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	<title>Comments for Glory to God for All Things</title>
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	<description>Orthodox Christianity, Culture and Religion, Making the Journey of Faith</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Wed, 22 May 2013 02:15:24 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>Comment on To Behold the Beauty of the Lord by mary benton</title>
		<link>http://glory2godforallthings.com/2013/05/18/to-behold-the-beauty-of-the-lord/#comment-81945</link>
		<dc:creator>mary benton</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 May 2013 02:15:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://glory2godforallthings.com/?p=10944#comment-81945</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&quot;The aesthetics of the 19th century were sheer romanticism. Anglo-Catholicism, when its true history is properly described, was an aesthetic movement.&quot;

Fr. Stephen,

Could you explain a bit more what you mean? &quot;Aesthetic&quot; = &quot;concerned with beauty of the appreciation of beauty&quot; (per online dictionary). How is this different from what you are referring to?

I ask because there is some disparaging tone (possibly rightly deserved) about what you call &quot;an aesthetic movement&quot; and I do not know enough history to understand. I do know that what people perceive to be beautiful (and what I have perceived to be beautiful at different stages of life) varies greatly across individuals, cultures and time periods.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;The aesthetics of the 19th century were sheer romanticism. Anglo-Catholicism, when its true history is properly described, was an aesthetic movement.&#8221;</p>
<p>Fr. Stephen,</p>
<p>Could you explain a bit more what you mean? &#8220;Aesthetic&#8221; = &#8220;concerned with beauty of the appreciation of beauty&#8221; (per online dictionary). How is this different from what you are referring to?</p>
<p>I ask because there is some disparaging tone (possibly rightly deserved) about what you call &#8220;an aesthetic movement&#8221; and I do not know enough history to understand. I do know that what people perceive to be beautiful (and what I have perceived to be beautiful at different stages of life) varies greatly across individuals, cultures and time periods.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Beauty and the Face of God by Lina</title>
		<link>http://glory2godforallthings.com/2013/05/20/beauty-and-the-face-of-god-2/#comment-81944</link>
		<dc:creator>Lina</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 May 2013 02:05:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://glory2godforallthings.com/?p=10971#comment-81944</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Scott, you reminded me of an experience I had in the aftermath of the earthquake in Haiti.  I was a volunteer in a makeshift clinic.  Injured persons were arriving constantly. The surgery was operating 24 hours.  Beds were mattresses on the floor. Four bedpans for 200 people in my section and etc etc. People from around the world had responded to come there and various languages could be heard floating through the air. And yet God&#039;s peace permeated the whole place. It was absolutely incredible. It was raun by the Baptists but we were a mixed bag of Christians and maybe non Christians for all I know.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Scott, you reminded me of an experience I had in the aftermath of the earthquake in Haiti.  I was a volunteer in a makeshift clinic.  Injured persons were arriving constantly. The surgery was operating 24 hours.  Beds were mattresses on the floor. Four bedpans for 200 people in my section and etc etc. People from around the world had responded to come there and various languages could be heard floating through the air. And yet God&#8217;s peace permeated the whole place. It was absolutely incredible. It was raun by the Baptists but we were a mixed bag of Christians and maybe non Christians for all I know.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Beauty and the Face of God by fatherstephen</title>
		<link>http://glory2godforallthings.com/2013/05/20/beauty-and-the-face-of-god-2/#comment-81942</link>
		<dc:creator>fatherstephen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 May 2013 00:00:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://glory2godforallthings.com/?p=10971#comment-81942</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Byron,
Traditionally we are told to find the humility by considering ourselves to be the least of all, the worst of all. You&#039;re right - we should see Christ in the face of all and each. I will say that my own practice isn&#039;t so much to look for the Beauty as it is to look for Christ. Beauty is not so hard to see - it&#039;s almost obvious. It is the next question - how does this reveal Christ that helps with discernment.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Byron,<br />
Traditionally we are told to find the humility by considering ourselves to be the least of all, the worst of all. You&#8217;re right &#8211; we should see Christ in the face of all and each. I will say that my own practice isn&#8217;t so much to look for the Beauty as it is to look for Christ. Beauty is not so hard to see &#8211; it&#8217;s almost obvious. It is the next question &#8211; how does this reveal Christ that helps with discernment.</p>
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		<title>Comment on To Behold the Beauty of the Lord by fatherstephen</title>
		<link>http://glory2godforallthings.com/2013/05/18/to-behold-the-beauty-of-the-lord/#comment-81941</link>
		<dc:creator>fatherstephen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 May 2013 23:56:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://glory2godforallthings.com/?p=10944#comment-81941</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Michael,
I agree, which is why I qualified my statement by saying, &quot;At its highest level.&quot; Aesthetics falls short of true perception - but is not useless. True perception, as I am describing it, would include participation (communion). At that level, it is indeed worship - which is why discernment is required. One reason that pornography is so devastating is that we not only &quot;see&quot; it, we see it in a manner that is indeed &quot;participation&quot; (communion). This is fueled largely by eros, misdirected. But, oddly, would be an example (however misguided and misdirected) of union and participation. I often try to think of examples for the purpose of teaching people about the true nature of worship (so few have much experience at all in this). I have thought about the example of such participation, but have avoided using it for obvious reasons.

