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	<title>Comments on: To Know What You Cannot Know</title>
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	<link>http://glory2godforallthings.com/2012/04/18/to-know-what-you-cannot-know/</link>
	<description>Orthodox Christianity, Culture and Religion, Making the Journey of Faith</description>
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		<title>By: fatherstephen</title>
		<link>http://glory2godforallthings.com/2012/04/18/to-know-what-you-cannot-know/#comment-57329</link>
		<dc:creator>fatherstephen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 May 2012 11:28:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://glory2godforallthings.com/?p=8615#comment-57329</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Ron,
The quote is from memory - I&#039;ll have to track it down. It may take a bit... The point of the quote, of course, is the distinction it makes between the being of the Uncreated and the being of the created. ]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ron,<br />
The quote is from memory &#8211; I&#8217;ll have to track it down. It may take a bit&#8230; The point of the quote, of course, is the distinction it makes between the being of the Uncreated and the being of the created. </p>
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		<title>By: Andrew</title>
		<link>http://glory2godforallthings.com/2012/04/18/to-know-what-you-cannot-know/#comment-57321</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 May 2012 06:55:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://glory2godforallthings.com/?p=8615#comment-57321</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[...now we&#039;re talking. :)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8230;now we&#8217;re talking. <img src='http://glory2godforallthings.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Ron</title>
		<link>http://glory2godforallthings.com/2012/04/18/to-know-what-you-cannot-know/#comment-57316</link>
		<dc:creator>Ron</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 May 2012 00:20:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://glory2godforallthings.com/?p=8615#comment-57316</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Fr. Stephen, what is the source of the St. Gregory quote in the fourth paragraph?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Fr. Stephen, what is the source of the St. Gregory quote in the fourth paragraph?</p>
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		<title>By: Karen</title>
		<link>http://glory2godforallthings.com/2012/04/18/to-know-what-you-cannot-know/#comment-56932</link>
		<dc:creator>Karen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Apr 2012 13:34:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://glory2godforallthings.com/?p=8615#comment-56932</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Thanks, all! I will make some suggestions to the children&#039;s and the teaching pastors at my husband&#039;s church. At least it might get them thinking a little more about these things.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks, all! I will make some suggestions to the children&#8217;s and the teaching pastors at my husband&#8217;s church. At least it might get them thinking a little more about these things.</p>
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		<title>By: Philip Jude</title>
		<link>http://glory2godforallthings.com/2012/04/18/to-know-what-you-cannot-know/#comment-56927</link>
		<dc:creator>Philip Jude</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Apr 2012 12:32:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://glory2godforallthings.com/?p=8615#comment-56927</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Karen,

Why don&#039;t you suggest that they simply illustrate the true parables of Christ? 

Peggy,

If you are still in contact with that Jewish fellow, you might recommend, &quot;Jesus and the Jewish Roots of the Eucharist&quot; by Dr. Brant Pitre. He is Catholic but a high church Anglican or an Orthodox can easily appreciate it. The book is absolutely eye-opening. 

The Eucharist is thoroughly Biblical. It also draws heavily on the culture of the Second Temple Period, which is alien to many contemporary Jews. 

For instance, did you know that, during the STP, the high priests would, on certain holidays, take out the Showbread, the Bread of Presence, and hold it up before the crowds of pilgrims, proclaiming, &quot;This is the love of your God.&quot; I kid you not.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Karen,</p>
<p>Why don&#8217;t you suggest that they simply illustrate the true parables of Christ? </p>
<p>Peggy,</p>
<p>If you are still in contact with that Jewish fellow, you might recommend, &#8220;Jesus and the Jewish Roots of the Eucharist&#8221; by Dr. Brant Pitre. He is Catholic but a high church Anglican or an Orthodox can easily appreciate it. The book is absolutely eye-opening. </p>
<p>The Eucharist is thoroughly Biblical. It also draws heavily on the culture of the Second Temple Period, which is alien to many contemporary Jews. </p>
<p>For instance, did you know that, during the STP, the high priests would, on certain holidays, take out the Showbread, the Bread of Presence, and hold it up before the crowds of pilgrims, proclaiming, &#8220;This is the love of your God.&#8221; I kid you not.</p>
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		<title>By: Andrew C</title>
		<link>http://glory2godforallthings.com/2012/04/18/to-know-what-you-cannot-know/#comment-56922</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew C</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Apr 2012 10:59:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://glory2godforallthings.com/?p=8615#comment-56922</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Karen,
Though from a Protestant background, I, too, find pictures like the ones you mention a problem. Though perhaps helpful, and not, in my view, altogether erroneous (sin does separate us from God, or at least impair our normal relationship with him: why else did Adam hide?), the pictures have come to take the place of the fuller picture - as is widely remarked in these pages. We replace, say, the atonement as an article of faith (&quot;for us men and for our salvation...&quot;) with a particular theory of it.

