And They Disappeared – Extreme Humility

Sometime in the year 421 or 530, an utterly obscure woman from Egypt fell asleep in the desert of the Holy Land. Her burial place was intentionally unmarked and remains unknown. However, every year in the Orthodox Church, she is remembered by the name of Mary of Egypt and her life (written by St. Sophronios in the 7th century) is read in the Church. One of the Sundays of Great Lent is dedicated to her memory. She is an example of the many thousands of monastics whose lives and spiritual feats remain unknown to the world in which we live. That we know nothing about them makes no difference. And they, of all people, were comfortable with that anonymity.

In the wonderful novel, Laurus, Russian author,  Eugene Vodolazkin creates the character of a Holy Fool. Modeled on a variety of persons scattered across Orthodox history, his fool, Laurus, dies in obscurity, falsely accused of a crime. Though vindicated after his death, he left instructions that his body was to be dragged into the forest and forgotten. He doesn’t even request a burial.

In the Sunday Liturgy, Orthodox Churches that follow Slavic practice, sing, “Remember us, O Lord, when you come into Your Kingdom.” There is within that prayer the subtle suggestion that such memory is the only one that matters. I can think of nothing that negates the claims of a secular world more than such a sentiment.

Faced with the threats of Roman power, Christ said to Pilate: “My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, My servants would fight, so that I should not be delivered to the Jews; but now My kingdom is not from here.” (John 18:36) This, however, is not Christ saying that this world does not matter. The hidden message within His response to Pilate is that His kingdom, though not of this world, is even now entering into this world. It is in light of this kingdom alone that all history will be judged. What Rome is able to do does not matter because the kingdom of God cannot be altered or erased by anything in this world.

That understanding formed the substance of the faith of the martyrs. There is nothing that the powers of this world can do against the kingdom of God. Nothing.

It has become popular in many circles to give place to certain secular claims. We are told be many well-meaning Christians that political action is important. Christians, in sufficient numbers can accomplish great good: write good laws, address injustice, make the world a better place. I know the arguments. I’ve rehearsed them and pondered them for years.

And then there is St. Mary of Egypt. There are the many, many thousands (millions?) of saints unnamed through the ages. Virtually all of them are nowhere to be found on the Church’s calendar other than the feast of All Saints. There is an unwritten belief, rehearsed from time to time, that at any given moment of history, God sustains the universe in existence through the prayers of but three individuals (I’ve seen various small numbers used in this saying). I believe it to be so. I know that my feeble prayers are not numbered among the three. However, I also believe that all prayer, on some level, participates in the power credited to those three.

We do not see nor do we know or remember the good things God has prepared for those who love Him. We all live in obscurity whether we know it or not. To be known of God and remembered by Him is the only true existence.

Remember us, O Lord, when You come into Your kingdom!

About Fr. Stephen Freeman

Fr. Stephen is a retired Archpriest of the Orthodox Church in America. He is also author of Everywhere Present: Christianity in a One-Storey Universe, and Face to Face: Knowing God Beyond Our Shame, as well as the Glory to God podcast series on Ancient Faith Radio.



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68 responses to “And They Disappeared – Extreme Humility”

  1. Patricia Avatar
    Patricia

    After I read Laurus I told my kids that I when I die … “just drag my body out to the lower 40 and let the crows do with me what they will.”
    They didn’t think that was very funny and thought me quite foolish for even suggesting such a thing.
    I love the story of St Mary of Egypt. To think that wild lions dug her a grave. How beautiful. Looking forward to tonight’s service.

  2. Glennis Moriarty Avatar
    Glennis Moriarty

    Thank you Father. That answers the question…What should I do!? as we face the problems of our age. The answer ( I think we knew it already) is pray. To really pray, with love and conviction, can be the hardest thing of all. It is so much easier to become a raging activist. Sadly.

  3. Esmée Noelle Covey Avatar
    Esmée Noelle Covey

    The radical repentance demonstrated by Venerable Mary of Egypt (and other Orthodox saints) fascinates me. I don’t think it is something a person decides to do, but something that happens because of an inner grace they receive as a gift of God that makes it impossible for them to NOT leave everything and follow Christ. I admit to feeling jealous of this absolute kind of conversion, often wishing I could experience something like this myself. But alas… However, it is a comforting thought that whatever contribution we may offer to Christ with our paltry prayers, it may get added to those of the Prayer Giants who help sustain the universe.

  4. Michelle Avatar
    Michelle

    Beautiful. Thank you.

    Michelle

  5. Lisa K Avatar
    Lisa K

    Yes, and I think I know who they are………. They are the Priest, the Deacon and the Chanter….. The same ones praying the Divine Liturgy.

  6. Colin Reeve Avatar
    Colin Reeve

    This really helped me today. Thank you x

  7. Travis Wade ZINN Avatar

    Thank you for your insightful article – I very much enjoyed Eugene Vodolazkin’s The Aviator and have his Laurus queued up in Audible now – I appreciate you drawing attend to the lost, forgotten and unknown Saints, for whom I dedicated my own book. One day I’ll get back over to visit you in Oak Ridge, I enjoyed our discussion of Gregory Palamas and the excellent church lunch!

  8. Fr. Stephen Avatar

    Travis,
    Many thanks. I have moved, btw, and am now living in Greenville, SC, and am attached as a retired priest to St. John of the Ladder Orthodox Church. A bit further, but you’d always be welcome!

  9. Fr. Stephen Avatar

    Esmée,
    You’re right regarding grace. Nothing is possible without it. Incidentally, I believe that our secular mindset blinds us to the work of grace. There’s really no split between nature and grace the way it came to be imagined. Everything is filled with grace and nothing would nor could exist apart from it. We breathe grace. We eat grace. In prayer we align ourselves with grace and discover what is possible.

    I particularly love the parts of Mary of Egypt’s story when she told of her struggles with lust and the desire for alcohol. She would lie down and pray, begging God to take it away…sometimes for as long as three days! And then, the ecstasy would come.

  10. Matthew Avatar
    Matthew

    My mother-in-law died about 4 weeks ago. She was a lifelong Protestant who believed in God.

