Beyond Narcissism – To Behold the Face of God

Perhaps the most difficult personalities encountered in anyone’s life are those that can clinically be labeled “narcissistic.” It refers to a very describable disorder that can be diagnosed but treated only with difficulty. The narcissist is critically handicapped when it comes to recognizing and respecting boundaries. They want to run your life (and will). Everything in the world revolves around them simply because their own boundaries are so non-existent. Being in relationship with a narcissist can often be toxic. They often make us feel that the problem belongs with us, not them. We can begin to question our own sanity and judgment. There are popular articles on the topic that I think are very helpful to those engaged in such situations. There are also spiritual questions that can be very problematic.

At the core of a narcissistic disorder is shame – overwhelming shame. The source can vary greatly but is generally found early in childhood. It might even have a bio-neurological basis. Shame is said to be the most unbearable emotion. It is how we feel about ourselves and can be excruciating in its pain. For the narcissist the pain of shame is truly unbearable – so they refuse to acknowledge it.

I have engaged narcissists from time to time in a pastoral setting. I recall one case in which the person involved refused to accept a particularly factual description of a situation to be the case. The efforts to make me agree with them were endless, including numerous office visits, letters, and phone calls day and night. They could not be wrong.

Strangely, the ability to bear shame is essential in the experience of God. God does not try to shame us or make us feel bad about ourselves. Shame is simply an objective reality in His presence. Hence, Isaiah’s description:

In the year that King Uzziah died, I saw the Lord sitting on a throne, high and lifted up, and the train of His robe filled the temple. Above it stood seraphim; each one had six wings: with two he covered his face, with two he covered his feet, and with two he flew. And one cried to another and said: “Holy, holy, holy is the LORD of hosts; The whole earth is full of His glory!” And the posts of the door were shaken by the voice of him who cried out, and the house was filled with smoke.

So I said: “Woe is me, for I am undone! Because I am a man of unclean lips, And I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips; For my eyes have seen the King, The LORD of hosts.” (Isa. 6:1-5)

Beholding God in His glory, Isaiah also sees himself in the truth of his own being. He experiences a sort of revulsion that should not be understated. Other encounters with God in Scripture describe people falling on their face, unable to look at the wonder before them. This hiding is an inherent part of the experience of shame. There are no excuses to be offered.

To this must be contrasted the description of our salvation as “beholding Him face to face.” This is an image of total transformation, in which our likeness to God is so complete that we are able to see Him “without shame, and with a good defense before His dread judgment seat.” The journey from Isaiah’s experience to this final blessing is the journey of salvation.

However, the journey to beholding Christ face to face can only begin at the point of Isaiah’s experience of shame. As an old man in A.A. once said, “The only thing you need to know about God is that you’re not Him.” It is also that which we need to know about everyone else in our life. The boundaries that rightly separate us from one another are properly marked with a healthy shame, an instinct that says, “You’re out of line and have crossed a boundary that should not be crossed.” Love requires such a recognition and respect. There can be no freedom in the coercion and compulsion that marks the boundary-lessness of the active narcissist. You cannot love me until you understand that my life is not yours and does not exist to make your life complete.

“Crossing the line” with another person should bring us up short, with a small nudge of shame (which we generally call “embarrassment”). It should provoke a small apology (or large, depending). It is a matter of respect and is utterly necessary in the life of love. We should not excuse ourselves, “Oh! She knows I don’t mean it!” These trespasses are small injuries. Some endure such injuries on a regular basis and become so accustomed to them that they simply expect them. But their souls are required to shrink in such circumstances, as they draw back from the pain of frequent injury.

I once read a book that described a certain form of narcissism as the near perfect embodiment of evil. If so, the person suffering from such should be treated as though they were possessed. For the pain inside that world is even greater than the pain outside. Imagine a life without awe or wonder, without love for the other, with no sense of anyone other than yourself. It is a form of psychological hell.

I once pondered the question of how such a person could be saved (I had a pastoral possibility confronting me). I could not think of a means of repentance that such a personality could undertake. It was, for me, one of life’s unsolvable mysteries, perhaps a salvation that can happen within the depths of a soul trapped within the confines of its own endless shame. I have seen many “hate” pieces written about narcissists. They are probably the most poisonous relationships ever encountered. It is a test of compassion, I think, to put oneself in their shoes and to imagine the agony of such an existence.

