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	<title>Comments on: The Invisible Christian</title>
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	<description>Orthodox Christianity, Culture and Religion, Making the Journey of Faith</description>
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		<title>By: markbasil</title>
		<link>http://glory2godforallthings.com/2012/05/13/the-invisible-christian/#comment-58185</link>
		<dc:creator>markbasil</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 19 May 2012 03:02:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://glory2godforallthings.com/?p=8757#comment-58185</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[PJ, the human heart is complicated and deeply mysterious.  When I write of God deceiving me, the &quot;me&quot; I am referring to is not the real me that God has created.  (on the Last Day, Christ will tell those without mercy &quot;Depart from me &lt;i&gt;for I never knew you&lt;/i&gt;&quot;).

Think of Lewis&#039;s Emeth and Aslan relationship; though outwardly he served the false god, his heart had good in it and this Aslan took to himself.

In my case, my mind was tangled up and confused about Jesus and the Christian faith.  Because of this confusion I would outwardly have rejected the true Christian Way.  This &quot;false me&quot;- which was dominant and in control- is not the real me in the image and likeness of Christ.  This false self was indeed deceived by God, that my true being buried below might be raised up from the grave.

It is less dramatic for me than for St Paul&#039;s scales falling from his eyes, but it is a similar matter of the &quot;secret heart&quot; being something quite hidden even from self-knowledge.
Paul of course write about this division within himself and the conflict regarding his true identity in Romans 7:
&lt;i&gt;We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do.  And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good.  As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me.  For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out.  For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing.  Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.

 So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me.  For in my inner being I delight in God’s law;  but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me.  What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death?  Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord! &lt;/i&gt;

Love;
-Mark Basil]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>PJ, the human heart is complicated and deeply mysterious.  When I write of God deceiving me, the &#8220;me&#8221; I am referring to is not the real me that God has created.  (on the Last Day, Christ will tell those without mercy &#8220;Depart from me <i>for I never knew you</i>&#8220;).</p>
<p>Think of Lewis&#8217;s Emeth and Aslan relationship; though outwardly he served the false god, his heart had good in it and this Aslan took to himself.</p>
<p>In my case, my mind was tangled up and confused about Jesus and the Christian faith.  Because of this confusion I would outwardly have rejected the true Christian Way.  This &#8220;false me&#8221;- which was dominant and in control- is not the real me in the image and likeness of Christ.  This false self was indeed deceived by God, that my true being buried below might be raised up from the grave.</p>
<p>It is less dramatic for me than for St Paul&#8217;s scales falling from his eyes, but it is a similar matter of the &#8220;secret heart&#8221; being something quite hidden even from self-knowledge.<br />
Paul of course write about this division within himself and the conflict regarding his true identity in Romans 7:<br />
<i>We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do.  And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good.  As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me.  For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out.  For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing.  Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.</p>
<p> So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me.  For in my inner being I delight in God’s law;  but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me.  What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death?  Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord! </i></p>
<p>Love;<br />
-Mark Basil</p>
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		<title>By: PJ</title>
		<link>http://glory2godforallthings.com/2012/05/13/the-invisible-christian/#comment-58182</link>
		<dc:creator>PJ</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 19 May 2012 00:35:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://glory2godforallthings.com/?p=8757#comment-58182</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[God tricked you? God is a deceiver? A trickster? This seems a strange notion to me.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>God tricked you? God is a deceiver? A trickster? This seems a strange notion to me.</p>
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		<title>By: markbasil</title>
		<link>http://glory2godforallthings.com/2012/05/13/the-invisible-christian/#comment-58178</link>
		<dc:creator>markbasil</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 May 2012 20:38:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://glory2godforallthings.com/?p=8757#comment-58178</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I agree with Michael Bauman.
I take myself as an example.  I was raised somewhat liberal, very faithful, extremely social-justice, political activisitic anabaptist-inclined Evangelical-Protestant Christian.

Did I love Jesus and Jesus love me?  Well, that&#039;s a very complicated answer.  On the one hand, of course!  On the other hand, was I really experiencing salvation?  I dont know.  Certainly God was &quot;setting things up&quot; in my heart for my salvation.

