The Church and the Scriptures

tanzaniaMy recent articles on the place of the Scriptures, their relationship with the Church, and the proper manner it which they are to be regarded have drawn more than a little comment (and some fire) including on other blogsites. In this article I want to take time to answer some specific points and to add some further observations. A Reform article, by Michael J. Kruger (Professor of NT at Reform Theological School in Charlotte), does a fairly careful treatment of my recent article There Is No Bible in the Bible.

Kruger’s first points are to take me to task for arguing that “books” themselves are late inventions and contending that the Bible was not therefore thought of as a “book.” He indeed cites some early codices from the late 2nd or early 3rd centuries – but gives examples that actually reinforce my central point. He notes examples of bound gospels and an example of bound epistles. What he cites are precisely what we would expect: liturgical items. The Orthodox still use the Scriptures in this form – the Gospels as a book (it rests on the altar), and the Epistles as a book (known as the Apostol). They are bound in such a manner for their use in the services of the Church, not as private “Bibles.” These are outstanding examples of the Scriptures organized in their liturgical format for their proper use: reading in the Church. They are Churchly items – not “The Book” of later Protestantism. They are the Scriptures of the worshipping Church.

And this is my point. The Scriptures are not “above” the Church nor the Church “above” the Scriptures. The Scriptures are “of” the Church and do not stand apart from the Church. Kruger says:

Here is where we come to the real issue with Freeman.  One might wonder:  Why is Freeman so intent on lowering the authority of Scripture?  Every argument in his article, whether historical or theological, has one simple end in mind, namely to convince the reader that the Bible is a problematic construction with less authority than people think. So, why would Freeman, an Orthodox priest, do this?

The answer is simple. He wants to lower the authority of the Bible so that he can replace it with the authority of the church.  He wants to convince Christians the Bible has problems, so that they will rely on the church instead.

It is very difficult to have a conversation with certain Protestants (such as the author of this Reform article). They have a view of the Scriptures as “Bible” rather than a more contextualized position as part of the life of the Church. Any attempt to rein in their run-away Bible agenda is seen as an attempt to diminish the Word of God or to exalt the Church to some wicked deceiver of Christians. But this is simply the tired rhetoric of the Reformation. I do not seek to convince readers that the Bible is a problematic construction – rather – Sola Scriptura Christians are problematic interpreters. The fruit of their work bears me out.

Sola Scriptura, as taught and practiced in Protestant thought, is simply wrong and an invention of the Late Medieval and Modern periods. All of the writers cited by Kruger for their “lists” of books are eventually described as the “Canon of Scripture,” are Orthodox Christians, mostly priests and bishops. They spoke and thought as the Orthodox do to this day. They never (!) saw the Bible as a book “over the Church.” These were men of a thoroughly sacramental world. The Bread and the Wine of the Eucharist was universally believed to be the very Body and Blood of Christ. These men ate God (using the language of St. Ignatius of Antioch). Yes, the Scriptures are theopneustos (“God breathed”), but so is every human soul. The God-breathed character of the Scriptures does not exalt them over us but raises them up to the same level as us. For ancient authorities (and the Orthodox faithful to this day) were Baptized into the death and resurrection of Christ and were thereby united together with Him. The Church was not and is not “under” the Bible, for it cannot be. Christ is Head of the Church, part of His Body. Is Christ “under the Scriptures?” All of the “lists” that are cited in the notion of the evolution of the Canon are lists of what the Church reads. And the Church reads them in her services as the Divine Word of God, just as the Church herself is the Divine Body of Christ, just as the Liturgy is the Marriage Supper of the Lamb, etc. The “Canon” of Scripture is as much a statement about the Church as it is about the Scriptures.

But all of this is lost, because for those who have reformed themselves out of communion with the historical faith and practice of Christianity, the context has been forgotten. They do not understand statements about the Church because they have forgotten the Church.

There are crucial tests that can be applied that reveal the truth of things and the errors of Sola Scriptura. The championing of the Bible as the Word of God “over the Church” is a ruse. It is and has been a means of exalting culture and private fiefdoms over the proper life of the believing community, disrupting the continuity of faith. A very grievous example can be found in the very American reform community from which Kruger criticizes my Orthodox teaching. For the very groups that exalted the Bible as Sola Scriptura, for years also exalted a Bible-based justification for the most egregious racism the world has ever seen. It has been a matter to which reformed Christians are today attending with repentance (to their credit). But by what criteria did their fathers find such racism in the Scriptures? And by what criteria do they themselves now not find it in the Scriptures? Are they not simply giving voice to various cultural winds and using the Scriptures as a convenient support? Have they not always done this? Today’s proponents of the radical sexual agenda rightly point out that these “Bible-based” teachers have always found Biblical support for their own cultural prejudices. Their history should leave them speechless.

Orthodoxy is not without its sinners. But in the 2000 year unbroken life of the Church, error has never been raised to the place of “Biblical teaching.” The Orthodox have never said that blacks do not have souls. The Orthodox have never declared one race to be inferior to another. Biblicists do well to repent of such things, but they fail to see that their own hermeneutical principles are at fault. Only a life lived with a true, genuine continuity of the tradition that is the very life of the Church can “rightly divide the word of truth.”

Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught, whether by word or our epistle. (2Th 2:15)

God promised to the Church that the gates of hell would not prevail. He declared the Church to be the Pillar and Ground of Truth. He revealed the Church to be the Bride of Christ (and I could fill pages with such statements).

This is not to exalt the Church “over” the Scriptures, but to recognize the Scriptures place within the Divine Life of the Church. The Orthodox do not exalt a bishop over the Scriptures, nor do we declare a bishop to be the head of the Church (we declare that to be error). But we acknowledge that the Scriptures cannot be rightly read outside of and apart from the life of the Church. Such decoupling of the Scriptures has only created false churches, false brethren, and false teaching. No gathering of Christians hears as much Scripture as the Orthodox do in the context of their services. The Orthodox liturgical life is the singing of Scripture in the praise of God (from beginning to end).

But in the name of “Biblical authority” contemporary Christians are today subjected to a growing and continuing phenomenon of rogue organizations built around charismatic personalities with little or no accountability (except to “the Bible” as they see it). Orthodoxy lives by the same rules (canons) that were in effect when the Scriptures were “canonized.” Those who canonized the Scriptures venerated the Mother of God, honored the saints, prayed for the departed, believed the Eucharist to be the true Body and Blood of Christ. They were the same Orthodox Church that lives and believes today. You cannot honor their “Canon of Scripture” while despising the lives and Church of those who canonized them.

While the Orthodox Church lives the same life under the same canons, reading the same Scriptures as it has always done – those who champion “God’s un-changing Word” and claim to be under the authority of the Bible cannot point to even two decades in which they have remained the same. They are a moving target. It is to be welcomed when they repent of past institutional sins – but their history reveals that they have primarily been subject to the spirit of the age, even if it’s a conservative spirit.

Christ never wrote a word. Christ never commanded his disciples to write a word (an exception being in Revelation). They were commanded to go forth, preach the gospel and to Baptize. Christ established the Church. The Church is the Scriptures and the Scriptures, rightly read, are the Church. This is the declaration of St. Paul to the Church in Corinth:

You are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read by all men; clearly you are an epistle of Christ, ministered by us, written not with ink but by the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of flesh, that is, of the heart. (2Co 3:2-3 NKJ)

Is that epistle of less value because it is not written in ink? It is only by being the living Scriptures that the Church can and does truly read and interpret the Scriptures. There is no “Bible” in the Bible. My original article stands.

About Fr. Stephen Freeman

Fr. Stephen is a priest of the Orthodox Church in America, Pastor Emeritus of St. Anne Orthodox Church in Oak Ridge, Tennessee. He is also author of Everywhere Present and the Glory to God podcast series.



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158 responses to “The Church and the Scriptures”

  1. Robert Avatar
    Robert

    All theological controversies have dissimilar ecclesiologies as their root cause.

    That is not to say that controversies present themselves as ecclesiological disputes.

  2. John Avatar
    John

    If anyone contests with asking the Mother of God to save them, then they must also contest every reference in Scripture to the word ‘save’ in regards to St. Paul. He routinely states that others can ‘save’, including himself. “I become all things to all men that I might SAVE some.” This is but one example. St. James likewise says, “let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will SAVE his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.” St. Jude says “And have mercy on some, who are doubting; SAVE others, snatching them out of the fire; and on some have mercy with fear, hating even the garment polluted by the flesh.

    Just use a reference tool to see how the word ‘save’ is used by the NT authors. To ask the Mother of God to save us is to use the word ‘save’ in its fullest sense, and that sense which conforms to the NT usage.

    John

  3. Nathan Avatar

    Thank you all for the wonderful engagement here. I’ll start from the back.

    John,

    Good points – and I note that you can appeal right to Scripture to make them, i.e. Scripture itself can helps us see the wider context. Nevertheless, the point remains that in the O.T. and the homogoumena – the Scriptures shared by the entire Ancient Church – we never see examples of this kind of prayer to the departed. It is just not there. And as Irenaeus pointed out, what the Holy Spirit had written down in the Scriptures was the key stuff of the Apostolic proclamation. If these kinds of prayers to Mary and other saints are as important as you say, why not even a hint of this kind of thin in the Scriptures? And again – this is a church dividing issue for the Orthodox? Just trying to understand. Again, I will have to find the quotes in Chemnitz from the 4th c. fathers who express misgivings about these prayers.