It is an act of true compassion to pray earnestly for their salvation and for our own deliverance from our refusals to love. It is also a reminder that, despite the toxic nature of some shame, there is a core of healthy shame that is utterly necessary to our existence as creatures and our ability to love. It reveals to us both what we are and what we are not. Both are equally necessary.

 

About Fr. Stephen Freeman

Fr. Stephen is a retired Archpriest of the Orthodox Church in America. He is also author of Everywhere Present: Christianity in a One-Storey Universe, and Face to Face: Knowing God Beyond Our Shame, as well as the Glory to God podcast series on Ancient Faith Radio.



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236 responses to “Beyond Narcissism – To Behold the Face of God”

  1. Dan Avatar
    Dan

    Hey I wanted to come back and post again after reading another article about “narcissism.” Hope you don’t mind me putting a link here, but I’d love to hear your feedback about what Dr. Caroline Leaf says in her article. She’s a believer and a neuroscientist. I kind of take the same view she does, as you can see in my original post in January. That was why I originally said that I just don’t think God labels people. He listens to their heart, because He created us all for love. That is always our default and original design. Sometimes we just need to be reminded of who He made us to be and remove the veil of lies. Anyway, enough with the words. 😀

    https://drleaf.com/blog/is-narcissism-a-disorder/

  2. Fr. Stephen Freeman Avatar

    Dan,
    I appreciate the effort. I suspect Dr. Leaf has never lived in a relationship with a true narcissist. I’m glad if there is a therapeutic route that is of use to them. Primarily, over the course of 40 years of ministry, I’ve seen a train of destroyed lives in the wake of narcissistic disorders. People need boundaries, need protection, and deep healing from the toxic exposures they endure. May God grant healing to all. However, I found the linked article to be naive in the extreme and quite out of keeping with clinical material in the mainstream.

  3. narcissist's wife Avatar
    narcissist’s wife

    Thank you so much, Father Stephen. The linked article had me spiraling into self-doubt again, which is something that us victims of gaslighting struggle with, even years after the abuse is over. (Oh, of course I was wrong! I’ll go buy this book and it will finally fix what my narcissist said was wrong with me.) When you’ve had your very perception of reality challenged, over and over for years, it’s very fragile. That’s something that people who call every selfish egomaniac they meet a narcissist just don’t understand.

  4. Fr. Stephen Freeman Avatar

    Narcissist’s wife,
    That very thing (the gaslighting) made me think about not publishing the comment and link. But I did, with my own comment and warning. Frankly, I was aghast at the ignorance of the therapist in the article.

  5. Esmee La Fleur Avatar
    Esmee La Fleur

    Nothing that the author of that article said resonated with my own experience. I have been in relationships with more than one narcissist and none of them have ever been willing to acknowledge that they are ill and none of them have taken any steps to actually change their behavior, in spite of the long line of broken relationships they have left in their wake. I could listen to them all day and given them my loving attention, but none of that ever helped them. The only solution for me was to end all contact with these individuals. It’s a sad reality. I still love them and pray for them.

  6. Evangelia Avatar
    Evangelia

    Dear father Stephen,

    I hope this message finds you and everyone well. I come back to this article every now and again to reread what you have written and what others have posted. Your written word on this subject has had a profound effect on me because very few have approached this matter from the heart as you have.

    Something came up awhile ago in a conversation I was having discussing the topic of NPD with a Psychiatrist who also happens to be an orthodox priest. It helps that we have all this access to scientific information and knowledge but sometimes when we try to understand things from a logical and secular perspective it still leaves us spiritually hungry.

    So in short, the conversation with the psychiatrist/priest was going along the lines of me asking the question, “do people who suffer with Npd have any control or awareness over their disorder? and is this in fact a real disorder or a character flaw?”
    His response was to assure me that yes these disorders are very real, however the way someone living with NPD may project outwardly isn’t necessarily an indication that they are in control or even aware of this themselves.