    Both at the funeral and in the weeks which have proceeded since, we have tried as a family to remember Ingrid; the woman she was and the good, true and beautiful things she said and did.

    Is this misplaced according to Orthodox thinking?

  11. Fr. Stephen Avatar

    Matthew,
    Not misplaced at all! The Orthodox prayer for the departed is always, “May their memory be eternal!” We are specifically asking God to remember them. To be remembered by God is to truly exist. So, we also rightly pray, “Lord, remember me today when you come into your Kingdom.”

    Such a memorial makes all of our merely human efforts at memory (which are perfectly natural and ok) to be revealed as passing shadows. We remember them…but who will remember when we’re gone? These saints could “disappear” because they utterly trusted God to remember them.

    I don’t of any Church that commemorates the departed as much as the Orthodox. We have a service on the 3rd day after death, on the 9th, on the 40th, and then annually. At least those are the services found in our books. It’s also quite common to have a service (pannikhida) offered every day for the first 40 days.

    One of the Churches at the monastery of Valaam was endowed by a royal to offer prayers for all the Russian soldiers who perished in WWI. There are monks who (in rotation) continually offer prayers, reciting the millions of names, day and night, perpetually. Interesting.

  12. Ook Avatar
    Ook

    Father, you wrote (in 2010), in the post “Just the Shell”, that “the person is body and soul. For this very reason the Orthodox faith is careful in its teaching regarding the honor that is due to the body even in death.”
    Somehow I remembered that. Soon after, Laurus came out, I read it, was (and am) still confused about the ending, with his “instructions that his body was to be dragged into the forest and forgotten”. And this was a Holy Fool, in my mind, a saint. This seems to contradict what I imagine would be the honor that is due to the body even in death.

  13. Fr. Stephen Avatar

    Ook,
    Yes, it is a voluntary “dishonoring.” It’s not a model of Christian burial – it’s a yet more extreme example of asceticism. If a family were, of their own will, to treat the body in such a manner, it would be wrong. We are right to properly honor the body.

    There’s an interesting book that I highly recommend called A Christian Ending, by Fr. Deacon Mark and Elizabeth Barna. It has been much used by a number of Orthodox parishes (particularly among converts) to recover older, Orthodox customs. I’ve been to many funerals now where the casket was a simple pine box, sometimes painted with Orthodox prayers. But at these funerals, there’s often no embalming, etc. It’s quite interesting. The modern funeral business stepped in as the older customs disappeared, particularly in America. A number of our parishes over here now have burial ministries – volunteers who assist with the preparation of the body, etc.

    I suspect my own funeral will be of that nature.

  14. Dee of St Herman Avatar
    Dee of St Herman

    Ook and Father,
    If I remember correctly, the beautiful ending in Laurus, even though seeming extreme in the dragging of his body, the village people followed his body as it was dragged to the forest. Again, if I remember correctly, the village people were lamenting his passing. Even in his extreme humility, in the end after his death, in tears the village people honored him.

  15. Fr. Stephen Avatar

    Dee,
    Absolutely! Orthodox faithful love and care for the bodies of the faithful. I wonder if such a request (as in Laurus) would have been respected in reality –

  16. Janine Avatar
    Janine

    Father, thank you for this beautiful reflection.

    You write:
    Faced with the threats of Roman power, Christ said to Pilate: “My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, My servants would fight, so that I should not be delivered to the Jews; but now My kingdom is not from here.” (John 18:36) This, however, is not Christ saying that this world does not matter. The hidden message within His response to Pilate is that His kingdom, though not of this world, is even now entering into this world. It is in light of this kingdom alone that all history will be judged. What Rome is able to do does not matter because the kingdom of God cannot be altered or erased by anything in this world.

    This reminds me of Jesus’ saying (perhaps often disputed as to its meaning),  “And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffers violence, and the violent take it by force,” Matthew 11:12. I seem to recall a commentary that reflects “violence” as Christ’s kingdom “breaking into” the world in this sense, as through the martyrs and the Church; and belivers “breaking in” to it.

    But what I wanted to ask you about was St Mary of Egypt. It was pointed out to me that in her story she took communion but once in her life (I think once). Could you please reflect on this? The same would be true, it seems, possibly of others also who lived a reclusive or hermetic life?

  17. Mallory Avatar
    Mallory

    Thank you, Fr. Stephen. I get as much out of the comments and your replies as your posts, always grateful.

    I’ve been wondering if there are any stories like these about mothers? I just finished reading two memoirs about New Agers converting to Orthodox Christianity, which I thought would be interesting seeing as I came from the New Age world before I found Christ after having my child.

    Frustratingly, both of these people seemed to have all the time and resources in the world to visit monasteries, go on retreats, spend extraordinary amounts of time in solitary confusion, while somehow not having to work or look after anyone (not even a dog!). Not only did these kinds of lives (to me) make for not very interesting storytelling, I could not relate. Not even a little. I am a single mom to a toddler–a surprise to me, my husband abandoned us when she was 1 years old. I am trying to make it all work, cheerfully, for her sake, and every single day is an enormous struggle mentally, physically, psychically. People keep telling me it will get better–it does not. It gets harder. I also help care for my mom who is sick with a major illness (and she helps me enormously as well, for which I thank God and am eternally grateful). I pray every day. I read scripture every day. Is there something you would suggest, someone whose life I could find solace/inspiration in? Any words of wisdom? I am struggling, and “doing all the things” yet grace eludes me.

    Also, what would be your interpretation of this passage?
    “If any man come to Me and hate not his father and mother, and wife and children, and brethren and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be My disciple.”

    Apologies this is so long, I had no time to edit. I am grateful for you daily!

  18. Byron Avatar
    Byron

    One of our beloved parish members fell asleep last weekend. His pannikhida was on Wednesday and the service and burial the next day (yesterday). The singing of “memory eternal” while his simple casket was brought into the Church during his service impacted me more than I expected. I realized that I had forgotten that prayer(!) as we had not had a funeral in so long.

