Prayers for the Dead

The Orthodox pray for the departed. The most pressing prayer within the liturgies appointed for this purpose is for God to forgive their sins. We say, “For no one lives and does not sin, for You only are without sin….” This is easily misunderstood, but it goes to the very heart of the mystery of our relationship with God.

The same sentiment, interestingly, is offered in the prayers for the living. The priest says:

Again we pray for mercy, life, peace, health, salvation, and visitation for the servants of God [especially ______], and for the pardon and remission of their sins.

This can sometimes create a jarring moment. For example, I always include the names of the women who are pregnant in my parish (there always seem to be a bunch of them). Thus, “for Susan and the child she carries,” only to be followed by “and for the pardon and remission of their sins.” So every one of the living whom we pray for is under this concern “for the pardon and remission of their sin.”

All of this is complicated by our culture’s confusion about sin. When a contemporary person hears the term “sin,” they immediately think in legal terms. We think, “They must have done something wrong and now they need to be forgiven.” So, recently on Mothers’ Day, I intoned, “for our mothers living this day…and for the pardon and remission of their sins.” Some mothers might indeed look at us, their offspring, and think that perhaps they sinned by bringing us into the world! But this is not at all the meaning of the prayer.

Sin is not a legal problem. It is not a breaking of the rules for which we now deserve punishment. When we ask for God to forgive someone’s sins, we are not asking God to “let them off the hook,” or some such thing. Sin and forgiveness have to do with our broken communion with God and others. It is a state of being out-of-communion or in which our communion with God and others is somehow impaired.

God is Life. He is the Lord and Giver of Life. He is the only source of life for everything that exists. Our broken and impaired communion with Him results in death. St. Paul said, “The wages of sin is death.” It’s the natural outcome of broken communion. The only way to “forgive” such a broken communion is to restore it. That restoration of communion is the very essence of what we mean when we say “forgiveness.” To be forgiven is to be made whole, beginning with our communion with God.

Thus, when we pray for the living, the very heart of our prayer is for the forgiveness of their sins. Not because we’re aware of some rules which they have broken, but because the forgiveness of sin, the restoration of communion with God, is the source of every good thing, without which nothing can be good or well.

When we pray for those who have died and the forgiveness of their sins, we are asking the same thing, for their communion with God, whether broken or impaired, to be made whole. Of course, we enter mysterious ground in all of this. The Orthodox Church has very little to say in a definitive manner about prayers for the departed. The doctrine of purgatory is a development with Western Catholicism and plays no part in Orthodoxy. Officially, the Church says that our prayers for the departed are “of benefit.” They help.

Some teachers in the Tradition hold that once we die, there is nothing that we can do for ourselves. But these same teachers hold that the prayers of the living do wonderful things for us. Others hold that we can indeed do things for ourselves after death, but also acknowledge the benefit of the prayers of the living.

What is essential in this is something that runs very counter to our contemporary minds, formed as they are by the false assumptions of modernity. Salvation, the full and complete restoration of communion with God and our complete healing, is not a private matter. We are not saved alone, for “alone” is the very antithesis of salvation. Communion is how we exist. Neither can we have communion with God without communion with our neighbor (1 John 4:20-21), Our contemporary culture imagines that we are self-existing, that life is merely a matter of biology. However, true existence, both in this life and the next, is marked by communion, both with God and with others.

This is the very heart of our salvation. That the Church prays for those who have died is the abiding confession that death does not destroy our communion with one another. That our prayers are of “benefit” for those who have died is the abiding confession that our communion is real and effective. That we ask the prayers of the saints is the abiding confession that those who have finished the course are of benefit to us.

The teaching of the Church is that the prayers of the Divine Liturgy are the most effective prayers of all. For it is in the Holy Eucharist that the whole Church, on earth and in heaven, united supremely in Christ, its life in union with His sacrifice, is offered to the Father. Here the Son presents the Kingdom to the Father, that God might be “all in all” (1 Cor. 15:28).

It is indeed tragic that contemporary Christianity has lost this ancient understanding of the faith. With the radical individualism of the modern world, the mystery of communion and true participation (koinonia) have been forgotten, and with them, whole passages of Scripture have ceased to have their true meaning. Even the word koinonia, which has the Greek meaning of “commonality” or “participation,” is rendered in English translations as “fellowship.” Instead, Scripture tells us that we are in Christ and that Christ is in us, that we are members of one single Body, that we have communion with the sufferings of Christ, that His death becomes our death and our death becomes His, etc. This most fundamental element of the grammar of Christianity has ceased to be spoken by most of the contemporary world.

This same tragedy has deepened modern grieving and created the tragically feeble efforts now known as “celebrations of life” as substitutes for true Christian funerals. Memory, made as pleasant as possible, becomes the repository of those whom we now have truly “lost.” All communion is severed, and the dead pass out of our lives. But, in reality, they do not. The mind, bereft of true communion wanders about, seeking a solace that can only be imagined. Grief therapists seek to create psychological moments of healing with no basis outside of the mind and the emotions, places where dogs chase their tales in circles that can never be resolved. “Time heals all wounds,” becomes the modern panacea, so long as time promises a sad forgetfulness.

Many people are staggered the first time they attend an Orthodox funeral. The frankness with which death is addressed and acknowledged disturbs our modern sensibilities. Some of the ancient hymns that are traditionally sung by the choir are laments sung from the point-of-view of the departed:

As you see me set before you mute and without breath, weep for me, my brethren, family, and all who know me, for I spoke with you only yesterday, and suddenly the fearful hour of death came upon me. Come, all those who love me and give me the last kiss, for never again shall I journey or talk with you until the end of time. For I go to a Judge Who is impartial, where servant and master stand side by side. King and soldier, rich and poor, are held in equal esteem. For each will be glorified by his own deeds, or will be put to shame. But I ask and implore you all to pray without ceasing for me to Christ our God, that I may not be put into the place of torment because of my sins, but that He may appoint me to a place where there is the light of life. now and ever and unto ages of ages. Amen.

The funeral marks only the beginning of a new communion. In Orthodox practice, prayers are offered on the third, ninth and fortieth days after death, and every year on the anniversary of our parting. Funeral services conclude with the ancient hymn, “Memory eternal!” In which the Church prays that God will forever remember the departed. To be remembered by God is nothing less than life eternal.

The faithful are urged to give alms in the name of the departed. In traditional Orthodox practice, those alms were a way of asking for the poor to remember the soul of the one who had died. Candles are lit in memory and the prayers of the Eucharist are offered repeatedly. In Orthodox practice, the priest offers a service of prayers for each of the first forty days after death. Annual visits are made to the graves of the departed where prayers are offered yet again.

In all of these things, the reality of our eternal participation in one another and together in the life of God is foremost. All of these customs face an uphill battle in the dead-and-gone emptiness of the modern world. We have forgotten our ancestors and can only expect to be forgotten ourselves. Christ gives us a greater hope:

But the souls of the righteous are in the hand of God, and no torment will ever touch them. In the eyes of the foolish they seemed to have died, and their departure was thought to be an affliction, and their going from us to be their destruction; but they are at peace. For though in the sight of men they were punished, their hope is full of immortality. Having been disciplined a little, they will receive great good, because God tested them and found them worthy of himself; like gold in the furnace he tried them, and like a sacrificial burnt offering he accepted them. In the time of their visitation they will shine forth, and will run like sparks through the stubble. (Wisdom 3:1-7)

May their memory be eternal!

About Fr. Stephen Freeman

Fr. Stephen is a retired Archpriest of the Orthodox Church in America. He is also author of Everywhere Present: Christianity in a One-Storey Universe, and Face to Face: Knowing God Beyond Our Shame, as well as the Glory to God podcast series on Ancient Faith Radio.



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80 responses to “Prayers for the Dead”

  1. Margaret Avatar
    Margaret

    May their memories be eternal! Thank you so very much for all your words here, Fr Stephen!

  2. John Riley Avatar
    John Riley

    Beautifully written. I was once asked to describe the biggest theological difference between East and West. I think I tried to describe the Eastern understanding of the sacraments. I received a glazed stare and the person who asked for my opinion quickly changed the subject. If I’m ever asked that question again I think maybe I’ll try to remember some of this article and tell them that sin is not a legal problem, that we are not saved alone, and that the mystery of communion has been been forgotten in the West.