As for sinners earnestly seeking God, I find that apathy is more the order of the day: as John Betjeman (a poet much-loved in England) wrote:

Some know for all their lives that Christ is God,
Some start upon that arduous love affair
In clouds of doubt and argument; and some
(My closest friends) seem not to want to know His love -
And why this is I wish to God I knew.

In all of the &quot;Lost&quot; parables there is an obvious mapping between something lost (us) and something looking (God) - although I am sure we can see additional allegories too.

The problem Christians of any stripe face is to persuade anyone they are in need of anything and, apart from the Spirit, none can see that.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Karen,<br />
Though from a Protestant background, I, too, find pictures like the ones you mention a problem. Though perhaps helpful, and not, in my view, altogether erroneous (sin does separate us from God, or at least impair our normal relationship with him: why else did Adam hide?), the pictures have come to take the place of the fuller picture &#8211; as is widely remarked in these pages. We replace, say, the atonement as an article of faith (&#8220;for us men and for our salvation&#8230;&#8221;) with a particular theory of it.</p>
<p>As for sinners earnestly seeking God, I find that apathy is more the order of the day: as John Betjeman (a poet much-loved in England) wrote:</p>
<p>Some know for all their lives that Christ is God,<br />
Some start upon that arduous love affair<br />
In clouds of doubt and argument; and some<br />
(My closest friends) seem not to want to know His love -<br />
And why this is I wish to God I knew.</p>
<p>In all of the &#8220;Lost&#8221; parables there is an obvious mapping between something lost (us) and something looking (God) &#8211; although I am sure we can see additional allegories too.</p>
<p>The problem Christians of any stripe face is to persuade anyone they are in need of anything and, apart from the Spirit, none can see that.</p>
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		<title>By: simmmo</title>
		<link>http://glory2godforallthings.com/2012/04/18/to-know-what-you-cannot-know/#comment-56913</link>
		<dc:creator>simmmo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Apr 2012 03:44:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://glory2godforallthings.com/?p=8615#comment-56913</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[It seems that knowing what cannot be known is starting to get back in vogue. I was reading a few Economics articles recently  (if anyone knows anything about the way academic economics has gone over the last 30 years or so they&#039;d realise that if there was any class of persons who thought they knew it all it would be economists!) and currently we are writing papers entitled &quot;Time to Deal with the Pretense-of-Knowledge Syndrome&quot; and &quot;What can economists know?&quot;. The impact of economic theories that reduce human beings to &quot;homo-economicus&quot; (the scientific overtones of such technical language should be enough to demonstrate that economists have been fooling themselves about how much they can know about complex creatures like human beings for a long time) are far more pervasive than what normal people think. But finally even arrogant economists are asking themselves, can we really put a thing as complex as a human being into a nice little economic equation and predict the way society is going to behave based on this? I think the way economics has progressed