Worshipping a Weak and Foolish God

This is a reprint of an article that is deeply apropos of the present conversation on the blog. I offer it within that context.

I cannot begin to measure the amount of time I have spent over the years in conversations about the “problem of evil.” That problem, in short, is the impossibility of reconciling an all-powerful, all-knowing, all-good God with the presence of suffering, injustice, and evil in the world. Those conversations often involve listening to a deeply felt pain. “Why does God allow…?” runs the refrain. The impossibility in the conundrum suggests that something is wrong in the question – or that there is no God.

The answer is that there is no such God.

The French philosopher, Paul Ricoeur, once described three men as the “Masters of Suspicion”: Karl Marx, Friedrich Nietzsche, and Sigmund Freud. The term well describes their efforts to undermine the hidden motives of classical thought. Freud dismissed God as nothing more than a parental projection. Marx saw economic motives in religion, the “opiate of the people.” Nietzsche’s critique is too complex to explore in this setting. However, these men are but weathervanes in a cultural drive that has consistently sought to replace “God” with our own efforts. The serpent’s whispered suggestion, “You shall be like gods” echoes down through the centuries. My contention is that the Masters of Suspicion, and their many lesser figures, have all been arguing against a “straw God,” that is, a God who not only does not exist, but does not resemble the God Whom Christians properly worship. And, I should add, many Christians frequently forget this to be the case. We try to defend the God who is not there. We generally come up short and frustrated.

So, Whom do we worship?

St. Paul boldly wrote:

“For Jews request a sign, and Greeks seek after wisdom; but we preach Christ crucified, to the Jews a stumbling block and to the Greeks foolishness, but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.” (1 Cor. 1:22–25)

“And I, brethren, when I came to you, did not come with excellence of speech or of wisdom declaring to you the testimony of God. For I determined not to know anything among you except Jesus Christ and Him crucified.” (1 Cor. 2:1–2)

In recent times we have this wonderful declaration by Fr. Thomas Hopko, of blessed memory:

I believe we have only one thing to offer, and it is Christ as Christ really is. I think that’s what Orthodoxy really is. It’s a conviction about Christ as Christ really is. And that’s the Christ of the Holy Scriptures, the Christ of the sacraments, the Christ of the services of the Church, the Christ of the development of theological doctrine, it’s Christ as Christ is. And here Christianity, we have to remember always, is – all theology, the word of God – is for Orthodox Christians, stavrology [stavros=cross (Gk.)].  I like to say that theologia is stavrologia….The word of God is the word of the Cross. We witness to, preach, confess, make a defense of, Christ and Him crucified, as being the power of God and the wisdom of God….And that’s all we have to give and all we need.

In another place Hopko says:

The Cross for us is not God concealing Himself. God is revealed on the Cross, not concealed.

I have particularly drawn from Fr. Thomas’ words as a touchstone of Orthodoxy. Typical of his work – these are statements that are definitive in character. “The word of God is the word of the Cross.”

It remains, however, to think about what this means.

It would seem that, for many, the “God” whom they imagine is the God of the philosophers with the Crucified Christ as an interesting historical interlude. In the worst of such treatments, “God” is pictured as punishing His only Son for our sins. Christ becomes the victim of the Father.

However, we do not know God apart from Christ. It is Christ who has made Him known.

No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him. (John 1:18)

It is worth considering that even in the opening chapters of Genesis, the God in Whose image we are made is none other than the Crucified Christ. Thus, as the Fathers and the liturgies note, Adam is caused to sleep, and from his side Eve is fashioned. It is according to the image of Christ, who “sleeps” in death on the Cross, whose side is pierced. Blood and water flow from His side from which His bride, the Church, is fashioned. This is no accident, nor a mere coincidence of creative interpretation. This is how the Church reads the Scriptures.

There have been plenty of efforts across the Christian centuries to impose the philosopher’s God (or worse) on the Church. Christ says to the authorities:

You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me. (John 5:39)

We read the Scriptures through Christ that we might see Christ and, in Him, be transformed. The transformation that we seek is to be conformed to the image of His crucifixion.

I am crucified with Christ, nevertheless, I live; yet, not I, but Christ lives in me. And the life that I now live in the flesh, I live by the faith of the Son of God who loved me and gave Himself for me. (Gal. 2:20)

More than anything, Christ Crucified is a revelation to humanity that God is love. However, it teaches us that love is not coercive. The philosopher’s God is expected to selectively coerce, controlling evil and rewarding the good. The scandal of the Cross is that it reveals the weakness of God who, in love, suffers Himself and His creation to endure evil, “overcoming evil by doing good” (in the words of St. Paul). It is not the God that many imagine themselves to want. It is, however, God as He has made Himself known.

An afterthought: Perhaps the worst error of the Penal Substitutionary Atonement theory (“the Father punishes the Son in order to pay for our sins…”) is that it represents an attempt to reconcile the crucified God with the philosopher’s God. It rings hollow.

About Fr. Stephen Freeman

Fr. Stephen is a retired Archpriest of the Orthodox Church in America. He is also author of Everywhere Present: Christianity in a One-Storey Universe, and Face to Face: Knowing God Beyond Our Shame, as well as the Glory to God podcast series on Ancient Faith Radio.



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64 responses to “Worshipping a Weak and Foolish God”

  1. Helen Avatar
    Helen

    Thank you Father. The last statement…about trying to reconcile the crucified God with the philosopher’s God…that feels like what I experienced from the fundamentalist take on Othodoxy. I have to be perfect for the philosopher’s God. I can approach the crucified God with all my wounds. Thank you.