  3. christa Avatar
    christa

    father stephen, please listen to my situation and advise if possible. my husband left me to marry another with divorce papers i made out and later i gave him permission to use. (big sin) We wrote a letter together in repentance to our priest, I remained in the church whereas he was not reconciled with that particular jurisdiction and I am not certain if he came back to orthodoxy, but I know he sometimes attended catholic services. He worked as a traveling RN. He died suddenly, within a week, of having a heart attack. He was cremated as I believe he chose, since he felt an affinity for the jewish people of the houlocost. his wife left his ashes at the end of my driveway. This was the end of 2011. I would like to bury them and have a funeral service. My priest says he cannot say memorial prayers or take part in a funeral or burial, as I cannot vouch that he was orthodox, or went to an orthodox church at the time of his death. I thought on soul saturday we pray for all those who have died. None of the dead in my family of origen were orthodox. I do pray for them. I have the feeling that something like this depends on the priest and the jurisdiction. I can after all bury my former husband, who was always my dear friend in spite of all the sin we visited upon our family. I do not know how to heal this. I pray for love and obedience to be clarified. humbly and with fear,

  4. Fr. Stephen Avatar

    John,
    Thank you. The mystery of communion is, I think, at the very core of Orthodox theology and understanding.

  5. Fr. Stephen Avatar

    Christa,
    It is true, that this might be handled differently depending on the jurisdiction (or the priest). Even in situations that are not “clear” – a priest can get a blessing from his bishop to handle things for the pastoral good of all concerned. If you are able to “ask around” – you might find a local priest who would be helpful. I’ll be praying.

    In the parishes I have served, all of the departed whose names are submitted are prayed for. I understand that other priests/jurisdictions sometimes handle this differently. I do what I was taught to do and have been blessed to do.

  6. christa Avatar
    christa

    reread FORGIVE EVERYONE FOR EVERYTHINGwhich you wrote. That brings healing. especially the prayer of final absolution. and participating in a soul saturday liturgy online. Thanks for that. Thanks be to God for all things. Indeed!
    Thank you for your response.

  7. Francine Avatar
    Francine

    Thank you for posting this and giving me an even deeper meaning of Orthodoxy in the hour of our own death and especially for those we pray for as we did today in Saturday of the Souls. I pray for communion with Christ in my soul as with my life. Thank you.

  8. Ook Avatar
    Ook

    After my father passed in 2014 (age 92 so most of his friends were already deceased), the local monastery and some local churches received easily over a hundred requests for liturgical commemoration, including more than one Sorokoust. Even now 10 years on, a few people are continuing. I doubt this will happen when I pass. I’ve often wondered what this difference means in terms of Communion.

    [Editor’s note: A Sorkoust is the Russian name for the 40 days prayers for the departed]

  9. Esmée Noelle Covey Avatar
    Esmée Noelle Covey

    The corporate nature of Orthodox Christianity took me a long time to grow into and appreciate, but now I cannot imagine my life without the deep understand of how we all work together for our salvation. On of the most moving experiences I have ever had was going to the old Russian Fort Ross and watching our Bishop walk through the cemetery with a censor while everyone in attendance were singing Memory Eternal for those buried there hundreds of years ago. It made me feel like I was a part of something so much larger than myself. And it was reassuring to think that hundreds of years after my own earthly death, will be other devout Orthodox Christians praying for me

  10. Fr. Stephen Avatar

    Ook,
    I think it means that we live in a time in which piety (in its best meaning) has grown “thin.” This is part of the result of growing secularization. What it represents, I think, is the weakening of the bonds of communion – “hearts grow cold.” We are warned in the Scriptures that such days would come.

    For us as individuals in the modern struggle, I think the Church through the ages looks at us and marvels that we maintain any level of faith at all. We do not see it as such ourselves, but we are surrounded with much larger and more dangerous lions (and demons) than previous centuries. It means, though we do not realize it, that, ever so quietly, great saints are being formed among us.

    According to the Scriptures – in time – as I quoted in the article: “In the time of their visitation they will shine forth, and will run like sparks through the stubble.” This, I believe, will be made manifest on the day of our judgment. There will be many surprises on that day.

  11. Simon the Gray Avatar
    Simon the Gray

    Christa, I want to say something and I mean it sincerely. When we call something a “big sin” that is usually our shame or our guilt speaking. These kinds of losses that you describe take a pound of flesh, and it might be that we never recover. Because of the way we have come to think of sin in the Catholic/Protestant West calling something a “big sin” can imply a hefty dose of self-condemnation. In my honest opinion it isn’t helpful. You followed up with forgive everyone for everything with all caps for emphasis. There’s salvation in that, isn’t there? There is freedom for you and your husband in such forgiveness. Bear whatever shame you have before a confessor. But as for regret and guilt–let it go, let all of it go. Forgive everyone for everything–including yourself. I pray for your peace.

  12. Matthew Avatar
    Matthew

    I need to hear what sin is and what salvation is and what forgiveness is … time and time and time again. I have been participating in this space for about a year and a half now, but still find myself caught in the trap of old thinking and feeling. It only goes to show how deep poor theological teaching can actually be in the heart of so many of us.

    Thanks so much for this encouraging and revealing article. I will try to remember it when we pray for the dead in Church this morning.

  13. Ook Avatar
    Ook

    Thank you Father.
    I compare myself to my father, as everyone says I take after him in terms of talents and personality, and it may sound silly, but I have to remind myself not to see “number of liturgies after my death” as a valid competitive metric.

  14. Matthew Avatar
    Matthew

    Hello John Riley.

    I´m not sure it is completely accurate to say that the mystery of communion has long been forgotten in the west. As Catholics, we understand that salvation is not an individual process and that each time we gather to receive the Eucharist we are proclaiming our communion with one another and with God. I will admit, however, that in my Protestant evangelical days there was no real understanding of communion as is described in this article.

    I can only speak of my own experience in the Catholic Church. What I have personally discovered is that a more eastern understanding of sin and salvation and forgiveness exists in some monateries, but not very much in the pews. Such is sad, but I hope to see change in this area. My priest understands that salvation is union with God and we have talked about this.

    I realize this blog is for Orthodox believers and for those seeking the Orthodox Church, which is why I refrain from talking much about Catholicism here. Thanks for your understanding and I wish you well.

  15. Mallory Avatar
    Mallory

    May their memories be eternal! Thank you for this writing, Father. I am new to the Orthodox faith and every morning I read the scriptures and pray to understand.
    Something I have been wondering about unceasingly (perhaps because my mother is sick and possibly dying), which connects to this writing, is reincarnation. Previously, I was a meditator and a seeker (meaning I had no religion)–during my time of meditation, I felt sure there was reincarnation, which I did not find at all comforting, who would want to do this again, in possibly worse circumstances? Life is not easy. Yet now I don’t know, and I pray for understanding. What is the Orthodox understanding of this? And if there isn’t reincarnation, what becomes of us and our loved ones who pass on? I think often of Jesus saying, “The light of the body is the eye.” What does he mean by this? Does this perhaps mean we are really light? As you can see, I would welcome any thoughts, corrections, wisdom you could offer! I am grateful for your writings, they have brought me to Christ.

  16. Dee of St Herman Avatar
    Dee of St Herman

    Matthew,
    Your own experience is indeed exceptional from what is typically understood in Western Christianity, including the general teachings in Catholic communion. Even with communion there are important differences in theology and practice that I point out (which I have learned about from my teachers including on this blog), only for clarification, especially for those seeking an Orthodox view.

    Dear Matthew you are beloved here. I only seek to clarify.

  17. Matthew Avatar
    Matthew

    Thanks so much Dee. I too only seek to clarify. Peace. 😁

  18. Esmée Noelle Covey Avatar
    Esmée Noelle Covey

    I am so happy that we are once again able to opt in to following the comments and have them delivered to our email inbox. I was really missing this feature, Fr Stephen, since you had to transfer your blog from AFM to here, thank you!

  19. Fr. Stephen Avatar

    Esmée,
    I’m glad that the feature is working again. Thanks for sticking around!

  20. Owen Kelly Avatar
    Owen Kelly

    Matthew,
    I agree with you about the importance of understanding salvation from sin in the way the article describes. Indeed, sin is not a legal problem but an issue of energy: human energy, Divine energy. St Paul uses the Greek word ἐνέργεια on many occasions in his letters. The difference between an Eastern and Western understanding of salvation derives, at least in part, from differing translations of this particular term. I won’t recount the technical details, but if you’re interested, Orthodox philosopher David Bradshaw has several articles on this online.

    The Scriptures often use legal terminology, as well as economic terms, etc, to describe our sin and salvation. Before I ever became Orthodox, I came to realize that understanding these images in a literal way would amount to a mass of mental confusion. They just don’t fit together logically. I came to see them instead as metaphorical descriptions of a reality that must be experienced and cannot be encompassed by human language. I confess I have often experienced the decrease of my own life energy in consequence of indulging selfish desire. This is not a literal punishment or condemnation from God but a natural consequence written into our being.