over the last 30-40 years has mirrored Western theological developments from about the middle ages onwards. Taking after Islamic philosophers who attempted to do theology using Aristotelian logic, many of the influential Western theologians simply followed suit. Just as in economics, irrational behaviour of humans was simply assumed away, so in Western theology, mystery was marginalised. It&#039;s striking to reread the apostle Paul looking out for his references to mystery. It&#039;s a far more important theme in Paul than I had previously noticed. In fact I hadn&#039;t noticed mystery in Paul before. St Paul knew what can not be known. I think it&#039;s sometimes wiser to admit &quot;I simply don&#039;t know&quot; than to follow the modernist folly of pretending to know it all.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It seems that knowing what cannot be known is starting to get back in vogue. I was reading a few Economics articles recently  (if anyone knows anything about the way academic economics has gone over the last 30 years or so they&#8217;d realise that if there was any class of persons who thought they knew it all it would be economists!) and currently we are writing papers entitled &#8220;Time to Deal with the Pretense-of-Knowledge Syndrome&#8221; and &#8220;What can economists know?&#8221;. The impact of economic theories that reduce human beings to &#8220;homo-economicus&#8221; (the scientific overtones of such technical language should be enough to demonstrate that economists have been fooling themselves about how much they can know about complex creatures like human beings for a long time) are far more pervasive than what normal people think. But finally even arrogant economists are asking themselves, can we really put a thing as complex as a human being into a nice little economic equation and predict the way society is going to behave based on this? I think the way economics has progressed over the last 30-40 years has mirrored Western theological developments from about the middle ages onwards. Taking after Islamic philosophers who attempted to do theology using Aristotelian logic, many of the influential Western theologians simply followed suit. Just as in economics, irrational behaviour of humans was simply assumed away, so in Western theology, mystery was marginalised. It&#8217;s striking to reread the apostle Paul looking out for his references to mystery. It&#8217;s a far more important theme in Paul than I had previously noticed. In fact I hadn&#8217;t noticed mystery in Paul before. St Paul knew what can not be known. I think it&#8217;s sometimes wiser to admit &#8220;I simply don&#8217;t know&#8221; than to follow the modernist folly of pretending to know it all.</p>
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		<title>By: fatherstephen</title>
		<link>http://glory2godforallthings.com/2012/04/18/to-know-what-you-cannot-know/#comment-56910</link>
		<dc:creator>fatherstephen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Apr 2012 02:29:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://glory2godforallthings.com/?p=8615#comment-56910</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Karen,
Your instincts on these two stories are spot on, it seems to me. Particularly in that the gospel is the story of God looking for us, not us looking for Him. &quot;We love Him because He first loved us.&quot; (1 Jn. 4:19) We are not on the outside of heaven looking to get in. We live with heaven all around us (The Kingdom of God is at hand) and we refuse it.