  19. Janine Avatar
    Janine

    PS Wanted to mention that for the past years or so I have been singing in the Choir of a Greek Orthodox cathedral. The hymn that includes, “Remember me when You come into Your kingdom” is so beautiful to sing also

  20. Matthew Avatar
    Matthew

    Thanks so much Fr. Stephen. I understand now much better.

    I heard a Protestant pastor once say that eventually there will be no one left to remember us after we die. That puts the eternal God memory into its proper place.

    It is the premier memory. The gold standard.

  21. Mike Etheridge Avatar
    Mike Etheridge

    Thank you for the article Fr. Freeman. I’m not familiar with the idea you mentioned regarding God sustaining the universe in existence through the prayers of but three individuals. Where could I find more about this?

  22. Fr. Stephen Avatar

    Mallory,
    I’ve sent a request to a good friend to see what she might suggest as a possible read. On the interpretation of “hate father and mother”: First, it’s obviously a hyperbole – there is a commandment that we should honor our parents. So, Christ is pointing something close to the heart of all of us – and is saying, “the Kingdom of God is greater even than mother and father – than the most intimate parts of your family.” Indeed, the Kingdom is greater even than our own life.

    In truth, everything flows from the Kingdom. We do not realize that grace permeates everything. God is the “Lord and giver of life.” Everything that lives (and the rocks, etc., as well) only lives because of the grace of God.

    I know that raising a child can be truly difficult – and moreso as a single parent. But there is grace that is in you, in your child, in your mother, in everything around you. But your situation is difficult and hard. I suspect that “when things get easier” will be something that comes as a surprise – as a hindsight.

    You are much in my prayers. If (when) I get a response and recommendation on some reading, I’ll send it along.

  23. Katie Fischer Avatar
    Katie Fischer

    Mallory,

    I am not living with the same kind of burdens you are bearing, but as a mom of six (most, or all, with special needs) I understand what you mean by it just feels harder and harder.

    The life of St Olga (Arrsamquq) has been incredibly comforting to me. She raised her children and lived faithfully in her community.

    I will keep you in my prayers.

  24. Fr. Stephen Avatar

    Mallory,
    My friend came through! Here’s her list and thoughts:

    Here are my top recommendations:
    Single Mother Saints: https://parkendbooks.com/shop/the-grace-of-being-there-single-mother-saints-in-our-lives/
    Darkness is as Light: https://parkendbooks.com/shop/darkness-is-as-light/
    Applicable prayers and encouragement: https://store.ancientfaith.com/the-ascetic-lives-of-mothers-a-prayer-book-for-orthodox-moms-2nd-edition/?searchid=1629044

    Mama, I See You (Coptic): https://a.co/d/54js2J1

    St Maria of Paris was a single mother also, her life would be a good one to read.

    Mother to us all: https://store.ancientfaith.com/akathist-to-the-mother-of-god-the-inexhaustible-cup/?searchid=0

    Matushka Olga of Alaska: https://store.ancientfaith.com/akathist-to-matushka-olga-michael/?searchid=0

    The Grace of Being There: Single Mother Saints in Our Lives https://parkendbooks.com/shop/the-grace-of-being-there-single-mother-saints-in-our-lives/

    Please let the person know that there are collective groups for Orthodox single moms and or working moms on FB that would bring her more practical support.

    Mallory,
    I’ll look for some of these groups.

  25. Fr. Stephen Avatar

    Mike,
    I think I first ran across it in some writings associated with St. Sophrony of Jerusalem. But, I’d have to do some searching. It’s a sort of common Orthodox notion.

  26. Ook Avatar
    Ook

    Thank you Father and Dee,
    I think I “get” the ending of Laurus more clearly now.

    I see the book “A Christian Ending” is sold out but they’re promising a fourth printing.
    When my wife passed in the middle of summer, we had no embalming, but used dry ice to keep her cool during the three days before the funeral.

  27. Esmée Noelle Covey Avatar
    Esmée Noelle Covey

    Thank you for your reply, Fr. Stephen.

    I wanted to add to the funeral part of this conversation. I am in a large OCA parish that has a longstanding working relationship with a local mortuary that assists us in our traditional Orthodox burial practices. They allow a team of specially-trained male or female parishioners to come and wash the body of the deceased in their facility. The body is not embalmed. The body is then placed into a simple wooden coffin either made by a carpenter in the parish or purchased from our local Orthodox monastery, made with a lid that removes completely for an open casket funeral. The body is usually brought to the church the evening before the funeral and a panikhida service is done. Then parishioners who have signed up will come to the church to read the Psalter over the body for one hour time slots throughout the night until the funeral the next morning. After the funeral, everyone accompanies the body to the cemetery where another small memorial service is performed. It is all a very profoundly moving experience and it is one of the aspects of our Orthodox Faith and practice that I love most.

  28. hélène d. Avatar
    hélène d.

    Esmée, yes, I echo your beautiful testimony, having recently attended the funeral of a member of an Orthodox monastery.
    The deceased’s (adult) sons sang in the choir, and at the end of the service, they carried their father’s coffin, open of course, to the cemetery for another intense prayer service. At the end, we all sang the Easter troparion, “Christ is Risen!”
    We then all shared a loving and fraternal feast…
    There are so many important details in the Orthodox funeral ritual ! I would just say that I discovered the grace of joy, of the other life that comes and is at work here. It’s very edifying and strengthening !

  29. Hélène d. Avatar
    Hélène d.

    Father Stephen, in relation to St. Mary of Egypt, not so extreme in practice, but certainly in the intensity of prayer and asceticism, I think of St. Silouan of Athos, who experienced great graces, with a vision of the Lord Himself. He said : “You gave Your grace to Your saints, and they loved You to the end. They despised earthly goods, for the sweetness of Your love does not allow them to love the earth and the beauty of this world, which are nothing before Your grace.” Several times in his writings, he says that even the beauty of creation, which he knows in its magnitude, becomes insignificant before the Grace and the closeness of the Lord.
    This caused suffering when this Grace diminished or was extinguished. I have often been astonished by these radical “differences” of perception that seem to leave all of creation indifferent, for the Kingdom of God is not a parallel world; it is our world. Man and God are part of the same world, as you often point out, the one created by God Himself and the one in which He chose to incarnate; the earthly world and the heavenly world being one.
    Can we say that these great ascetics, men and women, already have such a participation in the Kingdom that they are increasingly detached from creation ? St. Zosimas saw St. Mary of Egypt make the sign of the Cross and cross the Jordan walking on water…
    How inspired we are by such Faith ! It is truly Faith, the strength and great tenderness of Faith…

  30. Fr. Stephen Avatar

    Hélène,
    I do not take St. Silouan to be disparaging of the grace found in nature. I take him to be saying that there are things to be seen/experienced compared to which nature would seem dull. I had a dream once, in my late teen years, in which I saw a transfigured creation. The only way I can think of describing it is to say that I could palpably perceive the Life that was in all things. It was so “alive” that in comparison to it I could only see myself as dead. It was “too wonderful” to bear for long.