    Michelle,

    The synergism rejected in the Brief Statement simply has to do with the fact that we do not cooperate with God in our justification (John 1:12-13, for example). This is where you must understand our context and live in our world deeply to realize that. Further, any EO believes this about justification as well, do they not – at least when it comes to the baptizing of infants and baptismal regeneration? Anyone who knows Pastor Weedon knows that he emphasizes synergism all the time – although of course the doctrine of justification must be safeguarded for the sake of terrified consciences (this just means that we can give the penitent the absolution that creates peace with God – that they may know they have eternal life). I, and any good confessional Lutheran can indeed say that we are synergists as it pertains to salvation broadly understood (the whole of our Christian life), but not as pertains to the doctrine of justification (the thief on the cross really is saved and should have full certainty that He is, and so can terrified sinners). Monergism is nowhere used in our confessional documents and though some confessional Lutherans talk this way today, I advise persons to avoid this language, which is not typically Lutheran and causes confusion. From everything that I have read of the Fathers – and from those I know who read them widely – Lutherans for the most part are very comfortable reading the Fathers… they certainly were more Lutheran than Roman Catholic (See Jordan Cooper’s book “Christification” which points out the emphasis on theosis on Luther and the early Lutheran Fathers). So when you say “The Church Fathers use a synergistic language that is clearly antithetical and irreconcilable to Lutheran monergism”, it simply does not match my experience or those of other Lutherans.

    Re: the prayer to Mary, I see what you (and John) are saying. That said, I repeat to you the words I said to him above. And a further question: would this kind of prayer to Mary be something that a person could say to other saints like Peter and Paul? (this is my indirect response to your reaction to Pastor Weedon’s “wrong mail” quip). Or does this have to do with her being the unique Queen of Heaven? Honest question. Again, believe me when I say I don’t really have a problem with people praying to Mary – in fact, I addressed her myself this morning re: our discussions (well, I addressed her and her Son simultaneously, and told them my dilemma). My key question above, which I really would like to know the answer to is whether or not this is a fellow-ship dividing issue for you. I think about Paul delighting in the oneness he discovered he had with the Apostles, who after talking with him offered him the “right hand of fellowship”. I’m always eager to get at what really are non-negotiables for persons as we learn more about each other and how our views differ or do not (by the way, I have done a four part series on the similarities – it is called “If all theology is Christology, how wide the divide? A reflection on Lutheranism and Eastern Orthodoxy” Perhaps you’d like to check it out and we can talk some more based on what I say there.

    Father,

    *Forgive me* but I do not understand what you are talking about when you say “this is all so clueless”. What “word games” are you talking about? What have I said that you really do not understand at all? I re-read everything I wrote and i at least think it is very clear. Let me ask you this: what specifically, is our false teaching? It is not necessary Calvin’s. Some Lutherans may teach what Calvin taught, but something like Calvin’s teaching is not found, to my knowledge, in the Book of Concord. All we need is Isaiah 53:5, Romans 1-3 and the book of I John. All those elements – punishment, wrath, God reconciled to us, etc… are clearly there and we might not know just how it works, but Christ somehow took upon Himself our punishment which God allowed. Just because the Golden Mouth and Basil do not emphasize this – as Luther himself didn’t (as you point out) – does not mean that they could not have believed something similar. Again, in my experience, their writings, in their full context, would indicate that they did even if their theory of the atonement is not fully developed. What do you think about Palamas saying that the sacrifice of Christ reconciles God to us?

    Further, as I pointed out to you: “God’s merciful heart not only flows from the cross, but leads to the cross”. You say, “the atonement does not take place in order to change anything in God”, but you are talking to a confessional Lutheran, so we see the wisdom of what you say here and offer you words like I just did. Please do not ignore this point – I want conversation, not straw men.

    MichaelPatrick,

    I am not being silly and running in circles. I really wasn’t talking about the hymn (I should never have said “per se” by the way – not sure where that came from).

    “Homologoumena or not, re-invoking Bible this way just illustrates what a wearisome confusion of church and scriptures the Reformation produced.”

    Have your read the argument at my blog? My whole point there is that we cannot be lumped together with other Reformers. Our view of “Sola Scriptura” is very distinct if understood rightly.

    “He must be eaten, i.e., taken in whole without reduction. He gave us this capacity for our salvation. Salvation is not less than to forever dine with him on His own divinity. He is the bread of our life, our salvation and being broken thus and given is the very purpose for His condescension to our low estate.”

    Why do you think I disagree with you? I am a confessional Lutheran.

    Dino,

    “by introducing a “need” –higher than our God of love- that “demands” atonement…”

    Dino, perhaps I am wrong here, but to my knowledge, all of the talk in the Book of Concord about the penal aspects of the atonement do not insist that God “demands” this. That is Anselm, not us (and I actually have read a lot of Anselm and disagree with him vociferously).

    All,

    This has been very good for me and I hope you as well. My only regret is that I cannot meet you all personally. I would like to continue the conversation but will not be able to do so for several days. Please know I will, God willing, come back.

    Christ’s peace to you all.

    +Nathan

  4. Dino Avatar
    Dino

    Nathan,
    thanks for your response, your statement that:

    “I don’t really have a problem with people praying to Mary – in fact, I addressed her myself this morning re: our discussions (well, I addressed her and her Son simultaneously, and told them my dilemma).”

    made me think that the best solution by far would be for us to spend at least three to four times more, praying rather than thinking, reflecting, anlysing, reading and writing, I don’t know if you agree but I think we all have far greater needs in ‘that department’… 🙂

  5. John Avatar
    John

    Nathan,

    You said: “And as Irenaeus pointed out, what the Holy Spirit had written down in the Scriptures was the key stuff of the Apostolic proclamation.”

    First, there is a distinction in Orthodoxy between the proclamation of the Gospel and the inner life of the Church. What we find in the Scriptures is, of course, the Gospel as well as occasional letters regarding varying dilemmas in the life of the Church. But these issues that are addressed assume a context. What context? Is that context important? When reading the epistles one has to understand that much of what is not said (that is, shared knowledge by all) is just as important as what is said. You can’t read the Scriptures in a vacuum, nor were they written in one. Nobody ran around writing things down just for the sake of writing them down. In a primarily oral and communal culture (unlike our culture of print and individualism), writing down things was helpful but it wasn’t seen as a necessity. Sometimes I think we impose that 21st century cultural notion onto the first century Church, even reading it into writings of the Fathers and the Scriptures themselves. We must be careful how we read them. Rather, the Christian life was lived and passed down in doing as much as in writing, arguably more so since much of the early Christian worship, hymns and prayers (other than the Psalms) are not written down. So is Irenaeus right? Absolutely! But he’s talking about the proclamation of the Gospel which was for all. It is not shocking, then, to find that the early Christians guarded the sacraments from the sacrilege of pagan non-believers. They didn’t write them down often, and when they did (like St. Cyril’s catechetical lectures) he explicitly states that these aren’t to be shared with unbelievers and anyone that copies them out to put the same note that he has above it!

    You make an assumption about the Scriptures that I can’t agree with (and don’t think St. Irenaeus would have either). It seems that if something is “important” it must be written down. Says who? Why? What counts as “important”? Important to the Gospel? Important to the inner life of the Church? I agree that the Gospel is fully available in the Scriptures. St. Paul and St. John in letters to Christian communities (the Corinthians and the community referred to in John’s epistles) both state that they want to come to them in person to share information with them; St. Paul specifically speaking about the celebration of the Eucharist. Is the Eucharist not important? If we take your assumption as true, clearly it wasn’t. If it wasn’t that important, then why did St. Paul want to come to show them personally? A personal visit for a ceremony that apparently didn’t make the cut in any great detail in the NT. You make so many assumptions about how the early Church “must” or “ought” to have operated and you have imposed those assumptions upon the early Church!

    As far as the Mother of God goes, here’s a tidbit. She’s the Queen of Heaven. How do we know this? Well, in Israel’s history we know of a few of the wives of various kings. In fact, many kings had more than a few. But we do know a great many of the mothers of said kings. Why? They, not their sons’ wives, were the queen. (If I may, Father Stephen, I am adding a link that I do not think you will take issue with, but if you feel you must, please remove it from my comment.) It is a list of the the Queen Mothers of Israel as well as some information on the Hebrew word for the Queen Mother (Hebrew: Gebirah)

    http://www.agapebiblestudy.com/charts/Institution%20of%20the%20Gebirah.htm

    So, who is the King of Kings? Jesus Christ. Who is the Queen who rules with the King in Israel and intercedes on the people’s behalf? The mother, our Lord’s mother, the Theotokos. (1 Kings 1:11-31; 1 Kings 2:13-21). That is but a brief glimpse into the matter. Much more has been said regarding the issue and I believe Father Stephen may have written on the subject in the past.

    John

  6. Stacey Anderson Avatar
    Stacey Anderson

    Excellent, excellent, excellent! One of the best articles I have ever read on this issue, which for Orthodox, is a non-issue, really. Thank you for your courage and wisdom in writing this piece.