    Conversely I’ve also experienced that same energy rising within me, being caught up in a greater wholeness, in consequence of restraining the senses. Giving ourselves away in selfless action, paradoxically, only builds this energy, never depletes it. For me, prayer and meditation are the indispensable taproot in this process. I take it mainly to be a matter of attention, i.e. love. In this way, we grow in our awareness of the Unity of Life. The teachings of Scripture become an experiential testimony of our present life in Christ, not a record of the past or forecast of the future but a right-now roadmap to our growth in God. I trust, Matthew, you are well on this Way.

  21. Fr. Stephen Avatar

    Owen,
    Though I agree with what you’ve written, I have a concern that it can be expressed (and understood) in a way that minimizes Christ’s involvement. There’s a need to be careful not to reduce Christ to a “tool,” a means of maximize the “energeia” in my life.

    It’s for that reason that, when I write about these things, I tend to use the terms “life,” and “communion,” as in “communion in the very life of Christ.” That could be analyzed and expressed using the more philosophical term of energy – but it can also de-personalize it or simply make it a part of the modern project of “being my best.”

    Also, the point of it all is union in the life of Christ. I might very well be a mess – a neurotic, pitiful creature who barely gets by. But united to Christ, I trust that all that will be finally be taken care of in Him – even though I might not see it in this life.

    I have in mind, say, someone who is suffering in a death camp (like Siberia) because of their Christian faith (or much lesser things). The reality that surrounds them is utterly bleak and hideous. The stories from the Romanian prison experiment at Pitesti is just such a case. There were many priests and monks who were there. The regime of experimental torture was so effective that most (we are told) regularly denied Christ, and many were forced to take part in torturing their fellow prisoners. It was said that the greatest danger in the prison was suicide (understandably). So, each day, someone might collapse, deny Christ, betray others, but then the other prisoners would work to restore them and save them for complete despair. Many of these prisoners have recently been canonized by the Church as New Martyrs and Confessors of the faith.

    It is an unthinkable life – though we are describing the lives of certain saints. I would describe it (rather than in terms of divine energies) as the life of Christ in union with them – falling with them (yet without sin), getting them up again and again and again, and just surviving – or even, rescuing them if their despair resulted in suicide. This is the greatness of Christ.

    I worry that in the “preaching” (kerygma) of the faith that we keep Christ Himself central, always and in everything. No Orthodox peasant through the centuries ever used the language of the divine energies – it pretty much never comes up in the liturgical cycle. If you find it helpful for yourself, so be it, but it’s not something that I would recommend as a common practice.

    I had the task for a number of years of introducing and teaching the Orthodox faith to inquirers and catechumens. I always thought that when I caught myself getting too technical that I had probably lost the thread. It was, for example, how I wound up using language and imagery like the “One-Storey Universe” and other images to introduce an understanding of communion, commonality, union with Christ, etc., that runs throughout the liturgical cycle. It was, above all, an effort to help others “attune their ears” to what was being said around them in the services. My experience was that I could say this, write this, preach this, over and over, and then, somewhere along the line, even unpredictably, the “coin would drop” for someone, and the “renewal of the mind” would begin.

    Oddly, I first heard this in a particular Anglican prayer (back in the day). It’s the prayer prayed just before communion in Christ’s Body and Blood:

    “We do not presume to come to this thy Table, O merciful Lord, trusting in our own ​righteousness, but in thy manifold and great mercies. We are not worthy so much as to ​gather ​up the crumbs under thy Table. But thou art the same Lord whose property is ​always to have mercy. Grant us therefore, gracious Lord, so to eat the flesh of thy ​dear ​Son Jesus Christ, and to drink his blood, that we may evermore dwell in him, and he ​in us.” Amen.

    It’s a fully Orthodox prayer (and is part of the Western Rite services in Orthodoxy), very much an expression of the eucharistic language of the gospel of John. Again, it could be expressed in the language of energies – but I would prefer such a prayer to the more philosophical expressions. I suspect Bradshaw would as well.

    Lastly, it’s just not clear to me that we can always describe something we feel as being the “energies” of Christ/God. It’s an identification that can make for problems. Prayer is good. Proper meditation is good. But, we need to avoid a utilitarian approach – “I do this because it makes me feel better, etc.”

    May we evermore dwell in Christ and He in us! Blessings!

  22. Byron Avatar
    Byron

    A good conversation! Very helpful.

    Father, I hope you did not miss Mallory’s questions from FEB 23.

  23. Fr. Stephen Avatar

    Mallory,
    Sorry to be delayed in answering your important questions. The weekend got sort of busy…

    The Orthodox faith does not teach reincarnation. There’s a very significant reason why – it has to do with the uniqueness and eternal value and worth of each individual person. To come back as “somebody else,” much less “something else,” would deny that value and worth.

    When we die, we go to be with God. St. Paul says, “To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord” (2Cor. 5:8). There is some measure of healing and transformation that happens to us after death as well (1Cor. 3:10-15). The Church teaches us that the prayers of the faithful are helpful to those who have died in this work of transformation (because we are all connected with one another).

    St. John describes the end of this transformation: “Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is. (1John 3:2)

    “The light of the body is the eye” – is a saying that means that what we pay attention to (what we see) is what “enlightens” the interior of our life (in a metaphorical sense). It is in a passage where Christ is telling us to take care what we pay attention to.

    God be with you in your continuing journey! Blessings!

  24. Simon the Gray Avatar
    Simon the Gray

    “I have in mind, say, someone who is suffering in a death camp (like Siberia) because of their Christian faith (or much lesser things). ”

    I think this is exactly where our minds should be. We need to always keep our minds and hearts in such hell realizing that which is real is revealed in these flames.

  25. Fr. Stephen Avatar

    When we’re “doing theology,” it’s always useful to have something, someone, practical in mind. I always appreciated when I was studying under Stanley Hauerwas at Duke, that he would frequently call you out (when you were theologizing) and say, “How is that displayed?” It kept us from wandering off into make-believe. It was always sobering.

  26. Simon the Gray Avatar
    Simon the Gray

    Yep. Nothing good happens in the Disney land of our own imagination, cobbling together ideas like lego-blocks.

    Having said that, there are things that are beyond my grasp that keep me from slipping away into the thicket of my own thoughts. Meditation on hypostatic being helps keep me in touch with the Cross, with Christ, the Trinity, the Communion of the Saints, and salvation. Behind these ideas are what we call hypostatic existence. Furthermore, in Christ and the Cross I can say “This is what it looks like.”

  27. Matthew Avatar
    Matthew

    Thanks so much Owen.

    Like I have said a few times here: I am Orthodox in spirit, Catholic in practice.

    The teachers I have been exposed to (like the late Fr. Thomas Keating), as well as my priest, “get it”. There are monasteries, teachers, etc. in Catholicism who understand well the things we have been discussing here. Many lay Catholics, however, do not “get it” and that is sad.

    I´m surprised, though, that I have not read any comments from other Catholics in this space (well … maybe one?). It would be helpful to hear their voices I think; especially voices that are more knowledgeable than mine.

    Peace to all of you and glory to God for all things true, good and beautiful!

  28. Owen Kelly Avatar
    Owen Kelly

    Thanks, Matthew. I empathize with the sense of dual belonging. Truth, goodness, and beauty aren’t the exclusive possession of any one group. I guess that is why I have no desire to convert anyone. Saint Teresa of Calcutta was a beautiful example in this regard. I see in her approach the truest form of catholicity:

    “There is only one God and He is God to all; therefore it is important that everyone is seen as equal before God. I’ve always said that we should help a Hindu become a better Hindu, a Muslim become a better Muslim, a Catholic become a better Catholic.”

    And her witness helps me become better Orthodox. Peace to you as well, friend.

  29. Fr. Stephen Avatar

    Owen,
    I do not find myself to have the luxury of “not making converts.” Christ gives the commandment to go into all the world and make disciples. I think the normative form for that in Orthodoxy is the establishment of parish communities. I’ve had a hand, over the years, of founding 5 Orthodox missions here in the South, and have been the beneficiary of many others. When my beloved Archbishop Dmitri of Dalls began our diocese in 1978, there were but 4 OCA Churches in the South, total. Today, there are around 90 together with monasteries, etc. The bulk of that membership is “converts.”

    When I first visited an Orthodox Church when I was in college (in the mid 70’s), I was politely told to stay in my Anglican parish. I believe, in hindsight, that it was “not time” for me to enter Orthodoxy. But, years later, when I inquired through the work of the OCA in the South, I found a different welcome – a welcome that listened to me, and assisted me as my family and I converted and we took up a new ministry. How could I not do the same for others?

    I try to write in a “soft” manner, not badgering people nor insisting that conversion is the only way forward, but I do not write in order to just make people better whatever it is they already are. We have no such commandment from Christ.