&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;em&gt;Thou didst call us from nonbeing into being, and when we had fallen away, Thou didst raise us up again, and didst not cease to do all things until Thou hadst brought us up to heaven, and hadst bestowed upon us Thy kingdom which is to come.&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;

People have false images in their head because, forgetting the actual shape of the Biblical story, they have their own culturally driven (or culture-Church-driven) imagination. The illustrations work for them, because it is how they think. It is why I spend as much time as I do writing about images and metaphors (as well as questioning myself privately about my own images and metaphors). Such things govern how we read and shape the gospel, for good or ill.

Of course, on the topic of &quot;knowing God,&quot; there is always the danger that one comes to know a &quot;projection&quot; of God and not the true God. This requires that we be in lively contact with the Tradition, with those living the faith whose lives bear witness to their true faithfulness, etc. But an inward knowing is certainly promised to us in Christ, in the Tradition, and in the services of the Church and the lives of the saints. I expect it, and pursue it with the knowledge of that promise. 

I had a few years within the charismatic movement as a young man (17-20+). Coming out of that movement, I was deeply aware of spiritual delusion and deeply concerned not to be deluded again. It drew me deeper and deeper towards the Tradition, eventually to Orthodoxy itself. But the possibility of true knowledge of God was something I never renounced (nor have I needed to). I first read Lossky in my early 20&#039;s and was excited by what I read, though most of it was well beyond my understanding. That same hunger continues to this day, with the added motivation that having some taste of that Reality, I only want more. It is eternal life.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Karen,<br />
Your instincts on these two stories are spot on, it seems to me. Particularly in that the gospel is the story of God looking for us, not us looking for Him. &#8220;We love Him because He first loved us.&#8221; (1 Jn. 4:19) We are not on the outside of heaven looking to get in. We live with heaven all around us (The Kingdom of God is at hand) and we refuse it.</p>
<blockquote><p><em>Thou didst call us from nonbeing into being, and when we had fallen away, Thou didst raise us up again, and didst not cease to do all things until Thou hadst brought us up to heaven, and hadst bestowed upon us Thy kingdom which is to come.</em></p></blockquote>
<p>People have false images in their head because, forgetting the actual shape of the Biblical story, they have their own culturally driven (or culture-Church-driven) imagination. The illustrations work for them, because it is how they think. It is why I spend as much time as I do writing about images and metaphors (as well as questioning myself privately about my own images and metaphors). Such things govern how we read and shape the gospel, for good or ill.</p>
<p>Of course, on the topic of &#8220;knowing God,&#8221; there is always the danger that one comes to know a &#8220;projection&#8221; of God and not the true God. This requires that we be in lively contact with the Tradition, with those living the faith whose lives bear witness to their true faithfulness, etc. But an inward knowing is certainly promised to us in Christ, in the Tradition, and in the services of the Church and the lives of the saints. I expect it, and pursue it with the knowledge of that promise. </p>
<p>I had a few years within the charismatic movement as a young man (17-20+). Coming out of that movement, I was deeply aware of spiritual delusion and deeply concerned not to be deluded again. It drew me deeper and deeper towards the Tradition, eventually to Orthodoxy itself. But the possibility of true knowledge of God was something I never renounced (nor have I needed to). I first read Lossky in my early 20&#8242;s and was excited by what I read, though most of it was well beyond my understanding. That same hunger continues to this day, with the added motivation that having some taste of that Reality, I only want more. It is eternal life.</p>
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		<title>By: Karen</title>
		<link>http://glory2godforallthings.com/2012/04/18/to-know-what-you-cannot-know/#comment-56881</link>
		<dc:creator>Karen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 22 Apr 2012 20:01:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://glory2godforallthings.com/?p=8615#comment-56881</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Father, bless! With regard to &quot;knowing&quot; God would you offer a brief commentary (with your knowledge of the original Greek) on the meaning of 1 John 2:3--how it is we &quot;know&quot; that we &quot;know&quot; Him? I ask because my husband&#039;s Evangelical pastor is preaching a series through this epistle right now and covered this chapter today (but not to the satisfaction, admittedly, of my Orthodox sensibilities!), and his treatment of the &quot;knowledge&quot; of God, was that the rational informs and leads to the experiential, and to infer that it is not the other way around (at least in this context).

I&#039;m also struggling with the content of the children&#039;s curriculum on &quot;How to become a Christian&quot; from my daughter&#039;s 5th grade ss class at the same church. The first section on &quot;salvation&quot; (which session, blessedly, my daughter missed) follows the typical &quot;Four spiritual laws&quot; outline. Two illustrations and statements (on the first two pages) are already very problematic for me. The first on how sin separates us from God (because we are &quot;dirtied&quot; by our sin and God can&#039;t have anything to do with sin and thus, by extension, with the people dirtied by it!) also has the following illustration. There are two cliffs separated by a great gulf in the middle. On one side are people with their eyes trained over the gulf of separation looking toward the other cliff with anxious expressions on their faces. On the other cliff stands a big sign with the words &quot;God Perfect&quot; on it and an arrow pointing in the opposite direction of the people. 

Are we as sinful people really anxiously seeking God as the people on the cliff appear to be? Is God somewhere out of the picture and moving away from us to make sure He keeps well clear of our sin?

The second illustration is a story of &quot;The Muddy Girl&quot; who goes out plays in the mud and is stopped at the door by her father who forbids her to enter the house until he has first hosed off the mud. 

Is our sin really like mud in this sense? And is God like a fastidious parent more concerned about the cleanliness of his house than what the &quot;mud&quot; is doing to his daughter?