    I do not know (and have never known) what to make of my dream (it’s source or meaning). But that experience is as present to me now at age 71 as it was the morning I woke from it. I have seen beauty and wonder and the clear providence of God many, many times through the years – sometimes almost perceiving an echo of that dream. But what I saw there would make you want to trade everything for it.

    Creation itself groans…and so do we. We hunger for yet more.

  31. hélène d. Avatar
    hélène d.

    Father Stephen, I believe these are nuances in the translations that prevent me from being more accurate or precise, because I don’t think St. Silouan was denigrating the grace of nature either… However, even in French, the words or expressions are strong in the sense that “to despise earthly goods” has a very negative aspect…
    And I thank you for your testimony ! How well I feel what you are saying ! because it echoes a personal experience, as a young adult, which was not a dream, but a gift received one day when I was in the heart of wilderness.
    It was indescribable in its intensity of life and beauty… and I felt integrated into this transfigured life !
    It is indelible, and yet memory does not restore the reality of the experience…
    Yes, we groan with creation !

  32. Matthew Avatar
    Matthew

    I had a similar dream Fr. Stephen. Wonderful.

  33. Matthew Avatar
    Matthew

    Would it be more accurate to say that the good and true and beautiful which we see and experience in creation is actually filled with God´s grace?

    I still struggle with the process of evolution and the horrible things it does in the natural realm. I have nearly an impossible time seeing God´s grace and love in those moments of violence and destruction.

  34. Fr. Stephen Avatar

    Matthew,
    I think that we should acknowledge that it’s easier to see God’s grace at work in the things we find to be good, true, and beautiful. That is ultimately a statement about ourselves.

    If God’s grace had nothing to do with all those moments of violence and horrible things they would be unredeemable. And that’s quite problematic. Mostly, I would suggest not pushing yourself over this. Merely pray, “O Lord, show me Your grace.” And be at peace with it.

    A secondary thought: it’s important not to confuse providence (grace) with causation. The death of Christ on the Cross was cruel, unjust, an effort of evil, etc. But you and I doubtless have no trouble seeing God’s grace there. Look for the Crucified Christ in creation (tooth and claw) and it will come easier.

  35. Matthew Avatar
    Matthew

    Thanks so much Fr. Stephen. You said:

    “A secondary thought: it’s important not to confuse providence (grace) with causation. The death of Christ on the Cross was cruel, unjust, an effort of evil, etc. But you and I doubtless have no trouble seeing God’s grace there. Look for the Crucified Christ in creation (tooth and claw) and it will come easier.”

    This is extremely helpful … but …

    When I consider the millions of years that separated the dinosaurs from humans, if we accept an historical Adam and Eve, this means that animalistic death and destruction existed well before the fall. If we accept the Divine creation account with Adam and Eve as allegorical, then since the time of eartly creation there has been death and destruction. All this death and destruction troubles me.

    My issue is that while I can accept what you say about looking for the Crucified Christ even in the bloody tooth and claw of the natural realm, it does not sit well with me that a loving God would create the earth with so much violence and horror. I think I often push these questions into my “consider later” file, but that doesn´t mean I just forget them.

    An Orthodox Christian and scientist wrote about a theory he calls alterism which posits (I think) that God created a real garden which was true and good and beautiful. He claims the fall that happened soon after the creation of this garden triggered a new creative process with the Big Bang and evolution as the stars of this creative show. As such, if his theory holds any water at all, evolution and the violence and horror of the natural realm was never intended by a good and loving God. They too are a result of the fall. This settles my spirit a lot, though I must admit it is only a theory.

    “Oh Lord, show me Your grace.” “Oh Lord, show us Your grace.”

  36. Fr. Stephen Avatar

    Matthew,
    You said: “this means that animalistic death and destruction existed well before the fall.”

    A linear cause-and-effect model doesn’t fit the facts as we know them. However, the Scriptures do not describe such a linear model. In Romans 8, St. Paul says: “For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope;” It is clear that it is God that subjects creation to futility (death, destruction) – ultimately for our sake. Paradise is not this world (this world is not “paradise that has fallen”). St. Basil uses the phrase describing Adam as “falling from paradise into this world,” in his eucharistic prayer.

    The more mystical/theological writers, such as St. Maximus, do not describe our creation and fall in simple historical/linear terms. St. Maximus, for example, describes our fall as almost instantaneous (though it is stretched out as narrative in Genesis).

    I do not try to solve all of this in a straight-line historical narrative. I do not find it helpful.

    Rather, when I do think about it, I think that, however we came to be, God always saw that a free creation (capable of love and freedom – a creation capable of divinization) was ultimately a creation at the heart of which was the Cross. He foresaw all and created us anyway, knowing that death and destruction would ensue. What He also foresaw was how all of that would be redeemed – reconciled – and through the Cross made whole and united with Him.

    That is, more or less, how I tend to think when I think about it.

  37. Mark Spurlock Avatar
    Mark Spurlock

    “[I]t does not sit well with me that a loving God would create the earth with so much violence and horror.”

    Whereas other questions and answers are “in the consider later” pile (and answering them perhaps unnecessary), this is the fundamental question of human existence (the problem of evil), Matthew. I do not believe it can be ultimately answered through knowledge and reason. If so, minds with a capacity greater than mine to reason and thousands of years to consider it would have reached a convincing conclusion already.