    I think it can be quite misleading to say that our task is to help a Hindu become a better Hindu. I don’t even know what that would mean. All religions are not the same nor equal. Nor is it correct to describe Orthodox Christianity as a religion among religions. We are commanded to love everyone. That is not the same as loving their religions.

    I understand Mother Theresa of Calcutta’s thoughts – and in the context in which she was surrounded by a majority of Hindus and Muslims. Interestingly, she spoke much more strongly when visiting the U.S., identifying us as a “culture of death.” She was safe to speak in such a manner here.

    I suppose context matters.

  30. Dee of St Herman Avatar
    Dee of St Herman

    I’m struck by the difference between Roman Catholic theology and Orthodox theology in which babies and children receive the Eucharist in the Orthodox Tradition. To me this suggests a significant difference in the understanding of communion with Christ. Indeed the Orthodox Church is not a Church among Churches. Nevertheless I will not end this comment with Triumphalism. I’m reading the Lives of the Kollyvades by Archimandrite Constas— monks killing monks—a deeply sad and tragic chapter in Orthodoxy.

  31. Fr. Stephen Avatar

    Dee,
    There are any number of sad chapters in Orthodox history (as there are sad chapters everywhere). It is very important to remember that the historical circumstances of Orthodoxy were greatly disrupted by the “Turkokratia” (the “Turkish Yoke”). That oppression corrupted the election of bishops, patriarchs, etc. It also deeply limited religious education, particularly of a higher sort. This extended into the Balkans as well as the Mideast, Asia Minor, and Greece. The situation of the Kollyvades, for example, is a by-product of Orthodoxy working to throw off the yoke of Western dominance (there were Western missionaries in many Orthodox lands, particularly Jesuits). It is such a complicated history that requires almost a speciality to unravel.

    The manipulation of Orthodox leadership has not stopped, even in the modern age. Geopolitics seeks to control and use Orthodoxy whenever it can for its own purposes. The U.S. State department, and others, has been deeply involved in all of this. It is a peculiar form of suffering and oppression.

    Though my heart is troubled by such things, I am confident of Orthodoxy itself. It successfully survived so much and has recovered and restored ever so much. There are still pockets of problems here and there. My experience has been quite positive. Perhaps our greatest preservative has been the unreformed reality of our worship and its texts. It means that the life of the Church has been able to sustain its people despite the many efforts to destroy or persecute the Church.

    One of the most problematic aspects of Western Churches has been the abiding engine of change – of reform and restructuring. Most Protestants have lost any continuity with ancient worship – and the thread connecting the present to the past is stretched quite thin elsewhere.

    There is no room for triumphalism – simply for a gratitude that God has preserved us – despite ourselves.

  32. Dee of St Herman Avatar
    Dee of St Herman

    Yes Father,
    Indeed there were extenuating circumstances and context that point to how and why these events happened. I appreciate your mention of these. Archimandrite Constas writes about such details, also. It brings to light the sacrifices that Orthodox clergy go through to preserve the Orthodox Church. Political intrigue is the action of the foe of the life in Christ.

  33. Matthew Avatar
    Matthew

    Hello Dee.

    I´m not sure where to begin, and truth be told I have been thinking about leaving the blog. I know you believe the Orthodox Church is the only true Church. I have not pushed back against your claim (whether implied or not) one bit, but your triumphalism (IMO) still shines through.

    I also know that Fr. Stephen has said he “doesn´t have an ecumenical bone in his body”, and while he has been kind regarding my return to Catholicism, it seems clear to me that Fr. Stephen also believes Orthodoxy to be the only true Church … and that is O.K.

    I don´t claim to be able to compete with Fr. Stephen regarding his thorough knowledge about all things Orthodox, but I do have access to information about Catholicism and Orthodoxy and much of what sadly separates them. There are arguments from both sides about who is the true Church; both sides having their scholars, their priests, their apologists. As such, I think there should be more work to heal the brokenness rather than more words that promote separation.

    All that said, there doesn´t seem to be room for any ecumenical discussion here; at least ecumenical as I understand the term as it relates to Catholics and Orthodox. I have learned so much here and have felt the love in this space, but I think my time and patience are running out. I love this blog so much, but I cannot really be myself anymore here I don´t think.

    I only wish more people could understand the deep places within Catholicism that are in agreement with Orthodoxy about what is most important — salvation as union with God.

    If you don´t see me around here anymore (or in very limited ways), know that you are all loved and appreciated. Peace.

  34. Fr. Stephen Avatar

    Matthew,
    I would be sorry not to see you around here. However, the purpose of the blog has always been as a service to the Orthodox community, and to those inquiring about it (whether they are at all interested or not in becoming Orthodox). The rules of the blog require kindness of all of us. If I violate that rule at any time, I apologize.

    When I say that “I don’t have an ecumentical bone in my body” I do not mean that I don’t care for other Christians, nor that there is no possibility of conversation. Rather, it is that I believe the Orthodox Church to be the communion of the One Church confessed in the Creeds. That there is a schism between the Orthodox Church and the Roman Catholic Church is obvious. If such a schism were to be healed, I would certainly rejoice. In Orthodox terms, it would come through an acceptance of Orthodoxy, not through the amendment of Orthodoxy. A number of the issues (eg. Papal Supremacy) have long been described as unacceptable to the Orthodox and will not change (we’re not even happy when the occasional statement comes out of Ecumenical Patriarchate that sound too papal in tone).

    I have been an invited speaker any number of times (and continue to be) at Roman Catholic (especially Eastern Rite Catholic) venues, as well as Oriental Orthodox (Coptic) settings. In those settings, no one asks that I speak about anything other than the Orthodox faith as I have received it. We do not discuss how we might all get together etc.

    In truth, we do very much share much in common – certainly the inheritance of our common years. It’s also true that we share much in common through various sources. You note Catholic priests/writers who are conversant with things that are more “Eastern” in their flavor. One reason that is so is the greater influence of Orthodox writing and teaching over the past century in the West. I think it is very beneficial.

    I have been careful, I think, not to criticize your return to Catholicism, and it obviously is being good for you. I would suggest that you not be defensive about it – in that there’s sort of an Orthodox push-back (almost knee-jerk) about affirming things outside of Orthodoxy.

    As to the language of “One True Church.” You’ll notice that I don’t generally use that term, because I think it says the wrong thing in the wrong way. In general, all Christian “Churches” have some kind of relationship to Orthodoxy – this is recognized, generally, in the manner that such persons are received into sacramental union with the Orthodox. It’s not the same thing as saying “they have valid sacraments.” That’s Western language, not Orthodox. It is the general practice that we do not re-baptize such converts (ROCOR’s practice on this matter is an outlier and does not conform with the near universal practice of the Church). The difficulty with ecumenical matters is that it pushes us into conversations in which we are saying things that are incorrect – and – most commonly – quite modern.

    I have been present, for example, when a Catholic priest was received into union with the Orthodox Church. He was not Baptized, or Chrismated, etc. Rather, he was re-vested in the Orthodox manner. The sum – he was not “re-ordained.”

    So, that’s how those relationship work. They are not really the purview of priests. It belongs to bishops.

    On the “One True Church” language. My article The Church Is the Cross Through History, is my effort to suggest why it’s misleading to use such language. So, I would appreciate not having those words put in my mouth.

    You are more than welcome here – but you’ll, no doubt, be aware of where you are. I pray you remain well and have a blessed Lent as we all move forward towards a common Pascha this year!

    Blessings!

  35. Dee of St Herman Avatar
    Dee of St Herman

    Father,
    I appreciate you words very much on this topic.

  36. Dee of St Herman Avatar
    Dee of St Herman

    Matthew, I hope you stay on.

    Father’s words resonated with me, as I hope they do with you. Yet, with love, I speak the truth. To the best of my knowledge, I speak of what I have received as an Orthodox convert. And always, I’m open to being corrected by my spiritual elders. I’m not expecting you to agree with me. But nevertheless, please don’t expect me to accept a perspective that is not Orthodox.

    Dear brother in Christ, please remember you are indeed beloved here.

  37. Dee of St Herman Avatar
    Dee of St Herman

    Dear Michael and Merry Bauman,
    I miss your presence here. Michael, I know you have been struggling with health issues. Beloved brother, you are in my prayers and will always remain so.

  38. Simon the Gray Avatar
    Simon the Gray

    I can appreciate Owen’s perspective regarding other religions. A reasonable expectation is that if God loves his creation he would make himself equally available to all. That is a reasonable expectation in my opinion. However, I don’t know if it is realistic. I am not stating that as a fact, I am just wondering whether it is realistic to expect God to be personally available to all people everywhere and at all times. That certainly isn’t what the incarnation entails.