  2. Dee of St Herman Avatar
    Dee of St Herman

    Father,
    Like Helen, I see the final statement to be the crux of the matter, which you elaborate on so well above.

    Other important points that are relevant for my circumstances are those of endurance, and knowing when to or not to resist evil, but to endure evil, “overcoming evil by doing good”. This is indeed the cross of Christ.

  3. Dee of St Herman Avatar
    Dee of St Herman

    Father,
    In my locality, there was a person who would use the tragedy of their personal history as a bludgeon in conversations, and sometimes it came off as a sort of one-upmanship. A kind of “no one has suffered more than me,” therefore…(fill in the blank). It seemed as though the person was using these thoughts to justify what sometimes was rudeness or worse, their apparent preference for the philosopher’s God. In conversations with them, I would acknowledge the suffering they may have gone through. Still, I would also mention that their circumstances were not a means to manipulate or diminish others. Eventually, and in unfortunate circumstances that are not appropriate to mention, this person left the parish.

    In my own need to hang on to my faith, I try to keep reading the Bible, as Bonnie mentions, as one way to keep going in the faith. More often than not, I doubt the depth of my faith, as my morning prayers are frequently said quickly to get on with the day’s work, not allowing for the depth of communion that Christ might offer. Recently, I have been grieving over the hardness in my heart and my lack of faith. By coincidence and in the words of Orthodoxy, by Providence, I came across this in my daily reading:

    “By faith we understand that the world was created by the Word of God, so that what is seen was made out of things which do not appear.” (Hebrews 11:3 –with my emphasis on the word “Word”).

    My condition of not seeing God in myself also reminded me also of Christ’s words, “You do not know what Spirit you are of”. (Luke 9:54-56)

    Trust in God is indeed difficult in circumstances that seem to be directed toward evil. But remembering Christ and his endurance and faith reminds me that I’m not alone. As it is often said in our Orthodox Church, “Christ is in our midst”. This is an affirmation that I have been taught, and I witness to be true: in my darkest hours, my pain and tears are His.

  4. Cleo Bibas Avatar
    Cleo Bibas

    I could never understand how Christ’s death on the cross could take away any of my sins.
    If I committed the sin, then for me to learn not to commit that sin again, shouldn’t I be the one to pay for it in whatever way would teach me the lesson I would need to learn to understand from it?

  5. Dee of St Herman Avatar
    Dee of St Herman

    Cleo,
    I believe Father would have more to say on this, than what I might be able to say that is edifying. However, I note that in one Orthodox prayer before communion, we say “I am first” among sinners. At first this was a difficult saying for me because I would justify myself and say well “I never was a Nazi that put children in ovens”. Over time (and through a vision provided to me in a dream), I realized that the sin that I would attribute to others is in me. Like death, it is a condition of ours, while our human nature is good. We are in a profound, deeply connected relationship, not just individuals in the way we are taught in Western culture. We are created for communion with and through Christ and with each other.

  6. Nicole Avatar
    Nicole

    Father as an admirer of your ministry and a former Roman Catholic I am only concerned about the phrase “development of doctrine” which is what I learned as an RC was the justification for changes which I then learned Orthodoxy utterly rejects as the rationalization for western thought and heresy alien to the Holy Fathers and our Tradition. Is there a different way to understand the term? Thank you!

  7. Cleo Bibas Avatar
    Cleo Bibas

    Dee, thank you for your response. This resonates with me, as I believe we are all connected on a deep spiritual level. It brought up an emotional response so there is truth in what you say.

  8. Fr. Stephen Avatar

    Nicole,
    Interesting catch. I do not think Fr. Thomas was meaning “development of doctrine” in the manner that it has been used in RC circles (which actually took the phrase from Cardinal Henry Newman, I think). Rather, he is referencing the “development of expression” as the Church considered the teachings of the faith. For example, there are things that could be said in one century that, following refinement in language or terminology, would not be ok in a later century. To my knowledge, Fr. Tom never supported the notion that doctrine itself was somehow changing. I’m sure he’d have said something similar if asked for clarification.

  9. Fr. Stephen Avatar

    Cleo,
    The phrase “died for our sins” which is Apostolic (St. Paul, etc.) doesn’t really get a full explanation in the NT. What it does have are a number of images that allude to it. I do not think of my (our) sins as something that can be “paid” for (that image is not in the NT). Rather, “sin” is “death working in us.” (“The wages of sin is death,” St. Paul says). That death is the process of being drawn away from God who is the source of life and of all existence. I cannot give myself life. But, in the Incarnation, Christ comes among as “one of us.” He “becomes what we are that we might become what He is.” He unites Himself with us, even in our sin (2Cor. 5:21), that we might be united with Him in His righteousness – in which our sins are forgiven (healed, etc.).

  10. Cleo Bibas Avatar
    Cleo Bibas

    Thank you Father, your explanation resonates with me and I feel the truth of it.

  11. Dee of St Herman Avatar
    Dee of St Herman

    Please forgive me, Father, for making so many comments this morning. Given the situation I’ve been in lately, it seems to be pulling up a lot of memories.

    There was a person in my young childhood who abused me. This happened over years. By the time I was almost a teenager, I asked this person why they did these things to me. The answer was, “To make it impossible for you to love or be loved”.

    Over the decades, these words faded in memory only to reemerge in a PTSD triggered situation. Strange as this might sound, I asked the person I loved for nearly 40 years if these words were true. Hearing them, he responded with more words than simply saying they were not true. He understood well enough how one person wanted to undermine another’s well-being.

    Once (pre conversion to Christianity) in my anger, I crushed some beautiful flowers in my hands. Saying something similar to: “This is how I treat beauty”. It was as if I wanted to destroy the beauty in my own soul.

