How the Scriptures Became the Scriptures

How did the Scriptures become the Scriptures? In particular, how did early Christians decide which books would be included in the Scriptures and which books would not – for there were far more writings of the time that were set aside than those that were accepted as being Scripture?

Interestingly, the process did not happen right away. The writings that are today described as being the New Testament were largely or completely finished by the end of the first century – that is – within the lifetime of the longest surviving disciple (St. John). Yet, the Church did not declare what writings were to be considered Scripture for more than a century after that. Why did the so-called “New Testament Church” wait for over a century to declare what would be the New Testament?

There are a number of modern Christians who speak of the New Testament as though it were the definitive achievement of the early Church. For them, only those things that can be “proven” by reference to the New Testament are considered authoritative or true. It is that same method that they use to justify their own beliefs and practices. But, we will note, they have established a requirement that not even the early Church observed.

There is, first, the problem of circular logic. How can you establish the authority of the New Testament before the New Testament is complete? With advocates of a “New Testament Church,” this problem is usually obviated by reference to the Apostles. While the Apostles were alive, they reason, they functioned as a sort of living New Testament. The Scriptures were not utterly necessary until they died. However, once they died, the Scriptures become the sole authority (Sola Scriptura). Of course, unlike the American Constitution, the New Testament did not include a method of “ratification.” By the time of the last Apostle, there were already documents claiming to be “Apostolic” or the “Secret teachings of Jesus” in circulation. How was the early Church able to decide what was authentic and what was false? The modern NT scholar, Bart Ehrman, has created a small cottage industry by playing off this problem.

Those who struggle to anchor the Christian faith in a first-century Scripture, fail to notice what the Apostles actually did complete by the end of the first century. The Scriptures that today comprise the New Testament were completed by the end of that century, but they had not yet become the Scriptures that they would be. What the Apostles completed in their lifetime (and even before its end) was the founding of the Church. It is this labor that occupied all of their time and their attention. The Apostle Paul’s ministry stretched over 35 years (more or less). In that time he wrote 14 letters (at most). Those writings are relatively short. What else did he do for 35 years? He established communities of Christians all across the Mediterranean; he taught; he communicated the Tradition; He trained and ordained leaders; He revisited communities; He trained a team to assist him. His life was the Church. Everything he wrote, he wrote as an extension of his work in and for the Church.

It was this beloved Church that he called, “the Body of Christ.” It was this beloved Church that he called, “The Pillar and Ground of Truth.” It was her inner life, described as “traditions,” taught “by word or our epistle,” that he instructed his fellow workmen to “hold fast” (2 Thess. 2:15).

This last instruction points to the reality of the Church’s life. The gospels (all four) which we now have, show clear evidence of having first been known and taught orally. They were not entirely the compositions of four different men (Matthew, Mark, Luke, John). They clearly have much material in common (sometimes word for word). St. Paul and his fledgling communities were not strangers to this oral tradition. In 1 Corinthians 11, St. Paul reminds the Christians in Corinth of the oral tradition of the Eucharist. He specifically says that he traditioned (ὃ καὶ παρέδωκα ὑμῖν) to them what he himself had received by tradition (παρέλαβον ἀπὸ τοῦ Κυρίου), that “In the night in which He was betrayed, He took bread…”  He then relates, pretty much word-for-word, the account of the institution of the Eucharist as it is given in Matthew, Mark and Luke. This is more than a decade or two before those gospels are held to have been written. The oral tradition of the gospels (doubtless that tradition contained most of what forms the gospels that we have today) predates the written gospels by decades. The best NT scholars today suggest that the tradition Paul cites in such a fixed form goes back to around 35 AD (2 years after the resurrection).

The Church of the first century, founded and nurtured tirelessly by the Apostles, was grounded in this oral tradition. It included stories of the gospels, early hymns (such as Philippians 2:5-11), creedal material (1 Corinthians 15:1-5), and such things. Most especially, its inner life and character as the worshipping community of Jesus were formed in a manner that consistently reflected the gospel itself. The incarnate God, crucified in weakness, dead, descended into Hades, raised from the dead in power, triumphant over death and hell, exalted to the right hand of the Father, coming again to bring the fullness of His Kingdom, formed the shape of the early Christian life. Salvation was through union with Christ. That union was initiated in Baptism and sealed by the gift of the Spirit. It was nourished in the Eucharist of His Body and Blood. It was reaffirmed by a life marked by humility, hospitality, care for the poor, and obedience to the way of the Cross (even obedience unto death). It was guided by that inner life, expressed in the teachings of the Apostles, maintained by the Bishops whom they appointed within the Church. The sheep knew the voice of their Shepherd.

It was the recognition of that voice that ultimately affirmed the Scriptures that we now describe as the New Testament. The “canon” of the New Testament (those books the Church accepted as authoritative) was based on what was actually used in the Churches over the first few centuries. The discussions within the Church in affirming a canon were comparisons from place to place as to what books were read within the worship life of the Church. The lists varied. But several things are of note:

1. The lists did not include books that deviated in any way from the normative account of the Apostolic faith. There was no acceptance of gospels that ignored the centrality of the crucifixion and resurrection of Christ. There were no books whose descriptions of the Christian way of life deviated from the example of Christ and the Apostles.

2. Some books were not universally accepted, but had enough acceptance to be considered canonical (Revelation is an example – it is still not read in the Eastern Orthodox Church, though it is considered canonical).

3. Some books that were generally believed to be Apostolic in origin did not have enough acceptance to be included among the canonical works. Thus the Didache, the Shepherd of Hermas, the Epistle of Barnabas, though generally accepted as Apostolic, lacked sufficient universality).

It is important to consider the fact that there were no books within the lists that were outside the mainstream of the received Orthodox Tradition. How was that? There was no centralized, controlling bureaucracy, no mass communication. There was, instead, a common mind (as St. Paul enjoined his Churches, cf. 1 Cor. 1:10; 2 Cor. 13:11; Phil. 1:27; Phil. 2:2; Phil 3:16; Phil. 4:2, etc.). That common mind is, in fact, what Orthodox mean by Tradition. St. Paul does not enjoin the Churches, “Read the same New Testament.” He says, “Be of one mind.” The Church is of one mind, because it is the one Church in the one Lord, in the one Spirit, in the one Apostolic Tradition. That one mind spoke and established the canon of the New Testament. Many today read the same book, but because they are not of the same mind, fail to understand it.

The Scripture is not prior to the Church, but of the Church. It is a manifestation of the Church’s divine life. It speaks with the voice of Christ, the same voice that speaks throughout the life of the Church. In recognizing the voice of its shepherd, the Church declared some books to be authoritative, that is, consistent with the voice of Christ they already knew. As St. John says to the Church:

These things I have written to you concerning those who try to deceive you. But the anointing which you have received from Him abides in you, and you do not need that anyone teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true, and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you will abide in Him (1 Jn. 2:26-27).

Interestingly, in this very passage, John acknowledges his role in writing, but also acknowledges that the Church already has something that teaches and guards from falsehood – the anointing – the Holy Spirit. He is not describing “two poles,” or “two sources,” or “two authorities.” His writing and the anointing have one and the same action. John writes and the anointing abides, and both preserve the Church. The Church knows its shepherd and His voice (and even St. John’s writing) because the anointing abides within it. St. John does not suggest that his writing can now substitute for the anointing.

And so the Church establishes what is now called the canon of Scripture. Those books that are consistent with the witness of the anointing in the Church and have been recognized as such over time by the Church, are declared to be authoritative. But the anointing does not cease, for it is the very constitution of the Church. The Church which is the Body of Christ is made so by the one Spirit it has received and continues to receive and in which it abides.

Schemes of interpretation and ecclesiology rooted in sola scriptura ultimately divorce the Scriptures from the Church and the Church from the anointing. The result is the present sad state of denominational Christianity.

About Fr. Stephen Freeman

Fr. Stephen is a retired Archpriest of the Orthodox Church in America. He is also author of Everywhere Present: Christianity in a One-Storey Universe, and Face to Face: Knowing God Beyond Our Shame, as well as the Glory to God podcast series on Ancient Faith Radio.



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232 responses to “How the Scriptures Became the Scriptures”

  1. John Shores Avatar
    John Shores

    Erin – Do email me and keep in touch. (email hidden; JavaScript is required)

    PJ – If you read George MacDonald, let me encourage you NOT to read the Americanized translations but get your hands on the originals in which dialogue is all in Scots. It is perfectly delicious. The book is “Robert Falconer” but any of his works (Sir Gibbie, Alec Forbes of Howglen, Malcolm, etc) are also wonderful.

    Erin – If you are into reading fiction, George MacDonald’s “The Curate’s Awakening” is magnificent. It is about a man training to be an Anglican priest who discovers that he does not believe in Jesus. The brutal honesty and beauty (for which I admire GM so much) is perfectly wonderful. I’m starting to regret that I gave all my GM books away…

  2. PJ Avatar
    PJ

    I recommend the sermon “Justice”, available here: http://www.ccel.org/ccel/macdonald/unspoken3.viii.html

    It’s strange, because supposedly he was not familiar with the eastern fathers, yet his thoughts are rather oriental.

    I certainly wish, with MacDonald, that all are saved, but the Fifth Ecumenical Council anathemized the notion. The only way to reconcile hell and the goodness of God is to recognize the mystery of human freedom. Freedom is necessary for true love, but the very same freedom that allows us to embrace God also allows us to turn our backs on Him.

  3. Karen Avatar
    Karen

    PJ, I do understand speaking out of your own experience and background and perhaps missing where someone else is at. I’m sure I’ve done that many times. I, personally, have never struggled to believe that hell existed, (though, for John S.’s benefit, I should clarify that I do not believe it is a place where God throws sinners to torment them!). I have struggled all my life to believe that God is good.

  4. mary benton Avatar
    mary benton

    John S. – I love your quote from George MacDonald. More stuff that I don’t have time to read (yet):-)

    Erin – thank you for your courage too in attending the classes and sharing your struggle here from a compassionate heart.

    PJ – thank you for your example of humility and great reflection on where your need is.

    I am learning so much from Father Stephen – but also from all of you as we digress and share. Each of us is in a unique place and the coming together of experience (both faith and doubt) is so enriching…

  5. Connie Avatar
    Connie

    John S. “As a father, I cannot think of god as a father and then suppose that he would torment his children (or allow them to be tormented).” I just have no reference points for hell that also allow me to believe that god is good.”