    For myself, I am comfortable arguing for Orthodoxy as the one true church. I’m not naive and I’m not a fundamentalist. I read the apostolic fathers and early Christian literature, especially the monastic literature, and it is rich in an Orthodox phronema. The Orthodox phronema is the phronema of the early church, which is the original church. Ergo, for me, there is no issues in thinking of Orthodoxy as the one true church. Will I turn a rock over one day and find God there in a still small voice whispering sweet nothings. Maybe. I kinda wish he wouldn’t. I have come this far without such consolations that I would rather just finish the course under the terms in which God has given it to me.

    I can follow the bread crumbs of the phronema in the earliest Christian literature right to the doors of an Orthodox parish. I just wish I wasn’t so angry sometimes…

  39. Matthew Avatar
    Matthew

    Thanks so much. I will see where God leads in all this.

    Be blessed.

  40. Fr. Stephen Avatar

    Simon,
    The continuity between present Orthodoxy and the early Church seems undeniable. Despite the strictures of the Incarnation – the gospel was preached in India in the first century – and an Orthodox Church community exists there to this day. It’s persecuted to a degree, but it abides. The gospel reached China through the “Church of the East” (Nestorians) quite early as well.

    I do not think, however, that we’re talking about whether God, in His goodness, will save non-Christians. I think that it’s clear in the Book of Acts (St. Paul’s sermon in Athens) that He will. However, that’s a long way from declaring other religions as the path of salvation. Many times, they have been a path to ruination and worse. Indeed, ruination has been preached in corners of Orthodoxy – there’s nothing human beings cannot pervert.

    For me, it’s fair to say that God works towards the salvation of all. Interestingly, I say this because I’m an Orthodox Christian. My own thoughts on Owen’s sentiment are that “to be a better Hindu” – makes no sense or has no clear meaning to me as a Christian. I simply do not and cannot know what that means. We are taught to share the gospel (not forcing or even arguing conversions). It is part of the life of the Church (its phronema). It’s also ok to be “agnostic” about what happens outside that.

  41. Fr. Stephen Avatar

    I really don’t mean to be argumentative in our comments section. I’m simply responding as I would were I a teacher in classroom (or some such construct). I’m aware of the broad range of readers and I seek to maintain an editorial “standard” of the general consensus of Orthodox thought. I hope it doesn’t offend. Everyone’s welcome to read and comment, subject to the rules of the blog. I fail to facilitate those rules subject to my own limitations.

    Forgive everyone for everything.

  42. hélène dragone Avatar
    hélène dragone

    I thank you very much, P. Stephen, for the answers you have given to the various comments.
    The joy of reading you, because often what my soul murmurs, you have the words, the expression, the images that clearly pose, with perseverance and gentle rigor, what needs to be said in truth… and that “strengthens and rejoices the heart of man” !

    (I will not say more and perhaps I have said too much because, according to St. John Climacus, “One must be a saint and a blessed to pass without harm through the praises” ! What a good exercise for this Lent !)

  43. Dee of St Herman Avatar
    Dee of St Herman

    Father,
    When I first came to this blog I had much to learn about the Orthodox Way. It served as an important pathway for learning Orthodox teachings. So much of the media in the west (and likely elsewhere) expresses opinions as if they were facts.

    Furthermore there is much in the blogsphere where some hold themselves up as the pillar of Orthodoxy without formal training within an Orthodox seminary or blessing from their bishop.

    Sometimes Father, arguments happen here. For me such have been not only instructive but helped me to understand how to engage in such conversations with love.

    You are offering a place to learn about Orthodoxy and how it is lived with the blessings of your bishop. I’m so grateful.

  44. hélène d. Avatar
    hélène d.

    Thank you Dee for this sentence, it is exactly what I forgot to write in my previous comment and which I thought of, with such inner conviction.
    I will also say a place of learning and deepening !
    Glory to God !

  45. Simon the Gray Avatar
    Simon the Gray

    Fr. Stephen.

    I don’t see how your comments relate to what I posted. Honestly, I am missing the connection. Can you, please, elaborate?

  46. Fr. Stephen Avatar

    Simon,
    I think I was just thinking out loud rather than responding. Sort of that kind of morning. Sorry – be well!

  47. hélène d. Avatar
    hélène d.

    Sorry Dee, I forgot to put the sentence I was talking about !
    “You are offering a place to learn about Orthodoxy and how it is lived with the blessings of your bishop.”

  48. Dee of St Herman Avatar
    Dee of St Herman

    Father,
    I’m considering my own behavior on this blog and don’t want to cause friction or frustration unnecessarily. I grateful for these conversations. I hope they are helpful to those seeking an understanding about Orthodoxy.

    Sometimes it seems that the intent of Roman Catholic hierarchy is to subvert the authority of the hierarchy of the Orthodox Church with teachings that the OC and RC are in communion and are ‘one body’.

    I’ve been told for example by Roman Catholics that they are permitted to receive Orthodox communion. They also are told that they have always had iconography like the Orthodox and have said the Jesus prayer like the Orthodox with the same history as it has had in the Orthodox Church. Even in my geographical area in Alaska, some RC writers would lay claim that the history of the Orthodox Church here is their history also—an attempt it seems to rewrite their history. It might be innocent, and yet there are no corrections from the RC side, that I have heard. Therefore it seems such perspectives are encouraged.

    I know such things are confusing to the inquiring or newly Orthodox. I’ve heard such questions in catechism classes. For these reasons I sincerely appreciate the firmness that you lovingly express.

    Similarly patience, kindness and love needs to be expressed when such ideas are propagated intentionally. Sometimes depending on the context I say nothing at all. Other times I will speak up. It depends on the context.

    There is the icon of Holy Silence in my icon corner. I pray before it asking for guidance on a daily basis —when to speak and when not in all spheres of my life. This also is an ascetical practice. One no doubt I often fail and for that reason I ask forgiveness.

  49. Dee of St Herman Avatar
    Dee of St Herman

    Helene,
    Thank you for your kind words!

    I appreciate also what you mean regarding how Fr Stephen expresses so well things that we murmur in our hearts but find difficult to express. I completely agree!

  50. Owen Kelly Avatar
    Owen Kelly

    Father Stephen,
    Please forgive my delayed response these last several days. Sunday night I ended up in the ER and was there till the wee hours. While I was there, I must have picked up the norovirus. So I’m just now recovering from the stomach flu. I was not ignoring your comments. I find your last several comments quite helpful. Thank you for the gentle tenor and the frankness. You practice a charitable means of disagreement, and I appreciate that. It’s good to know where people stand so that we can have honest dialogue.

    There are areas on which you seem unwilling to budge (I do not intend that pejoratively), like the idea that the Orthodox Church is the one and only Church of the Creed and that it is not a church among churches. These things were attractive to me when I entered Orthodoxy 7 years ago. They seemed, moreover, verifiable through liturgical and sacramental experience as well as apologetic reasoning. I loved the closure of the claim. Its exclusive nature made me feel safe. Plus, there were and are kindnesses shown to me and my family at our local parish which only bolstered my belief that “we have found the true faith.”

    I confess these claims have lost their hold on me. I love our parish and the people we know there. The claims of exclusivity, however, have become a wet blanket spread over all the things I love about Orthodoxy. I agree that Orthodoxy seems to preserve the richness of early church theology and practice best. And yet I can’t help being put off by it’s unwillingness to change in some areas. Should the Church ever change its teaching based on new evidence? Should the Church ever admit it was wrong? The answer in the majority of Orthodox circles seems to be no, with regard to consensual teachings, capital “t” Tradition. In principle, the Church cannot be led astray into major points of error because it is the one Body of Christ, led by the Holy Spirit. And yet I find the traditional teaching of everlasting damnation to be clearly unworthy of God. The mere possibility of such a reality maligns the character of creative Love. But the doctrine has been taught over and over again in the Church, memorialized in the prayers and hypnography as well as included in conciliar documents. I even heard it preached this past Sunday. That’s a big deal for me.

    Regarding non-Christian religions… perhaps we also need to change what we have traditionally meant by “making disciples.” I believe Teresa of Calcutta was doing this. It seems she discovered that, while all religions are clearly not the same perceived externally, there is a common experiential core within all the major religions. One finds nominal adherence of religion everywhere, persons not truly pursuing the things of the spirit, “love, joy, peace… self control.” Encouraging non-Christians to pursue transformation via the grammar of their own religious tradition is one way to understand “making disciples.” Of course, such encouragement normally has power only if the disciple-maker is living the life of the spirit. Teresa was. By her selfless life, she persuaded people of that Depth Dimension, that holiness of life not bound by a dogmatic system to which one must “convert.” The true conversion we seek and which we seek for others is the conversion to the reality written on the heart of all human beings, to become the manifestation of God in the flesh by putting aside the ego with its selfish desires. When one reads the “mystics” from all the traditions, they all agree on this, whatever external grammar their religion may propound.