    Furthermore, he encouraged me not to look at things externally, but rather with spiritual eyes. Yes, we may see the vile behavior that is projected outwardly: callousness and lack of empathy. That person may not have an outward control over that, their awareness of their behavior may only be heightened from the feedback that they receive from others.
    The priest continued,”That is what our naked eye sees, but God looks deeper and into the heart. We cannot know what is in the heart of every person. Only God knows this, and that’s why we should never judge someone based on outward actions”

    I truly believe with all my heart that God would not abandon any of his children. Sometimes we do not understand the whys and how’s. I have faith that he knows what he’s doing and there is a reason for everything, we will all find out in the next life.

    I am grateful for posts like yours father Stephen, which continue to provide us with spiritual nourishment in a world where we are greatly lacking in such things. It is only when we speak from our hearts that we are able to touch another’s heart. Thankyou, and I will continue to try and see things with spiritual eyes. Please include me in your prayers, and forgive me if I rambled.

    Evangelia

  7. Michael Avatar
    Michael

    Evangelia, your comments on this page have been a huge blessing to me and many others.

    My mother has an extreme case of NPD and the results have been devastating. The damage to my father, wife, and children have been beyond words. I’m now in my early 40’s and have finally learned how to set firm boundaries while also forgiving and loving her (as Christ loves me).

    We must remember that this is a spiritual battle.

    Ephesians 6:12

    For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

    Yes, we must set boundaries and often distance ourselves from the toxic abuse. Yet, we must never loose hope. We must pray that the demonic powers influencing those who suffer with NPD would be broken in the name of Jesus. I know for certain healing can occur and my wife can testify since I myself had the traits of NPD for 10 + and no longer show any indication. This occurred as a powerful work of the Holy Spirit which I am forever grateful for. What is impossible for man is not impossible for God! All things are possible for those who believe.

  8. Ruth Natello Avatar
    Ruth Natello

    I came across this discussion of NPD while looking for answers to the same questions as so many here. I have found the comments so comforting, as it is always encouraging when you realize you are not alone, and others share the same painful experiences in life. In this way we can fulfill the command to “Bear one another’s burdens”. I guess the main question on my mind is, “After someone has what appears to be a genuine conversion to Christ, but gradually reverts back to their former NPD, but now with a fully self-righteous bent. And subsequently completely rejects their entire family for not ‘believing’ exactly as they do, and is more cruel and abusive than before; what is the true state of that person’s spiritual condition?”

  9. Fr. Stephen Freeman Avatar

    Ruth,
    I certainly couldn’t say without personal experience of the situation.

  10. Evangelia Avatar
    Evangelia

    Dear Ruth,
    first off
    *warm hug*

    I believe their spiritual state to be in utter turmoil and it is good discernment I believe not to give too much weight to their words or actions. I speak from experience when I say this. My father has on many occasions treated others with disdain and neglect and abuse and has apologized after a lengthy period after the fact, usually in deep sorrow, I have heard the words “my soul is being fought” come out of his mouth. He has a spiritual father in Mount Athos. Conveniently so, he hasn’t been to mount Athos for several years because he has classically «found fault” with his spiritual father. This is absurd but as we all know this is how it rolls with NPD. The sooner you realize they are not in full control over their will, the easier it will be to understand. Lots and lots of prayer. For them and for God to enlighten you.

  11. Af Avatar
    Af

    This comment is very personal to my experience, but I have been seeking understanding on this topic in a Chrisitan context for a long time. This is one of the first places I’ve seen the church write about it openly. I appreciate the history and wisdom that the Orthodox church upholds. So, it was refreshing to hear a different perspective, separate from a clinical standpoint.

    I recently am recovering from the aftermath of a very toxic marriage with my husband who has exhibited every extreme behavior of an NPD. I did not understand or know about this personality disorder before my marriage. I’m in a safe and stable place separated from him now. In the course of the last two years, my husband used what he could to try and control the situation, including religion. Since our forced separation, he has converted to Orthodoxy. He’s used the church to further isolate and perpetuate the very false and very toxic reality he’s created. I’m seeking counseling and am finally in a place where I can pray for him. I struggle knowing he hides behind pretense and wrestle with whether or not to inform his priest. His priest was giving him recommendations on how to address his “unsubmissive” wife before ever having a conversation with me or even with both of us present. The orthodox community is small in this area and I haven’t known where to share my thoughts or if it’s even appropriate.