  7. Fr. Stephen Freeman Avatar

    Nathan,
    You create perverse rules. You take the single quote from Irenaeus, viz. what is written, and elevate it to a principle for the sake of your argument. This, despite the fact that oral tradition was (and is) held to be of value. It was explicitly defended by St. Basil. Also your constant invocation of “homogoumena” is again just a facile rhetoric trick in an effort to create a Lutheran canon of Scripture where none existed. These are not efforts to arrive at the truth, only perverse efforts to create a logically argued position. So long as you continue to make up rules (Lutheran rules) you will never arrive at the truth. Only at Lutheranism.

    As to the “right hand of fellowship.” There is no “fellowship” in the New Testament. The word is “koinonia” and means “communion.” The notion of fellowship is a modern invention and serves an ecumenist agenda.

    St. Paul recognized and was recognized and the right hand was a certification of being “in communion.” Today, it means the Cup of Christ. And there is no communion with untruths of Lutheranism or the various guises of Sola Scriptura or the efforts to void the Orthodox faith.

    May the Mother of God pray for you indeed. But the continued pressing of these various invented rules for Lutherans is simply too tedious for discussion.

  8. Drewster2000 Avatar
    Drewster2000

    Nathan,

    You seem sincere in your desire to come to an understanding of the impasse that exists here – and a bit baffled too perhaps. I believe the answer is context – not primarily the context of the scriptures in question, but of where you are standing when trying to discuss these things vs. the others in the discussion. It plays out in at least a couple ways:

    1. Material vs. Spiritual
    You are part of a Western culture which traditionally believes first and foremost in what it can see, touch and measure. While Western Christians definitely believe in God, their experience of Him is most palpable through physical mediums. Often that comes down to the themselves, the Bible and the people around them – and also what we see in nature. These are the ways they experience and learn about God.

    Those who are part of an Eastern culture tend to be more mystical, believing that there is much more to the world than meets the eye. Orthodox and other high-church bodies use things like incense and icons and elaborate dress to help make these things to be physical realities for them.

    So in the discussion above you are looking at your usual mediums – the Scriptures, other Lutherans, your experience – and honestly not seeing the things people on this site are telling you. This of course does not mean that they aren’t there, simply that you can’t see them.

    2. The Bible – Primary or Piece
    The second point stems from the first one. Of the Western mediums through which you learn and relate, only the Bible can have a claim to be inspired and unblemished. You, the people around you and even nature fails you time and again. But something physical must be clung to, so the Bible is it. If something cannot be justified there, it is suspect at best.

    On the other hand the Orthodox think of the Scriptures differently. Fr. Stephen put it very well in this series of articles. First they think of the “Scriptures” instead of the “Bible”. This is significant. Instead of it being this entity on its own (the Bible) which was canonized at one point and then proclaimed untouchable as the Ark of the Covenant from that point on, it is a collection of writings (the Scriptures) that the church has used over time, more like a working copy that has proved to be wisdom and life to the church throughout time.

    Secondly it is only a piece of the Christian life, a piece that dwells within the life of the church – the church as a whole but also as one parish. Besides the scriptures there is the living witness of the current church body, the teaching and wisdom of the church fathers, the current work of the Holy Spirit, and so on.

    This is different from the current Western view. If that group of people displeases me, they aren’t the church. I’ll take my Bible and go somewhere else. This isn’t said in meanness; it is simply the common way in this culture. In an Orthodox setting one would take it more seriously. Going to another church (even parish) should not be done lightly and certainly not just based on feelings. But I digress…..

    ~~~~~

    Though I probably didn’t explain it perfectly and much more could be said, I believe these differences in context and mindset keep you from seeing and understanding in this situation.

    For example, just because it wasn’t referenced in the Bible, doesn’t mean everyone in most of the church’s history (up to the Reformation) did not treat Mary with the reverence that is spoken of here – and sing to her the hymn in question. I’ll just remind you that the West tends to give honor and reverence to as little as possible, as often as it can help it. So therefore it would be natural for someone in this culture to look for all possible reason to not give Mary this kind of veneration.

    There is no real ill will here, just a divide in culture and understanding. This is an impasse that logic alone cannot bridge. You can be open to learning new things with your heart – for there is much to learn here – or you can simply ponder these things and leave it for another day.

    You seem to have a good heart and a great love for God and His knowledge. I wish you all the best, no matter which you choose.

    drewster

  9. Robert Avatar
    Robert

    Dear All,

    Someone earlier stated, “If all theology is Christology, how wide the divide?”

    All theology is ecclesiology, not christology. Before there was christology, the Ecclesia existed. The Church is the context of Tradition, how it is that we know what we know.

    At the end of the day, it is not assent to a set of propositional truths or familiarity with Patristics that matter. It is doing, it is practicing. It is learning and learning to live within the communion of the community of Tradition.

    Now and then someone comes along and wants to teach the community of Tradition how tradition is done. So it is that, for instance, they don’t agree with certain prayers, it just doesn’t sit right with them. You see, the community has it wrong, and the new reading of tradition should be accepted. Why can’t the community accept their new sensibility?
    Well, you see, this new sensibility is not how the community of Tradition has received and practiced the faith. This living reception of the faith has a pedigree that can be traced back through the centuries as an unbroken chain all the way back to the Apostolic Tradition.

    This new sensibility is declared (time and again) by the Ecclesia as ‘strange fire’, inconsistent with the Christian faith.

    So it is then one has two options: cling to their own sensibility, or accept the community of Tradition and learn how to live and practice the Christian faith as it has been lived and practiced through the ages everywhere.

    All theology is ecclesiology.

  10. Dino Avatar
    Dino

    When Christ utters, “I am the Way”, the fathers say it denotes the first stage of spiritual life – “purification”-, when He continues, “and the Truth”, this symbolizes the second stage – “illumination”-, and when He concludes “and the Life”, that is a mystical symbol of the final stage – “glorification or theosis”. Now, to someone outside of this tradition, the depth of the words of St. Paul: “The letter kills but the spirit makes alive” (II Cor. 3:6) is lost. This is because only someone who is at the third stage (‘deification/theosis’) or, at least the second (‘illumination’) has that quickening Spirit. Everybody else who is – hopefully – at the very least, on the path of ‘purification’ must trust those enlightened Saints who interpret Scripture as well as everything else. The Orthodox Church is the Church of those saints that have the word of God written “not in tables of stone, but in fleshly tables of their heart”. And as a whole it is free from error. Individually, this is not possible –being 100% free from delusion-, and for people like us who are still some way away from those two advanced stages of distinctively different Grace (to that of ‘purification’), remaining delusion free is not possible and we must therefore remain within such “tradition”.

  11. Fr. Stephen Freeman Avatar

    Robert,
    Well said! Another way of saying this is “The Church is what theology looks like.” Years ago I was in the Doctoral program at Duke and decided to stop my work, take a terminal MA, and go back to parish ministry. Stanley Hauerwas, who was on my committee, asked me why. I told him, “I’m leaving the academy so I can go do theology.” He liked the answer a lot.

    There is, of course, a place for the academy, and academic-like work. But it is always, always, always about the life lived in the Church. And the life lived in the Church is a communion – living active, true and utter participation. It is only in the life of the Church that there can be true “One-Storey Christianity.” Everything else would ultimately be an abstraction. And the communion of the Church is visible, historic, mystical. Someone may quote the Fathers, but they are not in communion with them outside of the Orthodox Church (pace my Roman Catholic brothers and sisters). The Fathers (and the Scriptures) are not texts, inert, objects to be used and tossed about. Even the Scripture is “living and active” according to Hebrews. If you are not in that communion with is visible, historic, mystical, then the treatment of the Scriptures and the Fathers – all theology – will be defective at best. And even within that communion it is a constant struggle in which the truth is only found in repentance. The greater the repentance, the more profound the truth.

  12. Loo Avatar
    Loo

    Nathan,

    I’ve noticed around the interwebs here that one of the things Reformed (I know, I’m being loose with the term here…) folks love to do is argue and argue in the comments section in large swaths of text until everyone is blue in the face and we can’t even figure out what’s being argued anymore. I guess I’m not sure what you are trying to accomplish here — are you genuinely interested in Orthodoxy to the point that you would change your beliefs if you were presented with compelling enough evidence, or are you simply here to tell us how we have mischaracterized your tradition (and all the while prove that it is the superior interpretation of the Christian faith)?

    If it is the former, and you are truly interested, my advice would be to find a local priest to speak with IN PERSON, with whom you can debate and question in the context of an actual relationship. That would be a much more useful environment than arguing with disembodied souls over the internet and potentially hijacking the comments on someone’s blog. Orthodoxy is so much more than just writings and debate: it is a rich, complex life that can’t be fully understood in just words.

    If it’s the latter, please just make your point, stand by it, and move on. I see you already have a long-form blog of your own, and that’s a great place for you to say whatever you want to at whatever length you choose to, and those who want to engage further in your lengthy discussion can do so there (and without the clickbait/reader trolling. I don’t want to say that you’re not welcome to disagree and comment on blogs such as this one (indeed, it’s not even my blog to police!); please, ask questions, object. But if you are so very assured of your own opinion, then stand by your objections as they are and invite people to do their own research. I mean, SOME dialogue is great, but getting to the point of writing a book in the comments section is crossing a line, IMO.

    Perhaps my attitude is wrong, but as a former Evangelical, I discovered that we can argue all we want; if someone’s heart is closed to what you are saying, words mean very little. The best we can do is love each other, and something about these endless arguments by Reformed-sorts (not that Orthodox don’t love to argue too…) just has too much of the feeling of some sort of rhetorical game than admonishments or objections made in love.