    I remain a Christian because I find in it the Truth of things, and an Orthodox Christian because of its “fullness” amid the Christian traditions. Personally, however, I cannot accept the exclusive claims of Orthodoxy or Christianity. My desire is Union with Christ. I just tend to understand “Christ” from a wider vantage than what has traditionally been taught.

    Thank you for allowing me to share my thoughts. Please forgive me for any offense I’ve caused. Blessings to all.

  51. Dee of St Herman Avatar
    Dee of St Herman

    Owen,

    Some Orthodox priests refer to damnation in the way you have expressed. I’m grateful they are not in the parishes I frequent.

    Thoughts about hell or damnation:
    Saint Siluoan was told to keep his mind in hell and not despair. This is a hard saying for many yet these words are helpful to many as well.

    Father Thomas Hopko of blessed memory referred to a conversation with his bishop, describing his concern about a relative who claimed to be agnostic. The Orthodox bishop responded that perhaps Fr Thomas’ relative will be received in heaven and we (the bishop and Fr Thomas) might not. This statement of the bishop put Fr Thomas at peace. That story has stuck with me as being an example of Orthodox thinking on the subject.

  52. Owen Kelly Avatar
    Owen Kelly

    Dee,
    Thank you. I too am grateful for the outliers on this teaching. What I find troubling, however, is the mainline teaching throughout all Christian and specifically Orthodox history which asserts that everlasting hell will indeed be populated. Thank God for the aberrations.

  53. Dee of St Herman Avatar
    Dee of St Herman

    Owen,
    I hope you’re wrong that these are outliers. But I have heard some of the stuff you heard and it disturbed me too. I had a book once by such an author, it bothered me and I asked about his background. It turned out it was written before he converted to Orthodoxy without any Orthodox instruction. If it was changed after his conversion such changes were likely minimal. I put it down and didn’t pick it up again.

  54. Dee of St Herman Avatar
    Dee of St Herman

    Owen,
    One more thought and I beg correction from Fr Stephen as needed. The only hell we really know about is what we have experienced in this life. I’ve been in a fiery hell both literally and figuratively and have lasting scars that speak of this history. I was angry for a long time at the God who punish people like this. But to the best of my knowledge this is not the God of Orthodoxy. I don’t think this is Orthodox teachings. But I do know of the language you’re referring to. Sometimes it hurts because I was taught that God punishes sinners, and it seemed certain that God didn’t love me, because I was a sinner.

  55. Fr. Stephen Avatar

    Owen,
    I’m glad you’ve recovered from the Norovirus – I can’t think of a worse way to spend a few days!

    Some of what you describe is consistent with Perennialism (in some form), that I’ve suggested before seemed part of your understanding. But, as to Orthodoxy itself. I prefer not to use the language of “One, True Church” – and I referenced an article on the topic that I’ve written. So, again, it’s a case of having words put in my mouth. However, the Creed confesses that the Church is One. There is not an ecclesiology within the realm of Orthodox thought that suggests how this can be otherwise – it would be the same as saying that God is not One. But – the unity of the Church is clearly compromised – tragically so. I’ve also pointed to the measures of mercy that Orthodoxy practices with regard to those relationships. What we don’t do, however, is invent a new theology that makes everything ok. What that does, in my opinion, is make the sin of schism to no longer be a sin and a scandal – and that’s a mistake. The schisms bother me deeply – but I call them what they are – and accept the consequences. There is no need for triumphalism. The compromised state of Church’s unity is a sin – a failure of love. That Orthodoxy remains is not a triumph, but a mercy.

    I was once part of a denomination that clearly changed with the times. I did not find it salutary. I found it dishonest, frequently disingenuous, and often coercive. Orthodoxy has its problems – and always has through the centuries – nonetheless – I am glad to be where I am and to have the mercy and guidance of a wise bishop.

    As to myself, I know that I’m intransigent at certain points. One reason is because I write as a priest under authority – with the Bishop’s blessing. I don’t have a blessing to depart from Orthodox teaching. And I’m grateful for that guidance and direction.

    As to final damnation. I am agnostic about the matter. There is a very broad conversation about the topic including whether the pronouncements of the 5th Council actually declare it as dogma. Any number of saints have hinted at a mercy that overcomes even damnation. But that’s something that I could only ponder – and I ponder it in reverent silence. You could scan the over 2500 articles that I’ve written on the blog and never find me suggesting that someone would be damned beyond rescue. That would be something I simply do not know. However, I also think that declaring otherwise is something I cannot speak about with authority. What I will and can say is that God is good and that, when all is said and done, that will be the case. I’m at peace with that.

    How you deal with your own beliefs as an Orthodox Christian is between you and your confessor/priest. That’s not my job. It will consistently be the case that on the blog, I will comment/correct with the teaching of the Church in mind.

    I’m curious though as to what it means to find in Christianity the “Truth” of things. Where would you stand outside of Christianity to make such a judgement? My thought is that such a judgment is ultimately derived from the culture (modernity) where opinions are always changing to meet circumstances.

    For myself, I start with Jesus Himself. I accept that He is the Truth – but I have no measuring stick apart from Him by which to judge that. I believe that He was raised from the dead and that He is God made flesh. I believe that the Orthodox Church has faithfully maintained the faith as taught in the Scriptures. I’ve got plenty of unanswered questions – mostly about the state of my own sorry soul. As to other religions, any theories are just ways we have to give ourselves comfortable thoughts. I prefer to remain agnostic about them. I know Christ.

    May God grant you union with Christ – ever more – ever deeper. May He preserve us all!

  56. Fr. Stephen Avatar

    Dee, Owen, et al
    On the topic of hell – I tend to listen to the heart rather than the arguments. Some writers/priests/people speak easily and glibly about the damnation of souls. As St. Silouan suggested, “God could not bear it.” God did not “bear” it. He entered death to set us free. What that looks like and its complete form has not been given to us to know. We have warnings – no doubt. I tend to want to say that, after a fashion, I’ve been to hell. I seriously did not like it and worked hard to find a way out. I’ve spent a lifetime trying to help others get out. But that’s enough to know in order to live. I know its reality, and I know its escape. That calls me to preach the gospel – and every possible way.

    I am troubled when our hearts too easily accept the suffering of others. But theorizing about it does little to relieve them.

  57. Dee of St Herman Avatar
    Dee of St Herman

    Dear Father,
    Thank you for these words to Owen and me. I truly find wisdom in them.

  58. Owen Kelly Avatar
    Owen Kelly

    Father,
    I remember you said you prefer not to use the language of Orthodoxy as the “One, True Church,” so I attempted to reference how you put it earlier in this thread: “I believe the Orthodox Church to be the communion of the One Church confessed in the Creeds.” I will need to read the article you referenced. Apologies if I misrepresented your words.

    You asked about finding “the Truth of things” in Christianity and where one could stand to make such a judgment. For me, it’s been a matter of finding the Truth in Jesus first, in a deeply transformative way, and then finding that same Truth within non-Christian religions. Like you, I have no external measuring stick; it’s a matter of direct intuition.

    You wrote, “As to other religions, any theories are just ways we have to give ourselves comfortable thoughts.” I believe there is truth in what you say, but it works both ways. On more than several occasions, I have wished to simply return to a belief in the exclusivity of Christianity. It was a much more comfortable existence for me and for my family. Believing what I do makes me a theological pariah in many respects. And yet I cannot unsee what I have seen and become convinced of. Perhaps one day I will return to the exclusive view. I am open to that as well.

  59. Dee of St Herman Avatar
    Dee of St Herman

    Owen,
    Are you saying that you look for the person of Christ in other religions? In other words do you want to say something like Jesus Christ = Buddha or something similar? If so such idea isn’t what I have been taught. That there might be a type or types with Orthodox meaning in other culture histories— I’ve heard this. But it sounds as though you’re going further than the usage of types. Please forgive me I believe I’m not understanding why you would want to do this. Or perhaps I misunderstood entirely.

  60. Fr. Stephen Avatar

    Owen,
    I suspect that there is, these days, something of a “world culture” that is a sort of generalized “Westernization” of the world. Kind of like everyone likes blue jeans. Western Civilization, even the atheists, are quite Christianized, particularly in terms of a broad understanding of ethics. It’s sort of inescapable. As such, we never really encounter truly “foreign” religions. All of them have been affected by certain aspects of the West. In that sense, all religions have a “Christian” flavor within them because that’s the world we live in.