But, as seen in the article, Dostoevsky sees it, profoundly. He was amazingly insightful. 

PJ, Those are outstanding examples as well. The aesthetics of the 19th century were sheer romanticism. Anglo-Catholicism, when its true history is properly described, was an aesthetic movement. It is, I think, why Newman became a Roman Catholic - he was not an aesthete, but the real thing. I can&#039;t begin to describe the terrible conversations I suffered, and shared, as a High Church Anglican (particularly in my seminary days). The aesthetic judging, the preciousness! It was awful and soul-destroying. I came to loathe it. I can&#039;t bear it when I hear it within Orthodoxy (where it is generally rare but not utterly absent, as it can also be found within Catholicism). Nothing could be a more banal and empty expression of Post-Modernism than a modernist Episcopal liturgy, with all of the medieval trappings and none of the medieval faith. 

I have seen plenty of examples of fairly &quot;shabby&quot; vestments on Orthodox priests (especially in the American missions) where we start off with hand-me-downs. I had a set that smelled hundreds of years old (if you get my meaning). But the &quot;shabbiness&quot; (including the make-shift settings we have to use to set up Church in warehouses, store-fronts, etc.), still reveals true beauty - precisely because of that in which it participates! True beauty is never merely on the surface - it is profound and possessed of depth - even infinity. The picture I posted with one of these articles on beauty is of a liturgy in the setting of one of the buildings ravaged by the Soviet period. Yet is beauty is truly profound! Maybe even enhanced for the eye that can see!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Michael,<br />
I agree, which is why I qualified my statement by saying, &#8220;At its highest level.&#8221; Aesthetics falls short of true perception &#8211; but is not useless. True perception, as I am describing it, would include participation (communion). At that level, it is indeed worship &#8211; which is why discernment is required. One reason that pornography is so devastating is that we not only &#8220;see&#8221; it, we see it in a manner that is indeed &#8220;participation&#8221; (communion). This is fueled largely by eros, misdirected. But, oddly, would be an example (however misguided and misdirected) of union and participation. I often try to think of examples for the purpose of teaching people about the true nature of worship (so few have much experience at all in this). I have thought about the example of such participation, but have avoided using it for obvious reasons.</p>
<p>But, as seen in the article, Dostoevsky sees it, profoundly. He was amazingly insightful. </p>
<p>PJ, Those are outstanding examples as well. The aesthetics of the 19th century were sheer romanticism. Anglo-Catholicism, when its true history is properly described, was an aesthetic movement. It is, I think, why Newman became a Roman Catholic &#8211; he was not an aesthete, but the real thing. I can&#8217;t begin to describe the terrible conversations I suffered, and shared, as a High Church Anglican (particularly in my seminary days). The aesthetic judging, the preciousness! It was awful and soul-destroying. I came to loathe it. I can&#8217;t bear it when I hear it within Orthodoxy (where it is generally rare but not utterly absent, as it can also be found within Catholicism). Nothing could be a more banal and empty expression of Post-Modernism than a modernist Episcopal liturgy, with all of the medieval trappings and none of the medieval faith. </p>
<p>I have seen plenty of examples of fairly &#8220;shabby&#8221; vestments on Orthodox priests (especially in the American missions) where we start off with hand-me-downs. I had a set that smelled hundreds of years old (if you get my meaning). But the &#8220;shabbiness&#8221; (including the make-shift settings we have to use to set up Church in warehouses, store-fronts, etc.), still reveals true beauty &#8211; precisely because of that in which it participates! True beauty is never merely on the surface &#8211; it is profound and possessed of depth &#8211; even infinity. The picture I posted with one of these articles on beauty is of a liturgy in the setting of one of the buildings ravaged by the Soviet period. Yet is beauty is truly profound! Maybe even enhanced for the eye that can see!</p>
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		<title>Comment on To Behold the Beauty of the Lord by Michael Bauman</title>
		<link>http://glory2godforallthings.com/2013/05/18/to-behold-the-beauty-of-the-lord/#comment-81940</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael Bauman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 May 2013 22:14:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://glory2godforallthings.com/?p=10944#comment-81940</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Eventually such unreal beauty eventually deteriorates into parody.  Have you seen the rainbow vestments some Anglicans wear?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Eventually such unreal beauty eventually deteriorates into parody.  Have you seen the rainbow vestments some Anglicans wear?</p>
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		<title>Comment on To Behold the Beauty of the Lord by PJ</title>
		<link>http://glory2godforallthings.com/2013/05/18/to-behold-the-beauty-of-the-lord/#comment-81939</link>
		<dc:creator>PJ</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 May 2013 21:42:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://glory2godforallthings.com/?p=10944#comment-81939</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Michael,