However, &#039;back then&#039;, if a simple Orthodox Christian had explained in clear, honest terms what Orthodoxy was (prayer life, asceticism, inner work of the heart, silence, etc.), I would have said, &quot;thanks but no thanks.&quot;
This is because my jaundiced view of Jesus would have persuaded me that Orthodoxy had it wrong.


So, how did I become Orthodox?  Long story short, I was attracted to certain superficial similarities between Orthodox dogma and my very eccentric &#039;un-Evangelical&#039; theology (esp. universalism, pacifism, etc.).  I made vast assumptions about what Orthodoxy must *really* be, that lined up nicely with what I already believed or wanted to believe.  Of course I met &quot;a few good men&quot; who lived attractive Orthodox Christian lives, and of course I was an utter, desperate mess, so I converted.
But what sort of conversion was this?!
Was my heart really ready to accept what Orthodoxy *really* is?  Not at all!  I was a deluded, puffed up, fragmented mess!  Because of how sick I was, if I had been fed any &#039;solid food&#039; from the Tradition, I would have vomited it up.

What followed my baptism was a devastating, agonizing, ongoing discovery that I had been duped!  Again and I again I saw how the Orthodoxy I thought I accepted was actually very different from the genuine Tradition.
Every time, at every step, I had to make a new decision from the depths of my heart whether to accept or reject this rebuke.  It was really nausiating and brings tears to my eyes when I think back to what Christ brought me through, to rescue me and save my life.

A couple years after being baptized, God arranged for my meeting with Fr Gregory, an old monk who happened to live not far away.  Fr Gregory worked with me for two years as a holy physician, and now I can say that it was really him who baptized me into Orthodoxy.  He &#039;traditioned&#039; the living faith to me, he prepared me to really receive the Holy Spirit.



So, I agree with Michael Bauman.
There is only One Christ- and the &#039;flavour(s) of jesus&#039; I happened to enjoy before Orthodoxy were not really Him.
It was Him all along who worked patiently through my theological and spiritual &#039;tastes&#039; and perversions, to prepare me for Himself.  But there is a world of difference between the sort of &#039;christianity&#039; I participated in before, and that which has been given to me as life, peace, and true joy now.
I would never have &#039;chosen&#039; this latter if I saw it honestly presented to me, outlined in straighforward theological and spiritual terminology.
God tricked me, utterly deceived me- He found the real me deeply burried and converted him, but the &#039;me&#039; that had control and made decisions was deceived.

Love;
-Mark Basil]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree with Michael Bauman.<br />
I take myself as an example.  I was raised somewhat liberal, very faithful, extremely social-justice, political activisitic anabaptist-inclined Evangelical-Protestant Christian.</p>
<p>Did I love Jesus and Jesus love me?  Well, that&#8217;s a very complicated answer.  On the one hand, of course!  On the other hand, was I really experiencing salvation?  I dont know.  Certainly God was &#8220;setting things up&#8221; in my heart for my salvation.</p>
<p>However, &#8216;back then&#8217;, if a simple Orthodox Christian had explained in clear, honest terms what Orthodoxy was (prayer life, asceticism, inner work of the heart, silence, etc.), I would have said, &#8220;thanks but no thanks.&#8221;<br />
This is because my jaundiced view of Jesus would have persuaded me that Orthodoxy had it wrong.</p>
<p>So, how did I become Orthodox?  Long story short, I was attracted to certain superficial similarities between Orthodox dogma and my very eccentric &#8216;un-Evangelical&#8217; theology (esp. universalism, pacifism, etc.).  I made vast assumptions about what Orthodoxy must *really* be, that lined up nicely with what I already believed or wanted to believe.  Of course I met &#8220;a few good men&#8221; who lived attractive Orthodox Christian lives, and of course I was an utter, desperate mess, so I converted.<br />
But what sort of conversion was this?!<br />
Was my heart really ready to accept what Orthodoxy *really* is?  Not at all!  I was a deluded, puffed up, fragmented mess!  Because of how sick I was, if I had been fed any &#8216;solid food&#8217; from the Tradition, I would have vomited it up.</p>
<p>What followed my baptism was a devastating, agonizing, ongoing discovery that I had been duped!  Again and I again I saw how the Orthodoxy I thought I accepted was actually very different from the genuine Tradition.<br />
Every time, at every step, I had to make a new decision from the depths of my heart whether to accept or reject this rebuke.  It was really nausiating and brings tears to my eyes when I think back to what Christ brought me through, to rescue me and save my life.</p>
<p>A couple years after being baptized, God arranged for my meeting with Fr Gregory, an old monk who happened to live not far away.  Fr Gregory worked with me for two years as a holy physician, and now I can say that it was really him who baptized me into Orthodoxy.  He &#8216;traditioned&#8217; the living faith to me, he prepared me to really receive the Holy Spirit.</p>
<p>So, I agree with Michael Bauman.<br />
There is only One Christ- and the &#8216;flavour(s) of jesus&#8217; I happened to enjoy before Orthodoxy were not really Him.<br />
It was Him all along who worked patiently through my theological and spiritual &#8216;tastes&#8217; and perversions, to prepare me for Himself.  But there is a world of difference between the sort of &#8216;christianity&#8217; I participated in before, and that which has been given to me as life, peace, and true joy now.<br />
I would never have &#8216;chosen&#8217; this latter if I saw it honestly presented to me, outlined in straighforward theological and spiritual terminology.<br />
God tricked me, utterly deceived me- He found the real me deeply burried and converted him, but the &#8216;me&#8217; that had control and made decisions was deceived.</p>
<p>Love;<br />
-Mark Basil</p>
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		<title>By: Michael Bauman</title>
		<link>http://glory2godforallthings.com/2012/05/13/the-invisible-christian/#comment-58174</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael Bauman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 May 2012 19:32:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://glory2godforallthings.com/?p=8757#comment-58174</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Ah, but PJ, who drew you into the life of prayer?  