    There are, beneath all of that, some very incommensurate accounts of “truth.” There is a sense (very broad and vague) in which Western Civilization has “preached” the gospel to the world. Sadly, it has also preached a lot of other stuff as well. There’s just enough Christianity in the West to innoculate many people from the gospel.

    I’ll take mine straight up. 🙂

  61. Owen Kelly Avatar
    Owen Kelly

    Dee,
    Thanks for this question. These things are difficult to speak of, so I will attempt to be brief. The process of discovery I describe above was not something I necessarily “wanted to do.” For me, it has been a matter of further education – continuing to learn about what human beings have believed, especially regarding spiritual matters. Jesus Christ and Buddha are clearly two distinct historical figures. However – and it is here that my understanding likely differs from what you’ve been taught – I consider the terms “Christ who fills all things” (Ephesians 1:23) and “Buddha nature” to refer to the same ultimate reality.

    Some years ago, there was a public debate about whether Jews, Muslims, and Christians worship the same God. My own answer would be that if the worshiper is experiencing transformation into a more loving, selfless mode of human being, then, yes, they are worshiping the same God. Personally, when I investigate other religious traditions, I am looking for Christ. He is my reference point because he embodies the transformative universal Truth which is everywhere present and filling all things. This is so regardless of the descriptive grammar used by various human traditions to point toward the inexpressible Truth.

    As a caveat, Dee, these are my own personal views. I ask no one here to endorse them. May God grant you all good things in what you’ve been taught.

  62. Owen Kelly Avatar
    Owen Kelly

    Fr. Stephen,
    I hear what you’re saying. Maybe it’s also fair to say that no religious tradition is hermetically sealed from outside influences. The early church was influenced by Stoicism, Middle- and Neoplatonism, to a greater or lesser degree. Many Christians like to think of their faith as utterly pure. My understanding is that there is no such thing. And I’ve come to see that as a beautiful reality – even if complex and messy – under God.

  63. Dee of St Herman Avatar
    Dee of St Herman

    Owen,
    As Orthodox Christians, we are taught Christ’s words to the sheep, who asked Christ, “When did we feed you, visit you in prison, etc.?” Answering Christ’s voice is a matter of the heart—the state of the heart. Some of us don’t even know we’re responding to Christ. I believe Father Stephen also mentions this.

    But truthfully, I’m not investigating other religions. Not because I don’t care about others, not because I’m not curious about other cultures, but because my cup is full.

    This isn’t a warm fuzzy feeling. I often struggle with Christ in my passions. In that state I’m in the fires of Christ’s love. But I hang on, in love and hope.

  64. Owen Kelly Avatar
    Owen Kelly

    Sincerely, Dee , I could not be more happy to hear that. 🙂

  65. Simon the Gray Avatar
    Simon the Gray

    Owen, I have been thinking about your posts in this thread and I have been weighing your words against a quote I have long admired from Dostoevsky’s Notes from the Underground: “An intelligent man cannot become anything seriously, and it is only the fool who becomes anything.”

    I sympathize with your concerns and reservations–God knows I have had my own. It makes sense to think that exclusivity is hubris or ignorance, or both. But there is a another perspective: “It is only the fool who becomes anything.” An “intelligent man” sees any thing from a thousand points of view such that it becomes impossible to hold to any point of view. Ironically, the increase in points of view is not an in increase in perspective, but the loss of perspective. One must become a fool in order to understand any thing from within, from the inside. Otherwise, one may find themselves as an observer always on the outside looking in.

    A my priest told me one time that the truth is too big for us to decide what it is, but we can decide what to be loyal to. When I say the Orthodox Church is the True Church I say it as something I can say to my son–honest and non-dogmatic. It is something that can inspire and sustain my loyalty.

    People have this really naive idea about science. That science is about discovering the truth. Not so. A fundamental principal in the philosophy of science is the humility that truth is not the goal. It is too big to address with the tools we have. All science is based on the idea of testing theory-driven hypotheses. After that we have evidence that either is consistent with or inconsistent with theories that are not-disproven. Think about that for a second. All science is based on theory-driven hypotheses. The theories themselves are not-disproven. That doesn’t mean they are true. That means that sufficient evidence has not been found to say “That is NOT true.” And this is the truth of science when it comes to theories. We have theories that are disproven and others that are being tested where there is evidence that is consistent with or supports, but the word “proves” is for mathematicians because their work all follows qed from carefully crafted defintions.

    So, from my training in science I can agree with my priest that the question of truth is too big to decide. But, I can decide where to place my loyalty. But even that might take a strong dose of foolishness.

  66. Drewster2000 Avatar
    Drewster2000

    Fr. Stephen,

    I still flinch a bit when I see this kind of phrasing in hymns and liturgies:

    “For each will be glorified by his own deeds, or will be put to shame. But I ask and implore you all to pray without ceasing for me to Christ our God, that I may not be put into the place of torment because of my sins, but that He may appoint me to a place where there is the light of life.”

    Could you speak to this and how we can view it through lenses other than legalistic and false atonement theory? It is partly through your writing that I have come to understand that any “hell” I experience in the next life will be transformative and not for the sake of torment or “repayment” – and yet the other view seems to keep creeping back in again.

    How are we to properly hear and align ourselves with such sentiments?

  67. Fr. Stephen Avatar

    Drewster,
    I know the problem. First, it’s true that legal language or something comparable to it gets used on occasion. I treat it like the parables. I don’t expect a parable to be teaching a careful explanation of the mechanics of heaven and hell (though some people try to read them that way). In the prayer that you quoted – I appreciate the speaker recognizing that it is his own actions that endanger him (not the wrath of God). And though we may not like the language of “torment because of my sins” – it certainly describes my experience of the painful situation I bring on myself through my sins.

    For myself, I have simply grounded my thoughts in the imagery consistent with the “River of Fire” article that I’ve republished on the blog. And I work at re-interpreting other stuff when I hear it. My reasoning is simply an effort to ground everything(!) in the love of God. He is not my tormenter. But it comes slowly and with patient practice.

  68. Owen Kelly Avatar
    Owen Kelly

    Simon,
    Thank you for your words. I’ve also been thinking more about this since I wrote what I did. And my thinking and yours are very close indeed. What you’ve said resonates deeply with me.

    I tend to overthink things. I remember a time, soon after my conversion in jail, before I ever began my long journey of academic theological studies, when fellowship with Jesus was intimate and sweet. Simple. Now, everything gets analyzed and dissected with the razor blade of rational thought. I believe what you say is true. Maybe to be a Christian is much less about thinking and more about doing the work of love (e.g. Mother Teresa). More about going deep into one tradition, and not letting the question of the viability of other traditions distract us. More about being of one mind with a group of people in whom we see God and experience Him in communion. To be a fool, as you say – to live in simple, childlike faith and stop questioning everything down to the dregs.

    I’m going to be honest here. I want this but I don’t know how to get there again. I’m going to start by reading only the Old Testament during the Fast (if you knew my reading habits that’s kind of a big deal for me). And going to church more when I’m able. Thank you for these words: “…the question of truth is too big to decide. But, I can decide where to place my loyalty.” It’s funny, I heard something similar from a loyal Baptist when I was becoming convinced of the truth of Orthodoxy. It’s a strange life. Maybe this is why St Paul tells us to remain in the station we are. Because God will meet us there. I ask your prayers, brother.

  69. Fr. Stephen Avatar

    Owen,
    I appreciate the thoughts. Many things are “too big to decide.” I spent 20 years as an Episcopal priest. I knew (or studied) Orthodox theology and knew that what I was reading was what the Church had taught and believed through the centuries. But, of course, things were “complicated.” I had a wife, 4 kids, house, and I was priest of a large Church, etc. The nature of a soul is that it can use “complications” to hide from itself. Eventually, I decided I could no longer do that – and with deep agreement with my wife – we decided to leave it behind and enter Orthodoxy.

    There were other places to go. I could have gone to one of newly beginning Anglican Churches, etc. I could have become Roman Catholic. When we were discussing everything with each other, we came to the conclusion that we simply wanted to “go home.” I knew full well the brokenness that marked Orthodox history. But, I simply wanted to be in communion with the fullness of the Church.

    I had no theories about the rest of Christianity – just an understanding of where I was going. The OCA at the time, particularly in this corner of the Southeast, was a real mess. I’ll not go into the details other than to say that we walked into the mess because we believed it was God’s mess. It wasn’t about figuring everything out, etc. It was about going home and just being there. A therapist friend tells me that my personality type is deep-wired for loyalty. So, I tend to see faith as loyalty. It works.