    I could say more on this, but I’ll try and keep from writing a book of my own and let my thought rest here. Thanks.

    (Father Stephen, please forgive my frustration and correct me if I’m wrong in my thinking, but as a devoted reader of this blog it becomes hard to read through the comments section when these situations occur like this, not that they aren’t informative at all — just distracting. I will not be at all offended if my post is deleted and welcome your censure.)

  13. Alan F Avatar
    Alan F

    Dino, thank you very much. I absolutely love your comment from today at 5:27 AM. Very wise counsel.

    Loo, I heartily concur with your last comment. Thank you.

  14. Michelle Avatar
    Michelle

    Nathan,

    By monergism I mean Lutheran confessions and doctrines of salvation that leads to such statements as these (All quotes are from “A Brief Statement of the Doctrinal Position of the Missouri Synod, 1932”):

    “As to the question why not all men are converted and saved, seeing that God’s grace is universal and all men are equally and utterly corrupt, we confess that we cannot answer it. From Scripture we know only this: A man owes his conversion and salvation, not to any lesser guilt or better conduct on his part, but solely to the grace of God. But any man’s non-conversion is due to himself alone; it is the result of his obstinate resistance against the converting operation of the Holy Ghost…….”

    “The Formula of Concord describes the mystery which confronts us here not as a mystery in man’s heart (a “psychological” mystery), but teaches that, when we try to understand why “one is hardened, blinded, given over to a reprobate mind, while another, who is indeed in the same guilt, is converted again,” we enter the domain of the unsearchable judgments of God and ways past finding out, which are not revealed to us in His Word, but which we shall know in eternal life.”

    “By the election of grace we mean this truth, that all those who by the grace of God alone, for Christ’s sake, through the means of grace, are brought to faith, are justified, sanctified, and preserved in faith here in time, that all these have already from eternity been endowed by God with faith, justification, sanctification, and preservation in faith……To be sure, it is necessary to observe the Scriptural distinction between the election of grace and the universal will of grace. This universal gracious will of God embraces all men; the election of grace, however, does not embrace all, but only a definite number, whom “God hath from the beginning chosen to salvation,” 2 Thess. 2:13, the “remnant,” the “seed” which “the Lord left,” Rom. 9:27- 29, the “election,” Rom. 11:7; and while the universal will of grace is frustrated in the case of most men, Matt. 22:14; Luke 7:30, the election of grace attains its end with all whom it embraces, Rom. 8:28-30. Scripture, however, while distinguishing between the universal will of grace and the election of grace, does not place the two in opposition to each other. On the contrary, it teaches that the grace dealing with those who are lost is altogether earnest and fully efficacious for conversion. Blind reason indeed declares these two truths to be contradictory; but we impose silence on our reason…”

    These are antithetical and irreconcilable to the long standing proclamation of synergy by the entire Church for the last 2000 yrs (including ALL of the Church Fathers). Bishop Kallistos Ware expresses this same synergy:

    “As we have seen, the fact that man is in God’s image means among other things that he possesses free will. God wanted a son, not a slave. The Orthodox Church rejects any doctrine of grace which might seem to infringe upon man’s freedom. To describe the relation between the grace of God and free will of man, Orthodoxy uses the term cooperation or synergy (synergeia); in Paul’s words: “We are fellow-workers (synergoi) with God” (1 Cor. 3:9). If man is to achieve full fellowship with God, he cannot do so without God’s help, yet he must also play his own part: man as well as God must make his contribution to the common work, although what God does is of immeasurably greater importance than what man does. ‘The incorporation of man into Christ and his union with God require the cooperation of two unequal, but equally necessary forces: divine grace and human will (A Monk of the Eastern Church, Orthodox Spirituality, p. 23). The supreme example of synergy is the Mother of God (See p. 263).

    The west, since the time of Augustine and the Pelagian controversy, has discussed this question of grace and free will in somewhat different terms; and many brought up in the Augustinian tradition — particularly Calvinists — have viewed the Orthodox idea of ‘synergy’ with some suspicion. Does it not ascribe too much to man’s free will, and too little to God? Yet in reality the Orthodox teaching is very straightforward. “Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in” (Revelation 3:20). God knocks, but waits for man to open the door — He does not break it down. The grace of God invites all but compels none. In the words of John Chrysostom: ‘God never draws anyone to Himself by force and violence. He wishes all men to be saved, but forces no one’ (Sermon on the words ‘Saul, Saul…’ 6 (P.G. 51, 144)). ‘It is for God to grant His grace,’ said Saint Cyril of Jerusalem (died 386); ‘your task is to accept that grace and to guard it (Catehetical Orations, 1, 4). But it must not be imagined that because a man accepts and guards God’s grace, he thereby earns ‘merit.’ God’s gifts are always free gifts, and man can never have any claims upon his Maker. But man, while he cannot ‘merit’ salvation, must certainly work for it, since “faith without works is dead” (James 2:17).”

  15. Michelle Avatar
    Michelle

    I just want to add that the reason the Lutheran quotes repeatedly state that there is a contradiction that cannot be reasoned this side of heaven is because they do in fact believe that God “breaks down the door” in conversion. They can’t figure out how some can resist God’s breaking down their door while others cannot.

  16. Dino Avatar
    Dino

    Alan F,
    Saint Isaac the Syrian puts it thus:

    …Without unceasing prayer you cannot draw near to God; and to introduce some other concern into your mind during the toil of prayer is to cause dispersion in your heart. If fiery thoughts arise in you when, through the consuming flame of divine things, you enjoy a taste of God, but when you seek to find them again, you discover them to be tasteless and cold in your soul, {then know that this is because] carefree converse with men has rushed upon you from some quarter…

  17. Michelle Avatar
    Michelle

    Nathan, you asked about saying prayers to St. Paul and St. Peter that are like the one to the Mother of God. Here’s some beatiful Orthodox prayers with some Salvivic language to both of them:

    “O holy Peter, chief of the apostles, rock of faith steadfast in thy confession, foundation of the Church immovable in Christ, pastor of the rational flock of Christ, keeper of the keys to the kingdom of heaven, fisherman most wise who from the depths of unbelief dost draw forth men! Thee do I humbly entreat, that the net of thy divine draught encompass me and draw me forth from the abyss of perdition. I know that thou hast received from God the authority to loose and to bind; release me who am bound fast with bonds of sin, show forth thy mercy on me, wretch that I am, and give life to my soul which hath been slain by sins, as before thou didst raise up Tabitha from the dead; restore me to the good path, as before thou didst restore the lame man at the Beautiful Gates, who had been lame from his mother’s womb; and as thou didst heal all the infirm by thy shadow, may the grace given thee by God overshadow me, healing my ailments of body and soul. For thou canst do all things, O holy one, through the power of Christ, for Whose sake thou didst forsake all to follow in His steps. Wherefore, pray thou to Him in my behalf, wretch that I am, that by thy supplications He may deliver me from all evil and teach me with a pure heart to send up glory to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit, now and ever, and unto the ages of ages. Amen.”

    “O holy Paul, eminent among the apostles, chosen vessel of Christ, recounter of heavenly mysteries, teacher of all the nations, clarion of the Church, renowned orator, who didst endure many misfortunes for the name of Christ, who didst traverse the sea and didst go about the land, and didst convert us from the deception of idolatry! Thee do I entreat and to thee do I cry: disdain me not, defiled as I am, but raise me up who have fallen through sinful sloth, as in Lystra thou didst raise up the man who had been lame from his mother’s womb; and as thou didst give life unto Euthyches who lay dead, so also raise me up from my dead works; and as at thine entreaty the foundation of the prison once quaked and thou didst loose the bonds of the prisoners, so draw me out of the snare of the enemy, and strengthen me to do the will of God. For thou canst do all things by the authority given thee by God, to Whom is due all glory, honor and worship, with His unoriginate Father and His allholy, good and life-creating Spirit, now and ever, and unto ages of ages. Amen.”

  18. Michelle Avatar
    Michelle

    That’s supposed to say “salvific.” Lousy autocorrect.

  19. Dean Arnold Avatar

    Well, heckfire.

    I planned to spend 3 minutes reading Fr. Stephen’s most recent article on Sola Scriptura and ended up spending an hour and a half reading one amazing thread of comments.

    What I sense happening here is that Fr. Stephen (and Orthodoxy in general in America) is getting close to the jugular of Protestantism. It’s fun to watch.

    I would like to echo a few of the good comments encouraging a continued loving and longsuffering attitude toward those in the discussion most vociferously arguing against us. I was raised in the Reformed tradition (PCA) and know it well. These are generally very good people. Don’t get them mixed up with some of the petty, more argumentative standouts who are more wannabes than solid, reflective, sincere people seeking Christ and the truth.

    Here’s what the Reformed people have going for them. 1) They have not given up on the intellect. They are committed to loving God with all their minds, unlike much of Evanglicalism. 2) They still believe in church authority. Evangelicalism has become a joke in terms of authority. But the PCA and other Reformed groups take it very seriously.

    Yes, their foundation is rotten. But these people didn’t devote their entire hearts to their position understanding their foundation is almost completely eroded. So, yes, it is an epistemological crisis for them to come across Orthodox teachings that finally make sense of the non-sensical fact of the canon of scripture in relation to Sola Scriptura. Give them some time to process things.