I agree. There is a sort of heresy of aestheticism. It&#039;s not uncommon, for instance, among certain liberal and modernistic high church Anglicans, whose liturgies are beautiful but utterly meaningless.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Michael,</p>
<p>I agree. There is a sort of heresy of aestheticism. It&#8217;s not uncommon, for instance, among certain liberal and modernistic high church Anglicans, whose liturgies are beautiful but utterly meaningless.</p>
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		<title>Comment on To Behold the Beauty of the Lord by Michael Bauman</title>
		<link>http://glory2godforallthings.com/2013/05/18/to-behold-the-beauty-of-the-lord/#comment-81937</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael Bauman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 May 2013 20:50:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://glory2godforallthings.com/?p=10944#comment-81937</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Father,  the appreciation of beauty can be just an esthetic experience.  To me worship entails, also, the acknowledgement of the presence. For Christians, the personal presence of our Lord.  Beauty can invoke the openness to His presence, but it alone is not sufficient.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Father,  the appreciation of beauty can be just an esthetic experience.  To me worship entails, also, the acknowledgement of the presence. For Christians, the personal presence of our Lord.  Beauty can invoke the openness to His presence, but it alone is not sufficient.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Harlots and Drunkards at the Last Banquet by Paula Hughes</title>
		<link>http://glory2godforallthings.com/2012/12/03/harlots-and-drunkards-at-the-last-banquet/#comment-81936</link>
		<dc:creator>Paula Hughes</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 May 2013 20:43:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://glory2godforallthings.com/?p=9933#comment-81936</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[John Shores,
I think that you are actually Orthodox! Every protest you make is fully dealt with in Orthodoxy but not in Western religions.  I recognize your sensitive and principled questions as the very same ones I asked  before becoming Orthodox  and after I had trid all the other religions. And  I held the same suspicion and distaste for hypocrisy, self- righteousness ,elitism, judgmentmentalism and sham rituals. It was a wonderful surprise, once  I got past what seemed so odd to the Western eye in Orthodoxy , and began to comprehend the richness and depth and humanness of the Church. We pray for all mankind, not just ourselves, BTW.