    During my last decade of Anglicanism, I would describe myself as in a lot of “wars.” It got quite personal. There were a handful of priests and a number of laypeople whom I came to see as friends in the same foxhole with me. Some became Orthodox. Some became Catholic. Some went with the breakaway Anglicans. Mostly what I feel for them is they have sought to be loyal to Christ. I believe in their salvation (even if I’d rather have them with me now). Love is that way – “come hell or high water.”

    Hang in there.

  70. Owen Kelly Avatar
    Owen Kelly

    Father,
    Your words mean a lot. I wish I were the hard-wired loyalty type. I’m not. My wife is. She always tells our kids, “People are more important than things.” I say that now too, but my way has always been the truth-seeker: follow the truth wherever it leads, no matter the cost. I don’t know, maybe both types can go astray and both can be redeemed. I guess I am a doubting Thomas. I’ve pushed on too many doors of inquiry. And I did get some answers, but they never left me satisfied like before, when I trusted God for everything.

    Trust and loyalty will be my meditation for some time now. Thanks again. I ask your blessing.

  71. Fr. Stephen Avatar

    Owen,
    May God give you grace in all things!

  72. hélène d. Avatar
    hélène d.

    Owen, I have just read some passages from St. Sophrony of Essex, and these words remind me of you :
    “I believe in Christ, I believe Christ, I am bound by the love of Christ, I trust only in Christ. There was a time when my quest for the “authentic being” led me to Mount Athos. Now, with all the strength of my soul, I desire to be like Christ, even if only in the smallest degree, because for me, authentic, eternal, divine life is found in Him. I have stopped searching.”
    I also think of St. Silouan who received and experienced the ineffable Goodness of the Lord and the Tenderness of His heart !
    They are reliable witnesses, for me, who make me so desire to know more and more Christ our God, who is equal to the Father and who alone leads us to the Father !
    Forgive me, but I was touched by the sincerity of your testimony.

  73. Fr. Stephen Avatar

    Hélène,
    Thank you for sharing that passage. I think one of the things I most love about St. Sophrony are thoughts such as these. It is very aluring to fall in love with thoughts. It’s how the “pursuit of truth” can draw us astray, strangely. I know the character of a lie – and we should run away from such things. But “truth” too easily becomes an abstraction. It is love, above all else, that transforms, heals, and makes us whole. Only love understands anything.

    May God give us grace!

  74. hélène d. Avatar
    hélène d.

    Yes, Fr. Stephen, I smile joyfully as I read the end of your message, because I have just closed the book of St. Sophrony with these words :
    “When divine Love touches the soul, it contemplates,
    in an inexpressible trembling, the holiness of God
    – Christ –, and it burns with the desire to see all men in the light of this Love”.

    Glory to God !

  75. Owen Kelly Avatar
    Owen Kelly

    Thank you, Hélène, for sharing both of those passages. I am considering all these things.

  76. Simon Avatar
    Simon

    I have in the past thought these same thoughts about following the truth wherever it might lead regardless of the cost. On the surface, how could anyone take issue with ‘following the truth wherever it might lead’? It sounds noble in intention, humility before that which is genuinely real, and selfless. However, on reflection, I am not sure what I meant by truth. To my understanding the best definition of truth would be “that which corresponds to what is real.” That seems legit. The difficulty arises from the word “correspondence” there should be a type of one-to-one correspondence between my ideas/knowledge and what-exists-in-actuality. This is epistemology 101. The introduction of a sensing-perceiving observer that generates the mapping between knowledge and reality introduces doubt on multiple levels. For example, is reality such that it can be comprehended by the sensation-perception of the observer? If not, how inadequate are the observer faculties? Even if there is a good fit between the observer’s sensation-perception and reality, is the observer capable of generating the mapping? There’s more that can be said, and after having said it the punchline would be “When someone says “I follow the truth…” it isn’t at all clear to me what that means.” Other traditions have said similar things. There’s the Paradox of Meno where “the search for truth” is either impossible or unnecessary. The Dao De Jing begins by saying “The tao that can be practiced is not the Eternal (or, changeless) Tao. The name that can be named is not the Eternal Name.” Buddhist and Hindu concepts of Avidya (not knowing) speak to the deeply agnostic nature of these religions.

    Fr. Stephen has alludes to this previously, I think, by noting that truth as an abstraction is a non-starter.

    With Fr. Stephen’s permission I am wondering if we could explore what some of the underlying assumptions are in Owen’s “following the truth wherever it might lead.”

    I am deeply skeptical about so many things regarding my own perception and my own faculties. My loyalty to Orthodoxy stems from my loyalty to a memory. The memory of when I first came into the Church. If I could do it all over again I would never allowed the habit of challenging, seeking, and reducing to ruin that original newness. I sometimes wonder if it wasn’t inevitable.

  77. Fr. Stephen Avatar

    Simon,
    It seems that St. John the Evangelist was very aware of these questions. In Jn 14, Christ, speaking to Thomas says, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. If you had known me, you would have known my Father also. From now on you do know him and have seen him.” (John 14:6–7)

    In Chapter 18, speaking to Pontius Pilate, Christ says, “For this purpose I was born and for this purpose I have come into the world—to bear witness to the truth. Everyone who is of the truth listens to my voice.” (John 18:37)

    And, of course, Pilate famously says, “And what is truth?”

    It is a particular Johannine concept. The “truth” is not an abstract concept, but the person of Jesus Christ, who alone reveals the Father. We could paraphrase it and say, “I am Reality.” That is, everything is relative to Jesus Christ.

    Even if we extend the question to other religions or philosophies, a Christian (should be) asking, “Does this in any way relate to Jesus Christ?” or “How does this relate to Jesus Christ?” I’m willing to admit (as did CS Lewis) that the myths that preceded Christianity were “good dreams sent to us to prepare us for the coming of Christ.”

    I would go further (and make it a matter of the heart) and say that it’s quite possible that someone, practicing something other than Christianity might find within that practice things that are preparing their heart for Christ (which they might not see until all things are revealed on the Day of Judgement – let the reader understand).

    But, what we say, as Christians, is that, when everything is said and done, reality (Reality) is Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. There are no alternative versions – no multi-gods – whatever.

    Will non-Christians be saved? Yes and No. Yes, people from non-Christian backgrounds may indeed be saved (Acts. 17:22-27). But, if you will, they will be saved “as Christians,” in that it is Christ alone who saves – their salvation will be in Him, through Him, and by Him. Salvation is union with Jesus Christ.

    When everything is said and done – there will only be Reality, or Truth. And “God will be all in all” (1Cor. 15).

    But – I believe the Christian life is a journey to the Truth – but not as a set of propositions, per se. It is union with Christ. What I would say of Orthodoxy, is that it is the faithful communion with Christ that has existed from the beginning.

    St. Augustine is credited with saying, “We can say where the Church is, but we cannot say where it is not.” What we don’t have in Orthodoxy is some sort of pronouncement about everything that is not orthodoxy. We are, to a certain extent, agnostic about such questions. I can tell someone (and assist them) to enter into union with the Orthodox Church. But there’s no instructions for what to say other than that. Historically, Orthodoxy has always been quite generous in making that union possible.

  78. Kenneth Avatar
    Kenneth

    Fr. Stephen, thank you for these helpful and clarifying thoughts. There is so much confusion about this issue in modern times, even among Christians. The belief that “it is Christ alone who saves” can seem offensive to many people, so it can be hard to know how to talk about this. Your words help clarify and are appreciated. Glory to God.

  79. Joshua Wherley Avatar
    Joshua Wherley

    My only issue with what is written above is: “To be forgiven is to be made whole, beginning with our communion with God.”

    I wish Fr Stephen would expand on that. What exactly does it mean to be “made whole”? I understand this will likely fall under the “mystery” category, but some kind of explanation would be helpful. As I completed the article I was hoping that this idea would be revisited, but it seems like he had moved on.

  80. Fr. Stephen Avatar

    Joshua,
    I particularly had in mind the story of the paralytic (Matthew 9:2–8). There we see that his sins are forgiven. When people question that action, Christ says: “For which is easier, to say, ‘Your sins are forgiven,’ or to say, ‘Rise and walk’? But that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins”—he then said to the paralytic—“Rise, pick up your bed and go home.” It’s a passage that makes it clear that the forgiveness of sins is not a “legal” arrangement (the mere removal of guilt). Rather, it is a “making whole.” In this case, his “making whole” included the healing of his paralysis.

    For each of us, being made whole is ultimately revealed in the resurrection – whole, complete, never to die again, transfigured, glorified, etc. It begins in this life with an inner transformation – and works its way outwards. There’s certainly a “mystery” or hiddenness to that outworking. It is made complete in the resurrection.

    Good question. Feel free to ask more or to push deeper in asking. I don’t mind.

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