    I continue to seek healing, prayer, healthy community, and distance from my husband until he agrees to return to counseling. I’d be curious, if you’re comfortable weighing in, being a leader in the Orthodoxy faith what you would say about reaching out to my husband’s priest.

    Thank you ahead of time for opening up the conversation on this topic with your article. I also appreciate you staying connected in the comments since it’s publication.

    -Af

  12. Gordon Avatar
    Gordon

    Fr. Stephen Freeman,
    Thank you for sharing words of love and hope. I have recently come to the revelation, but not medically diagnosed, that I have functioned as a narcissist for many years. I believe that Christ has saved me from an eternal torment, putting me on the path of life and the scales have been removed from my eyes. All the reading I have done does not provide much hope for a narcissist actually changing away from this mental disorder, ever.
    Your comments are are so accurate about the torment that seems never ending inside the narcissist. The delusion I now sense within is causing me to question everything I think, wants, sense, say, or do; quite literally not trusting myself since the ability to manipulate myself and others is such an ingrained insidious habit. Those habits show up daily and when I recognize how pervasive they are I begin to question the hope that I can actually be different. This is a torment in itself; but, this is so much better than the ignorance in which I abused so many people.
    I appreciate all those who commented that have experienced healing from NPD. I believe in the hope I have in Christ and that he will to continue to reveal to me my self absorbed nature, reconcile me through sanctification, and bring healing to those I have hurt.

  13. Chas Avatar
    Chas

    Dear Lord, you have nailed this one.
    I was raised by a narcissistic father. It was, and remains hell on earth.
    Avoidance is the only way for a normal human to retain sanity. There is no reasoning with a true narcissist. It seems beyond sick, it seems demonic. I’ve never seen anything like it.

  14. Rose M Hunter Avatar
    Rose M Hunter

    Sadly so true.only God can heal those damaged brains! I’ve prayed for the one I wS with for ten years now.

  15. Christian Cate Avatar
    Christian Cate

    Lord, Have Mercy!

    This disorder is a severe danger for me personally. I hope the way to stay out of it is to open the door of my heart to Jesus and to others and through the Sacraments, including Confession and true repentance.

    Please pray for me, a sinner.

    Reader Columba

  16. Jenna, Bs in Psychology Avatar
    Jenna, Bs in Psychology

    Another important personality disorder nobody has mentioned is Borderline Personality Disorder (BPD). Many people with nonpsychotic bipolar, cptsd/ptsd, and others are being currently misdiagnosed as BPD.

    Borderline personality lies on the pathological end of the narcissism spectrum, is considered more severe than NPD and shares more in common with antisocial personality disorder.

    Borderlines are more seductive, they’re usually more emotionally intense which bolsters sensuality and attractiveness. Howecer, they’re every bit as narcissistic as the rest of those within the Cluster B. Borderlines tend to be vindictive and petty. Try divorcing one. They want full custody, no compromises. Numerous studies have shown borderline personalities are common domestic violence perpetrators, including parental alienation.

  17. Troy Avatar
    Troy

    I’m 4 months out of such a relationship with a younger woman is upon first glance is as beautiful as beauty can be.

    Over the past four months I have read everything I can find …. countless articles, books, forums, etc….

    What I know to be true now, has left me scarred … and what I have wrestled with the most lately is how utterly sad it is for this disorder to have taken her from the world … from me, from God, And from herself …. If I knew there was anyway possible to help her … to let her feel the exposure and beauty of love, I would do anything to help her …. I’ve never felt such helplessness and sadness …. for her… When I first met her I thought she was broken and needed a friend more than anything …. and now to know the brokenness cannot be fixed hurts …

    The poison of the disorder is so sad and to think she will never know or understand the truth makes it even more difficult to understand how someone with an entire life ahead of her could have been broken so badly ….

    I don’t even know what to think … I’m just sad …. I am seldom without words, and all I am filled with is a silent scream ….