    I am SO on the same page with you. I could not be Christian, I could not be Orthodox, if I had to believe in an eternal hell. I stand with St. Isaac of Syria and St Gregory of Nyssa that the hell, the torment you see in the Bible, is for remedial purposes only. Even as you would want to give your children consequences to steer them in the direction they should go, i.e. the only direction that could make them truly happy, so Jesus has the Master in the parable hand over the unforgiving servant to the jailers until he has paid back every last cent (sounds like hell to me). 🙂 In the end all will kneel before Jesus Christ as their Lord – and all will say that their suffering was worth it! This is the bedrock of my faith. And I have been told by Orthodox priests that while this is only a minority opinion, it is okay to maintain it personally (but not dogmatically) in the Church. And there are many in the Church who believe that it is an absolute commandment to at least hope that all will be saved. I applaud you for refusing to hold a belief about God that seems to you, as it also seems to me, to be more akin to hate than to love.

    By the way, John, I love George MacDonald too. You can get the complete set of his unabridged works (50+ books!) for $1.99 on the kindle.

    To other posters: I know I am in a real minority, but please do not try to take my belief that hell must be remedial away from me. No one can possibly convince me that a God of Love could maintain anyone in torment forever. Consider it a lost cause. I just want John to know that he is not alone in his conviction, and that if he were to come into Orthodoxy he doesn’t have to believe something that is utterly morally repugnant to him.

  6. dee Avatar
    dee

    As Saint John Chrysostom once stated, you can find all your answers (even if you lost all Scriptures) in the parable of the Good Father (or of the prodigal or of the elder son), it is all there, and there is certainly no “sending” of anybody out of any banquet or to any kind of hell.

    According to Orthodox understanding, God loves all equally and eternally, there is equal love towards the highest of creatures (His all Holy Mother) as well as the lowest (Satan), there is no difference on his part whatsoever, even though His omnipotence is not stronger than a free beings’ choice (that other ‘god’ called Ego)…!

    Oh what beauty in coming to such a God like a small child…!

  7. dee Avatar
    dee

    There is nothing easier and more natural that coming to know God, but, He cannot be known as an object of my ego driven curiosity (with a capital ‘I’ and a small ‘g’ – for god), he can only be known relationally as Who He really is, with a small i (I am the creature here) and a capital G ( He is my Creator…).
    The shocking thing is that, when we do get to know Him, we see that he is the humble One beyond all descriptions and we are the ones that see ourselves as the centre of the universe! and all he does is smile understandingly as He did towards St. Peter…!

  8. dee Avatar
    dee

    John S,
    in answer to :
    “If love between humans was this difficult, the human population would be 0” :
    St Silouan is not talking about any kind of male-female attraction here, but (the Cross of) total love for all of mankind, even those who refuse to be saved, -the love that Christ is- and the ascetic striving needed to make it one’s own…

  9. fatherstephen Avatar
    fatherstephen

    PJ,
    It is often stated (erroneously) that the 5th Council anathematized the doctrine that “all will be saved.” Even the author of the Orthowiki article gets this wrong. The Council anathematized a teaching of Origen (or associated with Origen) that contained much more than that notion. The text is as follows:

    IF anyone shall say that all reasonable beings will one day be united in one, when the hypostases as well as the numbers and the bodies shall have disappeared, and that the knowledge of the world to come will carry with it the ruin of the worlds, and the rejection of bodies as also the abolition of [all] names, and that there shall be finally an identity of the gnpsis and of the hypostasis; moreover, that in this pretended apocatastasis, spirits only will continue to exist, as it was in the reigned pre-existence: let him be anathema.

    This is a condemnation of a Platonic “Oneness” that destroys even the hypostases (persons). As you can read – this is the great offense that is condemned. It calls it a “pretended apocatastasis.” It is also condemning a pre-existence and other Origenist ideas. But there is no specific defense of hell. Justice is not even a topic. St. Isaac of Syria’s teaching on a final reconciliation would, for example, in no way be condemned by the anathema of the 5th Council.

    The number of notable Orthodox teachers who allow for such a possibility (we do not have sufficient assurance to proclaim it as dogma) in the face of the 5th Council demonstrate the fallacy of those who pass along the hearsay of an affirmation of eternal punishment.

  10. PJ Avatar
    PJ

    Father,

    I was actually thinking of a different canon: “If anyone says or thinks that the punishment of demons and of impious men is only temporary, and will one day have an end, and that a restoration (apokatastasis) will take place of demons and of impious men, let him be anathema.”

    There are indeed some significant figures — east and west — who suggested the possibility of universal reconciliation, though very few actually affirmed it outright, as far as I can tell. These figures constitute a small minority, though, probably because Scripture seems rather clear on the matter (though there are a few contradictory passages…).

    As much as I would like to believe that all are saved, I feel as though I have to humble myself before the clear teaching of Scripture (to me) and the likes of Chrysostom, Augustine, Irenaeus, Basil, Gregory the Great, Jerome, and so on.

    It may be that I am misreading Scripture and that these great men were likewise confused. I devoured von Balthasar’s “Dare We Hope…” with great enthusiasm. I’ve warmed myself before the cosmic optimism of St. Isaac. But, ultimately, I feel as though it would be irresponsible of me to abandon the ancient teaching of eternal alienation from God. My heart rebels at the idea, and my mind falters, but I nonetheless mortify my judgment and submit to the majority teaching of the Church. I will continue to read and pray, of course …

  11. mary benton Avatar
    mary benton

    I believe that God deprives no one of His eternal presence – but whether one considers that heaven or hell is a matter of perspective. I spend very little if any time thinking of hell – not because I am without sin but because I trust that God never withholds His love.

    It is also important to remember that only God can understand the heart of each person. While choosing good would not be a choice if we could not choose evil, many wrong choices are made because of the damages caused by our broken sinful world. (The person born into a highly abusive family is going to have a greater struggle than the person born into a healthy family, etc.)

    This does not mean that the person who has been damaged has no responsibility to seek good – but rather God understands the nature of each person’s struggle and choice better than we do. My “goodness” may be far less good in the eyes of God than someone else’s “mediocrity” if they had to work much harder to achieve that.

    Hence, I do not think much about the eternity of hell (or the lack of it) because God knows what people suffer and when they need healing – or if/when they have truly refused Him. I cannot possibly know that. But I trust that God’s mercy knows no end…

  12. PJ Avatar
    PJ

    “I believe that God deprives no one of His eternal presence – but whether one considers that heaven or hell is a matter of perspective.”

    This is similar to my perspective. It’s like two men: one who is constantly outdoors, and another who dwells in a deep, dark cave. The first appreciates sunlight, how it warms his skin and illuminates his world. The second finds it painful and distressing, for it stings his eyes and reveals his pale, diseased complexion. Likewise, the man who is in Christ will flourish in the glorious presence of the Father, while the man who is outside Christ will suffer from the very same glory, as he will find it unbearable in his corrupted state.

  13. PJ Avatar
    PJ

    This conversation brings to mind a certain thought provoking sermon by Fr. Patrick Reardon on Sapphira and Ananias. It concerns the mercy and judgment of God.

    http://ancientfaith.com/podcasts/allsaints/spiritual_sunspots_acts_51-11

    Fr. Reardon is a very skillful exegete and careful theologian indeed.

  14. fatherstephen Avatar
    fatherstephen

    PJ,
    For the sake of precision, the canon you cite is one of the anathemas in Justinian’s Letter to Patriarch Menas. The status of those anathemas viz. the 5th Council are problematic and subject to debate. It’s a very interesting period with Church history and theology.

  15. dee Avatar
    dee

    Think of it this way:
    someone who truly loves the Lord would say, “I do not mind whether I am in heaven in hell as long as I am with Him – that is all that matters” (and of of course, the Lord is heaven hypostasised)
    Someone who only has space for the god called ego in his world and cannot bear another God, cannot stand being in the presence of the true God whether in hell or heaven…
    Even on earth that dark cave of the ego is pretty hellish.

  16. Connie Avatar
    Connie

    “Someone who only has space for the god called ego in his world and cannot bear another God, cannot stand being in the presence of the true God whether in hell or heaven…Even on earth that dark cave of the ego is pretty hellish.”

    Dee, I am in full agreement with this. But isn’t being subjected to the hell that our own egos can produce part of the judgment of God? And doesn’t that judgment have a redeeming purpose?

  17. PJ Avatar
    PJ

    Father,

    You’re right about the provenance of that canon. I didn’t realize that its legitimacy was disputed.

  18. dinoship Avatar
    dinoship

    Connie.
    being subjected to hell, even when brought about by our own ego, (99.9% of times) is certainly used pedagogically by our Lord, He is Love! He will use everything “that all might be saved”, that is His will, that no one will be damned, He is ready to be Crucified a million times (as He said to Saint Carpus) even to save a single sinner. Damnation is, crazily our will, not His…
    I remember there was a demon screaming (through the voice of a possessed person on the Holy Mountain, who was praying for his salvation with the words “Lord have mercy on him also”, i.e. mercy on the demon that possessed him!), “I, need NO forgiveness or mercy! God needs forgiveness for doing this to ME!, and I will never grant it…!)
    Lord save us from such egocentric self righteousness I beg Thee! That Luciferean self righteousness is at the doorstep of our fallen souls; but, so is Your holiness when we believe in your power and desire to bestow it to us…

  19. Connie Avatar
    Connie

    Dinoship, I can very well believe that a demon could say something like that. For that matter, I believe deluded people can say that too. I understand about stubbornness, about that snaky thing called the ego, that desire for one’s own way. But it is because I understand it that I can pity those enslaved to it, can pity myself, can pity those who die in it. Yes, we have free will, and it can bring us down pretty dire roads. I appreciate that the belief in free will is the basis for the belief that hell is eternal – the belief that someone can resist the love of God forever and ever. But it is possible to look at hell from an entirely different standpoint where free will is not compromised yet Love wins:

    All children at heart want Love. They want God, but as we know, we all end up believing lies and accumulate all sorts of substitutes for God. Those who continue to insist on sticking to those substitutes and die thinking their own will and not God’s is what will bring them happiness are indeed in for a rude awakening! When in the outer darkness, where all lies cease and all substitutes for God are taken away, it will be painful — it will be hell. And it is to be feared! “They who hate Zion shall be put to shame by the Lord. They will be withered up like grass by the fire.” But this is a good healing place to be! Haven’t we all felt withered up in shame before our loving God? In hell, stripped of all hindrances, that inner child will again be revealed. He will be able to finally, clearly, see the Truth and thus freely respond to Him. In the end, Love never fails. It’s right there in the Bible. 🙂 (I Cor. 13:8)

    I suppose this is all just theory. But for the life of me I could never say that a human being freely chose his own damnation. I must believe that the insanity from which such a choice would derive can be healed, if not now, then in the afterlife.

  20. dinoship Avatar
    dinoship

    By all means Connie! That is the reason why we pray for the deceased.
    We never would if we did not have that hope.