    The Reformed Christians are very stubborn. They are also very strong. They are about to give way, and when they do, they will be an incredible boon to Orthodoxy. Most of them truly desire God, and they are passionate to follow Scripture and obey God’s Church. When they figure out that the Orthodox Church is the institution that actually and truly does this, Katy bar the door!

    So .. be kind. Be loving. Keep at it. The fruit of your reward is coming soon.

  20. Brian Avatar
    Brian

    Dean,

    Well said. I fear that false doctrine (and it is false) sometimes gets confused with false piety. True, one does have an impact on the other. But it is primarily personal knowledge that reveals the truth of doctrine, not the other way around. Few, if any, come to Orthodoxy of faith by logical arguments. Most simply come to recognize the One they already know, although with a fullness once thought impossible in this life. For most who have been immersed all their lives in a set of ideas, it is a gradual process. Gentleness and patience are required of us all.

  21. MichaelPatrick Avatar
    MichaelPatrick

    This thread illustrates something like archaeologists who have discovered an artifact of some kind that’s so valuable they all want to be experts. Irony, though, is that this artifact belongs to people who are still in their midst, who are witnesses to the both the artifact itself and the traditions that explain its meaning.

    Yet the archaeologists ignore these people, set up schools to teach about the artifact, produce their own experts and become utterly convinced in their own minds that they know what they’re talking about.

  22. MichaelPatrick Avatar
    MichaelPatrick

    Please let me add: I became Orthodox about 20 years ago after realizing that I owed it to the oldest church to hear what she had to say for herself. I brought lots of concerns like prayers to saints, icons, clergy vestments, liturgical rubrics, and so on — I knew many of these were not essential or required by God. But even that kind of critique came from a spiritual reductionism. I was suspicious of particular things that anyone claimed came from God because He, I thought, had left us only the Bible. I did not know then that I was conditioned by secular thinking reinforced by my Evangelical faith.

    When I showed up and saw for myself I heard more scripture and prayer read in Orthodox church services than any I had ever heard before. I realized that all the particular objections of mine, including icons, vestments, and so on, were human particulars which God ordained or for which He has no disdain. He Himself became particular, for example, to make us in His image! He embraced the particular variety and vintage of wine made at the wedding at Cana. He approached his mother frequently as a child to get her protection, comfort and advice. If God does not disdain the church and it’s particulars who are we to judge them? He saves us through low means in order to raise us into His glory. We cannot think ourselves above low things if this is where He wants to meet us.

    The scriptures have their context in the people and the people are in our midst. The real question is, are we in the midst of these people, solidly placed somewhere in our place within His temple of living stones?

  23. Robert Avatar
    Robert

    ” those who champion ‘God’s un-changing Word’ and claim to be under the authority of the Bible cannot point to even two decades in which they have remained the same. They are a moving target…they have primarily been subject to the spirit of the age…”

    Case on point in today’s news:
    http://www.theamericanconservative.com/dreher/hillsong-evangelicalisms-future/

  24. Karen Avatar
    Karen

    Brian, your comment to Dean reminds me of a NOVA documentary I saw on “Stonehenge.” It was the story of archeologists trying to uncover the meaning of Stonehenge to the people who erected it. Western archeologists knew it to be a burial ground, but it took an archeologist from Madagascar to recognize the ring of stones as being connected to the honoring of ancestors because such rings are a familiar presence in his region of the world and their meaning a living memory among the people.

  25. Nathan Avatar

    Hello all,

    Grabbed some time this morning to catch up here and respond.

    Thank you for continuing to engage me and offering such thoughtful answers. Please know I have not ceased that God would lead and guide me – and others – into all truth. I pray this kind of thing all the time.

    Loo asked:

    “are you genuinely interested in Orthodoxy to the point that you would change your beliefs if you were presented with compelling enough evidence, or are you simply here to tell us how we have mischaracterized your tradition (and all the while prove that it is the superior interpretation of the Christian faith)?”

    Loo – but here is my question: what kind of “evidence” are you talking about offering? I am not even clear about that… I have met and talked with E.O. priests in the flesh. One of them – a very highly respected one – on hearing what I believed, thought that my beliefs and his were actually basically the same as his (again, I wrote that series of posts trying to find common ground with E.O.: “if all theology is Christology, how wide the divide?”) Loo – are you also suggesting that *reading* the great E.O. writers could not be of help to me at all? See Robert’s point and my counter-question to him directly below…. I think it gets more to the heart of things.

    Referring to prayers to Mary in particular, and stating that “all theology is ecclesiology”, Robert said:

    “Now and then someone comes along and wants to teach the community of Tradition how tradition is done. So it is that, for instance, they don’t agree with certain prayers, it just doesn’t sit right with them. You see, the community has it wrong, and the new reading of tradition should be accepted. Why can’t the community accept their new sensibility?

    Well, you see, this new sensibility is not how the community of Tradition has received and practiced the faith. This living reception of the faith has a pedigree that can be traced back through the centuries as an unbroken chain all the way back to the Apostolic Tradition.”

    Well that is the claim – and I understand that many believe that to be true. I think I would be right in saying that many are saying here that whatever evidence or lack thereof there might be in regards to the presence and rightness of this (I believe Father pointed to evidence showing that a famous hymn to Mary from the early third century was being used), they will believe it. *If that is the case*, let me say that, I do not find this emphasis on trust per se (vs evidence we can begin to clearly determine the meaning of) to be a problem – I think that simple trust that one is right, has received right teaching, and is in right place may very well be commendable.

    Here is what I find puzzling though. Even as I say this above about trust, in the book of Acts, Paul himself ***commends*** the Bereans for testing what he says according to the Scriptures (Acts 17:11). We see a similar concern in Isaiah 8:20. In my view, this is acceptable because God also wants His people to *trust* that the Scriptures contain all that we really need to know in order to have true faith in Him (an “eternal life” relationship) and to live a God-pleasing life – even the O.T. Scriptures pointed ahead to the Christ (Jesus explaining this in Luke 24 exemplifies this). The Scriptures and pure oral teaching and practice are always meant to go hand in hand.

    So I think I do understand what all of you are saying here, but I would like to understand more about how you see and interpret these passages: how to E.O. persons commend persons for testing things according to the Scriptures (what does the context for this look like more specifically)?

    Here is what drives this concern: In the O.T. we see how badly the church went off the rails – and yet the Lord provided persons who knew the Scriptures well who did indeed speak the truth (and Scriptures they wrote were further recognized as from God and preserve). These were prophetic voices who called persons back… perhaps even infallible voices to accompany the infallible homologoumena. Would it be accurate to say that the E.O. do not believe that this kind of apostasy could happen today – at least among themselves?

    But if that is the case, why does Christ Himself, when he talks about the Last Days, speak about how the love of many will grow cold and whether or not He will find faith on earth… That sounds like a really tiny remnant.

    I would point out that it is not only the church father Irenaeus who speaks the way he does, but others as well uphold the Scriptures as the only pure and true fount worth depending on (I’ll refrain from listing quotes [and yes, I am considering their context as well]). I am familiar with the one passage in the early church that really seems to challenge this from Basil which Father Freeman mentions, but do not think it means what he says it does (and it really is the only one like it to my knowledge).

    Father Freeman – I am discouraged to see that you only have strong words for me. As I try to be humble and explore the Scriptures and the Fathers I cannot reconcile your confidence with them. And while I respect the utter certainty that you portray, I can only say that I have a similar certainty based on my knowledge of the Scriptures and the Fathers, which I understand you feel is a great misinterpretation due to my lack of E.O. context.

    I also believe in the living witness of the church, exemplified more or less in the eight traditions that Martin Chemnitz was forced to outline in his conflict of the Western church when it had severely gone of the rails and culminated by explicitly putting its errors in official form in the Council of Trent:

    The concept of a contemporaneous existence of the Word of God in a corrupted verbal form, and a pure written form, spawned Chemnitz’s explanation of traditiones in the second locus, De traditionibus. Here he lists the first of eight different types of traditiones as Scripture itself, i.e. the things that Christ and the Apostles preached orally and were later written down. Then follows: 2) the faithful transmission of the Scriptures; 3) the oral tradition of the Apostles (which by its very nature must agree with the contents of the New Testament canon); 4) the proper interpretation of the Scriptures received from the Apostles and “Apostolic men”; 5) dogmas that are not set forth in so many words in Scripture but are clearly apparent from a sampling of texts; 6) the consensus of true and pure antiquity; 7) rites and customs that are edifying and believed to be Apostolic, but cannot be proved from Scripture. Chemnitz rejects only the eighth kind of tradition: [8] traditions pertaining to faith and morals that cannot be proved with any testimony of Scripture; but which the Council of Trent commanded to be accepted and venerated with the same reverence and devotion as the Scripture. The important element of this last of the traitiones appears not to be the fact that such traditions of faith and morals not provable from Scripture actually existed, but that their status of equality with Scripture was foisted upon the church by the Council of Trent.” P. Strawn, Cyril of Alexandria as a Source for Martin Chemnitz, in Die Patristik in der Bibelexegese des 16. Jahrhunderts, Wolfenbu”ttleler Forschungen, Bd. 85, Hrsg. v. David C. Steinmetz, Wiesbaden 1999, p. 213-14.