    Cluster B is a horrible infliction …

  18. Danielle Woods Avatar
    Danielle Woods

    Fr. Stephen,
    I married my husband 20 years ago. I am not a psychologist so I am in no position to diagnose him with this particular condition. But I have been reading alot about the subject. At first our relationship was overflowing in love and attention like most. But very quickly some really hurtful, mean things started happening. Like just a night and day behavior. He always made little of what was done to me claiming it was me…I was to sensitive.
    This progressed as time went on to more and more really heinous behavior. Then the one time enamored man who thought I was perfect just told me daily how stupid, worthless, and weak I was. Not that he couldn’t turn back into the charming man I once knew all of a sudden. But as soon as I was feeling good and like we were going to a good place bam the the heinous behavior would return. Eventually I got very angry and started to go down the destroy road with him, I could no longer take it. I have filed and left….but again I moved out. I started praying again, forgiving him and myself. And I reached out to do as God asks us to do and ask for his forgiveness in any part I played. And again I feel like I am on a roller coaster. He claims he needs time, and I would agree we both do. But I have always been committed to a real fix. I suggested counseling for many years he would not go. I suggested alchohal recovery programs for him I told him I would be with him and help him I was committed to our family and a real fix. Of course for years I was told I earned nothing working several jobs, that without him I was nothing. And now of course I get half of what he felt was all his. He is beyond livid. But at the same time he is in and out…and one day loves me and the next no contact. its taken a toll on me once more. I still pray for him and our family everyday. But the pain is now worse than what it was before I left. Am I married to a narcassist? Or is he just an alchoholic? I am so confused I don’t know whether or not to itch my watch or wind my rear. And help greatly appreciated.

  19. David Waite Avatar
    David Waite

    Danielle Woods – I am a recovering alcoholic and the father of a recovering alcoholic and drug addict. On the basis of my many years of struggle with these problems, I would suggest that you focus on the alcohol and drug use. Addiction makes the user a narcissist, at least to some degree. Good treatment of alcohol and drug abuse problems always includes some form of therapy (often group therapy) that treats the problem with narcissism, as well as treatment for the alcohol and drug abuse.

    But here is the most important point: you cannot treat your husband. He needs support groups like AA and, in many cases, professional help to recover. And he must get this help on his own. I would have gone to AA sooner than I did, but for people telling me to go. My alcoholism made me such a narcissist that I rejected any and all offers of help and advice. I did not seek help until I finally hit bottom and sought it on my own. That is the way it is with alcoholics.

    What you can do – and I hope and pray that you will! – is get help for yourself. Find an Al-Anon group near you (I am sure there is one!) and attend at least three meetings. There you will find people facing the same problems you are facing. They will not criticize you. They will welcome you and listen to your story. They will also share their own stories. By sharing experience, strength and hope, we can begin to find some serenity in the midst of the hells we live in.

    I do not think our marriage would have survived our son’s alcoholism and drug addiction if my wife and I had not sought help from Al-Anon.

    There is hope for you, Danielle.

    You will be in my prayers. I will pray especially that you find the help you need. Google Al Anon. Help is just one phone call away.

  20. Regina Avatar

    I have an ex that is a narcissist. We are not together and have a child. It has been a nightmare dealing with him. He treats me terribly and refuses to give back my daughter’s clothes and shoes when I pick her up. He wants control. This is just the tip of the ice berg. How can I work on not hating him so much? Praying doe this person is hard for me. How do I get closer to God ti stop hating him so much?

  21. Dee of St Hermans Avatar
    Dee of St Hermans

    Regina from my own experience I know how hard it is to stop hating someone who intentionally and repeatedly attempts to harm or hurt or infuriate you.

    One thing I kept in mind at the time was that holding hatred in my heart was self destructive and perpetuated the harm the other person intended. I knew I wanted to stop participating within that vortex of hatred, to become less susceptible to their influence. To break free of them was to ‘keep my peace’ in the circumstances in which they would intend to take that from me.

    I also highly recommend counseling. Attempting to separate the person from the mud of their actions is a hard thing to do.

    Remember God loves you always. Gently return your thoughts to Christ when you begin to slip into thinking of the bad behavior of this person. Separation is key. But that includes separation from the passions. Love is not ‘like’. Love is hard. But it is possible to love a person and have compassion for a person whom you do not like.

    For me it took a while, years actually, to be able to say this. Nevertheless the wounds remain. These too have helped me to thank God for all things.

    May God bless you with His peace.