    We cannot really talk about (when our souls will be joined to body at) the end of the ages, but the Church believes, knows in fact, that souls can now come out of “hell” and into “heaven”, we all pray for them…

    Elder Paisios said that this was far easier for sinful souls who died enslaved to passions but a great deal harder for souls who were enamoured with Luciferean pride…

  21. PJ Avatar
    PJ

    “We cannot really talk about (when our souls will be joined to body at) the end of the ages, but the Church believes, knows in fact, that souls can now come out of “hell” and into “heaven”, we all pray for them…”

    Really? I didn’t realize this was a teaching of the Orthodox church. Interesting. Isn’t this basically purgatory, then?

    Connie,

    “I appreciate that the belief in free will is the basis for the belief that hell is eternal”

    I don’t think belief in free will is first and foremost responsible for the widespread Christian belief in hell. There are numerous statements, from Christ and His Apostles which, taken at face value, suggest the eternal nature of damnation.

    For instance: “And these will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power” (II Thessalonians 1:9).

    Or: “And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life” (Matthew 25:46).

    To me, these are very difficult to dismiss without engaging in serious exegetical acrobatics.

    That said, there are other verses which do seem to hint at universal reconciliation, albeit not so explicitly. For instance, I Corinthians 15:28: “God may be all in all.” Or Ephesians 1:8-10: “[T]he summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things upon the earth.”

    If we are not simply to reject those aspects of Scripture we dislike, then we must seek to harmonize these conflicting passages. I conclude, with a number of others, that God will indeed be present with all at the end of the ages, but that this experience will vary depending on one’s own relationship to Christ. The fire that Daniel saw coming out from the Divine Throne will warm some and scorch others.

    This is, as has been amply demonstrated in this thread, a tender topic. It must be approached carefully. If we preach fire and brimstone, we disfigure the gospel, which reveals that “God is love.” And yet … If we simply toss away the notion of damnation, which countless saints and fathers have acknowledged and even spoke at length about (including eastern greats like John Chrysostom), then we are irresponsible. Or worse: we mislead people and put their souls in jeopardy.

    If this discussion has taught me anything, it is that we must tread delicately regarding eschatology, taking care to recognize that we cannot understand the ways of God. To speak rashly of His mysteries is reckless and even spiritually lethal. May He have mercy on us all!

  22. dinoship Avatar
    dinoship

    Philip,
    No, it is nothing like “purgatory”. I do not see how you deduced that. That is a notion entirely different.

    It is nothing but the law of communicating vessels. We, the living (and the “truly living” i.e. the Theotokos, St. George, St. Anthony, St. Silouan etc…) – as it is us who are the ones take a soul from Hades- are communicating vessels with the departed who died unprepared

  23. Andrew Avatar

    Dinoship, would you mind explaining what you mean by italicised, as it is not immediately clear:

    It is nothing but the law of communicating vessels. We, the living (and the “truly living” i.e. the Theotokos, St. George, St. Anthony, St. Silouan etc…) – as it is us who are the ones take a soul from Hades- are communicating vessels with the departed who died unprepared.

    Thanks..

  24. PJ Avatar
    PJ

    Dino,

    I don’t mean to be daft. Perhaps I am misunderstanding you. Purgatory is state wherein the soul is purified. This purification is hurried along with the help of the prayers of the saints in heaven and on earth. This “temporary hell” (to put it crudely) is the essence of purgatory.

    I’m also curious as to what you mean by “it is us who are the ones take a soul from Hades…”

  25. fatherstephen Avatar
    fatherstephen

    PJ,
    Orthodoxy makes a distinction between hell and purgatory – at least purgatory as it is understood and defined in the RC Church. They hell may be temporary is, however, clearly held – though in such a case it will have been “purifying.” In the broader discussion, any idea of a temporary character to something less than paradise would have clear similarity. The distinctions lie in the details. The doctrine of purgatory, as classically taught by the RCC was rejected by the Orthodox in the teachings of St. Mark of Ephesus (in his rejections of Florence) and affirmed by the Orthodox Church. Orthodoxy uses “hell” in a very broad sense, rather than the rather detailed divisions and subdivisions taught in the scholasticism of medieval Rome.

  26. dinoship Avatar
    dinoship

    I keep trying to post the answer but it doesn’t seem to be working, and it also keeps saying something like “duplicate answer, it looks like you have already said that”…
    is there a way around this problem?

  27. Cathy Avatar
    Cathy

    Fr. Stephen — I would very much like your perspective on the following that was sent to me in a weekly e-mail by a church member (I am evangelical). This typifies the tone and tenor of our church’s sermons.

    “With a vast parade of humanity marching towards the abrupt cliff that leads to the cavernous depths of Hell, do we rationalize, excuse & deflect responsibility so as to maintain & grasp our own temporal comfort and ease?

    But say some, “I may get fired?” …Paul was stoned!

    “My neighbors will ignore me and avoid me.” …Steven was killed, as was Peter, James…etc..etc…

    Christ calls us still!
    “Go ye into all the world and preach the gospel…”

    Why the lack of desperation in our actions & in our prayers?!?!”

    I tend to feel guilt, despair and personal pressure from this way of looking at salvation, and it is driving me out of the church. Thank you for your input.

  28. drewster2000 Avatar
    drewster2000

    Fr. Stephen, just 2 things:

    1.
    I very much appreciate your elaboration on oral tradition and your brother’s dancing. This makes a whole lot of sense to me. It also seems to have God’s signature on it. What I mean is, it’s just like Him to keep His treasures in earthly vessels. When John S commented on the impossibility of the tradition being handed down unscathed in such conditions, I was reminded that God set things up such that it HAS to be Him, since otherwise it truly would be impossible. If we rely on Tradition in the truest sense of the word, we are walking in faith. Amazing!

    2.
    Your comment to Brian about the Protestant church not being the church made me sad. Maybe we can chalk it up to North America’s deep sense of poor self-esteem and toxic shame, but a statement feels painful. Call me a brother with lots of problems, but please don’t kick me out of the family.

    I fully understand the implications this can bring about concerning communing at the same table. I’m not asking to share the same bread and wine, just to be acknowledged as a brother. Call the Protestant branch what you will – and probably with great accuracy – but please do the kindness of reserving judgment and calling it something other than NOT the church. We are still, after all is said and done, one body.

  29. dee Avatar
    dee

    Philip and Andrew,
    I am not making sense! I am sorry! Let me attempt clarifying:
    God’s pedagogy (or purification) only takes place in this life. (on united body and soul united). Hades isn’t pedagogy, it is the way the soul feels after death (as of course, is the opposite too), dependent on its ontological predisposition towards “relational being” (which is the only true Being) -something acquired in this life. (not somewhere a souls is “sent to be purified” -that is quite a different notion, pregnant with problems).

    Saying, “it is us who are the ones take a soul from Hades” I meant “us” as in those who pray or cry, give alms etc. for the salvation of the deceased.
    Many fathers describe tears for the salvation of the departed as form of alms-giving. The late Elder Ephraim Katounakiotis “took the soul” of his (shockingly harsh) Elder/Geronda “out of hell” thanks to his endless tears during his many “sarandaleitourga” (a set of 40 consecutive Liturgies for the departed) for him.
    It is God, the Source of mercy Himself, of course, who bestows such tears, it is Him that desires the salvation even of those ‘damned’ souls through such mysterious ways that respect even the ‘”accuser’s” (devil’s) rights’…
    Elder Paisios has also talked on this subject. Talking and analysing such matters is not my thing. But, I would urge anyone who spends time praying for others to pray for the dead, -I would hope for the Church’s prayers myself.
    We are communicating vessels, and this is felt far more by a saint (a hypostatic being, as Elder Sophrony loved saying) than by an individual who feels separated from the rest. One is never saved alone. That peace that is acquired by a Saint which flows out to “myriads around him”(as St. Seraphim said) includes living and dead.

  30. PJ Avatar
    PJ

    Drewster,

    As a person with a number of very devout and wonderful Protestant friends, I can sympathize and empathize with your position.

    However, historically speaking, the Church call itself “one Body” *precisely because it partakes of one loaf and one cup.* The “bread and wine,” as you say, have everything to do with it. We are one Body because we feast on the flesh and blood of one Lord.

    That said, the explosion of sects after the Reformation has made it difficult to maintain that ancient teaching without seeming extremely uncharitable. My Protestant friends and I have spent long hours trying to get to untangle this knot.

    Alas, the divisions among those who call themselves disciples of Christ and worshippers of the Trinity are indeed scandalous! Lord help us!

    Father,

    Thanks for clearing that up. No doubt there are differences in the specifics, but it seems Catholics and Orthodox agree — in contrast to Protestants — on the purification of sinful souls, prayers for the dead, etc. There are some who have grasped the crown of salvation, yet are not fit to enter into the fullness of the Triune life, and so undergo purgation, assisted by the spiritual and material oblations of the saints in heaven and on earth.

  31. John Shores Avatar
    John Shores

    dinoship:

    “…a demon screaming…’I, need NO forgiveness or mercy! God needs forgiveness for doing this to ME!…’ Lord save us from such egocentric self righteousness…”

    I doubt that you will find many people like me saying such things or even thinking them. After all, “he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him.” I have yet to meet the criterion of the first portion of that sentence (as do many others).

    I think it is important not to confuse what you term “egocentric self righteousness” with honest unbelief. Only one who believes in god will scream such things. Those who don’t believe in god fall into several camps:

    1) We don’t believe but are open to meeting god should s/he present her/himself

    2) We don’t believe and simply don’t care about the “supernatural” or superstitions (except insofar as these things destroy a person’s ability to think clearly)

    3) We don’t believe but would gladly (and rightly) utter “Christians (or ‘the church’) need forgiveness for doing this to me!”

    This last item is not the same thing as being angry at god.

    My point is this: It is very easy to demonize people and make assumptions based on one’s own belief system. That is, it is simple to think that all atheists and agnostics are somehow in rebellion and railing aginst god. But I have found that this is not the case. Pissed at the church or at Christians? Yes. Upset for being duped? Yep. Angry at god? Absolutely not. To be angry at god is to “believe that He is.” Most of us agnostics are very far removed from such a notion and any true atheists are completely so. Does this make them bad? Nope. Goodness and belief have no correlation with one another.

    By way of example, there are many Christians who fear and hate atheists and who will gladly browbeat them with doctrines of eternal damnation. To my mind, this falls outside the definition of “goodness” or even “decency.” Of course there are many who would not. Either way, the goodness or lack thereof has nothing to do with the doctrines of one’s faith and everything to do with the individual.