    The beauty of the image of God in us has been formed in us by God’s hands. Nothing in creation can destroy the image of God, nor His Love.

  12. Hélène d. Avatar
    Hélène d.

    Echoing the words of Fr. Thomas Hopko, (whose the two excerpts are very relevant),
    “I believe we have only one thing to offer, and it is Christ as Christ really is. I think that’s what Orthodoxy really is.”
    I think of the words of St. Sophrony: “What does ‘orthodoxy’ mean? Orthodoxy is an Intuition, how to meet Christ, the true Christ.”

  13. Fr. Stephen Avatar

    Dee,
    I can think of few things more evil than the intent to crush the ability to love. It is love that heals, love that makes communion possible. The deepest wound in abuse is not physical (as bad as that can be). Rather, it is the wounds that makes love difficult (or near impossible). I suspect that those who “survive” abuse are those who have preserved some place within them where love can still abide.

    Everyone has likely endured some manner of wounding to love – life has bumps within it. May God give us grace – heal these terrible wounds, giving us the relief that only love can convey!

    Thank you for sharing – may God preserve you and protect you.

  14. Dee of St Herman Avatar
    Dee of St Herman

    Dear Father thank you for your words and prayers.

  15. Hélène d. Avatar
    Hélène d.

    Dee, I’m sorry that my comment (which seems trivial) appears right after yours…. When I wrote, your comment wasn’t yet on the blog. There was a slight delay.
    Sharing such hurts with you, from personal experience, please be assured of my warm prayers.

  16. Matthew Avatar
    Matthew

    Would it be a fair and accurate statement to say that the New Testament speaks very little about the reasons why we suffer and that Holy Scripture overall does not teach that Christians should look for ways to abolish all suffering? It seems to me that a lot of religious and philosophical worldviews out there try to erase suffering and/or blame God (if there is a God) for all the suffering we face. Christianity seems to be very different in this regard.

  17. Fr. Stephen Avatar

    Matthew,
    I think that would be a fair and accurate statement. “Ways to abolish all suffering” is a modern fantasy. Most civilizations across time have wisely known that such a goal was beyond their reach. Modernity would be more reasonable if it simply sought to be “just” and “good.” Even those goals can be difficult both to define (much less to achieve). Mostly in the modern world, we live by slogans (no need to think and make difficult decions, etc.). Nobody wants to suffer, and, increasingly, we do not want others to suffer. But, having said that, it becomes a difficult conversation to actually discuss causes of suffering as well as means to relieving it.

    Christianity in the modern world is a mish-mash of conflicting notions (with various pieces of tradition thrown in). It makes it difficult to say anything about “Christianity” that is generally true.

  18. Dee of St Herman Avatar
    Dee of St Herman

    Hellen,
    What you described about the order of submissions happens frequently when we are on the blog frequently and responding. I took no offense at all.

    Thank you for your prayers! I’ve been under duress for various reasons and need all the help I can get!

    Warmly,
    Dee

  19. Helen Avatar
    Helen

    Dee,

    Your last comment (I believe meant for Helene) but I wanted to reply and let you know I am praying for you. I have read many of your comments over the years and have appreciated them. May this season for you be filled with God’s loving balm. Kyrie eleison.

  20. Matthew Avatar
    Matthew

    Dee said:

    “The beauty of the image of God in us has been formed in us by God’s hands. Nothing in creation can destroy the image of God, nor His Love.”

    Thanks so much for this Dee. I am so happy that after all you have been through you are still able to such write such beautiful words.

  21. Matthew Avatar
    Matthew

    Thanks so much Fr. Stephen.

  22. Shannon Avatar
    Shannon

    So if PSA is all wrong how does the church interpret Ephesians 5:2 and Isaiah 53:6? And others…

  23. Jenny Avatar
    Jenny

    Father,

    I have loved this article and the picture you share with it for many years now. It is comforting seeing Christ held in His Mother’s arms in the vulnerability of His death, just as she had cared for Him in the vulnerability of His childhood.

    Since Christ is not coercive, it makes giving Him anything good a delight. He is so patient about it. It’s astonishing to think that God is humble and meek in heart and that it is possible to truly give Him something that He values.

    Dee,

    “The beauty of the image of God in us has been formed in us by God’s hands. Nothing in creation can destroy the image of God, nor His Love.”

    What a wonderful truth to keep in mind. It also has comforted me in some of my worst moments. It makes me think of that verse that says our life is hidden with Christ in God. I’ve been keeping you in prayer.

  24. Fr. Stephen Avatar

    Shannon,
    There’s is nothing in Scripture the characterizes sacrifice as something made to pay or appease the wrath of God. It’s actually a pagan notion. Christ is truly a sacrifice – a complete offering that unites us to God and God to us. But it is not a payment or an appeasement. That teaching did not come about until around the year 1000. It is not found in Orthodox teaching.

    The problem is that protestant theology has so infiltrated our minds that we read sacrifice as something that it is not. I don’t know your background, but PSA is very strong in Reform teaching. An article of mine might be of some use: https://glory2godforallthings.com/2014/04/25/the-scope-of-passover-and-penal-substitution-theory/

    But, as for the Scriptures, it is a mistake to find the word “sacrifice” and suddenly think it’s describing penal substitution theory – when it is, in fact, describe offering. Here’s an early article of mine looking at how St. Gregory the Theologian treated the idea of payment (under the title of “ransom”). https://glory2godforallthings.com/2008/01/22/st-gregory-the-theologian-on-our-ransom-by-god/

    I can point towards some good scholarly material on atonement and sacrifice in the OT if you’re interested. The best source is one I’ll have to dig a little for (my books are still largely boxed up from my move).