  22. Rose M Hunter Avatar
    Rose M Hunter

    I actually asked God to give me his heart for my first husband after he told me he was having an affair, had never loved me (though he told me for 37 years he did) and wanted out of our marriage. I awoke at 2:00 a.;m.with my heart exploding out of my chest with compassionate love, and went into the other bedroom and told my then husband how very deeply I did love him and wanted to work on reconciliation. Well, he does have NPD, which I didn’t even hear of until two years later, so all I said fell on deaf ears. But god has blessed me tremendously even though I faced five years and three attempts by my ex to “annul:” our marriage through the Catholic Church, though neither of us was Catholic (the woman he married evidently only nominally is). His first two tries failed, and he pushed it up to the ArchDiocese of Santa Fe, but then withdrew after months. Ironically, now my Advocate in the Diocese of Phoenix and another woman who worked in the Tribunal office are good friends of mine. I prayed for the unborn grandson of the Tribunal worker, after she told me an ultrasound revealed large dark spots on the baby’s brain and amniocentesis revealed he would have Dandy Walker Syndrome. I prayed for the baby and her daughter, and the boy was born with only slight learning disabilities and is now a healthy seven-year-old! Praise Jesus! Jesus brought a miracle out of what Satan intended for evil! I still pray for deliverance, cleansing, healing and awakening for my ex, because I don’t want to see the enemy of his soul win this; I long to see Jesus VICTORIOUS in that man yet. Four years ago God brought me together with a truly God-fearing, Jesus-loving, servant-hearted man, and we’re so grateful God connected us by His hand. We share faith and values in common. Thanks be to God Almighty for His marvelous mercies to me!

  23. Vincent Williams Avatar
    Vincent Williams

    We need some healed Narcs. My ex for 10 years was a Narc; I hated her now I pity her so much…she kind of warned me in her Narcy way right from the start that she would destroy my life; she did but now I’m trying to forgive and I pray for her healing.

  24. G Avatar

    I would see these emails come every week or so and didn’t quite understand or remembered I, apparently, signed up for it. Lol. Today, I opened and really read through some of the posts. It brought tears and joy to me. Tears because, I have been still dealing with the fact that my husband and I are no longer together and the trauma I not only endured from him, but his family. They all seem to be kinda sick. I don’t say this in a mean or terrible way. I say this with great sadness. I did not understand what I was in, but the Lord came to my rescue and let me know what I was dealing with. I never encountered anybody like this in my life and the relationship caused me a lot of pain, stress and heartbreak. Had I not had a military mind and the mind of Christ, I believe I would have been a mental case behind this evil.
    I don’t understand why I still have love for him. I was traumatized by him and his family. Our divorce is almost final. I am still grieving a little. I can’t believe what I have just been through. I am forever grateful, God has brought me out. I am prayerful for everyone.

  25. Phoebe Alexandra Avatar
    Phoebe Alexandra

    Thank you so much for your beautiful thoughts on the narcissist. I have come to the same conclusion, that prayer is the only way we can help a person afflicted with this condition. I envision Jesus journeying down into this person’s heart and suturing up the break with His light.

  26. Mella Thomas Avatar
    Mella Thomas

    Thanks so much for this article, Father Freeman, and for the comments.
    I agree we need some healed Narcs. I found this article originally using terms I don’t remember in an internet search related to narcissism and NPD. I don’t have NPD, exactly, but I do have some disturbances similar to it and have been in and out of therapy for more than 50 years, with no good results. At least as far as the narcissism goes. Perhaps if and when some of us get “better” then we can pass along some pointers to others. For now, I continue my stumbling in the dark.
    I was really struck by the quotation from Isaiah. It captures, or points to, something very important I think.
    Again, many thanks for the article.

  27. Jason Lough Avatar
    Jason Lough

    Asking for prayer for a loved one “Rebecca”. I find myself looking for answers when I’m losing faith. Though it only takes one word to change everything. Thank you for the reminder to keep praying no matter what. Praying for someone with this sickness or even spirit is tiresome. It’s as if Jesus keeps sending those with this spirit in my direction and I don’t know why? Could it be my willingness to pray?

  28. Dee of St Hermans Avatar
    Dee of St Hermans

    Jason,
    You have my prayers. I’ve had a a similar situation that repeated with different people. It may be for evoking your prayers as we should always pray for one another. In my situation the person became an interloper following me to another parish and to my workplace and office. I’ve been praying for them for several years.