  32. dinoship Avatar
    dinoship

    Philip,
    I am not making sense! I am sorry! Let me attempt clarifying:
    God’s pedagogy (or purification) only takes place in this life. (on united body and soul united). Hades isn’t pedagogy, it is the way the soul feels after death (as of course, is the opposite too), dependent on its ontological predisposition towards “relational being” (which is the only true Being) -something acquired in this life. (not somewhere a souls is “sent to be purified” -that is quite a different notion, pregnant with problems).

  33. John Shores Avatar
    John Shores

    Cathy:

    “With a vast parade of humanity marching towards the abrupt cliff that leads to the cavernous depths of Hell, do we rationalize, excuse & deflect responsibility so as to maintain & grasp our own temporal comfort and ease?”…”I tend to feel guilt, despair and personal pressure from this way of looking at salvation, and it is driving me out of the church.”

    I think this is far more common than you might suppose. To my mind, though, leaving Christianity solely because the people in your church are nincompoops is a bad reason to leave. Christianity must stand or fall on its own merits.

    If you are afraid that leaving your particular sect is equivalent to “falling away” then I think you are in a very abusive and bad relationship. After all, the words of Jesus in the Gospels were harshest when speaking to the religious nutjobs who were lording it over the people and had no concept that god might actually be a decent person.

    If you accept the premise of the Christian god, I think you can do no better than to acquaint yourself with Orthodox teachings. The forms of worship will weird you out at first but as you come to understand them I think you will find a great deal of satisfaction in your heart and mind. When I first ran across a pseudo-orthodox church, it was like eating healthy food for the first time. There is a satisfaction associated with good health that is incomparable.

    It is difficult to believe in the Christian god, be exposed to Orthodox thought, and not embrace it. It is, as far as I can tell, the most reasonable, kind and loving form of Christianity out there.

  34. dinoship Avatar
    dinoship

    John,
    you reminded me of the words of a deconverted priest I once had a converstation with, and both remind me of St. John Chrysostom’s saying that the only reason unbelief even exists in this world is because the believers are not saints.
    Of course in his time the Church was still pre-schism.
    I cannot help thinking how I would love to take you with me to the Holy Mountain to meet certain persons!
    Lacking that, I trust God has a better plan for you.
    I wish you all the best!

  35. dinoship Avatar
    dinoship

    Andrew and PJ,
    when I wrote “it is us who are the ones take a soul from Hades” I meant “us” who pray, cry, give alms etc. for the salvation of the deceased.

    We are all communicating vessels, and this is felt far more vividly by a saint (a truly hypostatic being, as Elder Sophrony loved saying) than by an individual who feels separate from others. One is not saved alone. The peace that is acquired by a Saint which flows over to “thousands around him” includes living and dead.

    Many fathers describe tears for the salvation of the departed as almsgiving. The late radiant Elder Ephraim of Katounakia “took the soul” of his first (shockingly harsh) Elder/Geronda “out of hell” thanks to his endless tears during his many “sarandaleitourga” (a set of 40 consecutive Liturgies) for him. It is the Source of mercy Himself, of course, who bestows those tears, it is Him that wants to save even those ‘damned’ souls through this mysterious way that respects even the ‘devils rights’…
    Elder Paisios has also talked extensively on the subject using different language. I must admit though, talking and analysing such matters is not my forte. I would urge anyone who spends any time praying for others to pray for the dead, and would hope for the Church’s prayers myself.

  36. John Shores Avatar
    John Shores

    Cathy – Another benefit to studying Orthodox thought is an enlargement of your vocabulary. You’ll have all kinds of fun learning how to use “pedagogy,” “anathemas,” and “chrismate” correctly in a sentence!

  37. John Shores Avatar
    John Shores

    dinoship:

    I would love to take you with me to the Holy Mountain

    If it’s in Colorado, I may be able to oblige you.

  38. Cathy Avatar
    Cathy

    J.S. — That is precisely why I’m here. I intend to read Schmemann, Dostoyevsky and Father Freeman’s book when I get the chance. Right now I’m trying to digest Chesterton. Since I’m so ensconced in the evangelical worldview, it is difficult to see outside of it. Hence, my question to Father Stephen. The e-mail in question encapsulates the assumptions with which I was raised.

  39. dinoship Avatar
    dinoship

    Andrew,

    By, “it is us who are the ones take a soul from Hades” I mean “us” who pray, cry, give alms etc. for the salvation of the deceased.
    Many fathers describe tears for the salvation of the departed as almsgiving. The late radiant Elder Ephraim of Katounakia “took the soul” of his first (shockingly harsh) Elder/Geronda “out of hell” thanks to his endless tears during his many “sarandaleitourga” (a set of 40 consecutive Liturgies) for him. It is the Source of mercy Himself, of course, who bestows those tears, it is Him that wants to save even those ‘damned’ souls through this mysterious way that respects even the ‘devils rights’…
    Elder Paisios has also talked on the subject.

  40. dinoship Avatar
    dinoship

    We are all communicating vessels, and this is felt far more vividly by a saint (a truly hypostatic being, as Elder Sophrony loved saying) than by an individual who feels separate from others. One is not saved alone. The peace that is acquired by a Saint which flows over to “thousands around him” includes living and dead.

  41. PJ Avatar
    PJ

    John,

    I think you’re right about noting the “schism” (heh) among disbelievers. I also think that Christians who convert from disbelief are prone to assume that all disbelievers are members of their former camp. Thus I find myself assuming that agnostics and atheists are cruel-spirited, small-hearted, self-absorbed libertines, for that describes me prior to putting on Christ. This is a totally groundless assumption (usually), and thus serves me poorly.

    By the way, I feel as though we got off on the wrong foot. Now that I see you’ll be hanging around, I’d like to apologize for having nipped at you in previous threads. I’m sort of territorial. I consider this blog a spiritual sanctuary, and I interpreted your critiques and questions as the equivalent of some logging company trying to clearcut a pristine forest! I now see that you are an honest seeker. I still think that you’re a bit hazy on some of the realities of authentic Christian — still think you’re letting your jaded attitude get the better of you — but we’re all hurting somehow. We’re all wounded. That is why I’m a Christian: I want the Divine Physician to heal my broken heart. Hope to see you around. And pardon me in advance if I ever get testy!

  42. PJ Avatar
    PJ

    Cathy,

    What sort of evangelical? Are you an Arminian or a Calvinist?

  43. Cathy Avatar
    Cathy

    PJ — My church is Calvinist. I’ve struggled with the doctrine greatly. Ergo, I don’t consider myself Calvinist. Mostly, I consider myself confused. And a little fearful of God.

  44. Greg Avatar
    Greg

    An article relevant to this topic examining the teaching of St Silouan and the writings of Dostoevsky (We Must Pray for the Salvation of All):

    http://www.bogoslov.ru/en/text/2314168.html

    John, many moons ago I started reading this blog as an atheist and someone who had for decades actively disliked Christianity – not least, I now believe, because of my evangelical-fundamentalist upbringing. Completely understand where you are coming from.

  45. PJ Avatar
    PJ

    Cathy,

    Ah. Of course. Chesterton said, “It took fifteen hundred years for the sweet wine of Catholicism to turn into the bitter vinegar of Calvinism.”

    Calvinism is Islamicized Christianity: all about power and control. It is of the utmost importance that you begin to reconsider the meaning of the Cross. Forget this repulsive notion of the Father pouring out His infinite fury on His hapless Son. You must put aside the notion that the Cross is a mechanistic judicial and penal event. Rather, it is the ultimate identification of God with His creatures. It is substitutionary in a sense, yes, but it is so much more: it is the destruction of death by the self-sacrifice of the Immortal One. It cannot be seen apart from the Resurrection. Father Stephen is very good at emphasizing this central truth.

    Classical, patristic Christianity emphasizes our union with God through the Incarnate Word, who combines Divine and Human natures in One Person, and thus bridges the gap between creature and Creator, the finite and the infinite. The Christian life is then understood as communion with God through Christ in the Spirit. We are sons and daughters in the Son. Through the Eucharist, we become one with Him: we become the Body to the holy Head. By dying to ourselves, by putting on Christ through the sacraments, we are brought into intimate friendship and brotherhood with the very Lord of Life!

    Whew. I’m rambling, I fear. I just don’t want you to fall away from the Eternal Logos, in whom you are formed into a perfect word of truth, because of the wayward teachings of Calvin. (Not to mention that Calvin is pretty darn catholic/orthodox next to many of his contemporary followers.)

    May I suggest you meditate on 1 Corinthians 1:18-25?

    Hope I haven’t overwhelmed you. God bless! I will pray for you, sister!

  46. dinoship Avatar
    dinoship

    John,
    I think that every single thing we do apart from Grace is an expression of our ego no matter how distantly related. “egocentric self righteousness” is certainly not “honest unbelief”, but, both have some relation to the ego.
    Whether we believe or not, like it or not, we all have a god we believe in, be it our opinions, our reasoning, our weaknesses, our interests. What takes up my mind and heart this moment is my god.
    At the same time, I might ‘think’ I do not believe, yet, somehow, I might be proved wrong when in a different situation to my current one.
    God has situations up His sleeve that virtually render man’s damnation (let alone unbelief) virtually impossible (according to Elder Aimilianos of Simonopetra – Holy Mountain), yet holds them back until the very end

  47. PJ Avatar
    PJ

    I recall that, even in the depths of my unbelief, there were times when I turned to God in desperation. I think I have noted that I am a recovering addict. Several times I came very near to overdosing. More than once I found myself praying, “If You save me, O God, I will be Yours.” It took me a while to make good on my promises, but what’s a handful of years in the light of eternity?

  48. Connie Avatar
    Connie

    Greg says: An article relevant to this topic examining the teaching of St Silouan and the writings of Dostoevsky (We Must Pray for the Salvation of All):

    http://www.bogoslov.ru/en/text/2314168.html

    Thank you Greg for this wonderful link!

  49. drewster2000 Avatar
    drewster2000

    PJ,

    From watching your comments over the past few months, I was not surprised by your response. You are consistent. You gave me justice, as dictated by the Law.

    But your words were not without merit, in that they made me stop and wonder just exactly what it is I want from the Orthodox, if it’s not to commune at their table. I have an answer.

    I want mercy. I want friendship – without being patronized. I want the general message I hear from them to be something like, “Though estranged, you are our brother.” And not a constant, subtle but firm message of “Your less than us. We speak with you because we would also speak to prostitutes and tax collectors. When you want to be a true christian, you know where to come.”

    I don’t expect anyone to pretend that I’m Orthodox or in full communion. But also don’t expect anyone to tell me that I’m not really a Christian. I’m OK with being the red-headed step-child, as long as I’m identified as being part of the family. But I generally find this admission long in coming from the Orthodox quarter.

    And let me make it plain that I’m taking the denominational perspective here, not actually fighting for my own acceptance.