    Orthodoxy sees the sacrifice of Christ best summed up as “God became man so that man might become God” (which echoes 2Cor.5:21 as well). Becoming what we are, He trampled down death by death, and being united to us and raised from the dead, He gives us life. But there is no appeasement of an angry God, not payment of a sin-debt that was owed. Such theories are very late in developing and are absent from the Eastern Church.

  25. Fr. Stephen Avatar

    Shannon,
    Your question is quite important – and it is surprising to some to learn that the Eastern Church does not hold to the PSA in its teaching. To my knowledge, there is no place to which we would point and say “this is THE atonement teaching.” But the most prominent place to look and listen is the texts of the services. Both the Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom and the Liturgy of St. Basil make mention of sacrifice, but no where treat it as something being offered as an appeasement to God or paying a debt, etc. It is an offering. And, as great as the Cross is, it should not be viewed as something apart from the entire Incarnation of Christ. The whole of His life and action heal the breach, restore our union with God, etc.

    A good Orthodox treatment on the atonement is Fr. Patrick Reardon’s Reclaiming the Atonement. https://store.ancientfaith.com/atonement-incarnate-word/

    I’m glad to answer more questions on the topic. Be well.

  26. Dana Ames Avatar
    Dana Ames

    Dee, did you get my email with links re Mat. Olga’s glorification this weekend??

    Dana

    (Please forgive the interruption, Father and everyone.)

  27. Matthew Avatar
    Matthew

    Incarnation/Birth – Life and Ministry – Crucifixion – Resurrection – Ascension

    Do these each play a distinct role in salvific history? Should they be viewed as a complete package? In separate parts? ???

    Coming from an evangelical Protestant background for nearly 30 years, I often viewed the cross one way, the crucifixion another way while paying almost no attention to the Incarnation/Birth, Life and Ministry (that was for the liberal Protestants) and Ascension.

    Somehow, though, I think these all speak to God´s salvific plan, but just how I am not certain. Help!

  28. Fr. Stephen Avatar

    Matthew,
    One of the legacies of medieval scholasticism (which we still have with us) is the drive to break things into parts and study them separately. It can be very effective with certain things. Take modern medicine as an example. If you specialize with an organ (the heart, eg) you can learn an enormous amount. The problem, of course, is that the body is actually one thing, not 100 things, etc. But, if you have a doctor who only treats one thing and ignores the 99, he can kill you! So, we have “wholisitic” medicine that tries to see the whole body.

    Orthodox theology has a preferred tendency to see everything-all-at-once, to comprehend the whole. It can’t be done really, but it’s closer to reality than seeing a single part. So, Orthodox thought tends to be maximalist, wholistic, etc., rather than reductionist.

    I have sometimes written that “everything is Pascha.” This is not an attempt to reduce everything to Pascha, but to say that you’re not seeing Pascha until you’re seeing everything.

    Your observation is spot-on. Everything is for our salvation. That means that we need to see our salvation in much larger terms than usual (so it’s not just going to heaven) and that we see “everything” in a different manner. In Orthodox thought, we say that “Orthodoxy is a way of life.” It’s also why we can’t just straight-up answer, “Are you saved?”

    The insights regarding this are a key to an Orthodox “phronema” (mindset).

  29. Matthew Avatar
    Matthew

    I meant to say:

    “I often viewed the cross one way, the RESURRECTION another way …”

    Sorry!

  30. Matthew Avatar
    Matthew

    Thanks so much Fr. Stephen.

    If everything is for our salvation, then why the sincere focus on the Crucified Christ? Why not on the Resurrected Christ or the Ascended Christ, etc.?

  31. Shannon Avatar
    Shannon

    Fr Stephen
    I appreciate both those replies, and look forward to diving into them when i am able.
    But i did not “just read sacrifice” and have mind filled with preconceptions. My question did not use the word.
    If sacrifices for sin or to pay its debt or appease an offended god is “pagan”, then much of the verbiage of the OT Law and temple-altar system sound nearly identical. But the Law was from God, therefore not pagan. And, pardon me, but you, in neither reply, addressed those two texts, the very core of my question. The imagery of Ephesians 5:2 sounds exactly like that in the Torah. If the Cross (at least in one of its aspects) was not an offering to God as a payment for sins, how on earth was it “fragrant” to God?

  32. Fr. Stephen Avatar

    Shannon,
    I did not mean to dodge those verses – but saw that the operative word was “sacrifice.” So, that is where I directed my attention. Pagan sacrifice was seen as a payment, as a bribe, even as “feeding” the gods. Though the outward form of the OT sacrifices is similar, the killing of animals and the pouring out of blood, it was a constant battle in Israel to prevent these offerings from being misunderstood in a pagan manner. And so, Amos says:

    “I hate, I despise your feast days, And I do not savor your sacred assemblies. Though you offer Me burnt offerings and your grain offerings, I will not accept them, Nor will I regard your fattened peace offerings.” (Amos 5:21–22)

    Or, perhaps more strongly:

    “Hear, O My people, and I will speak, O Israel, and I will testify against you; I am God, your God! I will not rebuke you for your sacrifices Or your burnt offerings, Which are continually before Me. I will not take a bull from your house, Nor goats out of your folds. For every beast of the forest is Mine, And the cattle on a thousand hills. I know all the birds of the mountains, And the wild beasts of the field are Mine. “If I were hungry, I would not tell you; For the world is Mine, and all its fullness. Will I eat the flesh of bulls, Or drink the blood of goats? Offer to God thanksgiving, And pay your vows to the Most High. Call upon Me in the day of trouble; I will deliver you, and you shall glorify Me.”(Psalm 50:7–15)

    God has no need of these sacrifices (as the pagan gods do). He is Lord of all things and all things are His. But this pagan sacrificial theme (the surrounding culture of Israel) kept sneaking its way in and distorting Israel’s understanding. Penal substitution theory (which is not ancient, despite the Scriptures that have been used to support it) is pagan at its very heart. It’s a “theory” a metaphor for interpretation. But the metaphor had to come about before it was applied as a lens for reading the Scriptures. It was widely popularized in Western Christianity. But it is not present in the ancient writers of the Eastern Church.