    As all of you can see, there is a room for other traditions to be received besides Scripture in this framework… Yes Father – I know you will find this to be nothing but “theory”. I think that, given what Chemnitz had in the West as far as “living authorities”, his approach makes a lot of sense and should, at the very least, be something worth interacting with and working with the Lutherans on (for those who feel so called). I understand that you think this kind of thing reads all kinds of stuff back into the Fathers… Of course I don’t see that at all even as I don’t think I have been closed to considering that possibility.

    Point taken about communion (“fellowship”).

    +Nathan

  26. Nathan Avatar

    Michelle,

    Thanks for finding those prayers for me. Interesting indeed.

    +Nathan

  27. Fr. Stephen Freeman Avatar

    Nathan,
    I generally see that your point is that there is not much need to continue discussing this. What I really think you are looking for is “validation” from the Orthodox (hence your citing of a misguided priest who saw little difference). It will not be forthcoming here.

  28. Karen Avatar
    Karen

    Nathan, I also sense that perhaps you are so committed to your understanding of the Christian tradition, that it will not be possible for you to really absorb and accommodate the Orthodox context for understanding the Scriptures and the Tradition handed down in our midst, which is what is required. Instead you will assimilate the parts of Orthodox teaching that can fit into the framework you have received (and unwittingly warp their meaning in the process: http://www.learningandteaching.info/learning/assimacc.htm). But I do appreciate your polite spirit and persistence in asking questions about what is not clear to you.

    With regard to interpretation of the Bereans passage (with which I, as a former Evangelical, am very familiar), there was some recent online discussion in a comments section of that here that may be of interest:

    https://glory2godforallthings.com/onbehalfofall/apocalypse-tradition-source-authority-orthodoxy/

    Kind regards!

  29. Dino Avatar
    Dino

    Nathan,
    I am certainly not familiar with the details of Protestant thought -as a cradle-Orthodox- and I frankly find them terrifically tedious due to their confused disparity. I remind you that Orthodoxy (“right belief”) is constantly producing Saints (for two thousand years now) that utter the same thing; meanwhile, Protestantism is producing a different fad for every day of the week.
    It is true that only Saints, the ‘living icons of Christ’, the God-bearers who encountered Christ in His Uncreated light – having partaken of the power of the Cross and the Resurrection of Christ – are capable of subsequently reliably recognizing truth and interpreting Scripture rightly. All others need their aid not to fall away.
    The earliest Christian writings we have, the letters of the God-bearer Paul (who had encountered Christ in His Uncreated light), are addressed to Churches that had already started misinterpreting the Gospel he had delivered them due to individual’s interpretations that did not share or even venerate and obey the authority of the holy God-bearers. So the “hidden treasure” of Christ can only be recognized properly and fully (in the “field” of Scripture) by those who have already encountered Him first-hand and know Him through the Holy Spirit – the illumined and deified Saints who have proved themselves “doers of the Word and not hearers only” (James 1:22)
    Otherwise we end up with the many tens of thousands of different denominations Protestantism has – all somehow claiming a different truth through the same Sola Scriptura approach, whether Anglicans, Presbyterians, Charismatics, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Later-day Saints, Congregationalists, Baptists, Pentecostals, Lutherans, Adventists, Methodists etc…

  30. Sakura_95 Avatar
    Sakura_95

    This is a good article Father, keep it up!!

    Kruger can go ahead and play a game of twister with the facts but it doesn’t prove his point defending it.

    Perhaps what’s odd about Kruger’s article is that he didn’t bother to take into account as in relation to the Assumption of Moses, the fact that Jude refers to it ala as in something that is believed to be occurred or is at the very least, part of Jewish tradition as Jude 1:9 says,

    “Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.”(KJV)

    The above citation was just so casually written by the author himself as if having the intended recipients to understand and know what is meant by this reference to the Apocalypse of Moses.

    But what’s rather odd about Kruger is that he never bothered to mention the fact that each “Canon” of the Church Fathers are different. Some of the Fathers view the Didache or the Shepard of Hermas as Inspired Scripture. Yet, all Christians today don’t see that such is the case which really raises the question of “The Sufficiency of Scripture” since there are extra Biblical books being perceived as Scripture.

  31. Fr. Stephen Freeman Avatar

    Sakura,
    Kruger’s easy dismissal of Jude 1:9, noting that he did not say, “As the Scripture says,” is about as lame a response as I can imagine. I have become used to a very forensic use of Scripture from the Sola Scriptura crowd. They are like lawyers parsing some obscure document and cannot allow themselves to stand back and ask even the most reasonable of questions. It is obvious that Jude thinks of this as received and acceptable knowledge (i.e. Scripture). It is also obvious, historically, that “Scripture” is a much looser term than the Sola Scriptura crowd would like.

    But their make-believe games work because, among themselves, they all agree not to ask any troubling questions. Blind leading the blind…

  32. Ed Avatar
    Ed

    Beyond the lists of books that eventually come to be described as “canon”, I am wondering how certain books of the New Testament were ever circulated for wider readership, specifically in the first century.

    In broad terms, it makes sense how the Gospels and the letters written to various local Churches would be copied and given to other local Churches. But what about Paul’s letter to Philemon, for example? How does this correspondence between individuals about a very specific issue reach wider readership?

  33. Sakura_95 Avatar
    Sakura_95

    Indeed Father. Evangelicals have a tendency to “lawyer” their way around things. Sometimes, they would even ignore fundamental contexts and variables as to argue in favor of their doctrine. I had seen Evangelicals hurl in misinterpretations of the Church Fathers before, particularly whenever they uphold the Scriptures. They fail to realize that Tradition must agree with Scripture just as Scripture agrees with Tradition. It is a two way relationship in which the two compliment each other and disallows the two to be separated from each other or have one place above the other. When one is deeply informed in the History of the Church or has some knowledge of it, Sola Scriptura ends up being nothing but a mere innovation.

  34. Fr. Stephen Freeman Avatar

    Ed,
    Good question. The exact mechanism of collecting St. Paul’s letters is not known. But a faithful tradition holds that they were gathered by none other than Onesimus (the slave of Philemon). He became the Bishop of Ephesus (mentioned by St. Ignatius in his letters). He gathered St. Paul’s letters, including Philemon (for obvious reasons). This tradition, though it cannot be proven, has a very ancient provenance and a fairly general acceptance.

    Such a collection would have had to have had some central authority (such as the bishop of a major Church). Since most of the Letters were sent to Churches in Asia Minor, Ephesus would be a very strong candidate. Though only a city of ruins today, was a major port until the 7th century or so when the harbor began to be unusable due to silting. It was the cite of a number of major councils, including the 3rd Ecumenical Council in 431.

  35. Nathan Avatar

    Father,

    “I generally see that your point is that there is not much need to continue discussing this. What I really think you are looking for is “validation” from the Orthodox (hence your citing of a misguided priest who saw little difference). It will not be forthcoming here.”

    Father, in all humility, I do not understand how you can conclude that. Again, your approach to me continues to frustrate, discourage, and sadden. I only mentioned the “validation” from the well-known E.O. priest because it is something that really happened and directly pertained to the discussion at hand – the point being that it would be helpful for me to meet with real E.O. priests. I have done this several times – and with laypersons as well.

    Karen,

    Thank you for the note and kind regards. Please know, I am always trying to be subservient to the Living Tradition of the Church – even if there are some here whose own context, I suggest, does not allow them to begin to understand this. In the article you refer me to, Gabe Martini says “There was no Bible or even recognized set of such scriptures at this point in history (nor would there be until at least the middle of the second century, as far as the Gospels are concerned)” and “Paul himself writes in numerous places to hold fast to both the written and oral apostolic traditions”. As regards the first quote, this is frankly too easy, given Jesus’ words identifying the well-known “it is written” Scriptures of the day, particularly in Luke 24. This would seem to go hand in hand with Paul commending the Bereans, would it not? Regarding the second quote, of course Paul would desire that persons hold to his teaching, which were in harmony with the O.T. Scriptures, which it would seem to be why he readily invited and commended such testing.

    Dino,

    “I remind you that Orthodoxy (“right belief”) is constantly producing Saints (for two thousand years now) that utter the same thing; meanwhile, Protestantism is producing a different fad for every day of the week.”

    Dino – you paint with too broad a brush. Us confessional Lutherans claim those ancient saints as ours as well. And we claim our own faithful ones who, if we were to officially pronounce saints, would earn that title. All those other “Reformers” you mention (the “tens of thousands of denominations”) would certainly do well to return to the faithful Ancient Church in the West.

    Sakura 95,

    “I had seen Evangelicals hurl in misinterpretations of the Church Fathers before, particularly whenever they uphold the Scriptures. They fail to realize that Tradition must agree with Scripture just as Scripture agrees with Tradition. It is a two way relationship in which the two compliment each other and disallows the two to be separated from each other or have one place above the other. When one is deeply informed in the History of the Church or has some knowledge of it, Sola Scriptura ends up being nothing but a mere innovation.”

    Sakura 95, we basically agree. As I wrote in my post answering this one for Lutherans, “Sola Scriptura” simply means that if a conflict arises between the wider Church and its Scriptures, the Scriptures, properly interpreted, must certainly correct the Church. Today’s Church cannot contradict yesterday’s Church, assuming that it was in harmony with, and did not contradict the Scriptures. Based on all the reading I have done in this area, this is what the Fathers of the Church always taught. Which brings me to Father Freeman’s last intriguing remark.

    Father Freeman,

    “It is also obvious, historically, that “Scripture” is a much looser term than the Sola Scriptura crowd would like.”