  50. Cathy Avatar
    Cathy

    From PJ: “You must put aside the notion that the Cross is a mechanistic judicial and penal event.” Yes, it was exactly this notion that catalyzed my descent into theological anxiety.

  51. fatherstephen Avatar
    fatherstephen

    Indeed! wonderful article!

  52. fatherstephen Avatar
    fatherstephen

    Drewster,
    Your desire makes sense…but it’s easy to misunderstand Orthodox reticence. The ecumenical tendency of Protestants, in which Church has a decidedly different meaning, is (for many Orthodox) the most essential modern heresy. Though it is not intended so by those who hold it. It’s an interesting history of how ecumenism and the disappearance of the Protestant Churches as “Churches” occurred. It’s rooted in the Evangelical Alliance movements of the 19th century – eventually resulting in the WCC which most Evangelicals today would denounce. Most of the Orthodox Churches belong to the WCC, though there has been a growing number who are withdrawing. I favor withdrawal myself (I would discuss this at another time).

    But Ecumenism is very touchy for the Orthodox. It is true – anyone who names Jesus as Lord (in an orthodox sense – little “o” intended) is a brother in Christ and a Christian. The status of their sacraments or ordinances is a matter that cannot ultimately be spoken to. For the Orthodox, the only question would be how to receive them into union with the Orthodox Church. Orthodoxy does not deny the true Christianity of others, but must deny that the Church is other than One. If that One Church is not the Orthodox Church, then we ourselves must repent and enter it.

    My personal perspective, particularly as a convert (and convert clergyman to boot) who loved and studied Orthodoxy for about 25 years before becoming Orthodox – I have nothing by understanding for the many positions those who stand outside the Orthodox Church may find themselves in. I’ve probably been in most of them and I cannot judge anyone else. What God has for us – and how the journey goes – is in His hands alone.

    If I’m ever too cold or stand-offish – I apologize. The wealth of the life of the Church and the good things God has given us are to be shared with everyone – regardless – and together we can relish them with joy.

    But I do try to keep the light burning in the lighthouse, for those who want to come ashore, or need the light to see around the rocky waters. I can’t judge another man’s lantern – but I only have the one lighthouse on my map.

    With brotherly affection!

  53. John Shores Avatar
    John Shores

    PJ:

    I’d like to apologize for having nipped at you in previous threads. I’m sort of territorial.

    Not on the wrong foot at all. I totally understand from whence thou comest. Anything short of insulting my mother rolls off my back. I’ve had a lifetime of paranoia based in hellfire theology. There is nothing you can say in that quarter that will phase me in the least. And I fully recognize your intent. I did not feel slighted or slammed at all.

    If Fr. Stephen ever asks me to leave, I certainly shall. I just enjoy the conversation. As I’ve said before, those of an Orthodox mindset seem to me the only rational Christians out there. I hope that my posts inspire thoughtful dialogue. I’m not here to be a pain in the arse.

    Greg: Thanks. It’s nice to be in this dialogue with you and Erin and Cathy and others who don’t simply write-off people of a differing viewpoint.

    dinoship:

    …we all have a god we believe in, be it our opinions, our reasoning…

    This is a thought very familiar to the Protestant viewpoint which, taken to extremes, ends up thinking that Catholics and Orthodox Christians are idol worshippers. But it seems to me that to equate “god” with “that which occupies most of my thought” is a mistake and devalues the deity. It is a bit like comparing timespace to an abacus. One is so vastly more infinite and dynamic than the other that no comparison can be made between them.

    I think that every single thing we do apart from Grace is an expression of our ego no matter how distantly related. “egocentric self righteousness” is certainly not “honest unbelief”, but, both have some relation to the ego.

    One of the side-effects of losing my faith was a profound and deeply humbling new awareness of this universe. I used to think in terms of everything “passing away” and so the reality around me had far less significance than the hope of the next life. Take away eternity and this time and place comes into focus. The grandeur and wonder of this physical realm and the awareness of how small we actually are had a profound impact on me. Far from “egocentric self righteousness,” accepting how insignificant we are within this cosmos was truly humbling.

    Casting one like me in a role where honest unbelief is simply a manifestation of an inflated ego is simply incorrect. If one seeks for and does not find god and then says, “Let’s assume for now that there is no god,” the natural result is not pride but rather terrible fear (because now our responsibility toward others and our natural environment rests solely with us), wonder, amazement, intrigue, a thirst for understanding, and a need to reevaluate how to view the universe. At least, this was my experience.

    “People are not essentially bad. They are not essentially good. They are essentially people.” Stripping away judgment in this manner has helped me tremendously in ways that I was never able to grasp as a Christian.

    It is my hope that you will be able to comprehend this not in the light of one who is arguing but in the light of one who has experienced a life without god and found both wonders and terrors. I now find it to be almost impossible to say “this person is (fill in the blank)” as if that settles the matter. There is no such thing as a true conservative or liberal or a true extrovert or introvert. Nothing is that clear cut.

    I think this is where you and I disagree. It seems you want to have a clear cut box into which you can fit people. This is a natural human trait. We like to think that we understand. Acknowledging that we don’t understand (or know) is not egocentric. It’s simply honest. That kind of honesty is impossible (in my opinion) without a great deal of humility founded on much searching and striving after knowledge (or truth, if you will).

  54. John Shores Avatar
    John Shores

    Sorry Fr. S. You can delete that weirded post.

  55. John Shores Avatar
    John Shores

    PJ:

    I’d like to apologize for having nipped at you in previous threads. I’m sort of territorial.

    Not on the wrong foot at all. I totally understand from whence thou comest. Anything short of insulting my mother rolls off my back. I’ve had a lifetime of paranoia based in hellfire theology. There is nothing you can say in that quarter that will phase me in the least. And I fully recognize your intent. I did not feel slighted or slammed at all.

    If Fr. Stephen ever asks me to leave, I certainly shall. I just enjoy the conversation. As I’ve said before, those of an Orthodox mindset seem to me the only rational Christians out there. I hope that my posts inspire thoughtful dialogue. I’m not here to be a pain in the arse.

    Greg: Thanks. It’s nice to be in this dialogue with you and Erin and Cathy and others who don’t simply write-off people of a differing viewpoint.

    dinoship:

    …we all have a god we believe in, be it our opinions, our reasoning…

    This is a thought very familiar to the Protestant viewpoint which, taken to extremes, ends up thinking that Catholics and Orthodox Christians are idol worshippers. But it seems to me that to equate “god” with “that which occupies most of my thought” is a mistake and devalues the deity. It is a bit like comparing timespace to an abacus. One is so vastly more infinite and dynamic than the other that no comparison can be made between them.

    I think that every single thing we do apart from Grace is an expression of our ego no matter how distantly related. “egocentric self righteousness” is certainly not “honest unbelief”, but, both have some relation to the ego.

    One of the side-effects of losing my faith was a profound and deeply humbling new awareness of this universe. I used to think in terms of everything “passing away” and so the reality around me had far less significance than the hope of the next life. Take away eternity and this time and place comes into focus. The grandeur and wonder of this physical realm and the awareness of how small we actually are had a profound impact on me. Far from “egocentric self righteousness,” accepting how insignificant we are within this cosmos was truly humbling.

    Casting one like me in a role where honest unbelief is simply a manifestation of an inflated ego is simply incorrect. If one seeks for and does not find god and then says, “Let’s assume for now that there is no god,” the natural result is not pride but rather terrible fear (because now our responsibility toward others and our natural environment rests solely with us), wonder, amazement, intrigue, a thirst for understanding, and a need to reevaluate how to view the universe. At least, this was my experience.

    “People are not essentially bad. They are not essentially good. They are essentially people.” Stripping away judgment in this manner has helped me tremendously in ways that I was never able to grasp as a Christian.

    It is my hope that you will be able to comprehend this not in the light of one who is arguing but in the light of one who has experienced a life without god and found both wonders and terrors. I now find it to be almost impossible to say “this person is (fill in the blank)” as if that settles the matter. There is no such thing as a true conservative or liberal or a true extrovert or introvert. Nothing is that clear cut.

    I think this is where you and I disagree. It seems you want to have a clear cut box into which you can fit people. This is a natural human trait. We like to think that we understand. Acknowledging that we don’t understand (or know) is not egocentric. It’s simply honest. That kind of honesty is impossible (in my opinion) without a great deal of humility founded on much searching and striving after knowledge (or truth, if you will).

  56. PJ Avatar
    PJ

    Drewster,

    Personally, anyone who calls Jesus Christ Lord and worships the Triune God, I consider entitled to the name “Christian.” I won’t contest that. I’ll happily call them a brother or sister, too.

  57. mary benton Avatar
    mary benton

    Re: discussion on who is part of “the Church”. Growing up RC, I was taught so much about the “one true faith” that as a child, I thought I might be commiting a sin by stepping inside a Lutheran church – when there wasn’t even a service going on!

    I am still RC but my views far now are more embracing of difference. I am quite comfortable calling Protestants (who are not all the same) brother/sister – and I can call Muslims, Jews, Buddhists, agnostics and atheists brother/sister too. This does not mean that I believe all churches’ teachings are equally true – far from it.

    However, I do believe that within all of these groups there are good and earnest children of God who may, for a miriad of reasons, not call God by name or know Jesus as Christ. As someone else suggested, we are all broken, all on a path and it is neither wise nor loving to judge someone else’s place on the path.

    So you are all my brothers and sisters… (Lest anyone is getting ready to blast me for seeming to minimize the importance of choice of c/Church, it is unnecessary to do so. I think that is a very important choice – but not the most important. See Matthew 22:36-40 for the most important.)

  58. drewster2000 Avatar
    drewster2000

    Fr. Stephen,

    I more than accept the arm of friendship and the title of brother that you extend. In not so many words, you’ve done this before and I’m glad your position hasn’t changed. I greatly treasure your words and hope you don’t get in any trouble for extending such warm hospitality. (wink)

    I don’t know what the WCC is but I’ve read enough of church history to believe everything you say. You really aren’t stand-offish at all. Any cold shoulders I’ve gotten have been elsewhere in Orthodoxy. Every once in awhile the heresy of the Protestants gets you a bit riled and you speak thus, but you really can’t be blamed. I guess I was just reaffirming your true feelings once the dust settles. Thanks again for your response.

  59. mary benton Avatar
    mary benton

    John S –

    “We like to think that we understand. Acknowledging that we don’t understand (or know) is not egocentric. It’s simply honest. That kind of honesty is impossible (in my opinion) without a great deal of humility founded on much searching and striving after knowledge (or truth, if you will).”

    Well said.

  60. drewster2000 Avatar
    drewster2000

    PJ,

    I expected this from as well. (grin) Like all of us, you battle within as much or more than without. Mercy and justice must really have it out sometimes within your own heart!