    So, what happens in a sacrifice? An offering is made. A life is poured out. As a Christian, we could say that the animal sacrifices prefigure the sacrifice of Christ on the Cross (in which Christ is the “Offerer and the Offered, the Receiver and the Received,” to quote Chrysostom). But it is a mistake to take pagan theories of paying a god, of feeding a god, to misinterpret the OT sacrifices, then take that misinterpretation to misunderstand the sacrifice of Christ. It’s backwards. We start with Christ and read the other things through Him.

    The deep theme of sacrifice is that of union and communion. In the OT, the animal represents the one making the offering. The animal is him. It is killed, and then usually eaten (except in the whole-burnt offering). The eating is as important as the killing. We eat in order to be one with God. The sacrifice is a means of union.

    So, with Christ. Though the disciples do not yet understand it, He says, “Take, eat. This is my Body which is given to you…for the remission of sins (the remission of sins is our union with Christ, not a “wiping clean the ledger of legal debts”).

    Again, if you want to dig deep into this most important question, I highly recommend Fr. Patrick Reardon’s Reclaiming the Atonement.

    For those of us who were taught PSA as a lens for reading the Scriptures, it’s a difficult transition to “see” that it is a system being imposed on the Scriptures, not derived from the Scriptures. It’s just not there.

    An interesting classic book by a Protestant author (on atonement theory), I also recommend, Christus Victor, by Gustav Aulen. It’s quite interesting to consider that the Eastern Church never developed or saw the PSA in its life and teachings, despite the fact that it was utterly buried in the Scriptures, immersed in their reading (in the original languages). The same fathers who gave us the Nicene Creed did not see it in the Scriptures. It does not appear as a theory until around 1000 a.d. How did they miss it if it was there?

    One of the fruits of PSA has been to externalize the notion of sin, substituting a legal or forensic notion of sin when, according to the Scriptures, it is inward and ontological – a distortion in our being. We do not have a legal problem with God.

    So, you say that Ephesians 5:2 “sounds exactly like that in the Torah.” By that, I’m assuming that you think the Torah taught a legal theory of sin. That, too, is a protestant distortion of Judaism, a misunderstanding.

    How is the sacrifice “fragrant” to God? What, forgive me, is “fragrant” about paying a sin-debt? “Fragrant” is clearly a metaphor (God doesn’t need good smells from us). What God wants from us is union. We were and are created by God for communion with Him. It is pleasing to Him because it is the fulfillment of His love.

    In the Church to this day, incense is blessed with the words, “We offer to Thee, Christ our God, this incense as a spiritual fragrance; receive it, we pray, upon Thy heavenly altar and send down upon us, in return, the grace of Thy Holy Spirit.” It is a literal offering (we burn it), but it is a “spiritual fragrance” – the fragrance of union with God. We offer, He blesses. It’s the nature of our daily life as well:

    “I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that you present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God, which is your reasonable service.” (Romans 12:1)

    This living sacrifice is not a payment. Sacrifice is obviously not about payment. It’s about union with God.

    Thanks for the questions. Sorry if my answers are inadequate or confusing. The reads I’ve recommended are excellent (especially Reardon).

  33. Fr. Stephen Avatar

    Matthew,
    An additional thought: Icons have a way of doing this “everything at the same time” in their depictions of a feast, etc. For example, in the Nativity Icon, there is the cave, but the cave is depicted in a manner that looks like the cave of Hades in the Resurrection icons. The child in the manger’s swaddling cloths are depicted in a manner that is reminiscent of a burial shroud. So, the Nativity also is a depiction of Christ’s death and resurrection. There are other examples, as well. The hymnody of the Church loves to play with these sorts of “this is everything” themes.

  34. Eugene Detweiler Avatar
    Eugene Detweiler

    For some 12 years I sat under a pastor of a large nondenominational church, who had written his doctoral thesis on the penal substitution theory of atonement (The Doctrine of Substitution in the OT), and who had been a professor at a ‘theological seminary,’ so I knew that there was a price to pay (alienation) when through the writings of Charles G. Finney I began to think differently about ‘original sin.’ While Finney (Moral Government Theology) rejects PSA, I considered its alternative view to be essentially the same, and continued seeking an understanding of ‘atonement.’ One of the first things to become apparent was this multifaceted aspect of atonement.

    I have come to understand atonement as — the price God must pay to remain present with us. His presence (grace) is our salvation. (Simply stated)

    I wonder, Fr. Stephen, would it be inconsistent with Orthodoxy to say, that ‘life’ only works one way, and that is through a willingness to offer one’s self, for the good of being? and that, as a revelation of God, the cross of Christ is the pure expression of God entering into communion with the whole of creation, offering all of Himself for the purpose of establishing a place ‘wherein dwelleth righteousness’ (2 Pe 3:13-14). Participation in the cross, is creation answering back in affirmation. (?)

    P.S. I love the depth of the Orthodox understanding of atonement, and how far the understanding reaches to gather all things together in One.