    This has also evoked reflection in my own heart to ask myself what passions do I relentlessly pursue?

    May God Grant you His grace and strength.

    And if it is His will, relief.

  29. Dee of St Hermans Avatar
    Dee of St Hermans

    And you might consider discussing these circumstances with your parish priest for solace for your heart.

    Blessings dear brother.

  30. Hillary clark Avatar
    Hillary clark

    Thank you Father Freeman. I am in the midst of a discard from a man who suffers at the hands of this incredibly overwhelming shame and in other circles would be known as a malignant narcissist, rare, I know, but I am more sure of this than most things, especially now, while I simultaneously recover from the abuse and continue to endure it to a much lesser degree. The description you gave above about trying to convince the person of a factual occurrence is a daily, sometimes hourly occurrence with this one. Incredibly, and I will acknowledge my time with him has been short, about 5 months, this time of my life (the past week or so) has revealed to me incredible moments of clarity and peace of which I’ve never felt before, even in the most love-filled, beautiful moments. I believe this article has led me to why. I’ve been saying to my sister for a while that this time felt so existential and I couldn’t pinpoint why, other than I know evil now, something I was firm I didn’t believe in before, as I wanted to believe that there was the capacity for love and light in every being. But this article made me realize evil is the absence of love and light, which makes sense to me and still fits with my original naive view. I hope I’m being completely honest when I say that i am trying to see and imagine his pain, and that is where this incredible sadness comes in. Because the opposite of those moments are the peaceful ones I mentioned above that derive from my knowledge of love. Gods love is our love. And it is absent of ego, of pettiness and worldly comforts, absent of malice and hate. And I have that, but he doesn’t, and that both crushes me and simultaneously reinforces how blessed I am. That a being must endure that kind of internal pain such that it must explode out of them in ways that can create evil where there was none before is incredibly humbling and terrifying. Thank you again for this beautifully written piece. I continue to try and instill in this person the power of love and I know I am risking my life to do so, and I hope I can get away soon as I know that it will not be me that can wrestle a power that strong.

  31. AN Avatar
    AN

    Fr. , with regards to a toxic narcassist, that cannot be saved. If they take their own life according to the church they will not life they will not be saved.
    What is the point of living?

  32. Fr. Stephen Freeman Avatar

    AN,
    I do not say that a narcissist cannot be saved, in the sense of “salvation.” Indeed, I would assume that a narcissistic personality disorder is not exactly someone’s fault – it is more like a handicap. However it is very difficult to treat.

    Salvation belongs to God. I trust in His goodness. In Him, all things are possible.