    Thank you, for counting me as a brother. It has become obvious to more than a few people here that a strange sort of community has formed, made possible by the internet. And I count myself part of it. God truly does work in mysterious ways.

    yours in Christ, Drewster

  61. Andrew Avatar

    JS,

    Indeed, we are truly humbled at the Dawn of our Realisation — and also utterly liberated in our souls, irreversibly so…

    Excellent comment, thank you.

  62. dinoship Avatar
    dinoship

    John Shores,
    “One is so vastly more infinite and dynamic than the other that no comparison can be made between them.” that is correct, but, I was of course talking of something quite different when saying “our god” (what occupies me at the present moment) the “one God”…! I hoped that was fairly clear – sorry.

    “the natural result is not pride but rather terrible fear” fear is also based on the ego, I am certainly not referring to just an extreme luciferean pride when saying that we are all motivated by our self-centredness after the fall when without Grace. In the “Ladder of Divine ascent” by St. John Climacus there are explicit explanations of the subtle manifestations of the ego as fear, ‘purity’, ‘humility’,’meekness’, despair, worry, sadness, depression.
    It is not just the usual manifestations of pride, vanity, anger or hautiness…

  63. dinoship Avatar
    dinoship

    sorry, i meant:

    “I was of course talking of something quite different when saying “our god” (what occupies me at the present moment) THAN the “one God”…!

  64. dinoship Avatar
    dinoship

    John Shores,
    please remember that as far as I can, I am not talking, as an ‘individual’ with an individual ( = Protestant) understanding here; I can potentially be grossly misunderstood with the following, but: I am coming to these arguments more as a carrier of a tradition, representative of an institution, I really don’t want “my own mostly mistaken thinking” and I would rather trust only “the infallible mind of the Church” – not my own “mind/opininons” (I would hope to be liberated from that…)
    So:
    “We like to think that we understand. Acknowledging that we don’t understand (or know) is not egocentric. It’s simply honest. That kind of honesty is impossible (in my opinion) without a great deal of humility founded on much searching and striving after knowledge (or truth, if you will).”
    Indeed.
    However, “acknowledging that we don’t understand” when going against the “accepted understanding” of Spirit bearing Saints, Fathers and Apostles, as preserved in the living tradition of the Orthodox Church can be a reactive confrontation rather than an honest realisation. Striving for ‘my own kind of knowledge’ (as an Orthodox) when I am part of the body of Christ and true knowledge is “traditioned down” to me from my fathers, elders, the Church, can also signify an ego-based variance/separation from the body of Christ.
    We say that: ‘Trusting solely on reasoning, not asking for what God might think would have saved Adam from falling.’

    God is right there in front of you and right here in front of me, I cannot reason away any doubts concerning this, I either
    (1) live under His gaze and exist eucharistically within His existence, or (2) carry on the adventure of Me.
    I have suffered for many years not wanting the former life (Joy),(1),
    while looking for the latter adventure (“answers”)(2)
    Besides, the real answers only ever come the more we opt for (1)

  65. dinoship Avatar
    dinoship

    Connie,
    thanks for the link! very pertinent to this conversation…

  66. PJ Avatar
    PJ

    “However, I do believe that within all of these groups there are good and earnest children of God who may, ”

    This is actually an interesting question and a large debate in and of itself.

    Being a “child of God” has a rather specific meaning in Scripture: We are sons and daughters of God by virtue of our life in *the* Son of God. “But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God” (John 1:12). In this sense, being a “child of God” is not the default, but a mode of existence achieved by saving participation in the Word.

    Then again, on the other hand, in a metaphorical way (as opposed to a mystical way), we are all children of God, for we are all His creatures.

  67. Karen Avatar
    Karen

    Cathy,

    I was never a convinced Calvinist when I was Evangelical, but that strain of thought still impacted me. It was also *Penal* Substitution theory that eventually unraveled the childlike trust in God’s Self-giving love through Christ I had started out with in my Methodist Sunday school (though not until early-mid adulthood). If it were not for my discovery of the Orthodox faith, I don’t know what I would have done.

  68. Karen Avatar
    Karen

    PJ, I think all human beings being the “children of God” is not merely metaphorical (Acts 17:29), though I understand there is a distinction between believing and unbelieving in the Scriptures. I would rather distinguish between the estranged child from one who is no longer estranged. In terms of God the Father’s loving heart toward all, this is not mere metaphor–if He loves all as a Father, it means all are His children. For me, The Parable of the Prodigal Son says it all. It seems to me any Scriptural language to the contrary about the wicked and unbelieving is an acknowledgment of the very real estrangement that occurs through the activity of the enemy and the influence of sin. It is an acknowledgment that the Fatherly love of God is not being returned. God defines us as His children through His love, expressed without any partiality upon sinner and saint alike. It is only when we define ourselves through our sin as His enemies, that the Scripture acknowledges this using the same kind of terminology. My only concern is that we not see the distinction here in God, but only in us.

  69. John Shores Avatar
    John Shores

    dinoship: “fear is also based on the ego”

    If you have ever watched Henry V (Kenneth Brannaugh), recall the scene at Agincourt where the camera is on the faces of the English as they are watching the coming onslaught of the French. You can hear the horse’s hoofbeats but all you see is the sheer terror on the faces of the English soldiers. That’s the kind of fear that I mean. A dissection and conclusion that this is born of ego is irrelevant to the soldier standing there.

    However, “acknowledging that we don’t understand” when going against the “accepted understanding” of Spirit bearing Saints, Fathers and Apostles, as preserved in the living tradition of the Orthodox Church can be a reactive confrontation rather than an honest realisation.

    The “accepted understanding of Spirit bearing Saints” is largely a matter of opinion. One could as easily say the “accepted understanding of” (pagan priests, buddhist monks, tribal medicine men).

    By way of example…

    We say that: ‘Trusting solely on reasoning, not asking for what God might think would have saved Adam from falling.’

    There was no Adam. There never was a time when there were just two homo sapiens who were perfect and fell from grace. It is a literal, physical impossibility. Which is why most reasonable Christians (and all within Judaism) look at the story as an allegory.

    But even as allegory it cannot possibly be true since humans are now as they have always been. It is simply a myth that tries to explain why we are the way we are, just as the myth of the Firefox was constructed to try to explain the Aurora Borealis.

    That being said, one can certainly understand why an agnostic would have cause to question the “understanding of Spirit bearing Saints.” If god is incapable of revealing the truth about that which can be measured, how can one assume that what is said about the immeasurable is accurate? (Never follow into battle a commander who has proven that he has no idea how to use a map and compass.)

  70. PJ Avatar
    PJ

    John,

    “There was no Adam. There never was a time when there were just two homo sapiens who were perfect and fell from grace. It is a literal, physical impossibility. Which is why most reasonable Christians (and all within Judaism) look at the story as an allegory.”

    I guess this makes me unreasonable.

    Karen,

    I get where you’re coming from. Indeed, every human is a “child of God” inasmuch as they bear the image and likeness of God in their heart. However, the Lord Jesus Christ is the only true son of God. Thus His title, “Son of God.” Therefore, adoption in the Spirit brings us to a whole new level, to use a vulgar expression. Our sonship or daughtership is made complete only when we are in Christ through the Spirit.

  71. dinoship Avatar
    dinoship

    John,
    I would be naive to think I can convince you of God, even if I could -which I cannot- I would be infinitely less respectful.
    As for us Orthodox believers “as seeing him who is invisible” as visible (Hebrews 11, 27), we pray for the salvation of all.

    Honest “pagan priests, buddhist monks, tribal medicine men” will be the first to admit that they do not have the ‘fulness’ of faith.

    The most humble followers (Spirit bearing Saints) of the most humble Christ, to the death and to the Cross (!), martyred, yet without any diminishment of their love for those who tortured them, paradoxically claimed they had the fulness of the faith, that fulness that all other religions hoped for. Was that an inexplicable glitch of pride in their otherwise extreme humility? We have met personally people like that (not just here in Greece) and although (as Gregory Palamas says) “any word/argument can be met with its opposite word/argument”,
    “the witness of a Saint’s life and death cannot”

  72. dinoship Avatar
    dinoship

    PJ,
    “John,

    “There was no Adam. There never was a time when there were just two homo sapiens who were perfect and fell from grace. It is a literal, physical impossibility. Which is why most reasonable Christians (and all within Judaism) look at the story as an allegory.”

    I guess this makes me unreasonable.”

    it makes many of the people that ‘reasonable agnostics’ consider the ‘greatest minds to ever walk this planet’ unreasonable too,

    I won’t make any lists of famous or not so famous names here…

  73. drewster2000 Avatar
    drewster2000

    PJ, Karen,

    I totally agree with Karen. I think the hitch for PJ is that once we admit that everyone is a child of God, then someone might figure out a way in which we all “sneak” into Heaven regardless of our beliefs.

    That’s not what Karen and I are saying at all. It is important to acknowledge that children can leave home and never return, but it is equally important for the remaining family to not disown them, therefore finding a way to write them “out of the will”, so to speak.

    While it’s not our job to open Heaven’s gates wide because we can’t understand a God who would do otherwise, it’s also not our job to slam them shut. In fact, what are we doing trying to control those gates at all?

    I believe our job is to say that everyone is a child of God – and then stop there. Whether or not a particular person gets to sit down and dine at our table has to be taken on a case-by-case basis and with the Lord’s guidance. We don’t get to take the easy way out by using a broad brush stroke to paint them all as being in or out.

  74. PJ Avatar
    PJ

    Drewster,

    I’m certainly not worried about people “sneaking” into heaven. I readily acknowledge all humans are sons and daughters of God inasmuch as we bear His image and likeness.

    However, that sonship and daughtership is fulfilled and completed by union with Christ, who is the Son of God in a totally different way. Through our adoption in the Spirit, our relationship to the Father is radically changed, for we are literally grafted into Christ: we become the Body of the Head.

    St. Paul says it perfectly, as usual: “The heir, as long as he is a child, is no different from a slave, though he is the owner of everything, but he is under guardians and managers until the date set by his father. In the same way we also, when we were children, were enslaved to the elementary principles of the world. But when the fullness of time had come, God sent forth his Son, born of woman, born under the law, to redeem those who were under the law, so that we might receive adoption as sons. And because you are sons, God has sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, crying, “Abba! Father!” So you are no longer a slave, but a son, and if a son, then an heir through God” (Galatians 4:1-7).

    We only reach the maturity of sonship and daughtership in Christ, for Christ alone is truly, really the Son of God.

    As for who is “in Christ,” God alone knows, though some are easier to spot than others. I know that sometimes I certainly don’t seem like a son of God!