  35. Dee of St Herman Avatar
    Dee of St Herman

    Father,
    I also read Christ saying how the meaning of the OT has been obscured by false teachings e.g., references to turning the cheek; a person is a murderer if they hold anger; the washing of bowls; divorce; last but not least, literally eating His body–was considered strongly non-Judaic teaching (He lost many disciples the day He said this). This last situation again highlights the meaning of communion, where what we eat becomes physically a part of us (“Abide in Me” and “I in the Father”), which is meant to underscore the significance of the sacrifices of old.

    I was also taught what you are describing in my Orthodox catechism classes. Your understandings are not unique, and I too was directed to read the Fathers closely.

  36. Dee of St Herman Avatar
    Dee of St Herman

    Dear Dana,
    I just saw your comment. Please forgive me I’m going to take a look now.

  37. Matthew Avatar
    Matthew

    Thanks again Fr. Stephen. If it is “everything”, then why the focus on just one aspect – the “Crucified Christ”?

  38. Kenneth Avatar
    Kenneth

    Fr. Stephen, thank you for recommending Fr. Patrick Reardon’s book on the atonement. I just read his book on the Psalms and it was excellent! I will get his book on the atonement as well.

  39. Fr. Stephen Avatar

    Eugene,
    I’d probably need to take a deeper dive into what you’re describing, but it has strong echoes with Orthodox thought.

  40. Fr. Stephen Avatar

    Dee, Shannon,
    I think we fail to see how much Protestantism distorted Christian understanding (my apologies to Protestant readers). But, given the situation in which Protestantism(s) arose, it’s not surprising to see that it’s primary drive was an anti-Roman Catholic reading of almost everything. That polemic became the lenses through which the Scriptures were read. After a fashion, Protestantism “invented” a version of Judaism (OT) which was, to their mind, simply an OT version of Roman Catholicism which needed to be replaced by Protestant teaching on grace, etc. This was not just a 16th century thing – it became a hidden polemic even in 19th century historical studies. So, we have imaginary Roman Catholics, in which the Protestant polemic created a Catholic straw man who could easily be bashed and demolished by their arguments. The same was applied to Jews – giving us imaginary Jews and imaginary Judaism. What we got was a new version of Christianity, mostly designed to thwart its imaginary enemies. Catholics reading these descriptions were surprised to see themselves as accused of saying things they never said, or twisting their words. The same was true of Jews. What Protestantism did not do was turn its polemical/critical eye upon itself and see how they were distorting Scripture, history, and the world around them. It invented secularism, modernism, radical individualism, and has yielded a vast confusion of thousands of denominations, including those who have fallen into insane heresies and such.

    But, they’re all around us. They profess Christ. They’re not the enemy. We have lots of teaching to do.

  41. Fr. Stephen Avatar

    Matthew,
    I’m following St. Paul on that – but when I say “the Crucified Christ” – I mean the Crucified Christ in His fullness (everywhere) and not just the single event. The “Lamb was slain from before the foundation of the world” (so Christ Crucified). After the resurrection He still has the marks of the nails (so Christ Crucified). It is not just an event. Christ Crucified reveals Christ. From all time and for all time. St. Maximus said, “He who understands the mystery of the Cross understands all things.” It is also helpful when we struggle against the false notions of the philosophers’ God.

  42. Dee of St Herman Avatar
    Dee of St Herman

    Father,
    I appreciate your words about Protestantism. I reflect on my grandfather, who seemed to have been a saint and was Protestant.

    Yet supposedly in the name of Christ, Protestants and other confessions have done horrific things. That they profess Christ doesn’t hold that much meaning (if any) for me. Please forgive me. I live in a place where other confessions have done significant damage that has hurt generations of Alaska Native peoples.

  43. Matthew Avatar
    Matthew

    Dee said:

    “Yet supposedly in the name of Christ, Protestants and other confessions have done horrific things. That they profess Christ doesn’t hold that much meaning (if any) for me. Please forgive me.”

    This is true Dee, but might it not also be true of some Orthodox as well? I remember seeing a photo of an Orthodox priest (I believe Russian Orthodox) sprinkling Holy Water on airplane bombs! Might this not also be an example of a profession of Christ that doesn´t hold much meaning? Forgive me too if I have misrepresented in any way, but that photo spoke volumes to me.

    Lord have mercy.

  44. Matthew Avatar
    Matthew

    Thanks so much again Fr. Stephen.

  45. Alan Avatar
    Alan

    Matthew,
    When the United States bombed the nation of Serbia in 1999, they continued the bombing during Pascha. There are pictures (easy to find with a simple G search) of American pilots writing “Happy Easter!” on the bombs they dropped that day. Unconscionable. So, these things happen.
    Fr Stephen and Dee certainly don’t need me to speak for them. To be frank, no sides are clean (as your example and mine point out) but as a former Protestant for four decades, I wholeheartedly agree with Fr Stephen’s long standing assessment that the current decadent and evil state of the US, is the product of Protestant thought and teaching.

  46. Fr. Stephen Avatar

    Matthew,
    You beat me to the punch! I think to myself, if my life were extended over hundreds of years, and acted out across the history of a number of nations, it would look as problematic as protestant history. Part of my life IS Protestant history. And it’s true that both Roman Catholicism and Orthodoxy (as institutions, etc.) have their own sins to point to that are problematic.

    But, what I will say for Orthodoxy (and this has more to do with a unique set of historical circumstances), it has preserved its inner life (as expressed in the liturgical tradition and practice) largely unchanged since about the 4th century (I know there have been changes around the edges, but nothing that changed the larger part of the services). That has preserved Orthodoxy, despite its sins. Also, Orthodoxy does not claim to be without sin. It claims to be what it is – the historical continuation of that which was founded by Christ. Whether Roman Catholicism has made too many changes is another conversation. It’s a conversation that Protestantism cannot even enter.