    All proofs require one or more premises. If one starts with the premise of God, then by definition God is God and you are you. It follows that substituting your reasoning, value judgments, etc. for God’s when the two appear to conflict is faulty reasoning. Whatever you believe can be only an approximation of the truth, whereas an omniscient god knows perfect truth.

    As a comparison, any manufactured tool for measurement may be more or less accurate, but it has no bearing on the true value of what it is trying to measure. You may have a good conscience or a bad conscience, but neither is a cause of good or evil except within your own mind. That is, if I kill someone, does your opinion of my act alter whether it is good or evil? And if your judgment cannot affect the moral value of my particular violence, how much less can it evaluate the moral basis of the universe?

    We can premise that there is no moral basis. And in that case we can conclude that no just, omnipotent god exists. If, however, we premise right and wrong, then we do not also have to believe in our own capacity to know (absolutely) right from wrong. Accepting the limits of our own understanding allows space for a belief in God.

    A premise of good and evil is (it seems to me) undeniably faith based and is, therefore, vulnerable to any critique from pure reason. Nevertheless, I reject the contrary premises (God is not good or there is no such thing as good and evil) because the first seems to me to be nonsensical if we grant the second, and the second contradicts our fundamental human intuitive yearning. Many would say this yearning is wish fulfillment, but, at least in the case of Christianity, that does not seem so.

    Why do followers of Christ wish for and find fulfillment in something that is premised on the denial of self? Why would such an irrational message ever have caught on? (I am aware of psychology based answers to these questions, but from personal experience and observations I do not think they are credible.)

  38. Fr. Stephen Avatar

    Matthew, Mark,
    I have been reading St. Isaac of Syria at bedtime (and during my wakings in the night) over the past number of days. He unequivocally sees Divine Love in creation. Here’s a passage (a bit antique in its translation):

    What that invisible Being is like, who is without any beginning in his nature, unique in himself, who is by nature beyond the knowledge, intellect, and feel of created beings, who is beyond time and space, being the Creator of these, who at the beginning of time was learnt about through hints and was made known as if it were through his mark by means of the establishing of the fullness of creation, who made his voice heard in connection with his handiwork and so the Being of his lordship was made known, the fountainhead of innumerable natures—this Being is hidden, for as he dwelt in his Being for aeons without number or limit or beginning, it pleased his graciousness and he made a beginning of time, bringing the worlds and created beings into existence. Let us consider then, how rich in its wealth is the ocean of his creative act, and how many created things belong to God, and how in his compassion he carries everything, acting providentially as he guides creation, and how with a love that cannot be measured he arrived at the establishment of the world and the beginning of creation; and how compassionate God is, and how patient; and how he loves creation, and how he carries it, gently enduring its importunity, the various sins and wickednesses, the terrible blasphemies of demons and evil men.5 Taken from Alfeyev, Hilarion. The Spiritual World Of Isaac The Syrian (Cistercian Studies Series Book 175) (p. 48).

    It strikes me as interesting that St. Isaac sees God’s patience and love in His sustaining of creation (even the demons). That, of course, makes us ask, “Why is He so patient? What’s He up to?” I think the answer (revealed in Christ) is that He is uniting all things to Himself. As St. Paul says: “…having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself,that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth—in Him.”(Ephesians 1:9–10 )

    Since I cannot see the end, I can only trust that it is a wonder that justifies all that has been involved. And that trust is based on seeing/knowing the Risen Christ. None of this works in a philosophical manner if it is considered or reasoned apart from the Crucified Christ.

    Again, we pray, “O God, show me your grace.”

  39. Nathan Fischer Avatar
    Nathan Fischer

    Matthew, if you haven’t read it, Fr. John Behr’s book “The Mystery of Christ: Life in Death” is an excellent read, and it did a lot to help me with how I understood the Creation, as well as the perspective Fr. Stephen is suggesting: “God always saw that a free creation (capable of love and freedom – a creation capable of divinization) was ultimately a creation at the heart of which was the Cross.”

    It’s an excellent book for reasons other than just that one, but it really did help me on this point, too. Not that I have all my questions answered, but that some of the questions and concerns I had just stopped being questions and concerns.

  40. Mark Spurlock Avatar
    Mark Spurlock

    Father Stephen,

    Thank you for that beautiful passage.

  41. Mallory Avatar
    Mallory

    Thank you very much, Father Stephen. And please extend the thanks also to your friend who recommended the books.

    In a different reply, you write: “It is clear that it is God that subjects creation to futility (death, destruction) – ultimately for our sake. Paradise is not this world (this world is not “paradise that has fallen”). St. Basil uses the phrase describing Adam as “falling from paradise into this world,” in his eucharistic prayer.”

    I think about this subject all the time. I wonder if you think everyone in this world has fallen from paradise? Or do you think there are perhaps other realms/planes/worlds to fall here from as well? So we’re all trying to get along from different worlds? Some of this line of thought reminds me of teaching of A Course in Miracles, which I know you caution against, and in fact I have stopped reading it, but I suppose it’s possible there are truths within it, just like the basic premise of doing good and trying not to cause increase in suffering in Buddhism was helpful for me in the past.

    I’ve always, since I was little, and would look in the mirror and think “Who is this? who am I? and who are these people (family) around me?” had a sense that I must have committed a sin in the “real world” (paradise perhaps? the Kingdom?) and have been sent down here, to this world, in order to correct that mistake. Is this flawed thinking? Again, thank you as ever for your wisdom, grace, and patience.

  42. Mallory Avatar
    Mallory

    Thank you, Katie. I can’t imagine how challenging that must be. You are in my prayers as well.

  43. Matthew Avatar
    Matthew

    Thanks so much Fr. Stephen, Mark and Nathan.

    Fr. Stephen said:

    “God always saw that a free creation (capable of love and freedom – a creation capable of divinization) was ultimately a creation at the heart of which was the Cross.”

    When you say “free creation”, do you mean to include all creatures … human and animal?

    Fr. Stephen also said:

    “Since I cannot see the end, I can only trust that it is a wonder that justifies all that has been involved. And that trust is based on seeing/knowing the Risen Christ. None of this works in a philosophical manner if it is considered or reasoned apart from the Crucified Christ.”