  75. Geri Avatar
    Geri

    John Shores:
    “One of the side-effects of losing my faith was a profound and deeply humbling new awareness of this universe. I used to think in terms of everything “passing away” and so the reality around me had far less significance than the hope of the next life. Take away eternity and this time and place comes into focus.”
    When I came into Orthodoxy, so much of what seemed so puzzling before about Creation, the New Creation, the work of the Cross and God’s love came into a beautiful new focus. I cannot recommend too highly the “Rainbow Series” by Fr. Thomas Hopko (in print or online: http://oca.org/orthodoxy/the-orthodox-faith). Fr. Hopko is Dean Emeritus of St. Vladimir’s seminary and this series is a succinct presentation of everything being discussed here!
    On the topic of everything “passing away,” Hopko writes: “It is sometimes argued, however, that this world will be totally destroyed and that God will create everything new ‘out of nothing’ by the act of a second creation. . . .Because the Bible never speaks about a ‘second creation’ and because it continually and consistently witnesses that God loves the world which He has made and does everything that He can to save it, the Orthodox Tradition never interprets such scriptural texts [IIPeter 3:10] as teaching the actual annihilation of creation by God. . .” He says that “When the Kingdom of God fills all creation, all things will be made new. This world will again be that paradise for which it was originally created. This is the Orthodox doctrine of the final fate of man and his universe.” (p. 134 of Volume I Doctrine)
    So, we Christians are called to somewhat the same conclusion that John S. has made—that “this time and place comes into focus.” Our role is to be more and more like God– loving His creation as He loves it—all of His people (Christians, non-Christians; all of His creatures; all of the rocks, stars, etc.).
    Throughout the day Orthodox lift up this prayer: O Heavenly King, O Comforter, The Spirit of Truth Who Art Everywhere and Fillest all things; Treasury of Good Things and Giver of Life; Come and abide in us; Cleanse us from every stain and save our souls, O Good One.” Praying this—how could anyone not be changed from complacent—to loving all of God’s creation? Every leaf of every tree is more beautiful. I cannot easily kill a fly.

    New Vocabulary word: Orthodox are “panentheists!”

  76. John Shores Avatar
    John Shores

    PJ and dinoship: You believe that there was an actual Adam and Eve? If so, surprise is no longer adequate and I am forced to resort to astonishment.

    Clement and Tertullian both spoke of the Phoenix as if it was real as well. And they were a couple of pretty smart guys. I find it interesting that Judaism has never held the Garden of Eden/Fall of Man story to be a literal story and yet many Christians do. Physical proof aside, if the people who wrote it did so as epic poetry rather than an historical document, anyone who takes it as other than epic poetry is mistaken (just as anyone who thinks that the idea of hell is based in Judaism is also mistaken).

    This is, in fact, the crux of why I left Christianity. If there was no Adam then all Christian doctrine falls to the ground. Everything about Christianity is founded on the Fall of Man story. Take that story away, and what do you have?

    it makes many of the people that ‘reasonable agnostics’ consider the ‘greatest minds to ever walk this planet’ unreasonable too.

    Having a keen intellect does not make someone universally right. One of my favorite Tony Campolo quotes is, “There is nothing quite so entertaining as watching two highly intelligent people debate a stupid concept.” And yet highly intelligent people do this rather too frequently.

    To be honest, one has to be exceedingly intelligent to come up with and to support such a story. The vast volumes of literature with every conceivable nuance and mental hurtle out there speaks of people with ginormous intellects. (Give me simple Hobbit sense any day.)

    In the recent debate between Dawkins and the Archbishop of Canterbury, I saw a great deal of mutual respect between the men. The AofC is an extremely intelligent man. He simply starts with far different assumptions.

    Which brings us back to a point that I keep making – if there is a god and he is a personal god, all of this would be moot if he simply revealed himself to people in ways that they understand and cannot explain away. Then there would be no need to try to sway someone to faith or to say “Behold, here is the Christ,” or “There He is” because each one will know him already.

    Yet this is precisely what has been happening since the beginning. It is so bad that perfectly good people (with incredible intellects) divide from one another over just about any concept you can imagine – even within Orthodoxy (Starting with Peter and Paul, btw). From an objective standpoint, one could make the argument that Eris is the one true goddess…

  77. John Shores Avatar
    John Shores

    Karen:

    if He loves all as a Father, it means all are His children.

    This is my starting point as well, which is why I have such difficulty with all this hiding and revelation business.

    No one knows the Son except the Father; nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and anyone to whom the Son wills to reveal Him.

    This does not sound very much like a father to me, if we are all his children and if it really is god’s desire that “all should come to repentance.”

  78. Geri Avatar
    Geri

    John Shores:
    “One of the side-effects of losing my faith was a profound and deeply humbling new awareness of this universe. I used to think in terms of everything “passing away” and so the reality around me had far less significance than the hope of the next life. Take away eternity and this time and place comes into focus.”
    When I came into Orthodoxy, so much of what seemed so puzzling before about Creation, the New Creation, the work of the Cross and God’s love came into a beautiful new focus. I cannot recommend too highly the “Rainbow Series” by Fr. Thomas Hopko (in print or online: http://oca.org/orthodoxy/the-orthodox-faith). Fr. Hopko is Dean Emeritus of St. Vladimir’s seminary and this series is a succinct presentation of everything being discussed here!
    On the topic of everything “passing away,” Hopko writes: “It is sometimes argued, however, that this world will be totally destroyed and that God will create everything new ‘out of nothing’ by the act of a second creation. . . .Because the Bible never speaks about a ‘second creation’ and because it continually and consistently witnesses that God loves the world which He has made and does everything that He can to save it, the Orthodox Tradition never interprets such scriptural texts [IIPeter 3:10] as teaching the actual annihilation of creation by God. . .” He says that “When the Kingdom of God fills all creation, all things will be made new. This world will again be that paradise for which it was originally created. This is the Orthodox doctrine of the final fate of man and his universe.” (p. 134 of Volume I Doctrine)
    So, we Christians are called to somewhat the same conclusion that John S. has made—that “this time and place comes into focus.” Our role is to be more and more like God– loving His creation as He loves it—all of His people (Christians, non-Christians; all of His creatures; all of the rocks, stars, etc.).
    Throughout the day Orthodox lift up this prayer: O Heavenly King, O Comforter, The Spirit of Truth Who Art Everywhere and Fillest all things; Treasury of Good Things and Giver of Life; Come and abide in us; Cleanse us from every stain and save our souls, O Good One.” Praying this—how could anyone not be changed from complacent—to loving all of God’s creation?

  79. Devin Avatar
    Devin

    I stumbled upon this on another Ortho site I frequent. As he points out, this may indeed contain some theological issues, but I think there’s truth to be found in it:

    “A story from an ancient Patericon

    (I won’t try to argue that this story is true, or free from theological difficulties. But it resonates with me and motivates me to continued, joyful repentance.)

    With the Sign of the Cross, the old monk Abba Joseph trapped in his cell a dark and miserable demon who had come to tempt him.

    “Release me, Father, and let me go,” pleaded the demon, “I will not come to tempt you again.”

    “I will gladly do that, but on one condition,” replied the monk. “You must sing for me the song that you sang before God’s Throne on high, before your fall.”

    The demon responded, “You know I cannot do that; it will cause me cruel torture and suffering. And besides, Father, no human ear can hear its ineffable sweetness and live.”

    “Then you will have to remain here in my cell,” said the monk, “and bear with me the full struggle of repentance.”

    “Let me go, do not force me to suffer,” pleaded the demon.

    “Ah, but then you must sing to me the song you sang on high before your fall with Satan.”

    So the dark and miserable demon, seeing that there was no way out, began to sing, haltingly, barely audible at first, groping for words long forgotten. As he sang, the darkness which penetrated and surrounded him began slowly to dissipate. The song grew ever louder and increasingly stronger, and soon the demon was caught up in its sweetness, his voice fully lifted up in worship and praise. Boldly he sang of the power and the honour and the glory of the Triune God on High, Creator of the Universe, Master of Heaven and Earth, of all things visible and invisible. As the song sung on high before all ages resounded in the fullness of its might, a wondrous and glorious light penetrated the venerable Abba’s humble cell, and the walls which had enclosed it were no more. Ineffable love and joy surged into the very depths of the being of the radiant and glorious angel, as he ever so gently stooped down and covered with his wings the lifeless body of the old hermit who had liberated him from the abyss of hell.”

  80. PJ Avatar
    PJ

    “One of the side-effects of losing my faith was a profound and deeply humbling new awareness of this universe. I used to think in terms of everything “passing away” and so the reality around me had far less significance than the hope of the next life. Take away eternity and this time and place comes into focus.””

    That sounds more Platonic than Christian. Christianity proclaims not the passing a way of the universe, but the purification, redemption, and perfection of the universe (new heavens and new earth). If any group has a morbid view, it is those materialists which suggest the heat death of the cosmos. At best, the universe is eternally cyclical, which still strikes me as more nihilistic than the Christian dogma of redemption.

    I didn’t realize that Protestants actually proposed a second creation ex nihilo. Those I know take “passing away” to refer to purification and redemption rather than destruction/recreation. But I suppose there always has been a Platonic temptation in Christianity…

  81. dinoship Avatar
    dinoship

    John S,
    ” if there is a god and he is a personal god, all of this would be moot if he simply revealed himself to people in ways that they understand and cannot explain away.”
    Well, I thought that the earlier comment detailing StSilouan’s experience is just that” Is it not?
    He revealed Himself in a way that cannot be explained away and the fruits of which are there for the tasting.
    I am sure there are many here who have similar, if not of such magnitude, experiences but would not disclose things of such depth, yet, use what common reasoning arguments they can to prove the , well, “un-proveable” (to others) through the vehicle of language I mean…

  82. drewster2000 Avatar
    drewster2000

    PJ,

    I hear what you’re saying. I agree with the distinction. It’s there. But it’s not helpful in this situation. When someone asks for the extension of friendship, it doesn’t have to mean the right arm of fellowship as well.

  83. Devin Avatar
    Devin

    Sorry, my comment above with the story of the abba and the demon seems a bit out of place now that the conversation has moved away from hell, redemption and the love of God. That was the conversation I was trying to contribute to. Wish there was an ‘edit’ function to our comments.

  84. Michael Bauman Avatar
    Michael Bauman

    Encounters with the living God happen all the time. Now, they may not happen to a particular person in a manner that the person wants, but they do happen regularly, they are just not, as dionoship says, always subjects for open coversation as they are usually quite intimate.

    St. Paul used his overwhelming encounter all the time in his missonary work as do a number of other Christians throughout history.