    But, regardless, no one is without sin. But, what I have said viz. Protestantism in the last few comments, is simply what is historically the case.

  47. Matthew Avatar
    Matthew

    Thanks so much for the comment Alan.

    You said:

    “I wholeheartedly agree with Fr Stephen’s long standing assessment that the current decadent and evil state of the US, is the product of Protestant thought and teaching.”

    I think I agree.

    You also said:

    “To be frank, no sides are clean”

    This supports the main point I was attempting to make in my comment to Dee. I think because this is an Orthodox blog, sometimes the comments are very negative towards the west while ignoring the shortcomings of the east. We are not allowed to talk about politics much (if at all) here, nor are we allowed to be critical of the Orthodox hierarchy or any particular bishops. I respect those rules because I want to continue to contribute here, but I do think if we opened up those cans more completely, we would also glean deeper insight into the shortcomings of the east.

    As you brilliantly said … no sides are clean.

  48. Fr. Stephen Avatar

    Alan,
    I wonder to myself: Whose decadence would I most prefer to live under? All 3 have their own versions of decadence.

  49. Fr. Stephen Avatar

    Matthew,
    There are real apples-and-oranges issues in these comparisons. The history of Russia is tragic (for example), for which the West is not without culpability. Greece and the Balkans were under Turkish oppression for centuries and thus are more of an orange than an apple.

    If, for example, we actually took seriously what America did to the native population, Russia would look quite good by comparison. But, when the standard is modern liberal “democracies,” America looks like a great apple.

    But, as you note, I write as an Orthodox priest (with rules for comments). I also write as an American, with a largely American audience (though I’m truly grateful for my many non-American readers). My critique is thus skewed in its direction towards the present surrounding culture in which I find myself. If I lived elsewhere, I’d probably direct my attentions elsewhere, as I wrote from my prison cell. 🙂

  50. Matthew Avatar
    Matthew

    Thanks Fr. Stephen.

    Frankly, I would love to see healthy conversation here between Catholic and Orthodox priests and theologians who are more intimately acquainted with the nuances of the outstanding issues between the two Churches. Also, I know Catholic thinkers have their reasons for supporting the primacy of the Pope and for believing they are Christ´s true Church. I have to believe there are such individuals reading this blog and its comments. I only wish their voices would be heard, especially because this is such a safe place to discuss difficult and sometimes polarizing topics. Sadly, I simply cannot speak to any of this in a definitive and articulate way.

  51. Fr. Stephen Avatar

    Matthew,
    I understand. It’s just not a topic that is on my list for discussion. FWIW, I think that Papal Supremacy and Synodality are not ultimately compatible. The Orthodox have lived with synodality (with all of its concomitant problems) since the beginning. Papal supremacy is a late-comer historically (and I think RC thinkers would agree with that – covering it with the “development of doctrine”). But what RC’s see as “development,” the Orthodox see as an unwarranted and unauthorized change. It comes with a nasty bit of history.

    Orthodoxy shares a great deal in common with Roman Catholicism (especially when compared with Protestantism). I made a very conscious decision to become Orthodox, when I could just have easily have become Roman Catholic (and been re-ordained as a priest – for that had already come into effect by 1998). I rejected it because I do not believe the papal doctrines, nor do I accept the innovations that have been put in place post-schism. Frankly, I’m able to be generous about all of this because I’m not in the position of having to defend or make the case all the time.

    If that conversation were a frequent part of things here – I suspect it would become less irenic, temptations being what they are.

    It’s interesting to me that the “West” (including Roman Catholicism) has come to be greatly dominated by Protestantism. Even Rome has a lot of Protestant influences these days simply as it tries to accommodate itself to secularism in various ways. Secularism is a Protestant notion. But these are serious questions for internal Catholic conversation (and they do take place). Catholicism is far less influential in the West than secular culture. Secular culture likes it Christianity to be thin, watered-down, and somewhat confused. Catholicism is too imperial (as is Orthodoxy) and medieval. It champions anything a pope might say that seems mildly secularistic. It has little use for the real thing.

  52. Fr. Stephen Avatar

    Matthew,
    You’ve noted before my statement that “I don’t have an ecumenical bone in my body.” It’s not that I don’t care about the problems that people face in the contradictions of church life. However, the Orthodox confession of being the “one” Church is simply the confession of the Creed. “I believe in One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church.” There’s no nuance added to the statement in Orthodoxy. It’s not “one Church, two lungs,” despite that Patriarch of Constantinople saying such a thing (the other Patriarchs rejected this). Schism is a terrible thing, and we live with its consequences. Schism is not the same thing as heresy, but it creates a dangerous breeding ground. But, in terms of “ecumenical” conversation – as Orthodox, I do not imagine a scenario in which anything other than the full and complete embracing of the Orthodox faith would be possible or accepted. Anything else is merely politics. In secularism, politics is everything. Everything can be negotiated, because all that matters is what you’re willing to accept or compromise with. The heart of Orthodoxy (as I’ve experienced it) refuses to accept this idea. This holds true with people in every Orthodox jurisdiction that I discussed it with.

    It’s not really a division of East and West. That suggests something political. That’s not the true nature of the schism. The great danger was always to “agree to disagree and just get along.” The unity which Christ has given us is like the unity of a marriage. We long to be of “one mind.” But that’s the very spiritual heart of the faith. It’s difficult as a conversation.

    I keep you in my prayers – and want you to know how welcome you are here. I suspect that the conversations are of benefit – and I apologize that all the conversations you might would welcome are not possible. I’m honored to be part of that conversation and to serve as host.