  33. Sonya Johnson Avatar
    Sonya Johnson

    Hello, Father Stephen. I write from the point of view of someone who loves (loved?) one of these people deeply and made a life with him. I did not know about narcissism back then and was constantly confused by what I saw, what I was experiencing. I would like to share some thoughts with you in the hope that you will help others.
    I was aware of the great darkness my husband had inside but I also believed he had great potential. And I believed God loved him because God loves all his children (I still believe that). I experienced the boundary-less nature of my beloved, how important it was to him that I give him all my time, my energy, and believe what he believed. I gave him everything I could because it was so important to him. It was actually not hard for me, and I believe for many Christians, to love the hard to love because our love flows from the Source and there is so much of it because the Source is boundless. So I continued to love even though I was the target of really terrible things, “trespasses” as you call them, both small and great. And they came in such great amounts that I was always off balance, always struggling to prove my “worthiness,” my love.
    Narcissists learn from a young age to protect their ego from shame by batting away all shame. They want power and control, admiration, affection, adoration. These things are food for them. They need it like the rest of us need air. While we might like those things, we don’t exactly need them because we depend on the knowledge that God has affection for us (He loves us), and we feel moved to adore Him. So adoration, for us, is outward looking: we are in constant communication with God. He loves us, we adore Him. He gives us everything we have, including health, we try to give back by serving Him.
    There is another thing that narcissist need, another kind of “food”: putting others down. Not everyone, just certain targets. Normal people don’t need or want to do this at all. Perhaps you have never been the target of that. I have, and I couldn’t understand it, therefore I didn’t exactly see it. Hurting others, putting them down, elevates narcissists somehow in their minds. A true Christian doesn’t mind taking the lower position. Jesus washed others’ feet, after all. I couldn’t understand why my husband wanted, needed to do this to me, but I accepted it. It wasn’t completely because I was self-less; it was just easier that way. Trying to do anything different and an avalanche of punishment was unleashed.
    What I didn’t realize was that God did not want the life for me that I had accepted. He did not want me to serve this dark soul. He wanted me to serve Him. So at some point He took me completely, definitively out of that life. On my own, I never would have left. I would have continued to keep trying, partly because it was all I knew after twenty years of marriage.
    My being set free was quite unusual. I believe that there are many, many people who struggle in marriages with dark individuals. They get broken down in them. Narcissists are 3% of the population and they like to get married, also they target the most well-meaning, trusting among us. I am writing this because I believe some will come to you looking for help and guidance.
    There were some things I could not give my husband. When he became an atheist, for example, I could not go there with him, and that made him angry. Of all the many things made him angry, that was one of the worst: that I could believe and he could not. I thought that my example could help him find the Way. No. It could not. It doesn’t work that way with narcissists.
    What I believe now is that God does not want us to make lives with those who have chosen this path of refusing all shame/pinning their shame on others (projection so they don’t have to feel it). Yes, they have great potential. But they will never achieve their potential because they are focused not on developing themselves, but on dominating others and twisting the truth into some alternate reality that suits them. God wants us to motor around these people. They trounce all of our boundaries; we are the ones who need to put boundaries up against them. High walls, entire Force Fields of boundaries. Shields up.
    Narcissists can be as sweet as candy when they have to be. And to most people, they look fine because they wear social masks. We need to hold them to the standard of being Decent. It starts with those small transgressions that you mentioned but it goes much, much further than that. As Christians, we want to forgive and forget. Every day, every hour is a new slate and who are we to judge? But this letting them go, letting things slide, only allows narcissists to get people to marry them, have children with them, not divorce them, gets people to sign contracts with them, lend them money, work for them, on and on. We need to hold narcissists ACCOUNTABLE because they are the liars and the cheaters of the world. And when a person tries to divorce one, they often go berserk in the court system.
    I now write about my experiences and I am read by 10,000 people a day. You can read my writing, Father, I write under my own name (Sonya Johnson) on a platform called “Quora”. I write about all kinds of things, not only narcissism. Some of my pieces are silly, gently humorous, most of them are serious. And it is all for the glory of Him. So many things came together to allow me to do this: financial independence (from my parents, not my ex), the ability to write, and the desire to do so. What a wondrous, wondrous God we have. I don’t know how long I will write, Father. It will be until the Lord shows me He has something else for me to do. And sadly, I do not miss my ex-husband. Or perhaps it’s not sad at all: perhaps that is another gift our Father has given me.
    Feed His sheep, Father. Show them the way. Help protect His sheep.
    Respectfully Yours, Sonya

  34. Agata Avatar
    Agata

    Dearest Sonya,
    You described the exact story of my life. You are my twin sister in this. May God grant you strenght and wisdom to recover and live a new life. It is beautiful with God.
    Agata

  35. Aurea Avatar
    Aurea

    Thank you thank you for sharing this. The answer I’ve been praying for so I can LIVE FOR THE-GLORY OF GOD!
    Just out of painful narcissistic relationship. Not proud of my anger/some actions. Neither was God.
    The answer is to pray earnestly for him. Have compassion by putting myself in his shoes. Yet no contact and protect myself.

    Blessings

  36. Jeffery Alan Avatar
    Jeffery Alan

    Just had this article shared by a friend. Good read. I’m not a clinician, but there are some people I’ve crossed paths with that seem to fit the bill. Cannot endure shame, therefore *will not take ownership.* It’s always someone else’s fault (in their mind) when their behavior backfires on them. The need to be prize bull or queen bee: number 1.

    The connection to possession is interesting.

    I’d be curious to read an Orthodox take on antisocial personality disorder as well. Surely there is hope for repentance for the sociopath, but the answer of how is above my pay grade.

    Also, Father, I enjoyed your book Everywhere Present.

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