    So … because I know both the Risen Christ and the Crucified Christ, I should trust that all ends well even if the path to that final end/new beginning has been filled with violence, horror and death? (I´m speaking specifically of the natural realm here … T-Rex´s eating smaller dinos for lunch. Lions ripping apart poor antelopes on the veld, etc.)

    Nathan … I will look for the book today. Thanks so much for the suggestion.

    Mark … I think your words have helped me the most regarding this topic today. I think it may have even been Fr. Stephen who said that it´s the west that is wrapped up in theodicy theories and explanations. The Orthodox simply leave the question(s) alone and look for the Crucified Christ. I may have this wrong, but I believe I read this somewhere on the blog.

    Thanks guys …. certainly more food for thought.

  44. Fr. Stephen Avatar

    Mallory,
    Orthodox teaching does not include parallel universes, other worlds, or many paradises, etc. I think the sense of “who am I” is a common childhood experience. If you had any trauma in childhood, the likelihood of that is greatly increased. Lots of adults have those experiences as well.

    The world we live in is “real” – and it matters. But it is dominated by the process of death. We do not exist somewhere before we were born here – although God has specifically known us and thought of us from before all eternity (we’re not accidents). Christ Himself has “fixed” our mistakes – in His death on the Cross. Everything that is wrong, broken, etc., is something He took into Himself and into His death. His resurrection is the beginning (the New Testament will sometimes even refer to it as the “down payment” or “earnest”) of the healing and making new of all things.

  45. Fr. Stephen Avatar

    Matthew,
    All of creation has a freedom of sorts – the animals, etc., are not puppets. But this world is a place where “death reigned” (Ro 5:14). But it is but a shadow of the freedom that is to come…for us as well.

  46. Matthew Avatar
    Matthew

    “But this world is a place where “death reigned” (Ro 5:14).”

    Despite all your thoughts (Fr. Stephen, Mark and Nathan) this truth still makes me want to scream … WHY?!?

  47. Matthew Avatar
    Matthew

    I guess I need to increase the number of files in my file cabinet. 🙂

  48. Fr. Stephen Avatar

    Matthew,
    Why?
    Perhaps this is a choice between a free creation in which love is possible or a creation without freedom in which no dinosaurs eat each other.

    Look at the story of the angels (created before us). One-third of them used their freedom to rebel and became allies of nothingness – a drive to non-being. They said “no” to the love of God. But that’s true freedom.

    The story we have in the Garden (regardless of any literal issues) is a story in which freedom is present from the beginning. There is a commandment (don’t eat) and a choice (but you’re free to eat). I think we can presume that this is something of an “ur-story” (as the Germans would say), a story that is a paradigm of our relationship with God.

    It’s interesting that in the first chapter of Genesis, human beings are the last things made in creation. It’s not: first us, then the rest.

    The story of our creation is in a sort of parenthesis – called “paradise.” Think of that parenthesis as a parenthesis in time as well. In the mind of God, that story can even take place completely outside of time. In that case, Adam and Eve would be the primordial people – but parenthetical to creation. Our literal becoming in this creation is a coming-into-existence in a world that is the “consequences” of a parenthetical choice. If you will, it is how it would always play out. True freedom, true love, requires (apparently) our rebellious choice – as well as God’s loving response.

    This world (dinosaur-eating-dinosaurs included) is what the love of God redeeming all creation from the consequences of its rejection of His love looks like.

    The love of God (which includes taking the whole of all suffering into Himself) chooses to create us anyway. All I can say to that is that it is apparently worth it – to Him, to us, to all creation. That is the greatness of the love of God on the Cross. All suffering – all 13+ billion years of exploding planets, etc. worth. All of it He takes into Himself and is even now gathering all things together into one – in His love.

    That’s pretty much how I see the “big picture.” I’m willing to be convinced of another way to phrase this or to tweak this – but that’s pretty much what I see. I clearly don’t have enough information on the matter to argue about whether it is worth it. I simply accept that it is.

    “Eye has not seen, nor ear heard, Nor have entered into the heart of man The things which God has prepared for those who love Him.”

    Can’t wait…

  49. Holly Avatar
    Holly

    Matthew,
    I found the writings of Bishop Basil Rodzianko, of blessed memory, when I was pondering similar questions. He wrote a book called “Modern Cosmology and Ancient Theology, the Theory of the Big Bang and the Faith of the Holy Fathers”.

    Only the introduction is translated into English:
    https://rodzianko.org/english/works/book/excerpt1.shtml

    The whole book is available on the website in Russian, but just the introduction is very good.

    And thank you, Fr. Freeman, for sharing the work of St. Isaac of Syria, it has been exactly what I needed.

  50. Nathan Fischer Avatar
    Nathan Fischer

    Holly, that introduction seems to mirror a paper by Alexander Khramov that someone shared with me recently. In it, he argues that the fall of man occurs outside of space-time, and that the Big Bang is the result of the fall itself and the manner in which this world is subject to futility.

    I’m not sure it does any harm to view things that way, I guess. But I also see problems with it. For example, I don’t really know what it means for human beings to be created by God’s hand in a paradise, fall, cause the Big Bang, and then for humans to once again appear billions of years later? Khramov spoke of this entire process (big bang, universe developing, evolution, etc) as the “putting on the garments of skin.” I really struggle with that. I genuinely cannot put into words why (I’ve tried, and mostly end up running around in circles) but something about this just strikes me as not-quite-right.

    I also wonder if it places too much emphasis on trying to solve this problem by focusing on Genesis and its relationship to science, versus looking to the Cross. St. Maximus the Confessor says things like, “When Christ was on the cross, He was creating the world.” This answers more for me than re-situating Paradise to a point before the Big Bang.

    Perhaps in the end we’ll find that what Bishop Basil and Alexander Khramov write is true. And “Yes! Amen!” to so much of what Bishop Basil wrote. But for me, trying to answer some of these questions by moving the timeline to prior to the Big Bang opens up more questions. I’m, personally, content to just let these things be and not try to answer them in such a linear, causational fashion.