With regard to both of these illustrations, all I could think of was how when Adam and Eve sinned in the Garden, they went away and hid from God, while He came looking for them, and lovingly made them coverings from the skins of animals to clothe their shame and nakedness (a picture of the provisional nature--and the limitations--of the Old Covenant sacrificial system if ever there was one). The same with the Parables of the Lost Sheep, Lost Coin, and the Lost Son (Prodigal Son)! Top that off with the reality of the Gospel accounts of God entering our sin-sick world in the Person of His Son and being laid as a newborn, for want of a more appropriate place, in the feeding box of a dirty stable for animals, surrounded by mud, clay, straw, and the stink of animal urine and manure! That was only the beginning of the humiliations He endured for our sake. And Jesus makes it very clear that anyone who has seen Him has seen the Father also! How can modern Christians think that these modern illustrations are compatible with what the Gospel really teaches? It is beyond me!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Father, bless! With regard to &#8220;knowing&#8221; God would you offer a brief commentary (with your knowledge of the original Greek) on the meaning of 1 John 2:3&#8211;how it is we &#8220;know&#8221; that we &#8220;know&#8221; Him? I ask because my husband&#8217;s Evangelical pastor is preaching a series through this epistle right now and covered this chapter today (but not to the satisfaction, admittedly, of my Orthodox sensibilities!), and his treatment of the &#8220;knowledge&#8221; of God, was that the rational informs and leads to the experiential, and to infer that it is not the other way around (at least in this context).</p>
<p>I&#8217;m also struggling with the content of the children&#8217;s curriculum on &#8220;How to become a Christian&#8221; from my daughter&#8217;s 5th grade ss class at the same church. The first section on &#8220;salvation&#8221; (which session, blessedly, my daughter missed) follows the typical &#8220;Four spiritual laws&#8221; outline. Two illustrations and statements (on the first two pages) are already very problematic for me. The first on how sin separates us from God (because we are &#8220;dirtied&#8221; by our sin and God can&#8217;t have anything to do with sin and thus, by extension, with the people dirtied by it!) also has the following illustration. There are two cliffs separated by a great gulf in the middle. On one side are people with their eyes trained over the gulf of separation looking toward the other cliff with anxious expressions on their faces. On the other cliff stands a big sign with the words &#8220;God Perfect&#8221; on it and an arrow pointing in the opposite direction of the people. </p>
<p>Are we as sinful people really anxiously seeking God as the people on the cliff appear to be? Is God somewhere out of the picture and moving away from us to make sure He keeps well clear of our sin?</p>
<p>The second illustration is a story of &#8220;The Muddy Girl&#8221; who goes out plays in the mud and is stopped at the door by her father who forbids her to enter the house until he has first hosed off the mud. </p>
<p>Is our sin really like mud in this sense? And is God like a fastidious parent more concerned about the cleanliness of his house than what the &#8220;mud&#8221; is doing to his daughter?</p>
<p>With regard to both of these illustrations, all I could think of was how when Adam and Eve sinned in the Garden, they went away and hid from God, while He came looking for them, and lovingly made them coverings from the skins of animals to clothe their shame and nakedness (a picture of the provisional nature&#8211;and the limitations&#8211;of the Old Covenant sacrificial system if ever there was one). The same with the Parables of the Lost Sheep, Lost Coin, and the Lost Son (Prodigal Son)! Top that off with the reality of the Gospel accounts of God entering our sin-sick world in the Person of His Son and being laid as a newborn, for want of a more appropriate place, in the feeding box of a dirty stable for animals, surrounded by mud, clay, straw, and the stink of animal urine and manure! That was only the beginning of the humiliations He endured for our sake. And Jesus makes it very clear that anyone who has seen Him has seen the Father also! How can modern Christians think that these modern illustrations are compatible with what the Gospel really teaches? It is beyond me!</p>
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		<title>By: Anglican Peggy</title>
		<link>http://glory2godforallthings.com/2012/04/18/to-know-what-you-cannot-know/#comment-56862</link>
		<dc:creator>Anglican Peggy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 22 Apr 2012 05:35:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://glory2godforallthings.com/?p=8615#comment-56862</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[On second thought, I would like to amend something in my first comment. 

I made it seem like I was first arguing with a Messianic Jew by using the words Jewish believer. I should have said religious Jew or stridently Orthodox Jew. I don&#039;t want people going, huh??? when it comes to that part of my story :-)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>On second thought, I would like to amend something in my first comment. </p>
<p>I made it seem like I was first arguing with a Messianic Jew by using the words Jewish believer. I should have said religious Jew or stridently Orthodox Jew. I don&#8217;t want people going, huh??? when it comes to that part of my story <img src='http://glory2godforallthings.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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