    Father – I would like to invite these “troubling questions”, as you call them (something I have found the best Confessional Lutherans never avoid). Where do you point me first here, in order to learn more about this in particular? Where are the prominent example of the Fathers using the word “Scriptures” with this kind of broad and inclusive meaning?

    And I will repeat one of my key questions, which is indeed sincere and pressing:

    “Would it be accurate to say that the E.O. do not believe that this kind of apostasy could happen today – at least among themselves?

    But if that is the case, why does Christ Himself, when he talks about the Last Days, speak about how the love of many will grow cold and whether or not He will find faith on earth?… That sounds like a really tiny remnant.”

    I see there are many other interesting conversations happening at this blog right now (after this post), but I will stay here. And it might be a while again before I can respond.

    +Nathan

  36. Robert Avatar
    Robert

    Ecclesiology.

    “for Lutherans, “Sola Scriptura” simply means that if a conflict arises between the wider Church and its Scriptures, the Scriptures, properly interpreted, must certainly correct the Church.”

    Simply!

    Here are some questions:
    Who decides what “the Scriptures” are?
    On what basis shall (those with authority) make this decision?
    Who then has the authority to 1.) make “proper” interpretation(s), and 2. ) subject the wider Church to this/these “proper” interpretation?
    What is the nature of this ability to “properly interpret” the Scriptures? Are those endowed with such authority doing so infallibly?
    How is the wider Church to determine whose interpretation is “(im)proper”? And what is the nature of the wider Church’s recourse should their interpretation of the Scripture conflict with so-call “proper” interpretation of the narrower Church?
    Who is to decide the fate of multiple claims of “proper interpretations”?

    Simply. Not so!

    The Protestant Reformers’ revolutionary attempt to appeal to the “Scriptures Alone” was a clever trick that worked, for a while; some sadly insist to continue this trick to the uninformed. It works well as long as you don’t pay attention to the man behind the curtain.

  37. Dino Avatar
    Dino

    Nathan,
    that Orthodoxy (“right belief”) is constantly producing Saints (for two thousand years now) that all utter (no matter where they happen to be) the same thing, means that their first hand experience of God – their Pentecost – informs their ‘proper interpretation.’ This tradition (having been misinterpreted) and thrown out as a baby with the bathwater in all reformation, producing as its fruit, the Babel-like seen we witness instead of the unity of interpretation of the Orthodox Church. And it’s not just the “ancient saints” (as you -forgive me for saying- ‘sneakily’ claimed) – it is a living stream still flowing…!

  38. Fr. Stephen Freeman Avatar

    It is the lack of true modern saints (wonderworkers,etc) that reveal so much about Protestantism. It is the presence of such saints within Catholicism as well as the Non-Chalcedonians that keep the conversation necessary. It is modernity, ultimately, with its reduction of faith to a rational response, rather than true Spirit-bearing reality that empties the world of saints. Rationality has never produced a saint. Neither thinking, nor rational faithing, makes saints. Just professors, preachers and the debaters of this age.

  39. Karen Avatar
    Karen

    With respect, Nathan, from my perspective your Lutheran glasses blind you to the proper significance of the apostolic view of the OT Scriptures (it was not Lutheran) and the realities of NT and early Christian history (even in their simplified form) that Gabe mentions. That being the case, I have no wish to argue with you. I accept that you see things as you see things–the Lutheran glasses are well in place–but I do not believe you understand the truth of them. I trust you understand it is not my intent to sadden, but I don’t see what benefit there might be from more discussion at this point. Keep reading if you are interested and someone might write something that lends a greater perspective or makes the “lightbulb” in another “room” go on.

    Again, kind regards!

  40. 'lex Avatar
    ‘lex

    “Would it be accurate to say that the E.O. do not believe that this kind of apostasy could happen today – at least among themselves?”

    Nathan, I don’t understand some of your questions or where you are hinting at with them. If I understand correctly what you are asking, the Orthodox Church will not be apostatic (the gates of hell will not prevail), but as far as individuals (such as me, x, y, z) are concerned, yes, we might slip away if we aren’t careful. God forbid. Even high ierarchs (bishops etc) might fall, but this doesn’t mean that the Orthodox Church falls — it means that they fall out of the Orthodox Church. Perhaps Fr. Stephen or someone more experienced with how these things are worded in English could explain better.

  41. Nathan Avatar

    Dino,

    You are right – it is a living stream… that flows in Wittenberg! Long live Luther, Chemnitz, John and Paul Gerhard, C.F.W. Walther, Kurt Marquardt, and a myriad of other saintly men.

    Robert,

    Yes, feel free to highlight “properly interpreted”. There is nothing to hide from there. It’s only right that I include those words, because the Scriptures must indeed be interpreted by the Church, and as to who is the infallible interpreter the answer is the same as it has always been: the faithful remnant in the true visible Church. And no one decided what the Scriptures were. The faithful saints of old simply recognized them – again, universally (homologoumena) – to be so.

    You ask: “And what is the nature of the wider Church’s recourse should their interpretation of the Scripture conflict with so-call “proper” interpretation of the narrower Church?”

    The answer is the same as it has always been – read the Scriptures, meditate, pray, consult with others you see Christ in, seek the face of the Lord. But especially remember Isaiah 8:20 and Acts 17:11. *This is a part of the true rule of faith*.

    Father Freeman:

    “It is the lack of true modern saints (wonderworkers,etc) that reveal so much about Protestantism. It is the presence of such saints within Catholicism as well as the Non-Chalcedonians that keep the conversation necessary.”

    I am sorry you do not know the good Lutheran people I know. People who love their God and neighbors. People who hunger for the true body and blood of Christ in the sacrament. Further, the greatest miracles are the simple things: Luther talking about fathers changing diapers in love and the like, etc. (and I do believe, for example, that God heals today, knowing many Lutherans who have received such gifts).

    “It is modernity, ultimately, with its reduction of faith to a rational response, rather than true Spirit-bearing reality that empties the world of saints. Rationality has never produced a saint. Neither thinking, nor rational faithing, makes saints. Just professors, preachers and the debaters of this age.”

    Amen father. Again, you are not describing Confessional Lutheranism – we really hate rationalism. That said, I think its reasonable for me to assume that you think you are – in which case, if you wrote an article explaining *why* you are (or perhaps you have already written it) I would read it.

    Lex,

    “If I understand correctly what you are asking, the Orthodox Church will not be apostatic (the gates of hell will not prevail), but as far as individuals (such as me, x, y, z) are concerned, yes, we might slip away if we aren’t careful.”

    Lex – you have the crux of what I am saying. My question is Scriptural: as we *know* the love of many will grow cold and the Son of Man wonders whether or not He will find faith on earth, the question of course becomes: how small will the remnant (perhaps within the larger true visible church) be? 7,000 again? Less? But He will preserve His flock – of which we desire to be a part.

    Karen,

    You are always so kind. Thank you.

    Will try to check back again in a few days. Looks like things are dying down here a bit.

    +Nathan

  42. Dino Avatar
    Dino

    Nathan,
    forgive me saying this, but I cannot help thinking : what are you really doing in this Orthodox blog then?

  43. Dino Avatar
    Dino

    I recognize my question to you might have sounded somewhat confrontational, but those post-reformation men you present as saintly are all scholarly, commendable intellectuals, people who spent their lives studying (and rather “theologizing” with their minds far more than praying with their heart).
    But, the uninterrupted stream of saints of the original, surviving Church, exhibits far more than this (post-15th century): it is heaving unlettered, first-hand beholders of God. So, I am not just talking of erudites (from Gregory Palamas to Sophrony Sacharov -even though they too, only “theologized” after the Holy Spirit had birthed Word in their praying heart), no! I allude to unschooled, (‘benighted’ as far as the world is concerned, yet illumined as the first fishermen disciples), authentic theologians (ie: God-bearers) such as Silouan the Athonite and Porphyrios the Kapsokalyvite.
    So it looks to me that your mind is perhaps already made up as to what you are prepared to appreciate or not (by displaying no sincere interest in Orthodoxy and a incessant defence of Reformation), and I therefore fail to see the real validity, the point, of your continual return to the same old stuff.
    I come across a little confrontational again – sorry! How else can I put this? …Outside of this blog, in a crowd of atheists, I would obviously find it impossible to resist coming up and befriending you first, a believer in Christ, but this here is an Orthodox vehemently Christ-believing blog (or else one that attracts persons genuinely attracted to Orthodoxy – others last for no more than a few ‘clarifications’ -if they then do not want to accept those clarifications they kind of give up.)
    An Orthodox would generally yearn to invite others to the fullness of the truth, so that they too can love Christ – the Truth – in the same fullness, and one would like to bring all to Orthodoxy, so that they can unite with Him in that fullness. So that all can enter the stream of first-hand ‘beholders of God’.
    But, (especially now that your real ‘Reformation face’ is presented more clearly in your last comment) if the genuine Orthodox do try to love Christ like this, it is unclear in the extreme what else would you want to offer them from your perspective that is missing them?

  44. MichaelPatrick Avatar
    MichaelPatrick

    Lutheranism and its Reformation offshoots are all so wearisome. So much thinking and arguing about truth instead of seeing and tasting it.

    I second Dino asking Nathan why he doesn’t take it back to his own blog where people who want that stuff may surely find it in abundance.