    Thank you for sharing, though. Until that intro, I’d only ran into this thought in Khramov’s paper. I wasn’t aware there were Bishops saying something similar.

  51. Fr. Stephen Avatar

    Nathan,
    I had not seen Bishop Rodzhianko’s article, nor Khramov’s paper. Both, however, though speculative, would easily fall within the realm of Orthodox thought. The drive to a strictly linear/historical account (reconciling modern historical science and the Scriptures) is actually pretty much a modern problem – one we’re borrowing from elsewhere – perhaps our own cultural issues.

    Origen clearly had a notion of a paradise that was not this world and a fall “into” this world – which – works better still if you add the time wrinkle of Bp Rodhzhianko and Khramov – if the goal is to have a smooth way of making the pieces fit. St. Basil’s language of falling out of paradise into this world clearly represented something of a hat-tip to Origen. Despite all the modern protests from some against Origen (and I generally avoid quoting him), he is best described as the “Augustine of the East,” such was his influence on the major figures in the East who came after him. They don’t follow him precisely, but his influence is clearly there.

    Many modern people, particularly without a wide reading, are unaware of the latitude within Orthodoxy concerning certain questions. Generally, there’s a latitude in some things in that they were not seen as particularly dogmatic concerns. None of the Great Councils, for example, depend on a particular reading of Genesis.

    Your comment, “I wasn’t aware there were Bishops saying something similar,” sounded to me like an expectation that this might be beyond the pale. It’s not, precisely because it’s an area that has seen a significant range of speculartion over the centuries. There is nothing within Orthodoxy that should reject science, per se. If, for example, someone wanted to teach a young earth theory (7,000 years old) as the “Orthodox” view, I would think of them as pushing a serious error – despite the fact that there are any number of documents that use that sort of dating system.

    I place the creation story within a parenthesis (much like a Mandorla’s function in an icon). As such, it has theological importance and authority without requiring it to be squared with a history book or a biology text. It would be useless were that not the case.

  52. Mallory Avatar
    Mallory

    Thank you, Father Stephen! And to everyone involved in the comments, fascinating discussion.

    Father, you wrote “although God has specifically known us and thought of us from before all eternity (we’re not accidents).” Do you think then that God knows each of our lives as if they’re already past? In other words, He already knows our choices and challenges and hardships? Or are the hardships already “set up” so to speak and then it is our free will on how to respond/react?

    Also, is the promise that after this life we will feel the effect of, as you wrote, Christ having “fixed” our mistakes? And does this apply to all of us, even if we have sinned, even the worst of humanity etc?

    Thank you for being patient with my seeking! Bless all of you.

  53. Nathan Fischer Avatar
    Nathan Fischer

    > Your comment, “I wasn’t aware there were Bishops saying something similar,” sounded to me like an expectation that this might be beyond the pale.

    Oh, I’m sorry, Father. I meant quite the opposite. A lone scholar writing his own thoughts is one thing (maybe good even, but still his own thing). But if Bishops are saying it, too, not that every Bishop is correct, but I do perk up and take note.

    Maybe this is just a “me” thing. I was raised with a young earth “literal” creationist reading of Genesis. I spent countless hours reading every book I could get my hands on to counter “old earth” perspectives, the Big Bang, evolution, etc. I thought my faith dependend upon these things. In many ways, Creationism was the very bedrock of my Christian faith for many years. Working my way “out” of those lines of thought was challenging and, in some cases, very painful.

    As a result, I largely resolved not to ask questions about the creation of the world or how things happened, per se. I enjoy the sciences and I let them be what they are. I love Scripture and I try to let the creation account and Genesis story be what it is.

    I have read the Fathers as much as I can on this topic. Mostly I took great comfort in how differently they talk sometimes about the creation and fall (depending upon the father). But I never really tried to situate what they said into our scientific understanding of how the universe came to be.

    I realize what Bishop Basil is doing is not what my old Creationist upbringing was doing. But as I was reading your reply, I realized that I think I just have to acknowledge that for now I can’t hear these things without hearing the echo from my past. At least I know that if it’s just my own struggle, I can be quiet about it and not bother others so much with it. Thank you for your reply, Father. It was helpful.

  54. Nathan Fischer Avatar
    Nathan Fischer

    To clarify, Father: I think when I read what you’ve also referenced in St. Basil, it never quite occurred to me that “the world” would refer to the entire universe. I’m not sure I had any mental image in my head at all of what he was saying, but it definitely wasn’t “fell > Big Bang.” I think I still read “world” as “earth” to a large extent. So what you wrote is not at all new to me. I just never really applied it as broadly as the Bishop and Khramov did (and I know that in Greek, world is cosmos! even so). Maybe I need to re-read the Fathers on this again sometime.

  55. Fr. Stephen Avatar

    Nathan,
    Thanks for sharing about your background and struggles. It’s fascinating how we get here from so many directions. There’s not really a great consensus of any sort on all of this – which is why even bishops can entertain a creative suggestion now and again. 🙂

  56. Fr. Stephen Avatar

    Mallory,
    I do believe that God knows the who of our lives (not that they are pre-determined). Foreknowledge is not predestining. I believe that Christ, in taking upon Himself the “sin of the world,” it includes even the worst of us. The real question isn’t will we be punished for what we’ve done? The question is, will we be willing to be loved by God and love Him in return. And that is something that I do not know the answer to. However, I hope that the answer is good for all. That is only a hope, not a faith or a conclusion.

  57. Dee of St Herman Avatar
    Dee of St Herman

    Nathan and Father,
    I’m hoping I’m adding a helpful comment here.

    In my training (physical chemistry) I was taught a practice of extrapolating the ‘macro’ world from the ‘nano’ or atomic world.

    While, to some extent, this might deserve a more detailed explanation, Father Stephen and other writers have noted that Christ calls to us ‘where we are’. In this practice, as I contemplated the larger implications of the Higgs Potential Energy Field theory, I witnessed the Eschaton and the Resurrection of Christ in these equations, for I perceived in them an icon of our reality. However, at the time, I was unfamiliar with Orthodox iconology, so I didn’t describe it to myself in that way.