Some are drawn, some ask, some are dragged kicking and screaming (methaphorically speaking).  

We have to make the first step.  Later even if we think we can turn away, He is always there to remind us and turn us back.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ah, but PJ, who drew you into the life of prayer?  </p>
<p>Some are drawn, some ask, some are dragged kicking and screaming (methaphorically speaking).  </p>
<p>We have to make the first step.  Later even if we think we can turn away, He is always there to remind us and turn us back.</p>
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		<title>By: PJ</title>
		<link>http://glory2godforallthings.com/2012/05/13/the-invisible-christian/#comment-58168</link>
		<dc:creator>PJ</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 May 2012 14:22:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://glory2godforallthings.com/?p=8757#comment-58168</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Michael,

&quot;PJ, doctrine wins few converts fewer still disciples. it is the person of Jesus Christ and wanting to know Him that is the crux. The principal statement of faith that one makes in the Orthodox sacrament of baptism is wanting to be one with Christ and becoming one with Christ. &quot;

I don&#039;t know. I think people are drawn to God in many different ways. I certainly wasn&#039;t looking to become one with the person of Christ. I didn&#039;t even know such a thing was possible. My faith was purely intellectual for a long time: I believed the faith was true and that was that. It was only later that I began to enter into the life of prayer and really encounter the &quot;person&quot; of Christ and the reality of God. Even now, I am in the &quot;shallow end,&quot; so to speak. Of course, the Spirit was always at work, though I knew it not . . .]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Michael,</p>
<p>&#8220;PJ, doctrine wins few converts fewer still disciples. it is the person of Jesus Christ and wanting to know Him that is the crux. The principal statement of faith that one makes in the Orthodox sacrament of baptism is wanting to be one with Christ and becoming one with Christ. &#8221;</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t know. I think people are drawn to God in many different ways. I certainly wasn&#8217;t looking to become one with the person of Christ. I didn&#8217;t even know such a thing was possible. My faith was purely intellectual for a long time: I believed the faith was true and that was that. It was only later that I began to enter into the life of prayer and really encounter the &#8220;person&#8221; of Christ and the reality of God. Even now, I am in the &#8220;shallow end,&#8221; so to speak. Of course, the Spirit was always at work, though I knew it not . . .</p>
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		<title>By: dinoship</title>
		<link>http://glory2godforallthings.com/2012/05/13/the-invisible-christian/#comment-58156</link>
		<dc:creator>dinoship</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 May 2012 10:23:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://glory2godforallthings.com/?p=8757#comment-58156</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[However, I would also like to sort of go against what I just said by adding that, no matter which of the two comparisons one encounters, a person who has &quot;100&quot; in him, will take away 100, whether the speaker speaks 5, 50 or 500 -that&#039;s what he will take away with him...]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>However, I would also like to sort of go against what I just said by adding that, no matter which of the two comparisons one encounters, a person who has &#8220;100&#8243; in him, will take away 100, whether the speaker speaks 5, 50 or 500 -that&#8217;s what he will take away with him&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: dinoship</title>
		<link>http://glory2godforallthings.com/2012/05/13/the-invisible-christian/#comment-58155</link>
		<dc:creator>dinoship</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 May 2012 10:16:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://glory2godforallthings.com/?p=8757#comment-58155</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I remember the following comparison which emerged in me after encountering two very, very different approaches to &quot;converting&quot;:

The first one was a, more or less, failed attempt using impressive arguments and robust reasoning by a formidable mind. He demolished all opposition in one of those heated conversations which sometimes take place concerning Christianity, with his admirable eloquence. He gave his opponents food for thought possibly, but their lives defaulted back to agnosticism eventually.

Now, the second one was a famous Elder, (o.k. he wore a cassock, but that is not what spoke the loudest, it was rather his unshakeable Joy and Faith, Freedom, Love, Fire, and the nature of his countenance and boiling internal Prayer). He never spoke a single word about Christ - he almost avoided it - but, he did not need to! ...as the others all agreed they felt that they had &#039;seen&#039; Christ Himself afterwards (like Luke and Cleopas), and he has been &quot;implanted&quot; in their hearts, and is still doing his &#039;work&#039; in it... 
When he eventually did talk (after being pressed on the matter of faith) he said similar &#039;words&#039; to the other person (the first comparison), but, boy! did those words carry tons more weight and authority!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I remember the following comparison which emerged in me after encountering two very, very different approaches to &#8220;converting&#8221;:</p>
<p>The first one was a, more or less, failed attempt using impressive arguments and robust reasoning by a formidable mind. He demolished all opposition in one of those heated conversations which sometimes take place concerning Christianity, with his admirable eloquence. He gave his opponents food for thought possibly, but their lives defaulted back to agnosticism eventually.</p>
<p>Now, the second one was a famous Elder, (o.k. he wore a cassock, but that is not what spoke the loudest, it was rather his unshakeable Joy and Faith, Freedom, Love, Fire, and the nature of his countenance and boiling internal Prayer). He never spoke a single word about Christ &#8211; he almost avoided it &#8211; but, he did not need to! &#8230;as the others all agreed they felt that they had &#8216;seen&#8217; Christ Himself afterwards (like Luke and Cleopas), and he has been &#8220;implanted&#8221; in their hearts, and is still doing his &#8216;work&#8217; in it&#8230;<br />
When he eventually did talk (after being pressed on the matter of faith) he said similar &#8216;words&#8217; to the other person (the first comparison), but, boy! did those words carry tons more weight and authority!</p>
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		<title>By: fatherstephen</title>
		<link>http://glory2godforallthings.com/2012/05/13/the-invisible-christian/#comment-58140</link>
		<dc:creator>fatherstephen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 May 2012 01:05:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://glory2godforallthings.com/?p=8757#comment-58140</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Michael,
I agree. I think that conversion also includes an instinctive search for &quot;what does that look like?&quot; We cannot become something (or someone) that we do not see. The first Christian that I ever met who struck me as attractive was a priest. It was not great and powerful, but it was the first adult who struck me that way (I was 15 at the time). I later met a &quot;Jesus freak&quot; who struck me that way, and drew me much deeper into the faith. 