    I’m sorry if this is uncharitable. It just seems to have crossed the line. At least it has with me.

  45. Michelle Avatar
    Michelle

    Nathan,
    For the sake of this argument I will play along and allow your assertion that Lutherans and Orthodox determine who and what the Church is, how and by who the Scriptures are properly interpreted, etc, by the exact same means. And, thus, I will allow that Lutherans cannot be equated with Protestant Denominations that take a rationalistic approach to these things. What would any of this prove? Nothing. An outsider could look at both claims and conclude that either the Lutherans are wrong and delusional about being the continuation of the One True Ancient Church, or the Orthodox are wrong and delusional about being the the One True Church, or that both are wrong and delusional, but they could never conclude both are right at the same time. Why? Because both Church’s cannot commune together due to the fact that each one charges the other with heresy. The Orthodox charge the Lutherans with the heresy of monergism, which I described in a comment above (which you never rebutted) revealing Lutheran doctrinal positions on conversion, election and predestination that equate with monergism. And Lutherans charge Orthodoxy with the heresy of synergism as it is expressed by Bishop Kallistos Ware, whom I also quoted in my comment above.

    You seem keen on trying to get the Orthodox to agree with you that Lutherans make the exact same claims as the Orthodox concerning interpreting Scripture, and establishing who and what constitutes the Church, but even if you were to succeed in this it doesn’t accomplish anything of substantial importance. Lutherans have fallen outside of the Church, because they have succumbed to the heresy of monergism. All of the Ancient Church would conclude that the Lutherans have deviated from the “living stream,” because all of the Ancient Church agree with Bishop Kallistos Ware’s synergism, which is antithetical and irreconcilable to the Lutheran doctrine I quoted in my previous comment.

    Ill reiterate what others have asked you; If you absolutely believe that the Lutheran Church flows from the living stream of the Ancient Church, and thus must necessarily believe that the Orthodox Church is heretical, then why are you here on this blog? Is your presence an attempt to convert people to Lutheranism?

  46. Sakura_95 Avatar
    Sakura_95

    “Sakura 95, we basically agree. As I wrote in my post answering this one for Lutherans, “Sola Scriptura” simply means that if a conflict arises between the wider Church and its Scriptures, the Scriptures, properly interpreted, must certainly correct the Church. Today’s Church cannot contradict yesterday’s Church, assuming that it was in harmony with, and did not contradict the Scriptures. Based on all the reading I have done in this area, this is what the Fathers of the Church always taught. Which brings me to Father Freeman’s last intriguing remark.”

    My apologies for my late reply.

    But how is the “right interpretation” of Scripture determined? It simply cannot be drawn from reading Scriptures alone. Anyone could do that and even claim that what they believe wrong or not is consistent with that of yesterday’s Church. Even then, during Christianity’s infancy, many Gnostic sects would use the same methodology to demonstrate their “authenticity”, claiming to hold the “Secret sayings of Jesus” by which they claim to be the original church. How then can the Sola Scriptura approach as you defined it resolve such an issue? It would lead to uncertainty given the same methods used by both sides in determining their “authenticity”.

    From this it becomes clear that there must be Tradition which is drawn by Apostolic Succession and complimented by Scripture.

  47. Sakura_95 Avatar
    Sakura_95

    *I made some errors in my comment, it’s supposed to be,

    ” Anyone could do that and even claim that what they believe is right and is consistent with that of yesterday’s Church.”

    I’m sorry for that mistake I made while typing out my comment.

  48. Nathan Avatar

    Sakura 95,

    I am sorry – I did not mean to ignore you. I did not see my name above in your latest post initially, and so passed over it….

    “From this it becomes clear that there must be Tradition which is drawn by Apostolic Succession and complimented by Scripture.”

    Of course. This has always been our church’s position. See my comments to Robert on “October 22, 2014 at 10:40 pm”. In short, part and parcel of the true rule of faith is that it always goes back to the Scriptures.

    +Nathan

  49. Nathan Avatar

    Father,

    If I might ask a brief favor from you…. in light of your deleting two of my previous posts (here and on another thread), I am wondering if you might be willing, at some point (hopefully soon) to let persons know that you did that. I would not want them to think I have no interest in continuing to talk with them. Of course, your house, your rules…..

    +Nathan

  50. Fr. Stephen Freeman Avatar

    Yes. I have deleted some of Nathan’s answers. It is a continuing conversation that needs to end.

    BTW. You might not be aware of how your signature looks to those in Orthodox, Catholic and Anglican circles. The tradition is that a cross + is used by a priest after his name (not a layman). And a cross is used before the name by a bishop.

    Your signature makes you seem to be saying you’re a bishop. Lost in translation.

  51. Nathan Avatar

    Father Stephen,

    Thank you for the kind note – and for the “lost in translation” help as well.

    Best regards,

    Nathan

  52. Dino Avatar
    Dino

    Nathan,
    no worries concerning your answers (to the above questions) which were deleted. I noted them, thanks. God bless you.

  53. Sakura_95 Avatar
    Sakura_95

    “Yes, feel free to highlight “properly interpreted”. There is nothing to hide from there. It’s only right that I include those words, because the Scriptures must indeed be interpreted by the Church, and as to who is the infallible interpreter the answer is the same as it has always been: the faithful remnant in the true visible Church. And no one decided what the Scriptures were. The faithful saints of old simply recognized them – again, universally (homologoumena) – to be so. ”

    This would be a good answer in my opinion but given that there hasn’t been any sort of an “Official Canon” of Scripture within the Church, even since its infancy, it would be quite a stretch to say that the Faithful simply recognized them. The Didache and the Shepard of Hermas were taken to be “Inspired Scriptures” by some of the Saints of old but today, we simply do not see them as such though being profitable for reading of course.

    Besides that the Syriac Christians do not include the Books of 2 Peter, 2 John, 3 John, Jude, Revelation within their canon of Scripture which is the Peshitta. I would acknowledge however that the five books were added in later additions of the compilation but were originally missing.

  54. R Moffat Avatar

    Father
    I come fairly late to the conversation, but I read what I believe to be the first article you wrote on the Bible and, as a Catholic on the road to Orthodoxy, I found the ideas familiar if not completely in tune with what I know as a Catholic. I have also read this more recent article, but I gather there are more and it would be helpful to have links to all of the articles so I could get more background on what you are saying.

    Thank you

  55. Fr. Stephen Freeman Avatar

    R,
    If you look at the drop down tabs on the blog…the one labled “Scripture” and click on the Scripture option, a list of articles on the topic will come up. That would be the best way to get at them.

  56. Dino Avatar
    Dino

    Father,
    I noticed that it is possible to post links without the filter catching these anymore -and the usual waiting for approval of a link has gone. Confused’s (appropriately named) pointless link reminded me.

  57. GK Avatar
    GK

    I was drawn to this article and conversation because of my own serious doubts about ‘sola scriptura’ coming from an evangelical background. Many of the points made in this and other articles speak to and confirm the things I’ve been thinking myself. I have a question that is somewhat related to the article, but more to the content of the comments section that I’ve been reading through. I have little exposure to the Orthodox history and paradigm, so it’s been interesting to find out more through people’s comments who seem to come from an Orthodox perspective. It seems the theme is that Roman Catholics final authority is the papacy, the protestants final authority is their personal hermeneutic of the Scriptures, and for the Orthodox its the Holy Tradition or the Church. I’ve also realized that for the protestants that it’s not actually the “Bible” that is their authority, but their personal interpretation of it. Being an outsider to Orthodoxy, I have the same question. Holy Tradition or the Church as defined by whom? Who gets to name or change the “official” tradition? I assume tradition must change with time. For instance, for most of history, a tradition might be that the earth is flat. Evidence comes out that strongly suggests otherwise. The Tradition changes. I see this as a good thing. Perhaps these questions aren’t even applicable, but I’m ignorant to how the Orthodox see things and am genuinely curious. Thus taking the time to write a comment which I almost never do. Really engaging material here from people who I can tell really care about these matters. Thanks everyone for sharing (though I’m just now seeing it years later and may be a dead thread).

  58. Fr. Stephen Freeman Avatar

    GK,
    Good questions. The Orthodox would see the Scriptures themselves as part of Holy Tradition, even a foundational part. But the content of Holy Tradition can largely be described as the consistent life of the Church in its writings, its canon laws, its Councils, its Liturgies, and the pattern of life that has been handed down. Though certain details vary from time to time and from place to place, there is a remarkable consistency through the centuries even into the present.

    Holy Tradition does not include things like flat earth/round earth – those are worldly or scientific opinions. I would note, as an aside, that at the time of the New Testament and during the early centuries of the Church, that the earth was round (a ball) was not only well-known, but was even known to be roughly 24,000 miles in circumference. The Greeks had calculated that before the time of Christ. “Flat earth” has never been a very big thing or even a common thing except in a very narrow range of time – but has become a popular modern misconception often used to suggest that modernity is superior to everything that came before. What most modern people are woefully ignorant of, however, is history.

    Who gets to decide? Orthodoxy is a single communion of churches, defined by a common life expressed in their common recognition of each other and fellowship in the Body and Blood of Christ in the Holy Eucharist. In the earliest centuries, that common life drew them together to reach a common mind on difficult issues.

    I would recommend reading Timothy Ware’s The Orthodox Church as a great introduction to the Orthodox Church as well as it key place in the history of Christianity.

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