    Here are two: http://www.st-seraphim.com/motovil.htm

    http://silouanthompson.net/2009/12/with-my-own-eyes/

  85. drewster2000 Avatar
    drewster2000

    Devin,

    I for one really appreciate you posting that story. It seems to be one of the Desert Father stories I’ve never heard before. It was indeed beautiful and inspiring. So thank you.

  86. Connie Avatar
    Connie

    Devin, I’m so glad you did post that story! I found it incredibly moving, and for me it does indeed contain truth. Thank you so much! I’d like to know where you found it.

  87. John Shores Avatar
    John Shores

    Geri: Thanks for your comments. Once again I feel a pang of regret that I was not raised Orthodox.

    PJ:

    I didn’t realize that Protestants actually proposed a second creation ex nihilo.

    Yeah. It was best communicated by Keith Green in his song “I can’t wait to get to heaven”, the introduction to which concludes with “I know that Jesus Christ has been preparing a home for me and for some of you, for two thousand years. And if the world took six days and that home two thousand years, hey man, this is like living in a garbage can compared to what’s going on up there.” This is an extremely common thought and leads people into a kind of weird despair when life is hard – half wishing that they could get to “heaven” and half guilty for wishing they could get there faster. Escapism is very common in Protestant groups.

    dinoship:

    I am sure there are many here who have similar, if not of such magnitude, experiences…

    A virgin can attain to a belief that sex is wonderful but cannot know it the way that one who is not a virgin does. There may be a great many people who have had “experiences with god” but what is that to me? To hear about those experiences is like a virgin reading a Harlequin novel. (sorry for the crude comparison but it seems to me the most apt way of expressing how I view the matter).

  88. Devin Avatar
    Devin

    This is the site I came across it on:

    http://silouanthompson.net/2011/09/sing-the-song-you-sang-on-high/

    It’s a blog I really enjoy as it’s a good mix of humor and Orthodox thought. As to the original source, I unfortunately don’t know. You could try asking there.

  89. Michael Bauman Avatar
    Michael Bauman

    John, a virgin can get married and experience the joys of congugal union. Similarly, in the Baptismal service the one being batized expresses their desire to unite themselves with Christ.

    It takes the act of union before one can experience the joys of that union.

    Benjamin Franklin said, “Experience is the best teacher, but a fool will learn by no other.”

    We always rely on the testimony of others to determine the truth of a thing, even in our secular courts.

    What is it to you? An indication that there is something there, espeically when the testimony of so many others is amazingly consistent over many centuries.

  90. dinoship Avatar
    dinoship

    John,
    it is an apt comparison and I know what you mean concerning experiencing God, all I am trying to communicate here (as I have suffered greatly with that same ‘demand’ in the past) is the wise discerning spiritual Fathers’ advise on the matter, which have saved me and others a great deal of grief while stuck in a similar impasse….

  91. Shane Avatar
    Shane

    John Shores said “Which brings us back to a point that I keep making – if there is a god and he is a personal god, all of this would be moot if he simply revealed himself to people in ways that they understand and cannot explain away.”

    John, again I would highly recommend the book “Christ the Eternal Tao” as it addresses this age-old question of yours and shows how Orthodoxy is the culmination of all Truth, regardless of wherever it might be found – the pagens, the shamens, the old world religions, (and yes even the atheists!) all had/have slivers of truth.

    Lao Tzu recognized that the Tao cannot be named, cannot be grasped, cannot be described, cannot be contained, and yet it was the Source of all and present everywhere. The Tao was meek and humble and gentle and yet all-powerful. The Tao was the giver of life, but where was it to be found, how could the undescribable be described? How could the unseen be seen?

    Yet the unthinkable happened, Christ the Eternal Tao revealed himself to Creation – God became Man so that man might become god.

  92. Geri Avatar
    Geri

    How do we begin to “see” and experience God who is everywhere present? He says He can be seen in the poor, the hungry…the beauty of His creation. But how?

    From Fr. Artemy Vladimirov, All Saints:
    “When we come across people who are young, or not young, and whose hearts, one guesses, are completely earthly, there are no words, no manuals, no gestures, no proofs, no syllogisms that will make them change their point of view. It is only the witness of another world that can send an impulse to a person’s heart, that can make him attentive and able to hear you. It is a spiritual event in his life.” http://www.roadtoemmaus.net/back_issue_articles/RTE_03/My_Work_with_English_Speaking_Converts_Part_I.pdf
    A glimpse of another world begins to open our hearts to the possibility of that which is beyond our earthly vision. Perhaps it is as simple as the difference between prose and poetry. I can describe one reality in more than one way. The poetic “way” lifts my inner vision to a new reality that I am otherwise unable to glimpse. Is poetry less “real” than prose?
    Adam and Eve describe, at the very least poetically, a vision of what the most powerful creatures ever created could humbly become through self-forgetting love of God and His Creation. Not willing to be re-united with Love we become, instead, filled with self-centered ugliness and spread that death-dealing scent over everything, including ourselves.
    Orthodox services are filled with poetry. For example, the Tree of Life is the life-bestowing Cross of Christ. For Nativity, we sing:
    Prepare, O Bethlehem, for Eden has been opened to all!
    Adorn yourself, O Ephratha, for the tree of life blossoms forth from the Virgin in the cave!
    Her womb is a spiritual paradise planted with the Divine Fruit:
    If we eat of it, we shall live forever and not die like Adam.
    Christ comes to restore the image which He made in the beginning!

  93. PJ Avatar
    PJ

    John,

    The thing is, we DO maintain that God has “revealed Himself to people in ways that they understand.” The problem is that you do not accept these revelations (from Scripture to the lives and works of the saints) as reliable or legitimate.

    For the sake of discussion, do you concede that God may indeed have revealed Himself, and that the problem is not in His silence but in your hearing? Theoretically, I mean. Could this *possibly* be the case?

  94. Karen Avatar
    Karen

    John, the verse about knowing the Father only through the Son in no way speaks of exclusion. Rather it is telling us the only way we can come into true experiential communion with God, and that is through the Son Who became a Man for our sakes. We are not excluded from communion with God because God doesn’t actively love us all–but rather because He is “wholly Other” than us and beyond our ability to perceive apart from His taking the initiative to become human. Jesus reveals the Father to anyone who is willing to know Him, because God indeed “is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.”

    I do not interpret this to mean that someone who never hears the gospel or receives an adequate witness to the truth of Jesus Christ cannot still respond to God, through the Son working “incognito” via the Holy Spirit speaking to their conscience, and thus still ultimately be saved by God’s mercy (this seems to me to be one implication of Jesus’ teaching in Matthew 12:30-32). But they will still only know God and come into communion with Him through the Son (in this case, only fully after their death) because Jesus, the God-Man is THE connecting point between God and Man.

  95. dinoship Avatar
    dinoship

    Michael and Shane,
    thank you for your putting in words what I would also like to have said on the matter and wholly agree with .
    St Silouan struggled with the need to see God more than most people in history.
    His struggle was infinitely exacerbated after he saw Him for the first time in his late 20’s and then “lost” Him, (or God “hid”) for over 15 years…
    From ‘earth’ to ‘hell’ is some “drop”, similar, to a degree, to the “drop” from “heaven” to ‘earth’; but Silouan then “dropped” from heaven to hell…
    This was, however, the most edifying period in his life, as it is in all of our lives at a much smaller degree.

  96. Karen Avatar
    Karen

    I would like to clarify my comment above: the verse about knowing the Father only through the Son in no way speaks about exclusion of some people over others–but only of the exclusivity of the Way to God.

    Also my last sentence should have ended ” . . . connecting point between God and man.”

  97. John Shores Avatar
    John Shores

    Shane and PJ: That the only response I get is for people to refer me to a book or to someone else’s life simply underscores my dilemma. You want me to encounter a “personal” being that can only be encountered through reading and observation of other people. This is not a definition of “personal” with which I am familiar. If I am a person and god is a person and god is clever enough to make and manipulate matter then what is so hard about him meeting me face to face?

    Anything other than a real encounter is unacceptable if we are talking about a personal relationship. I do not trust my own imagination or the imagination of others. It is far to easy to manipulate people into believing stuff. How else can you account for so many belief systems? I want no part any systems. If there is a person out there, I want the person. I don’t want anyone to tell me what the person is like. I want to know the person for myself. Nothing less will do.

  98. drewster2000 Avatar
    drewster2000

    Whatever faults John S has in his logic and so forth, he brings up a very valid point. We need God with skin on. This is why He sent His Son into the world instead of just the Law. It might be said that He started with, “You should really read this Book I wrote….” but of course in His infinite wisdom He was well aware that this would not suffice for us.

    Since we as Christians are also Christ’s body, we too are asked to put ourselves out there in the flesh. It’s wonderful that many of us can find God in books, but this is a gift that leaves the reader responsible to turn around and live that life in front of others who cannot or will not.

    Those who have responded to John here in this forum with their lives have shared Christ with him. People dying of hunger and thirst need food and water first and foremost, not things to read or ideas to contemplate. As much as we can pour our lives out for those like John, to that extent can we imitate the One who gave all for us.

    Books and ideas are in no way to be discounted, but we must first find out what is needed before we try to fill that need. John S needs God with skin on.

  99. PJ Avatar
    PJ

    John,

    But that’s just it: If Scripture is the Word of God, it is not merely a “book.” It is not simply a record of things past, but the very voice of God. It is a living text, so to speak. Some of my most profound encounters with the Divine have occurred while meditating upon a particularly captivating line of Scripture.

    I understand that you are hungry for what some might call a “miraculous” experience. I can only say that whenever I go looking for the mystical, I find myself grasping thin air. God cannot be summoned like a genie.

    I know you have spent many years agonizingly searching for God. You are honest, no doubt. Yet you have set your own rules: “I want to see God this way, not that way.” But the testimony of countless saints declares the soundness of the very “rules” you cannot adhere to. The first rule is humility, the mortification of your own judgment. The great spiritual athletes of the Church have shown the path, and it is constant prayer, ceaseless meditation on Scripture, and self-forgetting love. Even then, God may choose to remain silent.

    God is a person — or rather three persons — but not as you or I are persons. He is not Joe Smith. You cannot call Him up and arrange a meeting. You must wait on Him. Mother Theresa spent most of her life waiting on Him — without Him ever showing up.

    Probably you’ve heard all this before. I think at this point, approaching 200 posts (!!!), we have covered all the bases — twice. But it bears repeating that we cannot rely on our own, isolated reason. We must look to the “great cloud of witnesses.” You have lived but a handful of decades. Ultimately, what wisdom do you really have? What wisdom, as an individual, do I have? We must turn to the holy company of saints and angels and follow the trail they have blazed. Alone we are damned; together we are saved.

    I hope I have been of some help, however meager. I am an ignorant and sinful man. My prayers, weak though they are, will be of more help than my words. God bless.

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