The older I&#039;ve become, the less often I find such affinities. But such persons have not disappeared from my life. Thank God.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Michael,<br />
I agree. I think that conversion also includes an instinctive search for &#8220;what does that look like?&#8221; We cannot become something (or someone) that we do not see. The first Christian that I ever met who struck me as attractive was a priest. It was not great and powerful, but it was the first adult who struck me that way (I was 15 at the time). I later met a &#8220;Jesus freak&#8221; who struck me that way, and drew me much deeper into the faith. </p>
<p>The older I&#8217;ve become, the less often I find such affinities. But such persons have not disappeared from my life. Thank God.</p>
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		<title>By: Michael Bauman</title>
		<link>http://glory2godforallthings.com/2012/05/13/the-invisible-christian/#comment-58136</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael Bauman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 May 2012 23:52:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://glory2godforallthings.com/?p=8757#comment-58136</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[PJ, doctrine wins few converts fewer still disciples.   it is the person of Jesus Christ and wanting to know Him that is the crux.  The principal statement of faith that one makes in the Orthodox sacrament of baptism is wanting to be one with Christ and becoming one with Christ.  

As long as someone desires anything else, it is easy to be led astray with itching ears.   

I personally do not believe that any other human being can fire up that longing for the truth.  Another human being may slightly unveil the truth in another&#039;s heart, but that truth must be in good ground and be nurtured in order to grow and bring forth fruit itself.   

All we can do when we are given the opportunity is to show forth what we know either in words or deeds.  Mostly we will do that poorly but God gives the increase.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>PJ, doctrine wins few converts fewer still disciples.   it is the person of Jesus Christ and wanting to know Him that is the crux.  The principal statement of faith that one makes in the Orthodox sacrament of baptism is wanting to be one with Christ and becoming one with Christ.  </p>
<p>As long as someone desires anything else, it is easy to be led astray with itching ears.   </p>
<p>I personally do not believe that any other human being can fire up that longing for the truth.  Another human being may slightly unveil the truth in another&#8217;s heart, but that truth must be in good ground and be nurtured in order to grow and bring forth fruit itself.   </p>
<p>All we can do when we are given the opportunity is to show forth what we know either in words or deeds.  Mostly we will do that poorly but God gives the increase.</p>
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		<title>By: PJ</title>
		<link>http://glory2godforallthings.com/2012/05/13/the-invisible-christian/#comment-58113</link>
		<dc:creator>PJ</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 May 2012 15:54:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://glory2godforallthings.com/?p=8757#comment-58113</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I once shared a hospital room with a JW for about a week. He was a little slow: when I said something about Arianism, he cried defensively, &quot;I&#039;m not a Nazi!&quot; He could not understand the difference between nature and person, which made explaining the Trinity a challenge. And he bought into all sorts of myths: the great apostasy, the intentional editing of John 1:1, the whore of Babylon, and so on. (Needless to say, he was horrified when a priest came to give me absolution and communion.)

Despite all this, he was very gentle and very kind. He believed what he believed, but he was not so much concerned with dogma as he was charitable and merciful living. 

I learned much from the experience. First, I am incredibly weak: how hard it was for me to see him as a human being rather than a Jehovah&#039;s Witness! Second, we orthodox Christians do a rather pitiful job of explaining crucial dogmas like the Trinity and the divinity of Christ.

I do believe they&#039;re a cult. The fact that he couldn&#039;t read any non-JW material was more than a tad disturbing. But until Christians start (a) living Christlike lives and (b) proclaiming the Gospel with clarity and intelligence, who can we blame but ourselves?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I once shared a hospital room with a JW for about a week. He was a little slow: when I said something about Arianism, he cried defensively, &#8220;I&#8217;m not a Nazi!&#8221; He could not understand the difference between nature and person, which made explaining the Trinity a challenge. And he bought into all sorts of myths: the great apostasy, the intentional editing of John 1:1, the whore of Babylon, and so on. (Needless to say, he was horrified when a priest came to give me absolution and communion.)</p>
<p>Despite all this, he was very gentle and very kind. He believed what he believed, but he was not so much concerned with dogma as he was charitable and merciful living. </p>
<p>I learned much from the experience. First, I am incredibly weak: how hard it was for me to see him as a human being rather than a Jehovah&#8217;s Witness! Second, we orthodox Christians do a rather pitiful job of explaining crucial dogmas like the Trinity and the divinity of Christ.</p>
<p>I do believe they&#8217;re a cult. The fact that he couldn&#8217;t read any non-JW material was more than a tad disturbing. But until Christians start (a) living Christlike lives and (b) proclaiming the Gospel with clarity and intelligence, who can we blame but ourselves?</p>
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