  53. Michael Bauman Avatar
    Michael Bauman

    I have worshipped in many different traditions in my life. In some, Jesus was not detectible and Mary was not even acknowledged.
    Saints were mostly imaginary.

    My first trip to an Orthodox Church, showed me the living present reality of them all. The longer I have been Orthodox, the more real the teachings have become: not just “beliefs” but in the practice of life.

    I commune through the icons and have since day one when the Blessed Mary talked to me from the iconostasis confirming everything is real.

    That includes my sins and the ability to repent.

    Rejoice in the Lord always.

  54. Dee of St Herman Avatar
    Dee of St Herman

    I have not said that the Orthodox do not do horrific things. In fact I have mentioned specifically such history in my prior comments on another stream in this blog. I also have said emphatically that the Orthodox Church is not perfect —it has sinners!

    When I submitted my comment, the topic was on Protestantism. My comment about what they profess was in the context of implying that such profession gives them a position above or better or at least different from others who do not make such professions. Frankly I just do not believe that. And I was pointing to the fact that such professions are not sufficient to have meaning for me. And I specifically mentioned why.

    In the community of Alaska Native peoples were Orthodox Christian Alaska Native Peoples that were harmed in the name of Christ. These people, the Alaska Native people were not at war.

    Matthew, I’m Orthodox. I don’t hide and will not hide my bias. God willing I abide in Christ in The Orthodox Church which is the Body of Christ. The Creed says one apostolic Church not two lungs of one Church. “One” is not analogy or an abstraction. Nevertheless you have never read a comment of mine that said the Orthodox Church was perfect or anything near that. Although you regularly want to extrapolate that from my words.

    My conversion undoubtedly was very different from yours or from anyone moving from one church to another. Not because you’re Catholic and I’m not, but because I was looking for Christ not for a Church “home”. Wherever He was that was where I wanted to be.

    But you want to defend your home and I get that.

    This is probably going to be very hard to understand that I’m not defending Orthodoxy when I say the Orthodox Church is The Body of Christ. For me it’s a matter of fact. And it doesn’t matter what anyone says about it good or bad. It doesn’t hurt my feelings and I don’t need to defend it. Christ is the defender and Christ is the judge.

    Getting back to the rest of my comment: confessions harmed the community I now serve. I live among and serve this community. And I will not turn a blind eye to what ‘other confessions’ have done here. This is no abstract history. The elders —an entire generation are still living and bear the scars.

    When I hear of the horrific things that happened through the hands of Orthodox people I listen and learn. Yes I’ve seen the blessings on bombs and I have not turned a blind eye to that either, ever. That wasn’t news for me.

    Last, I have not turned a blind eye to the witness in the Bible that mentions even the demons professed Christ.

  55. Matthew Avatar
    Matthew

    Thanks for your comments Fr. Stephen and Dee.

    Dee … one last thing … I am not extrapolating anything from you words. From my point of view your words are sometimes (if not often) very condemning toward other confessions – especially Protestantism. I am sorry for everyone and every nation that has suffered at the hands of ugly forms of Christian expansionism. I can only move forward attempting to live the commands of Christ as best as I can in this very broken world.

    I wish you both a very good day.

  56. Dee of St Herman Avatar
    Dee of St Herman

    Yes , Matthew, I know how you take what I say., you make that clear regardless of what I say about the faults of the Orthodox Church.

    I suppose you didn’t read what I wrote about a Catholic priest?

  57. Dee of St Herman Avatar
    Dee of St Herman

    Also I apologize to emphasize this additional point. I do this because I believe it is important to say. When Christian adults harm Christian children, this emphatically not Christian expansionism or evangelism. It’s something else. These actions in Alaska were sanctioned by the clerical hierarchy in the other confessions. This is a sad story but galvanising for me not to accept the notion that the profession of Christ as meaningful.

  58. Dn Philip Wagner Avatar
    Dn Philip Wagner

    Consistent with your thoughts and Fr Tom is Fr John Behr’s definition of who as Christian
    we believe God is. “The crucified and risen one proclaimed by the apostles according to the scriptures.” When this is used it addresses the question and places the responsibility for the condition on man and thus opening the door to repentance and reconciliation.

  59. Alan Avatar
    Alan

    Father, perhaps my exact wording caused problems.
    I was simply agreeing with something you have stated many times in this space, over the years. That the current state our our native country IS the product of Protestant thought. If I have misunderstood your (many) statements on this matter, please correct me.

  60. Alan Avatar
    Alan

    Apologies for the typo. That should read: “….current state of our native….”

  61. Fr. Stephen Avatar

    Alan,
    American culture is indeed a product (or by-product) of Protestant thought. For better and for worse.

  62. Michael Bauman Avatar
    Michael Bauman

    Father, et. al.
    I know Nietzsche quite well. I was assigned him as a major project as a senior history major. I read everything he wrote. Two things happened: I got to know the Nietzsche quite well and I encountered Jesus Christ. Not deeply, but sufficiently to keep me protected and to begin to see the utter emptiness of Nietzsche’s thought and set me on my path to God.

    I got an ‘A’ on my paper which rejected Nietzsche’s premise and conclusions. BUT his thought has largely prevailed despite its prevalence in modernity. Also accept my conclusion that, at best, Nietzsche is profoundly useless. At worst, an endless supply of cyanide for human intra-relationships

  63. Fr. Stephen Avatar

    It is amazing how little philosophers have to say about love.

  64. Michael Bauman Avatar
    Michael Bauman

    Also, Walter Kaufman remains an excellent commentator on Nietzsche. M

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