    Having been (incorrectly) taught that history and time are linear, and the fact that the Higgs Field was generated eons ago, what I thought I saw, I took to be a complete mental fabrication. And I completely discarded the idea. I was not Christian at the time, and didn’t see a reason to believe in the stories about Christ. But I was bothered by what I thought I saw. And I didn’t want to be dismissive out of some bias against Christianity. So, after a while, I decided to investigate whether there was any such theology that could account for what I had seen. And that effort (actually, it was the breadcrumbs that Christ lured me with) was what brought me into Orthodoxy.

    I’m mentioning this because I understand Nathan’s reticence about such descriptions. I was extremely reticent myself at one point. And even now I don’t like to dwell on the science side of my conversion so much, because I see that was the way Christ lured me to Him. And now I prefer reading the Gospels because they convey the story of Christ in so much depth relative to equations. Nevertheless, I’m also grateful for what Christ has revealed in such equations (and experiments conducted) to me.

    If science has any relationship to the truth, then I believe it can be helpful in our lives in Christ, because He is the Truth. Otherwise, as speculation, I’m not sure how far it is helpful.

    On occasion, the Lord has shown me more, but I’m not inclined to express these visions (if they can be called that). I doubt the helpfulness of such expressions to others. The Lord provides for each of us what we need to strengthen us, to heal us, and bring us to Him.

    I love very much how St Maximos and St Isaac express our reality.

    And now I’m curious about what Fr Behr wrote!

  58. Fr. Stephen Avatar

    Dee,
    Thank you for this. Fr. Behr’s book, The Mystery of Christ, is extremely good. I is an easy recommendation.

  59. Matthew Avatar
    Matthew

    Hello Nathan.

    Alexander Khramov is the scholar I meant, but who I was unable to name when I wrote my comment above about his thoughts. Thanks for the information and for your thoughts. When I read what you write, I feel as though we have traveled similar paths. Peace to you.

  60. Matthew Avatar
    Matthew

    Thanks so much for the link, Holly. I love what Bishop Basil (Rodzianko) says about “Divine evolution” being the process by which God is saving the world. It is a very beautiful image.

  61. Matthew Avatar
    Matthew

    Fr. Stephen said:

    “Eye has not seen, nor ear heard, Nor have entered into the heart of man The things which God has prepared for those who love Him.”

    Can’t wait…

    Me either Fr. Stephen. Me either. Thanks so much.

  62. Janine Avatar
    Janine

    Hi Father et al,

    Further up I left a comment, at the end of which I asked about St. Mary of Egypt. Perhaps it was missed, or perhaps you don’t want to answer, Father. But I’m going to pester you again just in case it was merely overlooked. (Please let me know if you do not wish to comment.)

    When I learned the story of St. Mary of Egypt, it was pointed out to me that she only took Communion twice in her life (that we know of). But this week it has been perplexing me to think about the significance of that. I suppose we are to understand her communion with God throughout her period of isolation. But I will ask again if you could please comment on what we might call her “infrequent” partaking of the Eucharist

  63. Janine Avatar
    Janine

    PS I suppose for me the story of St. Mary of Egypt (and especially the infrequency of Communion in her withdrawal into the desert) reminds me most of St. Symeon the New Theologian. But I’m not sure that’s where I should be headed with that story…

  64. Janine Avatar
    Janine

    PPS Sorry for all of these posts, but it occurs to me perhaps with St Mary that focus should be that she needed that period of isolation for a reason. I find it hard to think of it in terms of excommunication and penitence. Perhaps she was simply being transformed (in theosis) as God led her to, the particular grace given to her.

  65. Fr. Stephen Avatar

    Janine,
    Sorry, I noted your question in my mind, but then it got away from me. So, I have returned.

    St. Mary of Egypt’s absence from communion (once before entering the desert and once at the end of her life) is highly unusual, and not in the least to be seen as salutary. It’s simply like her life as a hermitess – it’s unimaginable.

    Her life is given, largely, as a rebuke to the Elder Zossima. I am borrowing something written by a brother priest (Fr. John Cox). He said:

    The story of St. Mary of Egypt was written for monks. The rhetorical function of St. Mary’s outlandish sins is deliberately provocative, but I think that provocation often hides a deeper point of the story that, perhaps, age makes it easier to see: it is far easier for God to save Mary than it is to save Zosimas. Mary’s sins shock and scandalize the pious but all it takes for God to crack the hard shell of her willfulness is to refuse her entry to the church one afternoon. Zosimas is another matter entirely. In order to save him from his pride he has to send Mary into the desert 47 years ahead, make the 53 year old Zosimas leave the monastery of his youth for a new home where he is not known or appreciated, where will be obliged to wander 20 days into the desert annually, and in which desert he will come face to face with a lion. The point, it seems to me, is that the sins of the flesh, while certainly bad enough, are not nearly so bad as sins of the spirit; spiritual pride is far more dangerous and difficult to heal than lust. This is a point the desert fathers reiterate constantly, but never more memorably than in the story of St. Mary.

    It serves to stir us up to greater devotion – but is not the model of living without communion.

    I will add that there are other ways to “commune” – that cannot truly be described nor recommended. She clearly had that in her life.

  66. Janine Avatar
    Janine

    Thank you Father!! Very helpful to hear that perspective. So often we laypeople forget who has shared these stories and why.

    I was listening to an interview with a Roman Catholic exorcist. He told the interviewer something about hell, that spiritual suffering is much more painful than physical suffering. That seems to be related here to sins of the flesh and the spirit. Very grateful for your reply

  67. Hélène d. Avatar
    Hélène d.

    I heard Fr. Peter (of the Essex Monastery) say recently, speaking of St. Mary of Egypt, that she had such repentance that she had become an angel on earth, and that it was enough for her to take communion of the Body and Blood of the Lord just before dying.
    This is an unimaginable asceticism and her example is very edifying because she stands alongside all the great ascetics, known or unknown…

  68. Fr. Stephen Avatar

    Hélène,
    Yes. I think there are several ways (at least) to think about St. Mary’s life. Year after year, it still feeds my soul.

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