We believe in equality of people before God. We are all sinners and must not judge others. God is merciful even to me &#039;the first among sinners&#039; as we say in our communion prayer. We are all equally undeserving of God&#039;s mercy ,yet we have hope in it. And we have real help in struggling with our sins. We have confession and counsel( not punishment) and communion to heal our diseases. Read St Ephraim&#039;s prayer. God is actively at work within us.
.
If anything can lead a person to humility, it is the hopeful assurance that God Himself is working within us.  This is the Prayer of St. Philaret of Moscow

Lord, I do not know what to beg of You;
You alone know what is needed for me.
You love me more than I know
how to love You.
O Father, give to Your  slave that for which I do 
not even know how to beg.
I do not dare to ask for either a cross
or for consolation;
I am only standing before You
with my heart open to You.
You see my needs, which I do not even know.
See and deal with me according to Your mercy.
Purge and heal me, humble me and raise me;
I am in awe before You
and I am silent before Your will
and  unfathomable ways for me.
I am bringing myself as a sacrifice to You;
teach me to pray.
And You,Yourself, pray within me. Amen 

Orthodoxy is  not legalistic and punitive, but understanding of  our frail humanity and our need of healing  It may look ritualistic and overly structured, but once you get familiar   with it,you find a rich and deep and loving home. 

 I recommend that you read the Church Fathers. Or listen to the podcast &#039;A Word from the Holy Fathers&#039;  on Ancient Faith Radio on the internet. God bless your honest search.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>John Shores,<br />
I think that you are actually Orthodox! Every protest you make is fully dealt with in Orthodoxy but not in Western religions.  I recognize your sensitive and principled questions as the very same ones I asked  before becoming Orthodox  and after I had trid all the other religions. And  I held the same suspicion and distaste for hypocrisy, self- righteousness ,elitism, judgmentmentalism and sham rituals. It was a wonderful surprise, once  I got past what seemed so odd to the Western eye in Orthodoxy , and began to comprehend the richness and depth and humanness of the Church. We pray for all mankind, not just ourselves, BTW.</p>
<p>We believe in equality of people before God. We are all sinners and must not judge others. God is merciful even to me &#8216;the first among sinners&#8217; as we say in our communion prayer. We are all equally undeserving of God&#8217;s mercy ,yet we have hope in it. And we have real help in struggling with our sins. We have confession and counsel( not punishment) and communion to heal our diseases. Read St Ephraim&#8217;s prayer. God is actively at work within us.<br />
.<br />
If anything can lead a person to humility, it is the hopeful assurance that God Himself is working within us.  This is the Prayer of St. Philaret of Moscow</p>
<p>Lord, I do not know what to beg of You;<br />
You alone know what is needed for me.<br />
You love me more than I know<br />
how to love You.<br />
O Father, give to Your  slave that for which I do<br />
not even know how to beg.<br />
I do not dare to ask for either a cross<br />
or for consolation;<br />
I am only standing before You<br />
with my heart open to You.<br />
You see my needs, which I do not even know.<br />
See and deal with me according to Your mercy.<br />
Purge and heal me, humble me and raise me;<br />
I am in awe before You<br />
and I am silent before Your will<br />
and  unfathomable ways for me.<br />
I am bringing myself as a sacrifice to You;<br />
teach me to pray.<br />
And You,Yourself, pray within me. Amen </p>
<p>Orthodoxy is  not legalistic and punitive, but understanding of  our frail humanity and our need of healing  It may look ritualistic and overly structured, but once you get familiar   with it,you find a rich and deep and loving home. </p>
<p> I recommend that you read the Church Fathers. Or listen to the podcast &#8216;A Word from the Holy Fathers&#8217;  on Ancient Faith Radio on the internet. God bless your honest search.</p>
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		<title>Comment on To Behold the Beauty of the Lord by drewster2000</title>
		<link>http://glory2godforallthings.com/2013/05/18/to-behold-the-beauty-of-the-lord/#comment-81933</link>
		<dc:creator>drewster2000</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 May 2013 18:51:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://glory2godforallthings.com/?p=10944#comment-81933</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Amen!!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Amen!!</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>Comment on To Behold the Beauty of the Lord by fatherstephen</title>
		<link>http://glory2godforallthings.com/2013/05/18/to-behold-the-beauty-of-the-lord/#comment-81928</link>
		<dc:creator>fatherstephen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 May 2013 17:31:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://glory2godforallthings.com/?p=10944#comment-81928</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Drewster,
&quot;Human beings united in the act of appreciating beauty,&quot; is at its highest level, a definition of worship.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Drewster,<br />
&#8220;Human beings united in the act of appreciating beauty,&#8221; is at its highest level, a definition of worship.</p>
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