was extremely helpful!

  60. Agata Avatar
    Agata

    Alan,

    I second your comment wholeheartedly!
    (I happen to think ALL Dino’s comments are pure gold! :-))

    I wanted to share with you this great interview on AFR, where Dr. Carlton compares Salvation to a diamond…. (you could say it is “pure diamond” :-))

    http://www.ancientfaith.com/podcasts/aftoday/what_christ_accomplished_for_us

    I will also include this article that references Dr. Carlton’s books (all very excellent):

    http://orthodoxwayoflife.blogspot.com/2012/01/justification-and-salvation.html

    (hopefully Fr. Stephen will allow just one more comment here…)

  61. Dino Avatar
    Dino

    Alan,
    I am not sure whether you meant the earlier bit [the long comment] about the ontological obedience to our God out of Love, or St Athanasius’ words on the image of the great king who enters a large city by dwelling in one of its houses, the whole city is honoured, and enemies and robbers cease [response to Michael], or simply the last one to Jerry: that it’s time we finally put this whole thread to one side! 🙂

  62. Alan Avatar
    Alan

    Dino, my apologies. I failed to correctly navigate those notices at the bottom of the comments that say “newer comments” or “older comments.” Sorry about that. I was referring to the paragraph below from you, that I included. Thanks again!

    “Do you see why Protestants understand things the way they do in relation to salvation, and why Orthodox understanding is different? It is relational with God, not legal or financial in nature. That changes the whole perspective in how we approach salvation. It is not a one-time deal, a declaring not guilty, but a continuing relationship with God. It is not a matter of works or faith, but an ontological obedience to God of love which draws us closer to Him.”

  63. Karen Avatar
    Karen

    If Father allows . . .

    Jerry, just for the record, I didn’t see Fr. Stephen’s comment about the tendency toward a flat, moralistic literalism in the way Reformed expositors tend to expound Scripture as an ad hominem, but rather accurately descriptive of a tendency of the modern Reformed m.o. in Bible exposition and teaching that he also saw at work behind the conclusions you presented in your general approach to explaining the Scriptures here. The way you expounded and read (i.e., limited the meaning of) the Parable of the Prodigal Son in your written critique of Dr. Collins work apparently without also seeing in it a powerful illustration of the whole nature of the gospel as the Church Fathers did is a case in point. This is not to say you might not make some pastoral applications or connections to the gospel (as you understand that) from your expositions, but that is not what seems to be what is considered the most important aspect of Reformed preaching and teaching, which rather seems to be to get across what is deemed a proper understanding of the straightforward literal meaning and moral application of a Scriptural text in its own context.

    Would it be fair to say that the ideal preaching/teaching method from a Reformed standpoint is verse-by-verse exposition of a passage of Scripture in its own immediate context? Within the last couple years, I did read a Reformed preacher’s blog who was making a plea this was the case and lamenting so many Reformed preachers were straying from that long-standing Reformed tradition in more recent times under pressure from the popularity of other approaches within the wider Evangelical world.

    I hope it will be clear I’m not saying there is no value whatsoever in such an approach. I’ve learned a lot in that context that set the stage for better assimilation of many parts of the Scriptures’ teaching. But here’s what intrigues me (correct me if I’m missing something here), as far as I can recall, though I understand passages of Scripture were routinely read and discussed as part of the Jewish synagogue services (as in Luke 4, for example) as they are in some of the older Christian liturgical traditions to this day, this verse-by-verse expository method of teaching the meaning of such passages is conspicuous by its absence in the examples of the preaching and teaching we have of Jesus, the prophets, and the apostles in the Scriptures themselves. Why do you think that is? Feel free to answer my question under a more recent, shorter thread if you like.

    Thank you, too, for your interaction here. You are a true Reformed Christian gentleman, and it’s always a pleasure to “meet” such. 🙂 (There are other kinds in Christian blogdom–Orthodox included–and it’s not always such a civil and kind–if, at points, also very frank–exchange as we’ve been able to have here.)

  64. Jerry Shepherd Avatar

    Hi Karen. Excellent questions. I’ll let Fr. Freeman decide as to whether he’ll allow any more discussion this.

    Also, thank you for your kind comments. They are much appreciated. Blessings.

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